13 ms·

How engineers can stand out from the applicant pool

251 points by lynnetye 8y ago

optimuspaul 8y ago
Lot of great insights there I think. I especially like Leah's "When an engineer is a fan of the product, they stand out." That is something I look for in candidates, passion for the work they will be doing.
- lynnetye 8y ago
  Feel free to share your answer to the same question! Also, what's your product?
- dvtrn 8y ago
  That is something I look for in candidates, passion for the work they will be doing. How do you differentiate passion for the work they'll be doing from a complete willingness and competency to do the job because they've got to put food on the table? I'm not passionate about programming (and certainly not passionate about freight logistics), I just happen to be very good at it, I like my coworkers..oh and it pays the rent and tuition.
  - kenhwang 8y ago
    I like looking for passion for problem solving. The problems just usually require using programming as a tool. I'd like to believe the product is also solving a real problem. The metaphor I like to use is, I'm looking for a carpenter that likes building structures, not a carpenter that likes using hammers. But that's just what I'm looking for, and what I believe many engineering-centric orgs are looking for. There are definitely companies out there that just want another assembly robot in their software factory assembly line and plenty of people happy to take that role.
- leahculver 8y ago
  Thanks! Admittedly, it’s easier when you build consumer products.
a_imho 8y ago
Stock answers, all of them are expected in any given interview. Want to stand out? Say you are actually interested in earning money for your work, a truly novel idea nowadays.
- drblast 8y ago
  "Sorry, we don't do that here."
- trevyn 8y ago
  I completely agree that good software engineers are able to provide value significantly above the standard salary ranges for the profession. That said, I’m pretty pragmatic about it — I don’t want “a job”, but I respect that there is a price for which I would do the work. In the past, I’ve been direct and honest that the price is about $2M/yr + significant equity. Sends a message, and gets the wrong recruiters off your back. :) But — if you are applying for jobs for which there are common salary ranges, you are signalling that you’re likely willing to work for something in that general range. I think part of the larger situation is that the leaders of many small businesses (including many startups) don’t know how to effectively apply good engineers.
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Effective managers are in short supply compared to the number of founders running startups with no experience. I suppose this is because if you’re an effective manager, why would you lower your comp by working at a startup instead of at a larger established business that can properly compensate you for your valuable skill set (while anyone with some combination of an idea and some cash can be a founder).
  - fwdpropaganda 8y ago
    Ever had anyone offer you $2M/yr?
  - a_imho 8y ago
    I'm not really complaining about salaries though, just the fact that unsurprisingly honesty is not on anyone's list. Let's be frank, people want to pay their bills and suits are worried about bottom lines.
busterarm 8y ago
The pool of founders spoken to was pretty homogenous. I would have liked a wider perspective.
- justboxing 8y ago
  Yes. And 100% of them are female co-founders. Ain't nothing wrong with that, but it stood out to me.
  - sskates 8y ago
    An interesting question for me would be if it had been all male co-founders. Would that have stood out?
    - philangist 8y ago
      In [218]: female_founders = 0.17 # https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/19/in-2017-only-17-of-startups-have-a-female-founder/ In [219]: male_founders = 0.83 In [220]: female_founders ** 6 Out[220]: 2.413756900000001e-05 In [221]: male_founders ** 6 Out[221]: 0.3269403733689999 It wouldn't have stood out to me.
    - GhostVII 8y ago
      Probably not, because there are far more male cofounders than female.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
axoltl 8y ago
Seems like a lot of the answers boil down to "build a portfolio". I don't think the people that have the time to build that portfolio have a lot to worry about. Sure, they may not get to work at that one company they want to work at but they're pretty much guaranteed some type of employment. What about the people that don't have that time though? The people that may have spent time in evening classes learning how to program. How do they stand out?
- robohoe 8y ago
  Or people with family obligations?
- nicoburns 8y ago
  Take a job at a 'less good' company and build up your CV by working?
lordnacho 8y ago
