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If one takes out all of the defensive posturing (entire paragraph explaining that Twitter, LinkedIn, Amazon, and Google all do the same thing), and the intentio

If one takes out all of the defensive posturing (entire paragraph explaining that Twitter, LinkedIn, Amazon, and Google all do the same thing), and the intentionally simplified (cookies, which are identifiers that websites use to know if you’ve visited before), we are left with this: Facebook tracks virtually every website you visit, as well as usage data from many apps, even if you aren't logged in to facebook or don't have an account. We use this data, and tie it to your identity whenever possible, so we can charge advertisers more money.

jdp23 9y ago
Good summary!
alexandercrohde 9y ago
And even if they claimed exactly otherwise, I wouldn't trust them. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done at this point to undo that distrust.
- rock_hard 9y ago
  You should ask yourself the question whether it was Facebook or the media that made you distrust Facebook. Because I can’t recall a single instance of when Facebook or Zuck lied to the public... but I recall plenty of lies the media has spread about Facebook
  - alexandercrohde 9y ago
    Someone doesn't have to lie to lose your trust.
IshKebab 9y ago
Yeah when you put it like that it sounds bad, but Facebook really are right that literally every other advertiser on the planet does exactly the same thing. Honestly I think the bigger issue is that Facebook tracks you on third party sites when you are logged in to Facebook - in those cases they easily know your exact identity. Most advertisers can't do that. Google could, but I'm not sure if they do or not.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
vinchuco 9y ago
It's like having a camera pointed at your neighbor's house, but a company's neighbor is the whole internet.
jrochkind1 9y ago
to be fair, I think it is worth educating people that facebook definitely isn't the only actor doing this. It is pervasive.
mhneu 9y ago
"Surveillance capitalism" https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/03/facebook_and_ca.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/03/facebook_and_... Bruce Schneier's article on this is well worth reading - he takes a broad view of issues both with Facebook but also with the wider industry. And he discusses it from a perspective of societal benefit and harm, which I think is useful. ----- But for every article about Facebook's creepy stalker behavior, thousands of other companies are breathing a collective sigh of relief that it's Facebook and not them in the spotlight. Because while Facebook is one of the biggest players in this space, there are thousands of other companies that spy on and manipulate us for profit. Harvard Business School professor Shoshana Zuboff calls it "surveillance capitalism." And as creepy as Facebook is turning out to be, the entire industry is far creepier. It has existed in secret far too long, and it's up to lawmakers to force these companies into the public spotlight, where we can all decide if this is how we want society to operate and -- if not -- what to do about it. There are 2,500 to 4,000 data brokers in the United States whose business is buying and selling our personal data. Last year, Equifax was in the news when hackers stole personal information on 150 million people, including Social Security numbers, birth dates, addresses, and driver's license numbers. You certainly didn't give it permission to collect any of that information. Equifax is one of those thousands of data brokers, most of them you've never heard of, selling your personal information without your knowledge or consent to pretty much anyone who will pay for it. Surveillance capitalism takes this one step further. Companies like Facebook and Google offer you free services in exchange for your data. Google's surveillance isn't in the news, but it's startlingly intimate. We never lie to our search engines. Our interests and curiosities, hopes and fears, desires and sexual proclivities, are all collected and saved. Add to that the websites we visit that Google tracks through its advertising network, our Gmail accounts, our movements via Google Maps, and what it can collect from our smartphones.
- erobbins 9y ago
  And unlike facebook, Equifax DOES sell/license your personal data to third parties. I worked somewhere that bought it.
spike021 9y ago
I mean, I interviewed with a company last week for a software engineer role. I won't name names, but I was basically told a bit more about what they do, and the idea was "we track customers across shop websites to see what items they prefer, what types of items, how often, color, etc. etc., and build relations between all of these attributes to help surface more of what the customer wants to buy." And here I was thinking people the past month or so are putting FB at the forefront of the conversation about the use of what should be private data, when there are already companies doing this everywhere on the Internet. Any typical website with a storefront (Macy's, GAP, etc.) track what you buy, when, why, etc. It's definitely about more than Facebook. I don't blame FB PR for making sure to explain other companies are using your data and basically manipulating you with it.
