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> If they want to change history to help a privileged group of people, they should have a generalized mechanism and process for doing so. Maybe I am just blind

> If they want to change history to help a privileged group of people, they should have a generalized mechanism and process for doing so. Maybe I am just blind and a luddite, but if such generalized mechanism and process would exisit, what would be the difference to the current government and fiat based system? Admittably, I am astonished that after the DAO mess this smart contract thing is still alive. You can either have code as law, or you can have law as law. Not both. And obviously "code as law" was something these people did not like, so what on earth there is left for smart contracts?

Analemma_ 8y ago
There wouldn’t be one (and indeed, there isn’t one): ETH is now just a shitty clone of the current fiat banking system, but with even less transparency and more corruption (and to put the cherry on it, it’s an environmental catastrophe to boot). It’ll be a few more years before the starry-eyed libertarians figure that out though.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  You don't see a difference between banks that undo transactions constantly, and a system that might undo one or two a year?
  - tigershark 8y ago
    You don’t see a difference between a regulated system in a state were people are sovereign and one system where the people at the top of it can do whatever they want? It’s kind of sad to see a lot of people enjoying fascism barely 70 years after the most terrible war to date...
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      > You don’t see a difference I don't know how to reply to this. That's the opposite of what I said. > It’s kind of sad to see a lot of people enjoying I hope you're not talking about me, because I wasn't expressing a preference between entire systems. I was just pointing out a single aspect. (If you must know, I think having a court system is best, but having the EIP system is better than nothing.) It's confusing to see my comment go from a positive score to negative while replies show up all agreeing with me...
  - aianus 8y ago
    Not just undoing them; if my bank's ML fraud algorithm doesn't like my purchase, it won't let me make it at all! And the customer service rep doesn't know why it's happening and tells me he can't override it and "could I please stop using www.grabtaxi.com" Happens to me multiple times a year, it's unbelievably bad.
    - kalleboo 8y ago
      That sounds unacceptable, why haven't you changed banks?!
      - aianus 8y ago
        I am with a different bank now, but previously the bank above (Chase) was the only bank in Canada that offered foreign transactions without an annual fee or a 2.5% currency conversion fee.
  - beefield 8y ago
    Disclaimer: I do not recall my bank undoing my transaction. Ever, that is. But, yes, I assume that banks do undo transactions somewhat regularly. And I do see a difference. With regards to the banks, there are regulatory bodies with necessary tools to oversee banks and force (of course, they do fail occasionally...) them to behave properly. With Ethereum, there is no such body, but I am expected to trust a bunch of people who claim to have developed a currency which requires no trust. The oxymoron in the last sentence is in itself enough for me to prefer banks, thank you very much.
    - profalseidol 8y ago
      > but I am expected to trust a bunch of people who claim to have developed a currency which requires no trust It does require trust just as you require trust from the seeders/peers of a BitTorrent shared file. If these seeders/peers agree that they should modify the said file, you either agree with them or not. If latter, then you end up with a two versions.
      - beefield 8y ago
        I don't recall "trustless" being one of bittorrent's main selling points? Further, to accept crypto as payment very much requires trust (or faith or belief or whatever you want to call it) that you later find some third party that is willing to accept your coins as payment, preferably with roughly the same value that you assigned to it in the first place. Awfully lot of trust flying around in a trustless system in my opinion.
        profalseidol 8y ago
        You'll have to understand that the trust in 'trustless system' is in the technical sense. Think of traditional RDBMS versus blockchain for sharing data between two companies. The former needs trust because it is mutable and controlled by an admin. The latter is more designed to be 'trustless'. I hope your technical ability helps me here in conveying my point to you.
  - nradov 8y ago
    Undoing transactions is one of the most useful features of real banks. It helps prevent fraud.
    - Sangermaine 8y ago
      Yeah, people arguing against this are so far removed from what the vast majority of people want that it's not really possible to have a discussion with them. Most people like that you can have your bank or credit card company hold or reverse a suspicious transaction, and don't regard that as evil statist chains of slavery.
  - Sangermaine 8y ago
    >You don't see a difference between banks that undo transactions constantly You should use a different bank if this is actually true. This is not a common experience.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      Some bounced checks, most fake checks, all chargebacks... I don't have to experience these personally to know there is a vast landscape of transactions that get unraveled days to months later. Some of these benefit the consumer, and some hurt the consumer. But they apply to all banks.
thinkloop 8y ago
There are no absolutes. Is Bitcoin decentralized? Sure, but not 100%, not every human has perfectly equal say and ability in its functioning - but it is much more decentralized than other systems and that has value. Smart contracts are similarly high on the code-is-law spectrum relative to other systems. Day-to-day transactions are near perfectly transparent, predictable and repeatable. Changes require highly visible and discussed EIPs or similar. As time goes on and lessons are learned they will likely increase in desired qualities, never fully achieving them, always in a state of pursuit.
- beefield 8y ago
  > but it is much more decentralized than other systems By which measure? There are more than six thousand banks[1] in US, all of which are perfectly capable to create significant amounts of USD currency. My understanding is that even if the number of Bitcoin miners may be higher, it is still much more concentrated to a hand of a few pools. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_the_United_States#Active_banks_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_the_United_States#A...
  - thinkloop 8y ago
    Generally the central bank dictates the money supply through interest rates. Miners do not wield all the power, it is a dance between miners, economic nodes, developers and finally users. If those stakeholders are not on board it is unlikely for changes to occur. Pools are different from being a single entity. If a thousand miners pooled together to lower their earnings volatility, that is much more decentralized than if one person owned a thousand miners. The individuals can choose to leave the pool or switch at any time. The pool is only a temporary agent. The transactability of crypto is much more decentralized. In traditional banking you must ask for permission to send your money from one bank to another to eventually reach the intended recipient. In crypto it is peer-to-peer. The US has a decent amount of banks, other countries like Canada do not, countries like Venezuela centrally destroyed their currency.
    - orbifold 8y ago

Analemma_ 8y ago

There wouldn’t be one (and indeed, there isn’t one): ETH is now just a shitty clone of the current fiat banking system, but with even less transparency and more corruption (and to put the cherry on it, it’s an environmental catastrophe to boot). It’ll be a few more years before the starry-eyed libertarians figure that out though.