Boring answer... The only thing that really does stand out is when you get a CV that says the person has done all the things that your org wants to do. (Yes that's bad for recent grads.) Hired a couple of people recently, and guess what. They tick all the boxes. Worked for firms that did low latency cpp, wrote apps that did what we wanted ours to do, and using the tools that we wanted. From the other side I got an offer a few months back, and same deal. I ended up not taking it, but it was just "have you written xyz kind of code for another firm?" And the questions were all geared towards that. And since I ticked all the boxes, everything went forward. If your CVs don't contain that unicorn who's done the exact thing that you need, you have a lot of awkward conversations. Is Minotaur close enough? What about this other language, it's pretty similar, right? Maybe the OS isn't such a big deal for this project. They'll get used to finance, it's not that different from...
- dclusin 8y ago
  Isnt HFT implemented on FPGAs these?
  - ddorian43 8y ago
    Both. Big boys fpga, other ones cpu. Source: some tweet/comments.
    - physguy1123 8y ago
      A lot of relatively fixed-function peripherals tend towards hardware, but the industry is moving away from pure speed (alternative interpretation: pure speed people failed) and for many strategies software can be more than fast enough and the flexibility benefits are worth it. That's not to say there aren't pure hardware strategies, but most of them operate in tandem with latency-sensitive software strategies as well.
  - lordnacho 8y ago
    Not every piece goes into FPGA.
  - 8y ago
mathatoms 8y ago
This article seems to have an assumption that companies have this huge pool of qualified candidates applying for jobs and you, as an applicant, just need to show that little extra initiative to beat out the other applicants. As someone who has reviewed mountains of resumes for a large company, this assumption doesn't match my experience. In my experience there is this huge pool of unqualified applicants applying for every job no matter what the actual job requirements are. The applicants that got a call for an interview 1) looked at the technologies listed in the job requirements and 2) put their experience with these technologies on their resume. Also important, once you get called in for an interview make sure you can answer the most basic questions about what is on your resume. If you put Linux experience on your resume make sure you can explain how to list the contents of a directory from the command line. If you put MySQL experience on your resume make sure you can explain how to get a count of the total number of rows in a table. Are there really companies out there where the difference between getting an offer and not getting an offer is spending a few hours making a bespoke "please hire me" website?
- busterarm 8y ago
  > Are there really companies out there where the difference between getting an offer and not getting an offer is spending a few hours making a bespoke "please hire me" website? No, but it can jedi mind trick your way past HR screeners. And that's the only thing that it can do. If your only way into a company you want to work for is "through the front door" and you aren't a perfect on-paper candidate for them (same role at a direct competitor) then it could be worth your time doing this... I did this once while applying to a fully remote company and it got me the interview (hey, it's hard to compete against hundreds of applications per day) but did not end up with an offer.
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    It's probably easier to just befriend some engineers that are already working there.
    - busterarm 8y ago
WhompingWindows 8y ago
Standing out from the applicant pool is best done by knowing someone within the organization. You can create targeted websites or individualized plans for improvement of the business, but in my experience, many companies simply give preference to recommendations from current employees. Does HR really have the expertise to go through all these personalized, technical solutions? Probably not, but if they are told by a current engineer that you have the skills and personality, they will fast track you into an interview. No wonder companies give referral bonuses - they'd much rather do that than wade through a sea of resumes, with hard to replicate and verify information.
torvald 8y ago
I wonder if Nina got that job in Airbnb.
- busterarm 8y ago
  She did not. She got interviews at other companies and landed at Upwork for a while.
  - dabockster 8y ago
    So she started freelancing?
    - busterarm 8y ago
      No she had a role in "Growth" at Upwork.
- bencompanion 8y ago
  I'm not really clear on what position she was applying for, but given that the article is engineering focused, the fact that the whole page is just a massive mosaic of image tiles would be an instant deal-breaker for me. I mean, I get the whole 'not everyone designs', but anyone wanting to work at that level should at least know 'text-as-images = bad'.
