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Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost

Real talk? I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Some of the best career advice I've ever gleaned is to work on something that visibly makes money for the company. I get to do that every day at my tech company. I don't know that I could say that if I worked in a technical capacity in another industry.

Clubber 9y ago
>And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Only by beancounters, and if you take it away and go back to paper, they'll quickly change their mind.
- carlosdp 9y ago
  Yea, they don't generally "go back to paper", they outsource overseas...
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Hah, in my experience with companies using cheap developers overseas, going back to paper might be better. Good developers cost a lot no matter where they hang their hat.
ams6110 9y ago
The best "work environment" tech job I ever had was at an investment bank. Didn't disrupt anything (quite the opposite) but got great experience with databases, unix, C, scripting, working with internal clients, determining requirements, managing projects, etc. 9:00 - 4:30 daily hours, no nights, no weekends. Full benefits, good salary, good yearly bonus, quiet office, great people who were there to get a job done and then go home. Had to wear a shirt and tie but that's not the worst thing in the world.
- SilasX 9y ago
  Interesting! How would you recommend someone transition from a startup-y job to one of those? Anything they look for in terms of qualifications?
  - user5994461 9y ago
    They're large companies recruiting pretty much in all area of technologies. If you have experience in something, you should be able to get an introduction through a recruiter or find an existing employee to reference you. The only trouble is that finance is only in the NYC area. You can't be there if you are in the valley.
    - jonhendry18 9y ago
      "The only trouble is that finance is only in the NYC area. You can't be there if you are in the valley." There used to be some in Chicago. Bank of America, Swiss Bank, First Chicago. Swiss Bank is now UBS and I don't know where they do their trading system development. First Chicago got absorbed by JP Morgan Chase. B of A might still do some trading development there, but I have no idea. Back in the 90s Swiss Bank and First Chicago used NeXT for trading apps, and Swiss Bank had Symbolics machines here and there.
  - cocoablazing 9y ago
    Apply. I would like nothing more than a flow of applications from smart software engineers with BSs over scientists exiting of postdocing and MCFs. The skill I look for over all others is an understanding of the standard principles of software design, and principles of testing is a bonus. I want to see that the candidate is honestly interested in our language to the extent that they are familiar with the obvious pitfalls of the standard language features. Candidates who prepared by writing option pricers and passing leetcode challenges won't necessarily understand any of these, because they are simply writing functions. I assume that anyone who got through a rigorous engineering undergrad has the mathematical preparation to perform as a quantitative developer. This won't be true for all roles, but it's true for all of the QD roles that I have contact with at BB. If you are interested in a dev role in finance, and see requirements for basic financial knowledge, risk, etc. -- as long as the requirement isn't quite specific, such as experience pricing specific option types, pricing complex products, or with a specific product, I would just ignore it and apply. Many of these concepts are quite simple compared to what SEs are trained to model and implement, and the people on the team who need help know that. I've seen GPU and C++ skills requested for a Pandas shop. Just apply. I think hiring managers and HR think they will attract better candidates by adding these things, but it is counterproductive. From what I can tell from salary surveys, we pay an entry-level dev better than many others. >150 guaranteed all-in first year, and better than that afterwards if you just do your job. Promotion path is good because modern skills are in dire need.
reaperducer 9y ago
> I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. Depends on the company. Where I am, IT is in charge of maintaining the computers and networks so that the software developers can develop software in and for other departments.
- aje403 9y ago
  No, that's nearly every company. But if there's 10 software engineers working with 50 MBA's who drive the business, none of them can tell the difference and treat you as such, which happens more often than not outside of a tech company. They are the ones making the company money, and you are the programmer doing that "easy programming stuff for IT nerds". It's not that rare of a situation
neurobashing 9y ago
Real talk? There is nothing wrong with being in IT. Imagine if someone said "I would be concerned I'd be seen as a carpenter and not a woodworking artisan". You're a carpenter. You nail boards together to serve the business interests of the company. Even if the boards are SQL queries or ReactJS or whatever. Companies need tech. You can bring value by making everyone's jobs better with your technology - sand off those rough edges on everyone's workflows. Demonstrate your value.
- retbull 9y ago
  IT fixes peoples computers. Software Developers don't do that. We aren't Network Admins, we don't know how to set up or fix AD and we don't manage hardware. IT is a different field. I write software to process data and mostly I don't interact with hardware or troubleshooting arbitrary software directly. If I am offering support I am a level above IT. I understand that IT needs to be done but it is a very different job and should be treated that way.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    That definition morphs by time and company. At the last place I worked the IT department was the devs, dbas, net admins, and help desk.
    - ams6110 9y ago
      This is the case at every non-tech company I've worked at. It's (mostly) the tech companies that segregate IT as a lower-status function.
      - Viliam1234 9y ago
        It can happen either way. I worked in a tech startup, where everyone did everything, and where doing everything was considered high-status: it meant you were competent at everything. Or perhaps the other way round: trying to avoid any computer-related task, for whatever reason, was perceived as an admission of incompetence, therefore low-status. (I didn't agree with that philosophy. I am humble enough to admit that I am not an expert at something, e.g. setting up printers; and lazy enough that I want to avoid such work if I can.) I also worked in a non-tech company with sufficiently large internal software development department, where as a programmer I focused on developing software; and if any part of the technical infrastructure stopped working, I just called the internal tech support.
spelunker 9y ago
I've worked at a non-tech company as a software developer. At that place the department (we were rolled in with IT) was viewed as just another cost center. It's not great.
snowwrestler 9y ago
Many companies these days make a distinction between IT, digital, and product. IT runs the network, phones, issues and fixes laptops, maybe provides servers, often is in charge of information security. May own the financial and business intelligence technologies. Unless it's a very enlightened org, this is often the "cost center" team. Digital talks to the world in a modern way--runs the websites, blogs, social media channels, paid digital ads, etc. Often housed within a larger communications and/or marketing division. Technically a cost center but the visibility makes up for it in the eyes of executives. Product builds the technology that makes money. This would be like the e-commerce platform, ad network, mobile apps, etc. Executives value things that make money. Often, all three groups need developers. The tools and roles may differ, but you can be a developer in a major company without feeling "stuck in IT."
rdiddly 9y ago
The solution to the first point is to go to a place that already has an IT department. The second (making a bottom-line impact) is probably a non-issue. If it's not a tech company, that means they are likely failing to use tech fully, in places that really could benefit from it. Automate stuff that needs it, and quantify the time saved as: (time it took before - time it takes now) * number of times each person has to do it per week * number of people * what those people get paid / what you get paid = time T you saved in a week, in terms of your own hours. Each time you do something, add its T value to a running total. Likely an hour here, an hour there. Eventually it hits 40 and you and the managers can clearly see that your employment is paying for itself. Keep going and you're making them money.
sudhirj 9y ago
This isn’t true any more with software eating the world. I work in movie distribution for instance, which was traditionally sending reels of film, but is now all RSA, certificates, HSMs, remote device management, logistics, Analytics, ticketing, databases and distributed computing. The software team gets pretty much the same treatment as everyone else, but everyone knows it’s the future of the company and sets a pretty high bar.
- sudhirj 9y ago
  Speaking of which, our interview process is to ask you to solve a challenge on Github, but you’re free to keep it open source as an indicator of your skills. And it’s not work for us, these are obviously toy / proof of concept problems that we solved ages ago.
jcims 9y ago
Most larger companies have clearly defined boundaries between IT and software development. And with the push towards automation and security at every layer of the stack, even IT has a growing role for software architecture and development skills.
ubermonkey 9y ago
Yeah, NEVER be overhead if you can avoid it.

