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Why do you describe this as a metro NYC thing? I feel like every major metro in the USA has similar diners to this? In my experience, Nothing in this article o

Why do you describe this as a metro NYC thing? I feel like every major metro in the USA has similar diners to this? In my experience, Nothing in this article or your comment describe things I’d be hard pressed to find in most big cities.

hprotagonist 9y ago
I have not seen "the new york diner" represented outside of a 60-mile radius of central park, roughly. Western PA, NY south of about Liberty, Stamford area CT, and northern New Jersey have a diner culture which is distinct. I've only ever seen respectable bodegas in new york state, but you can find them as far north as White Plains. I live in New England, spent a bunch of time in the midwest and southwest and pacific northwest, been in the south a little bit. None of those areas do it like this. Pizza is a holy war; bagels -- I'll grant you Montreal.
- kasey_junk 9y ago
  I guess what I’m looking for is what makes a nyc diner. Like how would I know I was in one other than locality to Central Park?
  - hprotagonist 9y ago
    Some promising signs. A lot of these are true for no obvious reason. - open 24 hours, breakfast all day. - At least three industrial-grade bunn coffee makers - waitstaff primarily comprised of middle-aged women and 20-something men of the "working folks" varities. Normally, greek or latino. Normally lifers. Normally gruff but kindly. The owner is likely to be on the floor, and will inevitably be a 50+ year old man, normally chunky, normally greek. - red formica tables are a plus, as are naugahyde stool covers that have seen better days. - chromed steel backsplashes and a bar with round stools that you can sit at. - Gaudy exterior facade, that was last updated in about 1995, featuring (ideally) columns and usually neon signs. - Menu should be big and tall with plastic sheets protecting the paper, ideally edged in fake leather. At least 6 pages long, with an inordinate number of dishes -- of which maybe 5 are ever actually ordered in real life. - A lingering greasy smell of schmaltz and pancakes and hamburgers and singed coffee. - not so much now, but historically, one jukebox per booth - "Diner" in the name, normally also greek references (olympus, zeus, etc.) Bodegas are corner stores with completely forgettable names, the usual selection of beer and drinks and snacks and other gas-station-like foods, a newsstand that actually sells newspapers, normally phone cards or phones and whatnot. Goya foods in abundance. There is also a long grill that makes aforementioned sandwiches, and there is nearly always a cat on the premises.
    - kasey_junk 9y ago
      I repeat, I don’t know that I’ve been in a town in the us over 100k people where you can’t find that. This year I’ve been in diners that match that description in New York, Vancouver, Chicago, St. Louis, Memphis & Atlanta. I think the biggest difference ive seen is whether their ‘greek’ menu is supplemented by Jewish/southern/polish/German food.
    - ryanx435 9y ago
      You just described Perkins, a diner chain in the upper Midwest. So basically New York diners are available in rural Iowa?
      - Moto7451 9y ago
        I think good diners are available wherever good food is. My experience is that you’re more hard pressed to find consistently good treatment of vegetables. CA, NY, and anywhere with a good port or agricultural industry is usually ok, but I’ve had some truly sad experiences. Think wilted salads with pancake syrup as the dressing (what... the...). As far as Diners go though, I’m yet to travel somewhere in the US that lacks a good one. 24 hour operating hours is a very LA/NY thing. I’m sure they’re in SF, Chicago, etc but I haven’t spent enough time in those locales to know. Otherwise I’ve had a lot of variable quality food from 24 hour truck stops. Maybe the best was a 24 hour sea food oriented spot in the middle of nowhere Indiana. The worst was the Fosters Freeze on the 10, smack dab in the middle of the LA to Phoenix stretch. Simply horrible.
      - jclem 9y ago