3uclid 8y ago
Not trying to be inflammatory here, but is there a reason why all the co-founders are women?
- mywittyname 8y ago
  The author is a woman, so a reasonable explanation is many of her co-founder acquaintances are also woman and, as such, were more likely to respond to the author's inquiry.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- vectorpush 8y ago
  It's statistically possible, so why not?
lr4444lr 8y ago
Other than Leah Culver's line "I also personally look for engineers with a collaborative attitude rather than a competitive one", I wouldn't say any of this is good advice.
BasHamer 8y ago
doesn't the answer boil down to marketing? It is talking about expressing shared values (trough open source and mentoring) value (personal accomplishment) and warm fuzzies (being a fan of the company, product, etc.) As to how to do that; learn it or hire someone. As you likely only have your hours to sell I'd say the case for outsourcing becomes compelling.
vemv 8y ago
What undeniably would stand out, and speak for itself is a large portfolio of open-source contributions to widely-used projects. No personal projects. No libraries no-one-else uses. Real 1K+ stars projects in the niche/ecosystem you are targeting (Elixir? React Native?). Go for breadth rather than depth. Demonstrate you can get 20 PRs merged to 20 different top-tier projects, adapting to their needs, standards, understanding their codebases of course. Interacting with them in a polite, optimal manner. Mental exercise: think of one such contributor. Would you hire her? Of course you would, in a blink. No CV needed. I know it's easier said than done, but executed well, it will be level-up whichever salary you were making previously. (what to PR? Simply solve one of the many issues listed in a given project's tracker)
- jmcphers 8y ago
  > Demonstrate you can get 20 PRs merged to 20 different top-tier projects, adapting to their needs... This would be very impressive... but would also require _months_ of effort. I don't know any successful engineers who have that much time on their hands.
  - Terr_ 8y ago
    > _months_ of effort And that's after the dev work, just convincing someone to care about your PR and its associated use-case or bug.
  - vemv 8y ago
    It's not uncommon to have a 'dev sabbatical'. Neither is the notion of investing in one's skills beyond on-the-fly self-learning. Some devs are able to save quite some money, or to work far less than 8h/d. I'd invite those to reinvest that time/money. Perhaps you can do it once every few years and ensure a truly remarkable career. This might become more and more important as the market gets saturated with bootcampers, hustlers, or simply people who are junior today but will compete with you tomorrow.
    - krageon 8y ago
      It might not be uncommon in your neck of the woods, but where I exist this isn't common at all. Everyone has to work, and the luxury of being able to save "quite some money" (or work far less, which is more or less the same thing) definitely doesn't go to people who I'd call a "dev" (and not say, a consultant or upper management).
draw_down 8y ago
> ... demonstrate that you are a well-rounded individual and not just a keyboard jockey. Yuck.
scarface74 8y ago
Easy - don't play the game. I never apply for a job blind or through an applicant tracking system. I always use local recruiters that I've nurtured relationships with. I also don't negotiate salary. I know my market and tell the recruiters up front how much I want to make. They don't waste my time submitting me to companies where I am above the salary range.
- swozey 8y ago
  So you don't negotiate salary but you're completely fine giving 10-20% of your possible salary to the recruiters?
  - scarface74 8y ago
    That's not how it works. The company pays the recruiters commission. It doesn't come out of your salary at least not for a full time job. I know market rates for my area. I can guarantee you I'm not underpaid by 20%. For a contract job, where the company pays the recruiting agency and they pay you, yeah you can get a larger hourly rate by going straight to the company.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      As a hiring manager, can confirm. I am selective about roles I open up to external recruiter submissions, but those that I do, I am entirely indifferent between candidate A who was sourced internally (no additional fee to me) and candidate B who was submitted by an external. If candidate B has any edge over candidate A, I'm not going to even think about the 20-33% of first year comp when making the decision.
      - zachrose 8y ago
        Can you explain that a bit more? What if candidate A was sourced internally, had a slight edge over B, and wanted 20-33% more in pay?
        8y ago
shanev 8y ago
