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The crux of the issue isn't mentioned until the very last paragraphs of the article: "One particular concern is cryptocurrency mining—a processor and electrici
by mg74 8y ago
The crux of the issue isn't mentioned until the very last paragraphs of the article:
"One particular concern is cryptocurrency mining—a processor and electricity-intensive computing process for generating currencies such as bitcoin. The process accounts for about 90% of Iceland’s data center industry in terms of electricity consumed"
If these data centers where actually being utilised for something useful then people would be happier about this. But no, it is just some speculators mining for crypto.
- mathgenius 8y agoBut these are eco-friendly bitcoins. In china they burn coal for this. So I think this is definitely a good thing.
- PakG1 8y agoMining bitcoin in Iceland hasn't stopped bitcoin mining in China with coal though, has it? So what does that matter?
- leoc 8y agoAssuming that higher supply of Bitcoin means lower price (a dangerous assumption for anything with such a heavily speculation-driven price, I know) then that lower price should presumably mean lower production of Bitcoin in China, maybe only modestly lower.
- wolco 8y agoWhat happens is the difficulity rate increases and the power required to mine the next coin increases and China's miners requires more coal. Iceland's clean energy has a dirty by-product.
- Someone 8y agoNot necessarily. If clean energy in Iceland is cheaper than coal in China and can grow indefinitely, increasing the difficulty may push the Chinese miners out of the market, stopping all coal-using crypto-currency mining.
- coconutrandom 8y agoNot sure why they downvoted this. This is an accurate comment.
- elago 8y ago"and can grow indefinitely" It's accurate only given this flawed assumption.
- loeg 8y agoIt's accurate if both of its big assumptions are true, which seems unlikely given how inexpensive coal is and the relative levels of corruption and tolerance for environmental damage between China and Iceland.
- dredmorbius 8y agoPresuming the antecedant.
- mg74 8y agoClean energy can not grow indefinitely in Iceland, there is only so much water falling so many meters. There may be other methods involving steam and earth warmth that Iceland may be uniquely competitive in, but that is going to require the invention of new technologies and processes.
- joshlemer 8y agoWell at the same time it out competes other miners, so may reduce greenhouse gas emissions on net.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoMaybe this is why we haven’t heard from advanced alien civilisations: they’ve all extinguished their suns in an effort to mine the next block, thereby rapidly rendering their whole civilisation extinguished. Of course, any sufficiently advanced civilisation that can build a Contraption to extract all the energy from s star should also be advanced enough to build a computer model complex enough to reveal the secrets of warp drive, but didn’t because they were too busy mining crypto.
- raverbashing 8y agoBut it's not higher supply, since the network enforces a limit of 1 block every 10 min. Bitcoin does not scale, it's just people reaching for a smaller part of the pie that, for pretty purely speculative reasons, still cost a lot.
- riantogo 8y agoIt is like people around the world paying for steam in Iceland.
- mg74 8y agoYou are assuming that mining for crypto is a useful thing to begin with. Not everyone agrees with you. And many here in Iceland are not enamoured with the idea that we should build more damns and loose more waterfalls so some people can get rich off speculation. Even if it is more eco friendly than people getting rich off speculation in China.
- charlesdm 8y agoYou are assuming people will stop mining if this is banned in Iceland. That's just not how it works. Feel free to like or dislike cryptocurrency mining (I too believe it to be a waste of energy -- but that's not the point), but it's likely not going away. So you want the "green" efforts to be as cheap and efficient as possible, if you want to outcompete the less eco friendly alternatives.
- mg74 8y agoJudging from your comment Im assuming you do not live in Iceland, apologies if Im wrong. The reality is that there are only a handful of energy providers in Iceland capable of providing the energy at this scale, Landsvirkjun being the largest (by far). These companies are either government owned or very sensitive to political realities, and will stop selling energy to mining centers if the pressure becomes strong enough.
- charlesdm 8y agoYou're right, I do not. Sure, but these companies would just relocate again? I don't see how that fixes things at the global level (aside from them leaving Iceland and relocating somewhere else, of course). Now they might at least be paying taxes and generating some jobs. If it wasn't used for mining, where would the excess power go?
- SiempreViernes 8y agoWhy would bitcoin be harder to ban than filamentary lightbulbs? You think they can lobby harder than the transport industry that would gain from the distraction?
