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Microsoft built its own custom Linux kernel for its new IoT service
- nickthemagicman 8y agoIt's like the Zune of Linux Distros!
- jjeaff 8y agoNot sure if you mean it as a slight, but I always thought the Zune was superior in every way to the iPod. Windows Media player instead of iTunes to start with.
- antoineMoPa 8y agoI had a zune. It had a resistive touch screen with terrible accuracy that needed manual calibration every now and then.
- apearson 8y agoThe ZuneHD was a wonderful upgrade to the Original Zune and Zune Gen 2. Just a tad bit to late to compete.
- mlvljr 8y agoomg
- JudasGoat 8y agoSomeone has been predicting that Microsoft would in the future produce their own Linux Distro on Slashdot for the last 5 years. I remember thinking it sounded impossible for for the first few years. Seems prophetic now.
- Operyl 8y agoIf you say the same thing long enough one day it’ll be true in some way (little or big).
- drbojingle 8y agoTo bad your statement isn't one of those things.
- BinaryIdiot 8y agoIf you say the same thing long enough one day it’ll be true in some way (little or big).
- quickthrower2 8y agoLinus is going to write his own Windows distribution
- shermanyo 8y agoclose enough? :P https://www.winehq.org/ https://www.winehq.org/
- squarefoot 8y agoRather than their Linux distro I think they will do what Google did with Android, that is, making their ecosystem run under the Linux kernel (plus MS services) so that they will save a huge load of money by not having to maintain their own kernel. Think about not having to write drivers for every piece of hardware that gets produced; they would probably just audit and test the code to certify the driver as fully compatible. This may seem good, but my paranoid half (make it 9/10) thinks they could "hijack" the Linux user base by releasing software certified as Linux compatible that runs only under their Linux, and by being platinum members of the Linux Foundation they could be entitled to say that their Linux is the only true one.
- lalaithion 8y agoAnd then Linus would fork it, and everyone would follow his fork instead of Microsoft's.
- squarefoot 8y agoWe would for sure, though I'm not sure about the corporate world.
- yndoendo 8y agoStill cannot understand the IoT mentality. It is actually the CoT Communication of Things. Internet shouldn't be required to turn your lights on or off nor be the device communication backbone in an industrial enviornment. Internet should always be the last resort for communicating because of the distance.
- duxup 8y agoI can't monitor you or turn your light switch into a "service" that involves reoccurring payments if we don't use the internet to connect.... /s
- bsder 8y agoAnd you also can't get a security update when someone figures out how to turn your lightbulbs into a botnet.
- jamiek88 8y agoIf it's not on the internet it can't become part of a botnet. You lose functionality though, like being able to check doors etc. remotely. I trust Apple and I trust Homekit so I'm not too concerned with that.
- dcow 8y agoWhy can't you have both?
- TeMPOraL 8y ago> You lose functionality though, like being able to check doors etc. remotely. You don't. That's what VPNs are for.
- icebraining 8y agoWhat kind of VPN? If you mean using the router to connect the LAN to a VPN, then this[1] report should put to rest the idea that they are trustworthy. If it's an end-to-end VPN, it's doubtful most of these devices have the power to run a client. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16847716 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16847716
- pfarnsworth 8y agoMicrosoft has a lot of great engineers that have no religious bias against Linux. This was strictly a Bill Gates/Steve Ballmer thing. The smartest thing Nadella did was get rid of the Windows religion aspect to their work and let their engineers do the best thing, and not be afraid of Linux.
- ekianjo 8y agowhere is the office suite for Linux then?
- kerng 8y agoI think that's a pure business decision, they have Office for Android and iOS. Office for Linux might not make that much sense given the low market share on client - but Office 365 has most as WebApps anyway also.
- kelnos 8y agoI doubt that has much to do with "religion"; they simply don't think a Linux version of Office will bring in enough revenue to be worth the development and support costs... and I probably wouldn't disagree with that assessment. Linux has large (majority?) market share in the server and IoT markets, but a very tiny market share when it comes to desktop.