“I also personally look for engineers with a collaborative attitude rather than a competitive one.” -Leah Culver This is a highly underrated attribute. Crucial to getting anything done effectively in a team.
- paladin314159 8y ago
  This is an interesting discussion. I don't believe collaborative and competitive are actually at odds with each other, think professional sports teams as the most obvious example. Yes, you absolutely want collaborative players who will maximize the potential of the team, but you sure as hell want them to be competitive too. I'm personally a very competitive person, and I love being part of a team that wins. The collaborative vs competitive mindset feels like a false dichotomy to me.
  - lynnetye 8y ago
    Good point. I'm also extremely competitive, but I like competing on teams more than I do as an individual. However, I've worked w/ people who are competitive with their peers/colleagues/coworkers. These are people that I would not hire. I think this is what Leah and @shanev are describing?
    - shanev 8y ago
      Yep that’s what I mean.
    - paladin314159 8y ago
      That makes sense, and I figured as much. I just like to make a pitch for competitiveness being a positive trait whenever this comes up!
  - whack 8y ago
    I think what OP is referring to is collaborating with your teammates, and competing against your company's competition. I've met far too many people whose mindset is that of competing against their teammates. It's the equivalent of a basketball player who never ever passes the ball.
anon1094 8y ago
The reality is that PDF resumes are dead. There are too many applicants for you to stand out that way if you don't already have some kind of "in" like knowing someone at the company. So what can you do? You can create targeted websites like suggested in the article, but that takes a long time and likely isn't worth the effort. I've gotten ignored many times doing this. Here's what has worked best: 1.Skip the resume even if the company insists on it. 2. Find the hiring manager's email (or anyone involved in hiring) 3. Send a well put together cover letter email selling your skills with concrete links to projects you can show. GitHub, Codepen, Blog links work very well here. Here's a blog post focusing on remote jobs that I put together that goes into more depth in case you're interested: https://remoteleads.io/blog/proposals-that-win-remote-freelance-clients/ https://remoteleads.io/blog/proposals-that-win-remote-freela... Why does this work? You're reaching an real human and have a higher chance of getting looked at for your skills instead of getting your resume scanned by a resume-reading machine. This works well when you don't already have connections with the company.
- senatorobama 8y ago
  Don't get it. You expect the entire market to be coding for free in their spare time just not to be destitute?
- flukus 8y ago
  > Send a well put together cover letter email selling your skills with concrete links to projects you can show. Step 3 is reinventing the resume.
- peterburkimsher 8y ago
  When writing a cover letter, should I make it about me and my skills, or "us" (the relationship with the company)? For the last 3.5 years I've been doing automation, control, logging, and data science projects for a memory card manufacturer in Taiwan. Now I want to move to New Zealand (possibly Australia or Canada). Although my parents are British, I've had more work experience in the relational culture of East Asia (China, Korea, Taiwan). I feel uneasy just bragging about myself on a cover letter/résumé, and instead prefer to write about how "we" could work together. I'm worried that individualist cultures might not understand that, though. Should I change my writing style?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
neilwilson 8y ago
In a world short of talent it is the employers that have to stand out in the pool. And they don't do that by playing frat games with applicants.
z3t4 8y ago
It's impossible to get past HR screening unless you're an CV expert. They look at things like paper texture, inc, font, formatting, spelling etc, because that's what they are good at. They don't know anything about C++ or Haskel. You need to get around HR and talk directly to someone that can actually tell if you are qualified or not. The best bet is if you have someone on the inside that can voice for you. Or get their attention somehow so that they reach out to you.
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z3t4 8y ago
HR tries to match the stacks, eg they need someone that knows SQL+JSON+Java+JavaScript+Andoird+Linux+Git+WinAPI+HTML+CSS, but then they get an application who has C++,Haskel,OOP,FP,C,Linux,Sysadmin,DBA,SQL they will throw it away because it doesn't match. Now I did some math and with 1000 techs, in stacks of 10, you would get 2.6 * 10^26 combinations. So it's impossible to find a candidate that will match!

