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Approach control recording here - SWA1380 comes in at around the 14-minute mark: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kphl/PHL-App-North-Arrival-Apr-17-2018-1500Z.

Approach control recording here - SWA1380 comes in at around the 14-minute mark: http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kphl/PHL-App-North-Arrival-Apr-17-2018-1500Z.mp3 http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kphl/PHL-App-North-Arrival... The captain is cool as a cucumber. The controller is sweating bullets!

scottlamb 9y ago
> The captain is cool as a cucumber. The controller is sweating bullets! Wow, yeah. 17:03: "Now is your airplane physically on fire?" "No, it's not on fire, but part of it's missing."
- dankohn1 9y ago
  16:55: "Use caution for the downtown area." Meaning, don't fly over downtown so that if your plane comes apart you won't kill large numbers of people below you. Pretty intense stuff.
  - schoen 9y ago
    I'm similarly impressed with the captain here, but I disagree with your interpretation of what the approach controller was saying in this case. Pilot: Southwest 1380, we'd like to turn - to start turning inbound. Approach: Southwest 1380, turn, just start turning southbound there. There's a Southwest 737 on a four-mile final. You'll be turning southbound. Start looking for the airport, it's off to your right and slightly behind you there, and altitude is your discretion. Use caution for the downtown area. Maintain, advise you maintain at or above 2200 per the MVA. I believe this is the point, 34 minutes into the flight, at which the pilot then turns southbound toward the airport, passing almost directly over downtown Philadelphia: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1380/history/20180417/1430Z/KLGA/KDAL https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1380/history/20180417... https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Minimum_Vectoring_Altitude_(MVA) https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Minimum_Vectoring_Altitu... "The minimum vectoring altitude in each sector provides 1000 ft above the highest obstruction in non-mountainous areas and 2000 ft above the highest obstacle in designated mountainous areas. The MVA is the lowest altitude that meets obstacle clearance requirements in the airspace specified. " In this the MVA appeared to refer to the controller's instructions for the altitude required to pass 1000 feet above the tallest buildings in the downtown area. Again, the "caution" related to downtown was mentioned in between the controller's statement that the pilot could use her discretion for the altitude and the statement that he "advise[s]" her to "maintain at or above 2200 [feet] for the MVA" in that region. So in context, I believe the controller was just advising the pilot to attempt to maintain enough altitude to pass safely above the downtown buildings, rather than to avoid flying over the downtown area at all. Again, it appears that she did fly over the downtown area as part of her approach. At the time of its southbound turn, the plane was at an elevation of about 3300 feet and then it passed over downtown at an elevation near 2600 feet or so. [Edit: I saw another transcript that said "per the MVA" instead of "for the MVA", and I've corrected my transcript above. This makes me even more convinced that the "caution for the downtown area" refers to an established precaution, although other aircraft might not have a reason to come as close to the downtown buildings on a typical approach.]
- samfriedman 9y ago
  And after that from the captain, "they said there's a hole and somebody went out." The poor pilots might not have even known that the passenger was only partially pulled out the window. It's even more impressive that the captain was able to act so calmly when she might have been under the impression that a passenger had just been ejected from her plane!
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - rangibaby 9y ago
    Of course you would be calm. Panicking isn’t going to bring the passenger back onto your plane, and you still have your other passengers to get home safely.
  - gcb0 9y ago
    I heard "went up" as in sucked from seat to the hole... the tower asks "went out?" and then dismiss the question.
eric_b 9y ago
Honestly that captain is too calm. Sounds like she's drunk or drugged. I understand calm under fire, but she's talking slower than everyone else on that radio. Seems like quick replies to the point would be better than her lackadaisical speech. Also, she doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what happened to her airplane, or the damage done to it.
- evan_ 9y ago
  so what's your premise here, that she's drunk and that's what caused the engine to explode?
  - BookmarkSaver 9y ago
    Or that the captain could use some more urgency and sharpness in responding to the situation, rather than sounding somewhat checked out and slow. Still a pretty petty point.
    - tclancy 9y ago
      What would urgency sound like, speaking really loudly and quickly? If so, how would that be better than her measured cadence making sure she and the tower are on the same page?
      - spear 9y ago
        I suppose then she'd be criticized for being too "hysterical".
    - lutorm 9y ago
      Talking to ATC is far down on your priority list in emergencies. First priorities are to fly the airplane, figure out what's wrong, decide on a course of action and head in the right direction. Only after all those things are done, should you take time to talk to the controllers. In these situations, you do what's necessary and then, when convenient, you advise the controllers of the actions you are taking.
    - 9y ago
menacingly 9y ago
I always appreciate the ethic of extremely calm radio tone when I hear these recordings. It's clearly something they emphasize, because it's so common, but I think it does a lot to communicate that a pro is on the clock and handling business.
- GW150914 9y ago
  Pilots and controllers are also intimately aware that every word and intonation will be scrutinized in the wake of an accident. They’re generally very well trained, but that’s an added motivation.
  - _s 9y ago
    Not at all. The fact that you can replay any ATC recording is in no way a motivator. Listen to some guard frequencies with aviators displaying such a lack of professionalism it may make you question how we’re allowed to fly. What you’re hearing is hundreds or thousands of hours of flight time; many of which are spent practicing forced landings, and the radio language that becomes second nature. VHF requires you to be incredibly clear when speaking, a single shared frequency enforces short messages that are to the point. I can pretty much guarantee neither of the flight crew thought about any potential inquiry until after they had made a safe landing; as that would’ve been their only focus.
    - ThrustVectoring 9y ago
      Air safety regulators have an enviable record of being focused on what went wrong, rather than who to blame. The industry has remarkable amount of psychological safety for people bringing up and talking about flight safety issues.
    - JacobHenner 9y ago
      AM modulation requires the clarity, not the VHF spectrum.
sxates 9y ago
Wow, this is intense.
russdill 9y ago
ATC handling of emergency begins at 11:20. It'd recommend listening with something that shows waveforms, such as audacity, so you can skip past silence easily.
oasisbob 9y ago
Thanks for that. First mention of the emergency is around 11m20.
oasisbob 9y ago
> The captain is cool as a cucumber. The pilot sounds cool, but I'm not sure she's calm. The initial communication with approach complaining about frequency changes (before even identifying) strikes me as odd. More concretely, many of the transmissions are without identification or readbacks, some stepping on other stations.
- gomijacogeo 9y ago
  The request to minimize frequency changes was to lessen their workload in the cockpit and was probably also meant to convey that they were still a bit busy flying the plane. It's not an unreasonable request.
russdill 9y ago
Captain is a Navy F/A-18 pilot and instructor.
scoot 9y ago
That seems a bit unfair. Both are facing the same tense emergency situation; one while keeping an eye on the auto-pilot, the other while directing multiple inbound flights. Perhaps I'm overthinking, but to my ear, it's the pilot who's bricking it.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  It would seem better for the controller on a problem flight to be able to transfer all the rest of the flights to colleagues?
  - awgy 9y ago
    I think you're right, and I believe this happened to a certain degree where he was vectoring folks out of his sector.
- awgy 9y ago
  I think you're dramatically oversimplifying things by saying that the pilot is just keeping an eye on the autopilot. There is a lot more going on in the cockpit in these situations than simply programming the autopilot. They're running checklists, troubleshooting, navigating, briefing the approach, communicating with the flight attendants, potentially also briefing passengers, potentially briefing their company/ops folks, etc. There's a lot to manage in these situations. Similarly, the controllers aren't just managing the traffic in their area. They're also coordinating with their management, other controllers that are managing neighboring sectors, emergency management folks, etc.