Clubber 9y ago

>And the conventional wisdom goes that IT is a cost center. Only by beancounters, and if you take it away and go back to paper, they'll quickly change their mind.

carlosdp 9y ago
Yea, they don't generally "go back to paper", they outsource overseas...
- Clubber 9y ago
  Hah, in my experience with companies using cheap developers overseas, going back to paper might be better. Good developers cost a lot no matter where they hang their hat.

ams6110 9y ago

The best "work environment" tech job I ever had was at an investment bank. Didn't disrupt anything (quite the opposite) but got great experience with databases, unix, C, scripting, working with internal clients, determining requirements, managing projects, etc. 9:00 - 4:30 daily hours, no nights, no weekends. Full benefits, good salary, good yearly bonus, quiet office, great people who were there to get a job done and then go home. Had to wear a shirt and tie but that's not the worst thing in the world.

SilasX 9y ago
Interesting! How would you recommend someone transition from a startup-y job to one of those? Anything they look for in terms of qualifications?
- user5994461 9y ago
  They're large companies recruiting pretty much in all area of technologies. If you have experience in something, you should be able to get an introduction through a recruiter or find an existing employee to reference you. The only trouble is that finance is only in the NYC area. You can't be there if you are in the valley.
  - jonhendry18 9y ago
    "The only trouble is that finance is only in the NYC area. You can't be there if you are in the valley." There used to be some in Chicago. Bank of America, Swiss Bank, First Chicago. Swiss Bank is now UBS and I don't know where they do their trading system development. First Chicago got absorbed by JP Morgan Chase. B of A might still do some trading development there, but I have no idea. Back in the 90s Swiss Bank and First Chicago used NeXT for trading apps, and Swiss Bank had Symbolics machines here and there.
- cocoablazing 9y ago
  Apply. I would like nothing more than a flow of applications from smart software engineers with BSs over scientists exiting of postdocing and MCFs. The skill I look for over all others is an understanding of the standard principles of software design, and principles of testing is a bonus. I want to see that the candidate is honestly interested in our language to the extent that they are familiar with the obvious pitfalls of the standard language features. Candidates who prepared by writing option pricers and passing leetcode challenges won't necessarily understand any of these, because they are simply writing functions. I assume that anyone who got through a rigorous engineering undergrad has the mathematical preparation to perform as a quantitative developer. This won't be true for all roles, but it's true for all of the QD roles that I have contact with at BB. If you are interested in a dev role in finance, and see requirements for basic financial knowledge, risk, etc. -- as long as the requirement isn't quite specific, such as experience pricing specific option types, pricing complex products, or with a specific product, I would just ignore it and apply. Many of these concepts are quite simple compared to what SEs are trained to model and implement, and the people on the team who need help know that. I've seen GPU and C++ skills requested for a Pandas shop. Just apply. I think hiring managers and HR think they will attract better candidates by adding these things, but it is counterproductive. From what I can tell from salary surveys, we pay an entry-level dev better than many others. >150 guaranteed all-in first year, and better than that afterwards if you just do your job. Promotion path is good because modern skills are in dire need.