251 points by lynnetye 8y ago

Lot of great insights there I think. I especially like Leah's "When an engineer is a fan of the product, they stand out." That is something I look for in candidates, passion for the work they will be doing.

lynnetye 8y ago
Feel free to share your answer to the same question! Also, what's your product?
dvtrn 8y ago
That is something I look for in candidates, passion for the work they will be doing. How do you differentiate passion for the work they'll be doing from a complete willingness and competency to do the job because they've got to put food on the table? I'm not passionate about programming (and certainly not passionate about freight logistics), I just happen to be very good at it, I like my coworkers..oh and it pays the rent and tuition.
- kenhwang 8y ago
  I like looking for passion for problem solving. The problems just usually require using programming as a tool. I'd like to believe the product is also solving a real problem. The metaphor I like to use is, I'm looking for a carpenter that likes building structures, not a carpenter that likes using hammers. But that's just what I'm looking for, and what I believe many engineering-centric orgs are looking for. There are definitely companies out there that just want another assembly robot in their software factory assembly line and plenty of people happy to take that role.
leahculver 8y ago
Thanks! Admittedly, it’s easier when you build consumer products.

a_imho 8y ago

Stock answers, all of them are expected in any given interview. Want to stand out? Say you are actually interested in earning money for your work, a truly novel idea nowadays.

drblast 8y ago
"Sorry, we don't do that here."
trevyn 8y ago
I completely agree that good software engineers are able to provide value significantly above the standard salary ranges for the profession. That said, I’m pretty pragmatic about it — I don’t want “a job”, but I respect that there is a price for which I would do the work. In the past, I’ve been direct and honest that the price is about $2M/yr + significant equity. Sends a message, and gets the wrong recruiters off your back. :) But — if you are applying for jobs for which there are common salary ranges, you are signalling that you’re likely willing to work for something in that general range. I think part of the larger situation is that the leaders of many small businesses (including many startups) don’t know how to effectively apply good engineers.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Effective managers are in short supply compared to the number of founders running startups with no experience. I suppose this is because if you’re an effective manager, why would you lower your comp by working at a startup instead of at a larger established business that can properly compensate you for your valuable skill set (while anyone with some combination of an idea and some cash can be a founder).
- fwdpropaganda 8y ago
  Ever had anyone offer you $2M/yr?
- a_imho 8y ago
  I'm not really complaining about salaries though, just the fact that unsurprisingly honesty is not on anyone's list. Let's be frank, people want to pay their bills and suits are worried about bottom lines.

busterarm 8y ago

The pool of founders spoken to was pretty homogenous. I would have liked a wider perspective.

justboxing 8y ago
Yes. And 100% of them are female co-founders. Ain't nothing wrong with that, but it stood out to me.
- sskates 8y ago
  An interesting question for me would be if it had been all male co-founders. Would that have stood out?
  - philangist 8y ago
    In [218]: female_founders = 0.17 # https://techcrunch.com/2017/04/19/in-2017-only-17-of-startups-have-a-female-founder/ In [219]: male_founders = 0.83 In [220]: female_founders ** 6 Out[220]: 2.413756900000001e-05 In [221]: male_founders ** 6 Out[221]: 0.3269403733689999 It wouldn't have stood out to me.
  - GhostVII 8y ago
    Probably not, because there are far more male cofounders than female.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

axoltl 8y ago

Seems like a lot of the answers boil down to "build a portfolio". I don't think the people that have the time to build that portfolio have a lot to worry about. Sure, they may not get to work at that one company they want to work at but they're pretty much guaranteed some type of employment. What about the people that don't have that time though? The people that may have spent time in evening classes learning how to program. How do they stand out?

robohoe 8y ago
Or people with family obligations?
nicoburns 8y ago
Take a job at a 'less good' company and build up your CV by working?