- bpchaps 9y ago
  I had an interview once with a company that essentially wrote tracking libraries for Starbucks's app. Everything you mentioned in your post is pretty much exactly what the app did. Their nonchalance around their extent of tracking was chilling to say the least.
- saganus 9y ago
  I think the difference that is pointed-out most of the time is the scale at which FB operates. Even if other sites are doing (fundamentally) the same, they probably don't have such a clear and overarching picture as FB does. I don't disagree with you though. Having most sites track you sucks.
  - spike021 9y ago
    I mostly agree that the scale of a system like FB makes its impact far greater. But on the other hand, any company that can admit to controlling (at least in part) a person's interests, choices of purchases, etc. control a significant more of a person than you'd think. Said person thinks they're making the decision themselves, but in reality they're being prodded in a certain direction. When they make a purchase and use the item, others see, and they might also be influenced as a third party, and so on. I'd say it's pretty dangerous, but it tends to be overlooked.
downandout 9y ago
>Facebook tracks virtually every website you visit Is that true though? Many sites have Facebook share buttons that don’t actually load anything from Facebook unless you use them - they use a locally hosted button (I do this on my own sites, and got the idea from seeing it on so many other sites). I don’t see like buttons (which are directly loaded from Facebook) with anywhere near the frequency I once did either. In fact, the like button is only used on 0.5% of the world’s websites [1]. Even the Facebook pixel, a common target of the scorn of privacy advocates, is only in use on ~12% of the top 1 million sites [2]. 12% is hardly “virtually every website you visit”. It’s pretty alarmist to say that. [1] https://trends.builtwith.com/widgets/Facebook-Like-Button https://trends.builtwith.com/widgets/Facebook-Like-Button [2] https://trends.builtwith.com/analytics/Facebook-Pixel https://trends.builtwith.com/analytics/Facebook-Pixel
- notyourwork 9y ago
  I'd like to see traffic distribution against the sites which use facebook. I suspect your p90 for all traffic is against a large proportion of sites that use these and thus "virtually" every site in fact is closer to true than your raw numbers.
  - downandout 9y ago
    Well that’s a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Most sites that pay to advertise on Facebook are going to use the pixel for retargeting and conversion tracking. But only 25% of the Quantcast Top 10k sites use the pixel, and the number for the whole Internet is 0.4%. I wouldn’t say that anywhere near most of my browsing originates from Facebook ads...in fact I’m not entirely sure I have ever clicked on one except to view competitors’ landing pages. I’m guessing that most other people don’t limit the sites they visit to those they are shown in paid Facebook ads either. So the overall numbers are extremely relevant.
    - notyourwork 9y ago
      You missed my point. I’m suggesting that the 75th percentile of traffic goes to sites that probably have Facebook integrated via like button, ads, auth. (Way that fb can track you.) Therefore most traffic on internet is traceable. Key being traffic not count of sites in my analysis.
smsm42 9y ago
> Facebook tracks virtually every website you visit That have placed Facebook buttons or analytics code on their site, which Facebook has no way of forcing anybody to do. So if you don't like sites giving Facebook your info, maybe you should raise this question with those sites?
- gowld 9y ago
  and if someone sells you poisoned food, maybe you should raise this question with that vendor, instead of advocating for nationwide safety standards?
  - throwajay14727 9y ago
    if someone uses emotionally charged but utterly inapplicable rhetoric to persuade you, should you dismiss them out of hand? poisoned food indeed
  - smsm42 9y ago
    If they bought from a poison vendor and then sold it to me as food, then definitely they are to blame and "safety standards" have nothing to do with it - they knew what they are buying and selling, it's not some kind of mistake or accident. Facebook buttons and tracking scripts didn't just seep into sites by accident because of poorly maintained seals or rusty firewalls and weren't fraudulently sneaked in by spies sent by Facebook - they were deliberately installed by site admins, because they wanted to install this precise code, with full knowledge of what it is for. Site admins bear responsibility for them.