        Oof, it’s definitely not like Perkins at all. Perkins feels like a chain, and the food is far worse than most diners I’ve been a regular of over the years. Good diners have a gestalt that’s difficult to capture by just listing the characteristics of them. Diners are community hubs in a way that places like Perkins can’t typically become (though I won’t deny they have some regulars at least). Take one of my former locals, the somewhat famous Tom’s Restaurant in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn. Google Image Search it and tell me if it feels like a Perkins. There’s a ton of history there that you can only feel when you’re in the diner. When Dr. MLK, Jr. was assassinated, there was unrest in the neighborhood. Tom’s had no security gate, and neighbors (of all races according to reports [and the owner at the time]) locked arms and formed a human chain around the restaurant to protect it from damage. See also this obit of Gus Vlahavas[1], the former owner of Tom’s, who was a face I saw almost every Saturday morning in my early twenties when I lived in the neighborhood. So anyway, that’s my diner spiel. Tom’s is a pretty famous diner with a lot of history, but there are countless others like it in NYC. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/nyregion/gus-vlahavas-owner-of-toms-restaurant-in-brooklyn-dies-at-76.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/nyregion/gus-vlahavas-own...
  - moosebear 9y ago
    I think some people are answering the question, “What are NYC diners _like_?” And it’s confusing to non-New Yorkers because those things do occur everywhere: One can find matzo ball soup and rubbery burgers and formica counters in plenty of major cities. The second question people could answer is, “_Why_ are there ‘NYC diners’?” The answer to _this_ question is the real reason why people are so fond of diners and claim they’re unique to NYC. NYC-style diners thrive in the unique-to-NYC combo of... - true 24-hour foot traffic from the city’s “never sleeps” thing, cars being impractical, and its massive 24-hour (lol, mostly) metro system - an economy that supports individual-owned quirky businesses (for now!) with decades of history - people having to leave their tiny apartments in order not to go mad, so you find more people from all backgrounds using the same few public spaces to relax, and more of these random communities of “regulars” built around nothing other than a shared space - you can be almost whatever you want here and no one will stop you, so we accumulate more glorious eccentrics than elsewhere, and our diners fill up with legendary, cherished characters - you’re often anonymous and lonely here so some people get into the habit of quick intimacy with strangers As the article mentioned, diners are dying out a little in Manhattan. This because it’s getting harder to run a small business here (taxes/expenses/rent), and people might just stay home and watch Netflix to relax rather than go out, among other reasons... But diner fanatics are usually just NYC lovers. I can’t imagine who would love diners but hate the city.
currymj 9y ago
i think a factor is that a lot of New York small businesses, food trucks, etc. buy from the same local suppliers, and because New York is such a big market, it's actually viable for them to only serve one city. The most visible example of this is the blue coffee cups. i'd bet those sausages come from a particular supplier somewhere on Long Island and get sold to many diners in NYC, and that's why they are so distinctive. this is definitely true of the rolls used for the classic sausage-egg-and-cheese-on-a-roll. like, yes, I can buy a breakfast sandwich anywhere in the US, but it will be noticeably different from the New York version, and the New York version will be pretty consistent across many independent bodegas because the ingredients are the same.
- jpindar 9y ago
  You can probably buy a breakfast sandwich anywhere. But unfortunately, you can't buy a buttered roll in New England.
  - currymj 9y ago
    it’s absolutely true, but this kind of statement is why people get so enraged at New Yorkers talking about local food. without context it sounds like you are saying putting butter on a roll is a New York innovation.