lordnacho 8y ago

Boring answer... The only thing that really does stand out is when you get a CV that says the person has done all the things that your org wants to do. (Yes that's bad for recent grads.) Hired a couple of people recently, and guess what. They tick all the boxes. Worked for firms that did low latency cpp, wrote apps that did what we wanted ours to do, and using the tools that we wanted. From the other side I got an offer a few months back, and same deal. I ended up not taking it, but it was just "have you written xyz kind of code for another firm?" And the questions were all geared towards that. And since I ticked all the boxes, everything went forward. If your CVs don't contain that unicorn who's done the exact thing that you need, you have a lot of awkward conversations. Is Minotaur close enough? What about this other language, it's pretty similar, right? Maybe the OS isn't such a big deal for this project. They'll get used to finance, it's not that different from...

dclusin 8y ago
Isnt HFT implemented on FPGAs these?
- ddorian43 8y ago
  Both. Big boys fpga, other ones cpu. Source: some tweet/comments.
  - physguy1123 8y ago
    A lot of relatively fixed-function peripherals tend towards hardware, but the industry is moving away from pure speed (alternative interpretation: pure speed people failed) and for many strategies software can be more than fast enough and the flexibility benefits are worth it. That's not to say there aren't pure hardware strategies, but most of them operate in tandem with latency-sensitive software strategies as well.
- lordnacho 8y ago
  Not every piece goes into FPGA.
- 8y ago

mathatoms 8y ago

This article seems to have an assumption that companies have this huge pool of qualified candidates applying for jobs and you, as an applicant, just need to show that little extra initiative to beat out the other applicants. As someone who has reviewed mountains of resumes for a large company, this assumption doesn't match my experience. In my experience there is this huge pool of unqualified applicants applying for every job no matter what the actual job requirements are. The applicants that got a call for an interview 1) looked at the technologies listed in the job requirements and 2) put their experience with these technologies on their resume. Also important, once you get called in for an interview make sure you can answer the most basic questions about what is on your resume. If you put Linux experience on your resume make sure you can explain how to list the contents of a directory from the command line. If you put MySQL experience on your resume make sure you can explain how to get a count of the total number of rows in a table. Are there really companies out there where the difference between getting an offer and not getting an offer is spending a few hours making a bespoke "please hire me" website?

busterarm 8y ago
> Are there really companies out there where the difference between getting an offer and not getting an offer is spending a few hours making a bespoke "please hire me" website? No, but it can jedi mind trick your way past HR screeners. And that's the only thing that it can do. If your only way into a company you want to work for is "through the front door" and you aren't a perfect on-paper candidate for them (same role at a direct competitor) then it could be worth your time doing this... I did this once while applying to a fully remote company and it got me the interview (hey, it's hard to compete against hundreds of applications per day) but did not end up with an offer.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  It's probably easier to just befriend some engineers that are already working there.
  - busterarm 8y ago

WhompingWindows 8y ago

Standing out from the applicant pool is best done by knowing someone within the organization. You can create targeted websites or individualized plans for improvement of the business, but in my experience, many companies simply give preference to recommendations from current employees. Does HR really have the expertise to go through all these personalized, technical solutions? Probably not, but if they are told by a current engineer that you have the skills and personality, they will fast track you into an interview. No wonder companies give referral bonuses - they'd much rather do that than wade through a sea of resumes, with hard to replicate and verify information.

torvald 8y ago

I wonder if Nina got that job in Airbnb.

busterarm 8y ago
She did not. She got interviews at other companies and landed at Upwork for a while.
- dabockster 8y ago
  So she started freelancing?
  - busterarm 8y ago
    No she had a role in "Growth" at Upwork.
bencompanion 8y ago
I'm not really clear on what position she was applying for, but given that the article is engineering focused, the fact that the whole page is just a massive mosaic of image tiles would be an instant deal-breaker for me. I mean, I get the whole 'not everyone designs', but anyone wanting to work at that level should at least know 'text-as-images = bad'.