- wklauss 8y ago> But these are eco-friendly bitcoins. In china they burn coal for this. So I think this is definitely a good thing. I'm hoping this is sarcasm, but in case it's not the cost of opportunity here is the main issue. Imagine all that computer power applied to protein folding simulation, to name a simple, useful-for-everyone task.
- yason 8y agoThe comment seemed pragmatic. Coins will be mined regardless of whether it makes sense: it's better if it's done more ecologically as long as coins will be mined.
- SiempreViernes 8y agoIf individuals rather spend their money on mining coins that's fine, but building an entire industry spending the finite resources of the Earth dedicated to breaking pointless hashes seems pretty idiotic from a pure survival standpoint.
- Bizarro 8y agoYou have a confused view of the realities of "individuals" vs "industry".
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoYou would think someone would have by now invented a crypto currency who’s token is a correctly folded protein. There’s probably a rule, or law, or some such, that predicts if I do an internet search for this I will find it is already a thing.
- bostik 8y agoI saw a talk by researcher in the UK who has been toying around with the concept of cryptocurrencies with useful proof-of-work schemes. Mirror of Faye's talk slides here: https://yadi.sk/d/8ezgDZvO3PLZ6C https://yadi.sk/d/8ezgDZvO3PLZ6C
- onetimemanytime 8y agoYOU think that, not Icelanders. Hydropower has its major issues and thermal also has its own. So this is the classic "not in my backyard." Also, what good is it if an industry builds up, cities spring up as a results...and then it collapses?
- duxup 8y agoAll their eggs in one basket. That is potentially a recipe for a sudden disaster.
- PakG1 8y agoIf bitcoin dies, I imagine all that datacenter capacity can easily be reapplied to future AI and other needs though.
- loeg 8y agoAre you familiar with what happens to prices when supply floods the market? :-)
- icebraining 8y agoI doubt Iceland can "flood" the DC market.
- loeg 8y agoIn this particular case, Iceland is concerned about their domestic DC market supply flooding local demand if the BTC mining dries up. There are still good reasons to host in Iceland — geothermal power, no or less need to run expensive AC units, maybe low enough latency to European sites — but 90% of their current consumption is BTC miners.
- icebraining 8y agoRight, but I don't see why local demand is so important, a DC can sell its services globally.
- loeg 8y ago> globally Yes and no :-). Ignoring other factors, a DC's services are on average less valuable the higher the latency. That restricts Iceland's primary market to Europe (and maybe east-coast North America).
- dayaz36 8y agoSeriously...Not sure why the article is going after the "tech industry" as a whole when the entire article should have been about cryptocurrency mining
- Sir_Substance 8y agoIf you turned off Iceland's aluminum smelting, it would have an ~35% energy surplus. You can't really send it anywhere though, because undersea power cables have horrible transmission losses. Crypto is as good a use as any for the spare power, and arguably cleaner than importing bauxite on oil-powered ships, smelting it and shipping back the resulting aluminum, which is how the surplus is currently used. Iceland has big ecological problems, but power usage isn't one of them. If you want to fret about Icelands environment, for gods sake get over here and help us plant trees before the last of the topsoil blows away.
- mg74 8y agoIm already here. And the problems with smelting dont negate the idiocy (imho) of mining.
- Sir_Substance 8y ago>And the problems with smelting dont negate the idiocy (imho) of mining. Except that in Iceland, crypto mining could literally, and I use the word literally in the classical and correct sense, actually negate the problems of smelting. If crypto miners out-bid aluminium smelters on power prices, the smelting will leave Iceland and move closer to the source of the ore without any net loss in income to the Icelandic economy. The economy of aluminium in Iceland /is/ the economy of selling electricity to foreigners. It generates some dock work as well, but the bauxite is here for the power prices, not the light touch of the local forklift drivers. If we can sell that electricity without shipping things, that's obviously better. You're welcome to think that's idiocy if you like, I guess.
- ufo 8y agoIt can be a net loss to the Icelandic economy if the crypto bubble bursts and Iceland is left with no miners and no smelters
- Sir_Substance 8y ago
- trisimix 8y agoFucking bitcoin. Do something useful with your computing power.