- realusername 9y ago
  Non-technical people don't necessary know that adding a Facebook button means tracking people. Because it's the complete opposite of common sense, Facebook buttons to a non-technical users are just buttons, and Facebook could have built them that way too.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    > Non-technical people don't necessary know that adding a Facebook button means tracking people. They should then hire people who understand it, or not put these buttons on their sites. Docs for FB pixel say: You can use the Facebook pixel to understand the actions people are taking on your website and reach audiences you care about. "Understand actions" means tracking. Who is doing the tracking? Well, it's called Facebook pixel, how many guesses does one need to get that one? Pretty much all other FB gadgets download content from Facebook. If site owner doesn't understand that means tracking by Facebook, maybe they need to educate themselves or ask for advice before blindly copypasting third-party content into their site? Facebook button is way not the worst thing one may copypaste from the internet... I think though they realize it and they are completely ok with it, in exchange for the traffic that gives them. > Because it's the complete opposite of common sense, No, it's not - if you put a Facebook button on your site, you are bringing Facebook into your relationship with your site visitors. Then you learn Facebook is part of that relationship - what a surprise! Come on. If you don't want FB as part of the deal, don't invite them in.
cybervegan 9y ago
Thanks for summarising, because I can't see the actual article, because I applied the fb blackhole list to my /etc/hosts, for exactly this reason.
lifeformed 9y ago
Is this possible if you are using something like ublock and/or ghostery?
B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago
> or don't have an account. We use this data And should stop that. Because not the police.
iuguy 9y ago
I'm arguing with Facebook about getting access to the data they have from tracking me as opposed to what's available when you download your profile data at the moment, having closed my account a while back. I'm literally waiting for the day that GDPR comes into force to exercise my right to be forgotten.
- piqalq 9y ago
  How’s that going? I was pretty surprised when I’d downloaded my data to see they hadn’t given me so much of what I know they have...
  - iuguy 9y ago
    Pretty badly to be honest[1], seems like their local data protection authority is Ireland, who like to sit on their hands. That's partly why I'm waiting. [1] - http://www.europe-v-facebook.org/EN/Get_your_Data_/get_your_data_.html http://www.europe-v-facebook.org/EN/Get_your_Data_/get_your_...
    - piqalq 9y ago
      Are you simply wanting to see your data, or do you want it deleted? After GDPR comes in I’m going to be looking into the latter.
      - iuguy 9y ago
        Both. I want to: 1. See what data they hold. 2. Have it deleted. 3. Formally withdraw consent to the collection of future data. 4. Follow it up in 6-12 months with a subject access request.
  - rmc 9y ago
    I have heard that the facebook "download your data" feature on the website does not give you all the personal data they hold. For that you need to contact them directly (maybe a letter), and quote data protection law to them.
_o_ 9y ago
At the begining of the year there was a huge roar about the GDPR. Now it finally becomes more understandable by everyone why EU has created it. And quite frankly, rest of the world will need to start pushing for the same or even harsher legislation. Companies has pushed the whole thing too far :( GDPR will to large amount take care about 3rd party tracking based on two things: the consent needs to be given for each and every 3rd party tracker site before it is loaded and another thing is that the website owner will be held liable if 3rd party provider will abuse the data without consent or use it for non stated purpose (sell it to someone else f.i.). If you are more interested into details, here is an excelent explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-stjktAu-7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-stjktAu-7k
fishmeat 9y ago
>Facebook tracks virtually every website you visit How can I know that I'm infected? How to disinfect myself and feed them false info?
fancyfacebook 9y ago
I'm so tired of every corporation comparing themselves to others to justify everything. "Well GE hid losses for decades with fradulent accounting so we can too!" How about just stop exploiting a technically illiterate government that is incapable of regulating you? You know when you're doing it, everyone working on an analytics engine knows exactly what the fuck they are doing, trust me. How about you just stop?