scottlamb 9y ago

> The captain is cool as a cucumber. The controller is sweating bullets! Wow, yeah. 17:03: "Now is your airplane physically on fire?" "No, it's not on fire, but part of it's missing."

dankohn1 9y ago
16:55: "Use caution for the downtown area." Meaning, don't fly over downtown so that if your plane comes apart you won't kill large numbers of people below you. Pretty intense stuff.
- schoen 9y ago
  I'm similarly impressed with the captain here, but I disagree with your interpretation of what the approach controller was saying in this case. Pilot: Southwest 1380, we'd like to turn - to start turning inbound. Approach: Southwest 1380, turn, just start turning southbound there. There's a Southwest 737 on a four-mile final. You'll be turning southbound. Start looking for the airport, it's off to your right and slightly behind you there, and altitude is your discretion. Use caution for the downtown area. Maintain, advise you maintain at or above 2200 per the MVA. I believe this is the point, 34 minutes into the flight, at which the pilot then turns southbound toward the airport, passing almost directly over downtown Philadelphia: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1380/history/20180417/1430Z/KLGA/KDAL https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA1380/history/20180417... https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Minimum_Vectoring_Altitude_(MVA) https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Minimum_Vectoring_Altitu... "The minimum vectoring altitude in each sector provides 1000 ft above the highest obstruction in non-mountainous areas and 2000 ft above the highest obstacle in designated mountainous areas. The MVA is the lowest altitude that meets obstacle clearance requirements in the airspace specified. " In this the MVA appeared to refer to the controller's instructions for the altitude required to pass 1000 feet above the tallest buildings in the downtown area. Again, the "caution" related to downtown was mentioned in between the controller's statement that the pilot could use her discretion for the altitude and the statement that he "advise[s]" her to "maintain at or above 2200 [feet] for the MVA" in that region. So in context, I believe the controller was just advising the pilot to attempt to maintain enough altitude to pass safely above the downtown buildings, rather than to avoid flying over the downtown area at all. Again, it appears that she did fly over the downtown area as part of her approach. At the time of its southbound turn, the plane was at an elevation of about 3300 feet and then it passed over downtown at an elevation near 2600 feet or so. [Edit: I saw another transcript that said "per the MVA" instead of "for the MVA", and I've corrected my transcript above. This makes me even more convinced that the "caution for the downtown area" refers to an established precaution, although other aircraft might not have a reason to come as close to the downtown buildings on a typical approach.]
samfriedman 9y ago
And after that from the captain, "they said there's a hole and somebody went out." The poor pilots might not have even known that the passenger was only partially pulled out the window. It's even more impressive that the captain was able to act so calmly when she might have been under the impression that a passenger had just been ejected from her plane!
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- rangibaby 9y ago
  Of course you would be calm. Panicking isn’t going to bring the passenger back onto your plane, and you still have your other passengers to get home safely.
- gcb0 9y ago
  I heard "went up" as in sucked from seat to the hole... the tower asks "went out?" and then dismiss the question.