- ekianjo 8y agoYes, but such applications like Office would make it a lot easier for more people to consider Linux as a viable alternative OS.
- shakna 8y agoOffice 365 is supposed to be the cross-platform, run-anywhere, version of Office.
- dingo_bat 8y agoIt's known as office 365. And it is superior to any other office suite available for Linux.
- lobster_johnson 8y agoThe article pretends to answer why they're using Linux instead of the NT kernel, but the answer is either incomplete or a non sequitur; it seems to imply that since the devices has very little power, their kernel isn't a good fit. I thought the NT kernel was pretty good at low power, and also has a highly respected internal design?
- jonathanyc 8y agoGood point; but if I’m reading the article correctly, it sounds like it’s because the Linux kernel is open source: > The Microsoft-secured Linux kernel used in the Azure Sphere IoT OS is shared under an OSS license so that silicon partners can rapidly enable new silicon innovations.” And those partners are also very comfortable with taking an open-source release and integrating that with their products. I think it’d be cool if they released an open-source NT kernel for this, for diversity of kernels and because of NT’s reputation like you mentioned previously, but maybe they’re betting on there being many more engineers with Linux-based IoT development experience. As an aside, really impressed with Microsoft recently. I’m still grossed out by the privacy policy of Windows 10, but it really seems like they’ve come up with an excellent strategy for the next decade.
- WorldMaker 8y agoIt looks like Windows IoT Core is currently between Commercial Licensing Terms (it currently just links to a survey form to fill out to request info): https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/getstarted/commercialize/commercialterms https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/iot/getstarted... For a while it was basically free (as in beer) up to an absurdly high volume (IIRC, million-ish devices?). Maybe you are correct that there might not be a huge interest unless the solution is also free as in speech simply because of auditing needs of some of the IoT manufacturers.
- SteveJS 8y agoDrastically simplified source access for the silicon partners seems more important for the business case. I agree the power aspect, absent more specifics, sounds wrong.
- jesseryoung 8y agoAm I missing something here? The custom linux kernel part isn't interesting at all - in fact, Microsoft has pretty much admitted they can't scale down Windows. What's interesting to me here is Microsoft is building an IoT solution that allows manufacturers to delegate security to Microsoft instead of having to roll their own.
- gtirloni 8y agoHow has it admitted anything like that in light of Windows Core OS / Polaris?
- mandeepj 8y ago> in fact, Microsoft has pretty much admitted they can't scale down Windows. Really? Did you check out Windows Nano Server - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/get-started/getting-started-with-nano-server https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/get-started/...
- justincormack 8y agoWindows Nano is only available as a container OS, it was cancelled as a standalone OS.
- komali2 8y ago"Don't roll your own security" has been the marching drum of an entire sector of IoT companies working within the connectivity "slice of the pie." The general mindset has been that iot has a couple slices: the "thing" (air conditioner vibration sensor), how that thing is connected (Ethernet plugged directly into a smart vibration sensor, or vibration sensor plugged into a connected data-recording device), the transmission/storage of that data (cloud solution? Servers on site? Internet y/n?), Analysis of that data (Microsoft IoT platform? Rolled solution? Now defunct Autodesk iot platform?), and finally the acting upon data collected (chief engineer scheduling repairs/maintenance, project manager ordering new motors, whatever). So many companies have tried "rolling their own" because they got it working on a raspberry pi or Arduino in a week, then find out their connectivity is not secure at scale (let alone that the solution can't scale at all). Let specialists specialize. No reason not to let big daddy Microsoft handle the messy bits. Disclosure, I work at electric imp, thus considering myself firmly in the "secure connection and transmission" slice of the pie. Disclosure 2, we're partnered with Microsoft for their new IoT push, lol.
- castle-bravo 8y agoAm I paraphrasing this correctly: > Microsoft-branded ARM microcontrollers running an embedded linux distribution. Microsoft rolls out security updates over Azure to reduce the risk of the device becoming part of a botnet. It sounds great.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- tyingq 8y agoIt does. But, it's also pretty surreal for those of us that worked through the anti-linux Microsoft of the 90's. Windows subsystem for Linux, and initiatives like this are a real confirmation that MS finally "gets it". Right tool for the right job. Good for them. It's also a big swing for me in that I trust MS more than Google now to do the right thing. I'd have thought that impossible a couple of decades ago.