jdp23 9y ago

Good summary!

alexandercrohde 9y ago

And even if they claimed exactly otherwise, I wouldn't trust them. I'm not sure there's anything that can be done at this point to undo that distrust.

rock_hard 9y ago
You should ask yourself the question whether it was Facebook or the media that made you distrust Facebook. Because I can’t recall a single instance of when Facebook or Zuck lied to the public... but I recall plenty of lies the media has spread about Facebook
- alexandercrohde 9y ago
  Someone doesn't have to lie to lose your trust.

IshKebab 9y ago

Yeah when you put it like that it sounds bad, but Facebook really are right that literally every other advertiser on the planet does exactly the same thing. Honestly I think the bigger issue is that Facebook tracks you on third party sites when you are logged in to Facebook - in those cases they easily know your exact identity. Most advertisers can't do that. Google could, but I'm not sure if they do or not.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

vinchuco 9y ago

It's like having a camera pointed at your neighbor's house, but a company's neighbor is the whole internet.

jrochkind1 9y ago

to be fair, I think it is worth educating people that facebook definitely isn't the only actor doing this. It is pervasive.

mhneu 9y ago

"Surveillance capitalism" https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/03/facebook_and_ca.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2018/03/facebook_and_... Bruce Schneier's article on this is well worth reading - he takes a broad view of issues both with Facebook but also with the wider industry. And he discusses it from a perspective of societal benefit and harm, which I think is useful. ----- But for every article about Facebook's creepy stalker behavior, thousands of other companies are breathing a collective sigh of relief that it's Facebook and not them in the spotlight. Because while Facebook is one of the biggest players in this space, there are thousands of other companies that spy on and manipulate us for profit. Harvard Business School professor Shoshana Zuboff calls it "surveillance capitalism." And as creepy as Facebook is turning out to be, the entire industry is far creepier. It has existed in secret far too long, and it's up to lawmakers to force these companies into the public spotlight, where we can all decide if this is how we want society to operate and -- if not -- what to do about it. There are 2,500 to 4,000 data brokers in the United States whose business is buying and selling our personal data. Last year, Equifax was in the news when hackers stole personal information on 150 million people, including Social Security numbers, birth dates, addresses, and driver's license numbers. You certainly didn't give it permission to collect any of that information. Equifax is one of those thousands of data brokers, most of them you've never heard of, selling your personal information without your knowledge or consent to pretty much anyone who will pay for it. Surveillance capitalism takes this one step further. Companies like Facebook and Google offer you free services in exchange for your data. Google's surveillance isn't in the news, but it's startlingly intimate. We never lie to our search engines. Our interests and curiosities, hopes and fears, desires and sexual proclivities, are all collected and saved. Add to that the websites we visit that Google tracks through its advertising network, our Gmail accounts, our movements via Google Maps, and what it can collect from our smartphones.

erobbins 9y ago
And unlike facebook, Equifax DOES sell/license your personal data to third parties. I worked somewhere that bought it.

spike021 9y ago

I mean, I interviewed with a company last week for a software engineer role. I won't name names, but I was basically told a bit more about what they do, and the idea was "we track customers across shop websites to see what items they prefer, what types of items, how often, color, etc. etc., and build relations between all of these attributes to help surface more of what the customer wants to buy." And here I was thinking people the past month or so are putting FB at the forefront of the conversation about the use of what should be private data, when there are already companies doing this everywhere on the Internet. Any typical website with a storefront (Macy's, GAP, etc.) track what you buy, when, why, etc. It's definitely about more than Facebook. I don't blame FB PR for making sure to explain other companies are using your data and basically manipulating you with it.