hprotagonist 9y ago

I have not seen "the new york diner" represented outside of a 60-mile radius of central park, roughly. Western PA, NY south of about Liberty, Stamford area CT, and northern New Jersey have a diner culture which is distinct. I've only ever seen respectable bodegas in new york state, but you can find them as far north as White Plains. I live in New England, spent a bunch of time in the midwest and southwest and pacific northwest, been in the south a little bit. None of those areas do it like this. Pizza is a holy war; bagels -- I'll grant you Montreal.

kasey_junk 9y ago
I guess what I’m looking for is what makes a nyc diner. Like how would I know I was in one other than locality to Central Park?
- hprotagonist 9y ago
  Some promising signs. A lot of these are true for no obvious reason. - open 24 hours, breakfast all day. - At least three industrial-grade bunn coffee makers - waitstaff primarily comprised of middle-aged women and 20-something men of the "working folks" varities. Normally, greek or latino. Normally lifers. Normally gruff but kindly. The owner is likely to be on the floor, and will inevitably be a 50+ year old man, normally chunky, normally greek. - red formica tables are a plus, as are naugahyde stool covers that have seen better days. - chromed steel backsplashes and a bar with round stools that you can sit at. - Gaudy exterior facade, that was last updated in about 1995, featuring (ideally) columns and usually neon signs. - Menu should be big and tall with plastic sheets protecting the paper, ideally edged in fake leather. At least 6 pages long, with an inordinate number of dishes -- of which maybe 5 are ever actually ordered in real life. - A lingering greasy smell of schmaltz and pancakes and hamburgers and singed coffee. - not so much now, but historically, one jukebox per booth - "Diner" in the name, normally also greek references (olympus, zeus, etc.) Bodegas are corner stores with completely forgettable names, the usual selection of beer and drinks and snacks and other gas-station-like foods, a newsstand that actually sells newspapers, normally phone cards or phones and whatnot. Goya foods in abundance. There is also a long grill that makes aforementioned sandwiches, and there is nearly always a cat on the premises.
  - kasey_junk 9y ago
    I repeat, I don’t know that I’ve been in a town in the us over 100k people where you can’t find that. This year I’ve been in diners that match that description in New York, Vancouver, Chicago, St. Louis, Memphis & Atlanta. I think the biggest difference ive seen is whether their ‘greek’ menu is supplemented by Jewish/southern/polish/German food.
  - ryanx435 9y ago
    You just described Perkins, a diner chain in the upper Midwest. So basically New York diners are available in rural Iowa?
    - Moto7451 9y ago
      I think good diners are available wherever good food is. My experience is that you’re more hard pressed to find consistently good treatment of vegetables. CA, NY, and anywhere with a good port or agricultural industry is usually ok, but I’ve had some truly sad experiences. Think wilted salads with pancake syrup as the dressing (what... the...). As far as Diners go though, I’m yet to travel somewhere in the US that lacks a good one. 24 hour operating hours is a very LA/NY thing. I’m sure they’re in SF, Chicago, etc but I haven’t spent enough time in those locales to know. Otherwise I’ve had a lot of variable quality food from 24 hour truck stops. Maybe the best was a 24 hour sea food oriented spot in the middle of nowhere Indiana. The worst was the Fosters Freeze on the 10, smack dab in the middle of the LA to Phoenix stretch. Simply horrible.
    - jclem 9y ago
      Oof, it’s definitely not like Perkins at all. Perkins feels like a chain, and the food is far worse than most diners I’ve been a regular of over the years. Good diners have a gestalt that’s difficult to capture by just listing the characteristics of them. Diners are community hubs in a way that places like Perkins can’t typically become (though I won’t deny they have some regulars at least). Take one of my former locals, the somewhat famous Tom’s Restaurant in Prospect Heights, Brooklyn. Google Image Search it and tell me if it feels like a Perkins. There’s a ton of history there that you can only feel when you’re in the diner. When Dr. MLK, Jr. was assassinated, there was unrest in the neighborhood. Tom’s had no security gate, and neighbors (of all races according to reports [and the owner at the time]) locked arms and formed a human chain around the restaurant to protect it from damage. See also this obit of Gus Vlahavas[1], the former owner of Tom’s, who was a face I saw almost every Saturday morning in my early twenties when I lived in the neighborhood. So anyway, that’s my diner spiel. Tom’s is a pretty famous diner with a lot of history, but there are countless others like it in NYC. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/nyregion/gus-vlahavas-owner-of-toms-restaurant-in-brooklyn-dies-at-76.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/14/nyregion/gus-vlahavas-own...
- moosebear 9y ago
  I think some people are answering the question, “What are NYC diners _like_?” And it’s confusing to non-New Yorkers because those things do occur everywhere: One can find matzo ball soup and rubbery burgers and formica counters in plenty of major cities. The second question people could answer is, “_Why_ are there ‘NYC diners’?” The answer to _this_ question is the real reason why people are so fond of diners and claim they’re unique to NYC. NYC-style diners thrive in the unique-to-NYC combo of... - true 24-hour foot traffic from the city’s “never sleeps” thing, cars being impractical, and its massive 24-hour (lol, mostly) metro system - an economy that supports individual-owned quirky businesses (for now!) with decades of history - people having to leave their tiny apartments in order not to go mad, so you find more people from all backgrounds using the same few public spaces to relax, and more of these random communities of “regulars” built around nothing other than a shared space - you can be almost whatever you want here and no one will stop you, so we accumulate more glorious eccentrics than elsewhere, and our diners fill up with legendary, cherished characters - you’re often anonymous and lonely here so some people get into the habit of quick intimacy with strangers As the article mentioned, diners are dying out a little in Manhattan. This because it’s getting harder to run a small business here (taxes/expenses/rent), and people might just stay home and watch Netflix to relax rather than go out, among other reasons... But diner fanatics are usually just NYC lovers. I can’t imagine who would love diners but hate the city.

currymj 9y ago

i think a factor is that a lot of New York small businesses, food trucks, etc. buy from the same local suppliers, and because New York is such a big market, it's actually viable for them to only serve one city. The most visible example of this is the blue coffee cups. i'd bet those sausages come from a particular supplier somewhere on Long Island and get sold to many diners in NYC, and that's why they are so distinctive. this is definitely true of the rolls used for the classic sausage-egg-and-cheese-on-a-roll. like, yes, I can buy a breakfast sandwich anywhere in the US, but it will be noticeably different from the New York version, and the New York version will be pretty consistent across many independent bodegas because the ingredients are the same.

jpindar 9y ago
You can probably buy a breakfast sandwich anywhere. But unfortunately, you can't buy a buttered roll in New England.
- currymj 9y ago
  it’s absolutely true, but this kind of statement is why people get so enraged at New Yorkers talking about local food. without context it sounds like you are saying putting butter on a roll is a New York innovation.