- bpye 8y agoThe videos seem to show an MT3620 device, seems to be made by MediaTek [1]. Looks like they are targeting a Cortex-A7 + Cortex-M4 chip. First time I've seen an A series core in this type of chip. It looks like a developer gets to program the A7 and 2xM4F cores whilst the WiFi radio and Microsoft's "secure" Pluton thing run on a Andes N9 and Cortex M4 core respectively. I assume it is those cores which will be auto-updated in an attempt to defend against attack. [1] https://www.mediatek.com/products/azureSphere/mt3620 https://www.mediatek.com/products/azureSphere/mt3620
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- kelnos 8y agoI'm confused: they're saying the devices have an ARM A7 chip (presumably they mean Cortex-A7) in them, which is a full 32-bit microprocessor, but they're calling them "microcontrollers"? I would think Windows could run on a Cortex-A7, no? Perhaps the specific parts they're using have a ridiculously-low clock rate or other painful limitations?
- _sh 8y agoYou're right, but there is a lot of misunderstanding around this end of the market, mainly because advances have blurred the traditional segmentation. When talking about ARM, the 'M' in Cortex-M means 'microcontroller' whereas the 'A' in Cortex-A means 'application'. Cortex-A systems are often at the centre of 'System-on-Chips' and will run linux, and indeed the NT kernel as well, as they are bundled with enough RAM and fairly modern peripheral interfaces such as HDMI. Cortex-Ms typically can't run linux (excepting uClinux) as they don't have the RAM and typically don't need to as they address a different need (dedicated function instead of general-purpose compute), and have far fewer peripheral interfaces. It used to be all about power profile, but the recent SoCs are getting pretty competitive there as well. But as I said the traditional segmentation at this end of the spectrum is being re-cast seemingly every second week, and so terms such as 'microcontroller' are becoming less meaningful all the time. And who the hell can agree on just what 'embedded' means these days?
- blendo 8y ago"And who the hell can agree on just what 'embedded' means these days?" Or what it'll mean in 10 years, as power/radio/processor/sensor specs continue to improve. I'm speculating, but perhaps MS is banking on the low-end to grow, up into the Android/iOS space. So instead of our current 3-10 devices per family we'll have 30-100 devices. Hopefully, those devices will be secure. Maybe they'll be useful :-)
- rkangel 8y ago> And who the hell can agree on just what 'embedded' means these days? FWIW, my personal definition is "doesn't have an MMU"
- cutler 8y agoJust curious, how's Microsoft's bogus Linux patents racket doing these days?
- bitmapbrother 8y agoI think they've moved on from shaking down companies and customers that use Linux to shaking down companies that use Android. SEP 20, 2011 Casio agrees to pay Microsoft an undisclosed sum for a deal that includes Microsoft's vow not to sue Casio's customers for using its Linux devices Microsoft General Counsel Brad Smith and licensing chief Horacio Gutierrez sat down with Fortune recently to map out their strategy for getting FOSS users to pay royalties. Revealing the precise figure for the first time, they state that FOSS infringes on no fewer than 235 Microsoft patents. It's a breathtaking number. (By comparison, for instance, Verizon's (Charts, Fortune 500) patent suit against Vonage (Charts), which now threatens to bankrupt the latter, was based on just seven patents, of which only three were found to be infringing.) "This is not a case of some accidental, unknowing infringement," Gutierrez asserts. "There is an overwhelming number of patents being infringed."
- cutler 8y agoI vaguely recall Google making noises about taking-on Microsoft's over their patent mafia tactics but it seem nothing came of it.
- joezydeco 8y agoAfter seeing this I think the Amazon AWS/FreeRTOS combo is looking like the better architecture for a node solution. FreeRTOS can run on lowly M3s at 120Mhz, like the LPC2478. A 500MHz A7 part is way too much silicon for an IoT node. How much external SDRAM and Flash are connected to that MediaTek core?
