9 ms·

The sad fact is that long as people are willing to put up with this nothing is going to change. The crazy rents and terrible commutes sound insane to anyone liv

• gresrun 8y ago
  I know I chose to move out here because it was the best career move I could make. Having a FANG company on my resume plus the ridiculous salary and equity while I'm here would be foolish to pass up.
  • thirduncle 8y ago
    the ridiculous salary and equity while I'm here would be foolish to pass up So - how much of the "ridiculous" salary is left after subtracting living costs and taxes, actually?
    • guiomie 8y ago
      Much more than other places in the US. I keep seeing this type of comment, do the math, 2-3X salary increase, rent 2X increase, but rent is only ~25% of your salary, cost of things around ~25% higher. You are much better of in Silicon Valley as a techy in general.
      • seanmcdirmid 8y ago
        Besides rent, are other things really 25% higher in the Bay Area? Taxes are a bit higher, but cars, computers are about the same, groceries can even be cheaper. A plane ticket to Tokyo is probably even cheaper than most places.
        • eecsninja 8y ago
          Hell, even rent is cheaper in Tokyo: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-francisco/tokyo/breakdown https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/san-fra...
      • nathan_long 8y ago
        Now factor in the fact that you spend 15 hours a week driving - not working, jogging, cooking, singing, or making friends. Factor in the gas and maintenance for your car and the medical costs to you for your sedentary time and to society for your exhaust.
        • kolpa 8y ago
          "driving" could be "riding a bus" aka "working at the office".
        • usaar333 8y ago
          Few programmers are doing that.. you can rent 3 bedroom homes for under $4k within 20 minute driving distance of any job. The super commuters tend to be lower paid workers.
      • softawre 8y ago
        Unless you want to have square footage and not have roommates.
    • ryanSrich 8y ago
      Average FANG salary is $200k with roughly another $200k in equity each year spread out over 4 years. So that's roughly $400k per year in total comp. Conservatively 40% of that is going to taxes, so take home is closer to $240,000. While $240,000 is a nice salary it's not even close to what you'd need to afford a house in SV. And that's just housing. All in all it feels like a bad deal.
      • tedsanders 8y ago
        Do you have a source for the average FANG salary being $200k cash plus $200k in equity? Glassdoor shows Google software engineers make a base of $127k cash plus $75k bonus and stock: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Google-Salaries-E9079.htm Senior software engineers make more, but there seem to be many fewer of them relative to software engineer.
      • rokhayakebe 8y ago
        While $240,000 is a nice salary it's not even close to what you'd need to afford a house in SV This cannot be correct. If you are taking home $20,000 a month and cannot have a house in SV the problem is not affordability but availability. Or what kind of house are you talking about.
      • kolpa 8y ago
        You can move out of SV when you want to buy a house.
      • jeffreyrogers 8y ago
        It can still make sense to live there while you're young, save a bunch, and then move to a lower cost of living area later. I know a few people who did this. Then you can buy a house in a great neighborhood in a smaller city closer to things you like doing. Because of compound growth saving as much as you can when you're young and have few obligations really adds up later in life.
    • tmh79 8y ago
      I make ~175k/year cash, and I'm able to put away about 60k/year in savings. If you add in the equity I'm receiving (currently illiquid, but company is one of the mega-corns), I'm able to save an additional 60-100k/year on top of savings from salary. I live a decent life, 2 annual international trips, own a car, lease a ski house with friends in the winter, if you make over 120k, life in the bay area is quite nice.
      • abritinthebay 8y ago
        You're putting $5k away every month when your take home pay is ~$8k a month? I assume you must live a VERY spartan life in the Bay. Basically pay your rent (which must be shared or very cheap for the Bay) and utilities and not do much else... I mean the average Bay area rent is more than the difference between your take home and your savings... edit: I'm using ADP's calculator, don't know why SmartAsset is different but ADP is pretty legit so I'm going to continue to lean towards those numbers.
        • kolpa 8y ago
          Take-home pay on $175K in CA is $10k/month, not $8k/month https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#RZ3V1bp566 https://smartasset.com/taxes/california-tax-calculator#RZ3V1... Sharing an apartment isn't "spartan", it's "normal"
          • stefano 8y ago
            Earning 10k/month after taxes and still having to share an apartment is not normal.
          • d1zzy 8y ago
            If you're single I can see the advantages (beyond the obvious financial savings) of sharing an apartment. Doesn't really work as a couple/family. I was saving much less per month because as a couple we rented our own single bedroom apartment and my SO doesn't work. However, we still managed to save enough in 5 years (while still not having sold most of the vested equity) to buy a house in the Bay Area. So I agree that the pay is worth the hassle, so far at least. I'm curious how much you spend for food monthly (including restaurants)? Somewhat surprisingly this is the highest cost for us, after rent/mortgage, and we do cook a lot at home (go out maybe twice a month).
    • seem_2211 8y ago
      A lot. My expenses (having moved from NZ) are probably 2-2.5x of what my friends back home pay - and I don't live a particularly frugal life. My income is 4-5x (probably even higher) what they make. Tech people on HN in the Bay Area talk about saving $25-50k / yr. The average household income in America is roughly $50k. *Caveat: I'm unmarried and don't have kids. I don't own a house yet. I think that might change the equation a bit.