bpchaps 9y ago
I had an interview once with a company that essentially wrote tracking libraries for Starbucks's app. Everything you mentioned in your post is pretty much exactly what the app did. Their nonchalance around their extent of tracking was chilling to say the least.
saganus 9y ago
I think the difference that is pointed-out most of the time is the scale at which FB operates. Even if other sites are doing (fundamentally) the same, they probably don't have such a clear and overarching picture as FB does. I don't disagree with you though. Having most sites track you sucks.
- spike021 9y ago
  I mostly agree that the scale of a system like FB makes its impact far greater. But on the other hand, any company that can admit to controlling (at least in part) a person's interests, choices of purchases, etc. control a significant more of a person than you'd think. Said person thinks they're making the decision themselves, but in reality they're being prodded in a certain direction. When they make a purchase and use the item, others see, and they might also be influenced as a third party, and so on. I'd say it's pretty dangerous, but it tends to be overlooked.

downandout 9y ago

>Facebook tracks virtually every website you visit Is that true though? Many sites have Facebook share buttons that don’t actually load anything from Facebook unless you use them - they use a locally hosted button (I do this on my own sites, and got the idea from seeing it on so many other sites). I don’t see like buttons (which are directly loaded from Facebook) with anywhere near the frequency I once did either. In fact, the like button is only used on 0.5% of the world’s websites [1]. Even the Facebook pixel, a common target of the scorn of privacy advocates, is only in use on ~12% of the top 1 million sites [2]. 12% is hardly “virtually every website you visit”. It’s pretty alarmist to say that. [1] https://trends.builtwith.com/widgets/Facebook-Like-Button https://trends.builtwith.com/widgets/Facebook-Like-Button [2] https://trends.builtwith.com/analytics/Facebook-Pixel https://trends.builtwith.com/analytics/Facebook-Pixel

notyourwork 9y ago
I'd like to see traffic distribution against the sites which use facebook. I suspect your p90 for all traffic is against a large proportion of sites that use these and thus "virtually" every site in fact is closer to true than your raw numbers.
- downandout 9y ago
  Well that’s a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Most sites that pay to advertise on Facebook are going to use the pixel for retargeting and conversion tracking. But only 25% of the Quantcast Top 10k sites use the pixel, and the number for the whole Internet is 0.4%. I wouldn’t say that anywhere near most of my browsing originates from Facebook ads...in fact I’m not entirely sure I have ever clicked on one except to view competitors’ landing pages. I’m guessing that most other people don’t limit the sites they visit to those they are shown in paid Facebook ads either. So the overall numbers are extremely relevant.
  - notyourwork 9y ago
    You missed my point. I’m suggesting that the 75th percentile of traffic goes to sites that probably have Facebook integrated via like button, ads, auth. (Way that fb can track you.) Therefore most traffic on internet is traceable. Key being traffic not count of sites in my analysis.

smsm42 9y ago

> Facebook tracks virtually every website you visit That have placed Facebook buttons or analytics code on their site, which Facebook has no way of forcing anybody to do. So if you don't like sites giving Facebook your info, maybe you should raise this question with those sites?