- kbenson 8y ago> After seeing this I think the Amazon AWS/FreeRTOS combo is looking like the better architecture for a node solution. FreeRTOS can run on lowly M3s at 120Mhz, like the LPC2478 Is that supposed to imply linux can't? Or that linux plus a GNU subsystem can't? I've personally run it on a lot lower end hardware than that seems to be.
- joezydeco 8y agoOh, it can. I've run ucLinux (MMU-less Linux) on an LPC1788 (Cortex-M3) and it works...okay. Making dynamic libraries work correctly on it is a pain in the ass. It just wasn't worth it at the end and the O/S hogged up most of the processor, RAM, and Flash.
- anujdeshpande 8y agoExactly. I think these end up as good PoCs - and it would be amazing to think of a future where we can run one of the Linux derivatives on a something that was designed with FreeRTOS or equivalent in mind - but it's just not going to happen on a commercial scale in my opinion.
- joezydeco 8y agoARM Linux isn't really slimming down, so the chips need to grow to catch up. You're starting to see devices like the Renesas RZ/A1H that has 10MiB of SDRAM on the die and can boot Linux out of a single cheap QSPI memory part.
- dpeckett 8y ago
- progval 8y ago> Windows IoT runs on microprocessor units (MPUs) which have at least 100x the power of the MCU. > MediaTek is producing the first set of these new MCUs. These are low-powered, single-core ARM-A7 systems that run at 500MHz Er... what kind of hardware is Windows IoT supposed to run on?
- arnarbi 8y agoThey seem either confused about what "MCU" means, or intent on changing the commonly accepted meaning.
- anujdeshpande 8y agoI think its a marketing thing. Engineers wouldn't have let this one slide. My professors at college taught a simple rule of thumb - if it can't run regular Linux it's probably a MCU. Finer print talked about the presence of a MMU being the key differentiator. I've stuck to that definition so far. Might have to rewire if this gimmick catches on
- nunez 8y agoGood choice. Windows is too fat for IoT as is.
- NiveaGeForce 8y agoIt's not.
- nunez 8y agoElaborate?
- jacksmith21006 8y agoMaybe driven by http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-we-are-slower-than-other-oper/ http://blog.zorinaq.com/i-contribute-to-the-windows-kernel-w... "I Contribute to the Windows Kernel. We Are Slower Than Other ...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ifdefdebug 8y agoAlways nice to remember: "If Microsoft ever does applications for Linux it means I've won." [1] [1] http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9810/01/whylinux.idg/ http://edition.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9810/01/whylinux.idg/
- johnhenry 8y agoSo, I guess Linus super-wins?
- ccozan 8y agoThere is an 80% chance that you are carrying a Linux kernel powered device in your pocket right now. I think is a undisputed win.
- romanovcode 8y agoNot for so long tho. Fuchsia is not linux.
- afroboy 8y agoAnd how many did Google abandon it's hyped projects?
- romanovcode 8y agoVery doubtful they will abandon this project. This way they have full control over everything googleOS so they can spy more on what you do which is their endgame goal.
- ccozan 8y agoThis is very thin ice. The kernel is far from "spying" a user, unless Google wants to track my syscalls.
- Antifragile1 8y ago
- rusabd 8y agoIf you didn't know Microsoft used to have its own version of Unix a long time ago: Xenix. Never seen it personally though, my first experience with PC was MSDOS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenix
- pjmlp 8y agoIt was kind of ok. That is how I learned UNIX back in the day. As anecdote, given the UNIX prices even for PCs, the teacher would carry a PC with Xenix into our lab and then each group would have about 20 minute turns to test what was already prepared typing on MS-DOS. This is why getting a C compiler for MS-DOS mattered to many of us, we wanted to maximize our slot as much as possible, it wasn't about its qualities.
- antoniuschan99 8y agoIs this a 'fork' of an ARM/MediaTek chip? I'm currently on the Espressif platform for our stack. How does it compare overall and in terms of security?