  • eecsninja 8y ago
    I grew up in the Bay Area. Spent several years at a FAANG company. About 2/3 of the time, I lived with my parents. The remainder was with housemates. In my early 30s, I decided that I couldn't continue living with parents, while there wasn't any place in the BA that I cared to pay money to live in. Now I live in NYC, same salary, but finally have my own place that's not shared with others. I live in a 30th floor studio apartment in Manhattan, take the subway to work, and pay less rent than my friends in the Bay Area who live in 1-bed apartments.
    • abritinthebay 8y ago
      Average rent in NYC - $3,375 Average rent in SF - $3,558 I don't know your situation but NYC is basically in the same boat (just with a better rail system).
      • eecsninja 8y ago
        That's a coarse comparison. Most housing in the bay area is multi-room units. Even the relatively new apartments in North San Jose are mostly 2 bedrooms. If you're single and want your own place, there's very few studios and 1 bedroom apartments to go around. For a more precise comparison, see: https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/new-york-city/san-francisco/breakdown https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/new-yor... As of this writing, rent for a one bedroom apartment is 30% more in SF than in NYC. My rent is $2640. I know people in Pacifica, Palo Alto, and Mountain View paying anywhere from $2700 to $3200 for a 1 bedroom.
      • kolpa 8y ago
        Bay Area is a far more pleasant environment to live in than North Atlantic
        • eecsninja 8y ago
          I agree actually. I don't intend to stay here for the long term, but I don't plan to move back to the bay area anytime soon either. I already spent most of my life there.
• sampo 8y ago
  > it'll only stop when everyone says enough is enough and leaves Or, alternatively, when enough people start voting in politicians who would allow building lots of new homes in central locations. Manhattan has 3.9× the density of San Francisco. At Manhattan density, the City of San Francisco could house 2.5 million more people.
  • timr 8y ago
    This is such a tiresome argument. Even if you could suddenly build all of the housing required to reduce prices on a short timescale, you'd have to solve the infrastructural problems that come with it (roads and transit), and convince developers to build into a massive loss (i.e. I am a developer, and you expect me to build and finance at today's costs, and pay for it with tomorrow's lower rents). Construction is a solution that takes long amounts of time to find a lower equilibrium, because nobody knowingly finances real estate projects into a falling market. In contrast, companies can build branch offices quickly. Spread the love.
    • ummonk 8y ago
      Even with a massive drop in rents, rents would still more than cover development costs. The limiting factor isn't the cost to construct high density housing units - it's the difficulty of getting permission to build high density housing units.
      • x3n0ph3n3 8y ago
        The permission (via zoning and permitting) is part of the cost.
        • dctoedt 8y ago
          > The permission (via zoning and permitting) is part of the cost. But if the gatekeepers aren't willing to grant permission, then that cost is ∞
        • ummonk 8y ago
• jarjoura 8y ago
  Very few places on the planet are as temperate and offer so many options to escape into nature as the Bay Area. I agree that something has to change, but trying to convince people that the only answer is to move away is a non-starter for the majority of the population, especially those who want to live here.
  • st26 8y ago
    The weather is nice, but nature is not really all that close. Sure, there's worse places. But growing up there I thought we had it good on the nature front, while really it was just the koolaid.
    • usaar333 8y ago
      I guess it matters what you mean by close. I can get to a redwood Forest in a 25 minute drive from SF, which I consider pretty good for a large urban area.. I agree other, smaller cities have much closer nature.
  • hesdeadjim 8y ago
    If they tried Colorado they’d change their mind quick. I always thought I’d end up in the valley, but after ten years here and seeing how bad the Bay Area has gotten, there isn’t enough money to convince me to make the switch.
    • jarjoura 8y ago
      True, Colorado has some gorgeous backdrops, but then again, you'd also have to be into 1/2 a year of intense snowy winters.
      • hesdeadjim 8y ago
        Actually we really don't get that much snow. In Boulder January and February are cold and snow can stick around for a week or two. But no joke, it can be sunny and 60 a day after a snowstorm. Now go up into the mountains instead of the foothills, yea, you're gonna get that winter you're talking about.
• jwilliams 8y ago
  > It's not an issue of social mobility either, since people living in the bay area are some of the most socially mobile workforce there is. The article focuses on non-tech workers. Who may not be socially mobile. These areas need non-tech workers just as they need tech-workers. It's tough to have teachers work and live in Sunnyvale, where the median house price is pushing $2M. Many of your Lyft and Uber drivers will be coming in from 90+ minute commutes.
• beamatronic 8y ago
  Isn’t there a saying in economics: “That which cannot continue, will stop.”
• slothario 8y ago
  Or enough people never move there. I recommend every CS graduate move to a city like Austin. Austin is a great city at a reasonable cost-of-living. I don't see why you'd want to start a family and set up roots in a place where property values will eat you alive. You can have a similar programming career in a place where you can actually afford a decent house on a junior dev salary. Personally, I graduated from a top CS school and I'm in Houston (due to family reasons). I do not envy my peers who went to Silicon Valley.