gowld 9y ago
and if someone sells you poisoned food, maybe you should raise this question with that vendor, instead of advocating for nationwide safety standards?
- throwajay14727 9y ago
  if someone uses emotionally charged but utterly inapplicable rhetoric to persuade you, should you dismiss them out of hand? poisoned food indeed
- smsm42 9y ago
  If they bought from a poison vendor and then sold it to me as food, then definitely they are to blame and "safety standards" have nothing to do with it - they knew what they are buying and selling, it's not some kind of mistake or accident. Facebook buttons and tracking scripts didn't just seep into sites by accident because of poorly maintained seals or rusty firewalls and weren't fraudulently sneaked in by spies sent by Facebook - they were deliberately installed by site admins, because they wanted to install this precise code, with full knowledge of what it is for. Site admins bear responsibility for them.
realusername 9y ago
Non-technical people don't necessary know that adding a Facebook button means tracking people. Because it's the complete opposite of common sense, Facebook buttons to a non-technical users are just buttons, and Facebook could have built them that way too.
- smsm42 9y ago
  > Non-technical people don't necessary know that adding a Facebook button means tracking people. They should then hire people who understand it, or not put these buttons on their sites. Docs for FB pixel say: You can use the Facebook pixel to understand the actions people are taking on your website and reach audiences you care about. "Understand actions" means tracking. Who is doing the tracking? Well, it's called Facebook pixel, how many guesses does one need to get that one? Pretty much all other FB gadgets download content from Facebook. If site owner doesn't understand that means tracking by Facebook, maybe they need to educate themselves or ask for advice before blindly copypasting third-party content into their site? Facebook button is way not the worst thing one may copypaste from the internet... I think though they realize it and they are completely ok with it, in exchange for the traffic that gives them. > Because it's the complete opposite of common sense, No, it's not - if you put a Facebook button on your site, you are bringing Facebook into your relationship with your site visitors. Then you learn Facebook is part of that relationship - what a surprise! Come on. If you don't want FB as part of the deal, don't invite them in.

cybervegan 9y ago

Thanks for summarising, because I can't see the actual article, because I applied the fb blackhole list to my /etc/hosts, for exactly this reason.

lifeformed 9y ago

Is this possible if you are using something like ublock and/or ghostery?

B1FF_PSUVM 9y ago

> or don't have an account. We use this data And should stop that. Because not the police.

iuguy 9y ago

I'm arguing with Facebook about getting access to the data they have from tracking me as opposed to what's available when you download your profile data at the moment, having closed my account a while back. I'm literally waiting for the day that GDPR comes into force to exercise my right to be forgotten.

piqalq 9y ago
How’s that going? I was pretty surprised when I’d downloaded my data to see they hadn’t given me so much of what I know they have...
- iuguy 9y ago
  Pretty badly to be honest[1], seems like their local data protection authority is Ireland, who like to sit on their hands. That's partly why I'm waiting. [1] - http://www.europe-v-facebook.org/EN/Get_your_Data_/get_your_data_.html http://www.europe-v-facebook.org/EN/Get_your_Data_/get_your_...
  - piqalq 9y ago
    Are you simply wanting to see your data, or do you want it deleted? After GDPR comes in I’m going to be looking into the latter.
    - iuguy 9y ago
      Both. I want to: 1. See what data they hold. 2. Have it deleted. 3. Formally withdraw consent to the collection of future data. 4. Follow it up in 6-12 months with a subject access request.
- rmc 9y ago
  I have heard that the facebook "download your data" feature on the website does not give you all the personal data they hold. For that you need to contact them directly (maybe a letter), and quote data protection law to them.

_o_ 9y ago

At the begining of the year there was a huge roar about the GDPR. Now it finally becomes more understandable by everyone why EU has created it. And quite frankly, rest of the world will need to start pushing for the same or even harsher legislation. Companies has pushed the whole thing too far :( GDPR will to large amount take care about 3rd party tracking based on two things: the consent needs to be given for each and every 3rd party tracker site before it is loaded and another thing is that the website owner will be held liable if 3rd party provider will abuse the data without consent or use it for non stated purpose (sell it to someone else f.i.). If you are more interested into details, here is an excelent explanation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-stjktAu-7k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-stjktAu-7k

fishmeat 9y ago

>Facebook tracks virtually every website you visit How can I know that I'm infected? How to disinfect myself and feed them false info?

fancyfacebook 9y ago

I'm so tired of every corporation comparing themselves to others to justify everything. "Well GE hid losses for decades with fradulent accounting so we can too!" How about just stop exploiting a technically illiterate government that is incapable of regulating you? You know when you're doing it, everyone working on an analytics engine knows exactly what the fuck they are doing, trust me. How about you just stop?