- anujdeshpande 8y agoHow are you finding the Espressif stack?
- antoniuschan99 8y agoIt's not bad. Pretty stable. It still feels very much for the hobbyist though.
- sandGorgon 8y agoIt would have been much better if they had thrown their weight behind Android Things ( https://developer.android.com/things/index.html https://developer.android.com/things/index.html) Maybe build an open foundation around it like Kubernetes CNCF. Google is surprisingly open to build democratic orgs around its tech.
- amiraliakbari 8y agoAs long as Google is controlling AOSP by all means to lock users in Google services, it can't be trusted to control another fundamental platform.
- pavbelshippable 8y agoThis is going to be amazing. Microsoft always comes up with such cool ideas. Now its kernel for IoT.
- amq 8y agoIn my understanding, MCUs are more like ARM M, with 40MHz and 128KB RAM. But this thing is closer to rpi, with 500MHz, so I wonder what is the power consumption.
- u04f061 8y agoMicrosoft is becoming the cool company once again by embracing open-source technologies and contributing to various other OS projects. They are refocusing their business all around Azure subscriptions.
- nkkollaw 8y agoI would switch to Windows in a heartbeat if they dropped NT and switched to becoming a Linux distro with a Windows emululator for legacy apps.
- NiveaGeForce 8y agoThat would be a downgrade.
- nkkollaw 8y agoReally? Even just the file locking would make it an upgrade, since it would allow you to avoid restaring your PC after upgrades like 30 years ago. What makes Windows internals superior to Unix-based systems?
- ddingus 8y agoAgreed.
- NiveaGeForce 8y agoSee http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.the.desktop.current.html http://itvision.altervista.org/why.linux.is.not.ready.for.th...
- raimue 8y ago[deleted]
- hoschicz 8y agoThose were made by Intel.
- raimue 8y agoAbsolute brainfart by me. Need more coffee.
- patrickaljord 8y agoNot only that but any company shipping Linux in IoT (or really any kind of hardware) usually compiles its own Linux kernel with needed custom modules. Not sure how this is news besides the IoT thing.
- mangecoeur 8y agoCurrent weather in hell: chilly ;)
- wicket 8y agoMeanwhile, The Linux Foundation decided that Linux isn't suitable and developed Zephyr [1] instead for IoT. [1] https://www.zephyrproject.org/ https://www.zephyrproject.org/
- igravious 8y agoOh. Ha, wow. This is too delicious. Who would ever have thought that Microsoft, the great enemy of Linux, would release a product based around a Microsoft branded Linux kernel? Not I for one. Though having said that they have been increasingly opening up and making non-threatening noises towards open source of late. So, it's not _that_ much of a shock but it's still a shock! Microsoft is using Linux for IOT embedded devices, wow. And then you point out that simultaneously the Linux Foundation, the Linux Foundation, is supporting a non-Linux kernel real-time OS for IOT embedded devices. You could not make this stuff up.
- choudanu4 8y agoBut I was under the impression that Linux isn't suitable as a real-time operating system (RTOS)[1] (which Microsoft may very well not require for their IoT systems). So the Linux Foundation providing an alternative free kernel meeting RTOS requirements makes perfect sense. I'm not as clear on the history, but was Linux ever pitched as capable of being real-time OS? I don't think so. The hard requirements for real-time generally lead to very different systems than general-purpose operating systems. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_operating_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_operating_system
- jwildeboer 8y agoMaybe I'm just unable to look at the right places, but where is the source code repository?
- mattkevan 8y agoEmbrace, extend.. and extinguish!
- RMarcus 8y agoThe move does seem rather troubling, considering the history of Microsoft. Linux seems like it's a little too big for "extinguish," and th GPLv2 should provide some defense against nefarious "extend"ing... But then again, I wonder how many now-defunct open standards and projects thought the same thing.
- iceman2654 8y agoThis was my first thought based on the history and culture of the company. I'll be watching this development closely. The optimistic side of me hopes embracing Linux marks a real change in Microsoft, but we'll have to wait and see.
- muyuu 8y agoIsn't OSS grand?