eric_b 9y ago

Honestly that captain is too calm. Sounds like she's drunk or drugged. I understand calm under fire, but she's talking slower than everyone else on that radio. Seems like quick replies to the point would be better than her lackadaisical speech. Also, she doesn't seem to have a firm grasp on what happened to her airplane, or the damage done to it.

evan_ 9y ago
so what's your premise here, that she's drunk and that's what caused the engine to explode?
- BookmarkSaver 9y ago
  Or that the captain could use some more urgency and sharpness in responding to the situation, rather than sounding somewhat checked out and slow. Still a pretty petty point.
  - tclancy 9y ago
    What would urgency sound like, speaking really loudly and quickly? If so, how would that be better than her measured cadence making sure she and the tower are on the same page?
    - spear 9y ago
      I suppose then she'd be criticized for being too "hysterical".
  - lutorm 9y ago
    Talking to ATC is far down on your priority list in emergencies. First priorities are to fly the airplane, figure out what's wrong, decide on a course of action and head in the right direction. Only after all those things are done, should you take time to talk to the controllers. In these situations, you do what's necessary and then, when convenient, you advise the controllers of the actions you are taking.
  - 9y ago

menacingly 9y ago

I always appreciate the ethic of extremely calm radio tone when I hear these recordings. It's clearly something they emphasize, because it's so common, but I think it does a lot to communicate that a pro is on the clock and handling business.

GW150914 9y ago
Pilots and controllers are also intimately aware that every word and intonation will be scrutinized in the wake of an accident. They’re generally very well trained, but that’s an added motivation.
- _s 9y ago
  Not at all. The fact that you can replay any ATC recording is in no way a motivator. Listen to some guard frequencies with aviators displaying such a lack of professionalism it may make you question how we’re allowed to fly. What you’re hearing is hundreds or thousands of hours of flight time; many of which are spent practicing forced landings, and the radio language that becomes second nature. VHF requires you to be incredibly clear when speaking, a single shared frequency enforces short messages that are to the point. I can pretty much guarantee neither of the flight crew thought about any potential inquiry until after they had made a safe landing; as that would’ve been their only focus.
  - ThrustVectoring 9y ago
    Air safety regulators have an enviable record of being focused on what went wrong, rather than who to blame. The industry has remarkable amount of psychological safety for people bringing up and talking about flight safety issues.
  - JacobHenner 9y ago
    AM modulation requires the clarity, not the VHF spectrum.

sxates 9y ago

Wow, this is intense.

russdill 9y ago

ATC handling of emergency begins at 11:20. It'd recommend listening with something that shows waveforms, such as audacity, so you can skip past silence easily.

oasisbob 9y ago

Thanks for that. First mention of the emergency is around 11m20.

oasisbob 9y ago

> The captain is cool as a cucumber. The pilot sounds cool, but I'm not sure she's calm. The initial communication with approach complaining about frequency changes (before even identifying) strikes me as odd. More concretely, many of the transmissions are without identification or readbacks, some stepping on other stations.

gomijacogeo 9y ago
The request to minimize frequency changes was to lessen their workload in the cockpit and was probably also meant to convey that they were still a bit busy flying the plane. It's not an unreasonable request.

russdill 9y ago

Captain is a Navy F/A-18 pilot and instructor.

scoot 9y ago

That seems a bit unfair. Both are facing the same tense emergency situation; one while keeping an eye on the auto-pilot, the other while directing multiple inbound flights. Perhaps I'm overthinking, but to my ear, it's the pilot who's bricking it.

jessaustin 9y ago
It would seem better for the controller on a problem flight to be able to transfer all the rest of the flights to colleagues?
- awgy 9y ago
  I think you're right, and I believe this happened to a certain degree where he was vectoring folks out of his sector.
awgy 9y ago
I think you're dramatically oversimplifying things by saying that the pilot is just keeping an eye on the autopilot. There is a lot more going on in the cockpit in these situations than simply programming the autopilot. They're running checklists, troubleshooting, navigating, briefing the approach, communicating with the flight attendants, potentially also briefing passengers, potentially briefing their company/ops folks, etc. There's a lot to manage in these situations. Similarly, the controllers aren't just managing the traffic in their area. They're also coordinating with their management, other controllers that are managing neighboring sectors, emergency management folks, etc.