reaperducer 9y ago

> I'd be concerned that, at a non-tech company, I'd be seen as a IT rather than a software engineer. Depends on the company. Where I am, IT is in charge of maintaining the computers and networks so that the software developers can develop software in and for other departments.

aje403 9y ago
No, that's nearly every company. But if there's 10 software engineers working with 50 MBA's who drive the business, none of them can tell the difference and treat you as such, which happens more often than not outside of a tech company. They are the ones making the company money, and you are the programmer doing that "easy programming stuff for IT nerds". It's not that rare of a situation

neurobashing 9y ago

Real talk? There is nothing wrong with being in IT. Imagine if someone said "I would be concerned I'd be seen as a carpenter and not a woodworking artisan". You're a carpenter. You nail boards together to serve the business interests of the company. Even if the boards are SQL queries or ReactJS or whatever. Companies need tech. You can bring value by making everyone's jobs better with your technology - sand off those rough edges on everyone's workflows. Demonstrate your value.

retbull 9y ago
IT fixes peoples computers. Software Developers don't do that. We aren't Network Admins, we don't know how to set up or fix AD and we don't manage hardware. IT is a different field. I write software to process data and mostly I don't interact with hardware or troubleshooting arbitrary software directly. If I am offering support I am a level above IT. I understand that IT needs to be done but it is a very different job and should be treated that way.
- Clubber 9y ago
  That definition morphs by time and company. At the last place I worked the IT department was the devs, dbas, net admins, and help desk.
  - ams6110 9y ago
    This is the case at every non-tech company I've worked at. It's (mostly) the tech companies that segregate IT as a lower-status function.
    - Viliam1234 9y ago
      It can happen either way. I worked in a tech startup, where everyone did everything, and where doing everything was considered high-status: it meant you were competent at everything. Or perhaps the other way round: trying to avoid any computer-related task, for whatever reason, was perceived as an admission of incompetence, therefore low-status. (I didn't agree with that philosophy. I am humble enough to admit that I am not an expert at something, e.g. setting up printers; and lazy enough that I want to avoid such work if I can.) I also worked in a non-tech company with sufficiently large internal software development department, where as a programmer I focused on developing software; and if any part of the technical infrastructure stopped working, I just called the internal tech support.

spelunker 9y ago

I've worked at a non-tech company as a software developer. At that place the department (we were rolled in with IT) was viewed as just another cost center. It's not great.

snowwrestler 9y ago

Many companies these days make a distinction between IT, digital, and product. IT runs the network, phones, issues and fixes laptops, maybe provides servers, often is in charge of information security. May own the financial and business intelligence technologies. Unless it's a very enlightened org, this is often the "cost center" team. Digital talks to the world in a modern way--runs the websites, blogs, social media channels, paid digital ads, etc. Often housed within a larger communications and/or marketing division. Technically a cost center but the visibility makes up for it in the eyes of executives. Product builds the technology that makes money. This would be like the e-commerce platform, ad network, mobile apps, etc. Executives value things that make money. Often, all three groups need developers. The tools and roles may differ, but you can be a developer in a major company without feeling "stuck in IT."

rdiddly 9y ago

The solution to the first point is to go to a place that already has an IT department. The second (making a bottom-line impact) is probably a non-issue. If it's not a tech company, that means they are likely failing to use tech fully, in places that really could benefit from it. Automate stuff that needs it, and quantify the time saved as: (time it took before - time it takes now) * number of times each person has to do it per week * number of people * what those people get paid / what you get paid = time T you saved in a week, in terms of your own hours. Each time you do something, add its T value to a running total. Likely an hour here, an hour there. Eventually it hits 40 and you and the managers can clearly see that your employment is paying for itself. Keep going and you're making them money.

sudhirj 9y ago

This isn’t true any more with software eating the world. I work in movie distribution for instance, which was traditionally sending reels of film, but is now all RSA, certificates, HSMs, remote device management, logistics, Analytics, ticketing, databases and distributed computing. The software team gets pretty much the same treatment as everyone else, but everyone knows it’s the future of the company and sets a pretty high bar.

sudhirj 9y ago
Speaking of which, our interview process is to ask you to solve a challenge on Github, but you’re free to keep it open source as an indicator of your skills. And it’s not work for us, these are obviously toy / proof of concept problems that we solved ages ago.

jcims 9y ago

Most larger companies have clearly defined boundaries between IT and software development. And with the push towards automation and security at every layer of the stack, even IT has a growing role for software architecture and development skills.

ubermonkey 9y ago

Yeah, NEVER be overhead if you can avoid it.