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The best "work environment" tech job I ever had was at an investment bank. Didn't disrupt anything (quite the opposite) but got great experience with databases,

The best "work environment" tech job I ever had was at an investment bank. Didn't disrupt anything (quite the opposite) but got great experience with databases, unix, C, scripting, working with internal clients, determining requirements, managing projects, etc. 9:00 - 4:30 daily hours, no nights, no weekends. Full benefits, good salary, good yearly bonus, quiet office, great people who were there to get a job done and then go home. Had to wear a shirt and tie but that's not the worst thing in the world.

SilasX 9y ago
Interesting! How would you recommend someone transition from a startup-y job to one of those? Anything they look for in terms of qualifications?
- user5994461 9y ago
  They're large companies recruiting pretty much in all area of technologies. If you have experience in something, you should be able to get an introduction through a recruiter or find an existing employee to reference you. The only trouble is that finance is only in the NYC area. You can't be there if you are in the valley.
  - jonhendry18 9y ago
    "The only trouble is that finance is only in the NYC area. You can't be there if you are in the valley." There used to be some in Chicago. Bank of America, Swiss Bank, First Chicago. Swiss Bank is now UBS and I don't know where they do their trading system development. First Chicago got absorbed by JP Morgan Chase. B of A might still do some trading development there, but I have no idea. Back in the 90s Swiss Bank and First Chicago used NeXT for trading apps, and Swiss Bank had Symbolics machines here and there.
- cocoablazing 9y ago
  Apply. I would like nothing more than a flow of applications from smart software engineers with BSs over scientists exiting of postdocing and MCFs. The skill I look for over all others is an understanding of the standard principles of software design, and principles of testing is a bonus. I want to see that the candidate is honestly interested in our language to the extent that they are familiar with the obvious pitfalls of the standard language features. Candidates who prepared by writing option pricers and passing leetcode challenges won't necessarily understand any of these, because they are simply writing functions. I assume that anyone who got through a rigorous engineering undergrad has the mathematical preparation to perform as a quantitative developer. This won't be true for all roles, but it's true for all of the QD roles that I have contact with at BB. If you are interested in a dev role in finance, and see requirements for basic financial knowledge, risk, etc. -- as long as the requirement isn't quite specific, such as experience pricing specific option types, pricing complex products, or with a specific product, I would just ignore it and apply. Many of these concepts are quite simple compared to what SEs are trained to model and implement, and the people on the team who need help know that. I've seen GPU and C++ skills requested for a Pandas shop. Just apply. I think hiring managers and HR think they will attract better candidates by adding these things, but it is counterproductive. From what I can tell from salary surveys, we pay an entry-level dev better than many others. >150 guaranteed all-in first year, and better than that afterwards if you just do your job. Promotion path is good because modern skills are in dire need.
latencyloser 9y ago
I'm gonna second this. Started my career as a software dev at a commodities exchange. Pay was excellent for the area I lived in and my experience level, 9-5 was 100% standard and enforced by the team culture, on-call was nonexistent as dedicated support people handled that, bonus was better than the ones I got while working at Microsoft, and got to work with some of the best software engineers I've ever met. Incredible job security, no one got let go or put on any kind of PIP as everyone was pretty self motivated--even if they weren't the best. All in all, I would highly recommend this as a good career path. I left because it was my first job out of college and I wanted to see what else was out in the world. But it stays a fond memory of a solid job.
nikanj 9y ago
There's a very strong correlation "you have to dress like an adult", and "you will be treated like an adult". Yes, a lot of adults wear sweatshirts and hoodies now. However, if you wore a shirt and tie to a high school, they would make fun of you for dressing up like your dad. We have collectively agreed on a "grown-up" attire.
- lazyasciiart 9y ago
  In other countries, it's very common for boys to wear a shirt and tie to school. Even here it's part of the uniform at many private schools and some charter schools, and it's the norm for children at formal events. It's not 'grown-up' attire, it's 'serious' attire.
- tzakrajs 9y ago
  The zeitgeist in tech and in culture generally is a moving target. Look at dandyism in the 19th century, no one would argue that is how grown-ups dress today.
  - reaperducer 9y ago
    Well, there is Connecticut.
- goatherders 9y ago
  I wore a tie to school every day in high school. Then I did it again at a well know startup. In both instances someone pulled me aside to tell me "keep dressing like that and you're going to stand out." Yes.
  - hansthehorse 9y ago
    I attended catholic high school in nyc from 1965 to 69 and we wore a sport coat and tie with dress slacks. Hair length inspections were conducted. It didn't kill anyone as far as I know.
    - 9y ago
avoutthere 9y ago
> got great experience... Which, of course, tech companies don't value at all. From what I've seen, they much prefer to hire a fresh grad over somebody with a long record of proven performance. So, I agree that one should seek work in tech at a non-tech company.
wink 9y ago
That might be the difference between "investment bank" and "bank" because I've heard stories about near-unhirable people who've been toiling away with Java 1.5 (as late as 2016) at (German) banks. They hated it, wanted to get out, but they'd lost touch with current tech unless they managed to sneak in some off-work hours with non-ancient stuff :/
- Hallucinaut 9y ago
  Working at a (German) investment bank still using Java 6 and Perl 5 extensively in 2018, I can assure you it's not just retail banks. Legacy technology mires are everywhere in the enterprise world and often the premia to work in those places is precisely for dealing with this kind of old technology and decades of technical debt. In any case the same bank with Blockchain and big data lakes will also be working with mainframes and COBOL, so generalisations about technology aren't particularly useful when it comes to organisations that are so large.