Dylan16807 8y ago
You don't see a difference between banks that undo transactions constantly, and a system that might undo one or two a year?
- tigershark 8y ago
  You don’t see a difference between a regulated system in a state were people are sovereign and one system where the people at the top of it can do whatever they want? It’s kind of sad to see a lot of people enjoying fascism barely 70 years after the most terrible war to date...
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    > You don’t see a difference I don't know how to reply to this. That's the opposite of what I said. > It’s kind of sad to see a lot of people enjoying I hope you're not talking about me, because I wasn't expressing a preference between entire systems. I was just pointing out a single aspect. (If you must know, I think having a court system is best, but having the EIP system is better than nothing.) It's confusing to see my comment go from a positive score to negative while replies show up all agreeing with me...
- aianus 8y ago
  Not just undoing them; if my bank's ML fraud algorithm doesn't like my purchase, it won't let me make it at all! And the customer service rep doesn't know why it's happening and tells me he can't override it and "could I please stop using www.grabtaxi.com" Happens to me multiple times a year, it's unbelievably bad.
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    That sounds unacceptable, why haven't you changed banks?!
    - aianus 8y ago
      I am with a different bank now, but previously the bank above (Chase) was the only bank in Canada that offered foreign transactions without an annual fee or a 2.5% currency conversion fee.
- beefield 8y ago
  Disclaimer: I do not recall my bank undoing my transaction. Ever, that is. But, yes, I assume that banks do undo transactions somewhat regularly. And I do see a difference. With regards to the banks, there are regulatory bodies with necessary tools to oversee banks and force (of course, they do fail occasionally...) them to behave properly. With Ethereum, there is no such body, but I am expected to trust a bunch of people who claim to have developed a currency which requires no trust. The oxymoron in the last sentence is in itself enough for me to prefer banks, thank you very much.
  - profalseidol 8y ago
    > but I am expected to trust a bunch of people who claim to have developed a currency which requires no trust It does require trust just as you require trust from the seeders/peers of a BitTorrent shared file. If these seeders/peers agree that they should modify the said file, you either agree with them or not. If latter, then you end up with a two versions.
    - beefield 8y ago
      I don't recall "trustless" being one of bittorrent's main selling points? Further, to accept crypto as payment very much requires trust (or faith or belief or whatever you want to call it) that you later find some third party that is willing to accept your coins as payment, preferably with roughly the same value that you assigned to it in the first place. Awfully lot of trust flying around in a trustless system in my opinion.
      - profalseidol 8y ago
        You'll have to understand that the trust in 'trustless system' is in the technical sense. Think of traditional RDBMS versus blockchain for sharing data between two companies. The former needs trust because it is mutable and controlled by an admin. The latter is more designed to be 'trustless'. I hope your technical ability helps me here in conveying my point to you.
- nradov 8y ago
  Undoing transactions is one of the most useful features of real banks. It helps prevent fraud.
  - Sangermaine 8y ago
    Yeah, people arguing against this are so far removed from what the vast majority of people want that it's not really possible to have a discussion with them. Most people like that you can have your bank or credit card company hold or reverse a suspicious transaction, and don't regard that as evil statist chains of slavery.
- Sangermaine 8y ago
  >You don't see a difference between banks that undo transactions constantly You should use a different bank if this is actually true. This is not a common experience.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    Some bounced checks, most fake checks, all chargebacks... I don't have to experience these personally to know there is a vast landscape of transactions that get unraveled days to months later. Some of these benefit the consumer, and some hurt the consumer. But they apply to all banks.

thinkloop 8y ago

There are no absolutes. Is Bitcoin decentralized? Sure, but not 100%, not every human has perfectly equal say and ability in its functioning - but it is much more decentralized than other systems and that has value. Smart contracts are similarly high on the code-is-law spectrum relative to other systems. Day-to-day transactions are near perfectly transparent, predictable and repeatable. Changes require highly visible and discussed EIPs or similar. As time goes on and lessons are learned they will likely increase in desired qualities, never fully achieving them, always in a state of pursuit.

beefield 8y ago
> but it is much more decentralized than other systems By which measure? There are more than six thousand banks[1] in US, all of which are perfectly capable to create significant amounts of USD currency. My understanding is that even if the number of Bitcoin miners may be higher, it is still much more concentrated to a hand of a few pools. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_the_United_States#Active_banks_of_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banking_in_the_United_States#A...
- thinkloop 8y ago
  Generally the central bank dictates the money supply through interest rates. Miners do not wield all the power, it is a dance between miners, economic nodes, developers and finally users. If those stakeholders are not on board it is unlikely for changes to occur. Pools are different from being a single entity. If a thousand miners pooled together to lower their earnings volatility, that is much more decentralized than if one person owned a thousand miners. The individuals can choose to leave the pool or switch at any time. The pool is only a temporary agent. The transactability of crypto is much more decentralized. In traditional banking you must ask for permission to send your money from one bank to another to eventually reach the intended recipient. In crypto it is peer-to-peer. The US has a decent amount of banks, other countries like Canada do not, countries like Venezuela centrally destroyed their currency.
  - orbifold 8y ago