3uclid 8y ago

Not trying to be inflammatory here, but is there a reason why all the co-founders are women?

mywittyname 8y ago
The author is a woman, so a reasonable explanation is many of her co-founder acquaintances are also woman and, as such, were more likely to respond to the author's inquiry.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
vectorpush 8y ago
It's statistically possible, so why not?

lr4444lr 8y ago

Other than Leah Culver's line "I also personally look for engineers with a collaborative attitude rather than a competitive one", I wouldn't say any of this is good advice.

BasHamer 8y ago

doesn't the answer boil down to marketing? It is talking about expressing shared values (trough open source and mentoring) value (personal accomplishment) and warm fuzzies (being a fan of the company, product, etc.) As to how to do that; learn it or hire someone. As you likely only have your hours to sell I'd say the case for outsourcing becomes compelling.

vemv 8y ago

What undeniably would stand out, and speak for itself is a large portfolio of open-source contributions to widely-used projects. No personal projects. No libraries no-one-else uses. Real 1K+ stars projects in the niche/ecosystem you are targeting (Elixir? React Native?). Go for breadth rather than depth. Demonstrate you can get 20 PRs merged to 20 different top-tier projects, adapting to their needs, standards, understanding their codebases of course. Interacting with them in a polite, optimal manner. Mental exercise: think of one such contributor. Would you hire her? Of course you would, in a blink. No CV needed. I know it's easier said than done, but executed well, it will be level-up whichever salary you were making previously. (what to PR? Simply solve one of the many issues listed in a given project's tracker)

jmcphers 8y ago
> Demonstrate you can get 20 PRs merged to 20 different top-tier projects, adapting to their needs... This would be very impressive... but would also require _months_ of effort. I don't know any successful engineers who have that much time on their hands.
- Terr_ 8y ago
  > _months_ of effort And that's after the dev work, just convincing someone to care about your PR and its associated use-case or bug.
- vemv 8y ago
  It's not uncommon to have a 'dev sabbatical'. Neither is the notion of investing in one's skills beyond on-the-fly self-learning. Some devs are able to save quite some money, or to work far less than 8h/d. I'd invite those to reinvest that time/money. Perhaps you can do it once every few years and ensure a truly remarkable career. This might become more and more important as the market gets saturated with bootcampers, hustlers, or simply people who are junior today but will compete with you tomorrow.
  - krageon 8y ago
    It might not be uncommon in your neck of the woods, but where I exist this isn't common at all. Everyone has to work, and the luxury of being able to save "quite some money" (or work far less, which is more or less the same thing) definitely doesn't go to people who I'd call a "dev" (and not say, a consultant or upper management).

draw_down 8y ago

> ... demonstrate that you are a well-rounded individual and not just a keyboard jockey. Yuck.

scarface74 8y ago

Easy - don't play the game. I never apply for a job blind or through an applicant tracking system. I always use local recruiters that I've nurtured relationships with. I also don't negotiate salary. I know my market and tell the recruiters up front how much I want to make. They don't waste my time submitting me to companies where I am above the salary range.

swozey 8y ago
So you don't negotiate salary but you're completely fine giving 10-20% of your possible salary to the recruiters?
- scarface74 8y ago
  That's not how it works. The company pays the recruiters commission. It doesn't come out of your salary at least not for a full time job. I know market rates for my area. I can guarantee you I'm not underpaid by 20%. For a contract job, where the company pays the recruiting agency and they pay you, yeah you can get a larger hourly rate by going straight to the company.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    As a hiring manager, can confirm. I am selective about roles I open up to external recruiter submissions, but those that I do, I am entirely indifferent between candidate A who was sourced internally (no additional fee to me) and candidate B who was submitted by an external. If candidate B has any edge over candidate A, I'm not going to even think about the 20-33% of first year comp when making the decision.
    - zachrose 8y ago
      Can you explain that a bit more? What if candidate A was sourced internally, had a slight edge over B, and wanted 20-33% more in pay?
      - 8y ago

shanev 8y ago

“I also personally look for engineers with a collaborative attitude rather than a competitive one.” -Leah Culver This is a highly underrated attribute. Crucial to getting anything done effectively in a team.