SilasX 9y ago

Interesting! How would you recommend someone transition from a startup-y job to one of those? Anything they look for in terms of qualifications?

user5994461 9y ago
They're large companies recruiting pretty much in all area of technologies. If you have experience in something, you should be able to get an introduction through a recruiter or find an existing employee to reference you. The only trouble is that finance is only in the NYC area. You can't be there if you are in the valley.
- jonhendry18 9y ago
  "The only trouble is that finance is only in the NYC area. You can't be there if you are in the valley." There used to be some in Chicago. Bank of America, Swiss Bank, First Chicago. Swiss Bank is now UBS and I don't know where they do their trading system development. First Chicago got absorbed by JP Morgan Chase. B of A might still do some trading development there, but I have no idea. Back in the 90s Swiss Bank and First Chicago used NeXT for trading apps, and Swiss Bank had Symbolics machines here and there.
cocoablazing 9y ago
Apply. I would like nothing more than a flow of applications from smart software engineers with BSs over scientists exiting of postdocing and MCFs. The skill I look for over all others is an understanding of the standard principles of software design, and principles of testing is a bonus. I want to see that the candidate is honestly interested in our language to the extent that they are familiar with the obvious pitfalls of the standard language features. Candidates who prepared by writing option pricers and passing leetcode challenges won't necessarily understand any of these, because they are simply writing functions. I assume that anyone who got through a rigorous engineering undergrad has the mathematical preparation to perform as a quantitative developer. This won't be true for all roles, but it's true for all of the QD roles that I have contact with at BB. If you are interested in a dev role in finance, and see requirements for basic financial knowledge, risk, etc. -- as long as the requirement isn't quite specific, such as experience pricing specific option types, pricing complex products, or with a specific product, I would just ignore it and apply. Many of these concepts are quite simple compared to what SEs are trained to model and implement, and the people on the team who need help know that. I've seen GPU and C++ skills requested for a Pandas shop. Just apply. I think hiring managers and HR think they will attract better candidates by adding these things, but it is counterproductive. From what I can tell from salary surveys, we pay an entry-level dev better than many others. >150 guaranteed all-in first year, and better than that afterwards if you just do your job. Promotion path is good because modern skills are in dire need.

latencyloser 9y ago

I'm gonna second this. Started my career as a software dev at a commodities exchange. Pay was excellent for the area I lived in and my experience level, 9-5 was 100% standard and enforced by the team culture, on-call was nonexistent as dedicated support people handled that, bonus was better than the ones I got while working at Microsoft, and got to work with some of the best software engineers I've ever met. Incredible job security, no one got let go or put on any kind of PIP as everyone was pretty self motivated--even if they weren't the best. All in all, I would highly recommend this as a good career path. I left because it was my first job out of college and I wanted to see what else was out in the world. But it stays a fond memory of a solid job.

nikanj 9y ago

There's a very strong correlation "you have to dress like an adult", and "you will be treated like an adult". Yes, a lot of adults wear sweatshirts and hoodies now. However, if you wore a shirt and tie to a high school, they would make fun of you for dressing up like your dad. We have collectively agreed on a "grown-up" attire.

lazyasciiart 9y ago
In other countries, it's very common for boys to wear a shirt and tie to school. Even here it's part of the uniform at many private schools and some charter schools, and it's the norm for children at formal events. It's not 'grown-up' attire, it's 'serious' attire.
tzakrajs 9y ago
The zeitgeist in tech and in culture generally is a moving target. Look at dandyism in the 19th century, no one would argue that is how grown-ups dress today.
- reaperducer 9y ago
  Well, there is Connecticut.
goatherders 9y ago
I wore a tie to school every day in high school. Then I did it again at a well know startup. In both instances someone pulled me aside to tell me "keep dressing like that and you're going to stand out." Yes.
- hansthehorse 9y ago
  I attended catholic high school in nyc from 1965 to 69 and we wore a sport coat and tie with dress slacks. Hair length inspections were conducted. It didn't kill anyone as far as I know.
  - 9y ago

avoutthere 9y ago

> got great experience... Which, of course, tech companies don't value at all. From what I've seen, they much prefer to hire a fresh grad over somebody with a long record of proven performance. So, I agree that one should seek work in tech at a non-tech company.

wink 9y ago

That might be the difference between "investment bank" and "bank" because I've heard stories about near-unhirable people who've been toiling away with Java 1.5 (as late as 2016) at (German) banks. They hated it, wanted to get out, but they'd lost touch with current tech unless they managed to sneak in some off-work hours with non-ancient stuff :/

Hallucinaut 9y ago
Working at a (German) investment bank still using Java 6 and Perl 5 extensively in 2018, I can assure you it's not just retail banks. Legacy technology mires are everywhere in the enterprise world and often the premia to work in those places is precisely for dealing with this kind of old technology and decades of technical debt. In any case the same bank with Blockchain and big data lakes will also be working with mainframes and COBOL, so generalisations about technology aren't particularly useful when it comes to organisations that are so large.