paladin314159 8y ago
This is an interesting discussion. I don't believe collaborative and competitive are actually at odds with each other, think professional sports teams as the most obvious example. Yes, you absolutely want collaborative players who will maximize the potential of the team, but you sure as hell want them to be competitive too. I'm personally a very competitive person, and I love being part of a team that wins. The collaborative vs competitive mindset feels like a false dichotomy to me.
- lynnetye 8y ago
  Good point. I'm also extremely competitive, but I like competing on teams more than I do as an individual. However, I've worked w/ people who are competitive with their peers/colleagues/coworkers. These are people that I would not hire. I think this is what Leah and @shanev are describing?
  - shanev 8y ago
    Yep that’s what I mean.
  - paladin314159 8y ago
    That makes sense, and I figured as much. I just like to make a pitch for competitiveness being a positive trait whenever this comes up!
- whack 8y ago
  I think what OP is referring to is collaborating with your teammates, and competing against your company's competition. I've met far too many people whose mindset is that of competing against their teammates. It's the equivalent of a basketball player who never ever passes the ball.

anon1094 8y ago

The reality is that PDF resumes are dead. There are too many applicants for you to stand out that way if you don't already have some kind of "in" like knowing someone at the company. So what can you do? You can create targeted websites like suggested in the article, but that takes a long time and likely isn't worth the effort. I've gotten ignored many times doing this. Here's what has worked best: 1.Skip the resume even if the company insists on it. 2. Find the hiring manager's email (or anyone involved in hiring) 3. Send a well put together cover letter email selling your skills with concrete links to projects you can show. GitHub, Codepen, Blog links work very well here. Here's a blog post focusing on remote jobs that I put together that goes into more depth in case you're interested: https://remoteleads.io/blog/proposals-that-win-remote-freelance-clients/ https://remoteleads.io/blog/proposals-that-win-remote-freela... Why does this work? You're reaching an real human and have a higher chance of getting looked at for your skills instead of getting your resume scanned by a resume-reading machine. This works well when you don't already have connections with the company.

senatorobama 8y ago
Don't get it. You expect the entire market to be coding for free in their spare time just not to be destitute?
flukus 8y ago
> Send a well put together cover letter email selling your skills with concrete links to projects you can show. Step 3 is reinventing the resume.
peterburkimsher 8y ago
When writing a cover letter, should I make it about me and my skills, or "us" (the relationship with the company)? For the last 3.5 years I've been doing automation, control, logging, and data science projects for a memory card manufacturer in Taiwan. Now I want to move to New Zealand (possibly Australia or Canada). Although my parents are British, I've had more work experience in the relational culture of East Asia (China, Korea, Taiwan). I feel uneasy just bragging about myself on a cover letter/résumé, and instead prefer to write about how "we" could work together. I'm worried that individualist cultures might not understand that, though. Should I change my writing style?

deleted 8y ago

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neilwilson 8y ago

In a world short of talent it is the employers that have to stand out in the pool. And they don't do that by playing frat games with applicants.

z3t4 8y ago

It's impossible to get past HR screening unless you're an CV expert. They look at things like paper texture, inc, font, formatting, spelling etc, because that's what they are good at. They don't know anything about C++ or Haskel. You need to get around HR and talk directly to someone that can actually tell if you are qualified or not. The best bet is if you have someone on the inside that can voice for you. Or get their attention somehow so that they reach out to you.

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z3t4 8y ago

HR tries to match the stacks, eg they need someone that knows SQL+JSON+Java+JavaScript+Andoird+Linux+Git+WinAPI+HTML+CSS, but then they get an application who has C++,Haskel,OOP,FP,C,Linux,Sysadmin,DBA,SQL they will throw it away because it doesn't match. Now I did some math and with 1000 techs, in stacks of 10, you would get 2.6 * 10^26 combinations. So it's impossible to find a candidate that will match!