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Bulgaria played a vital role in introducing yogurt to the West

146 points by ohjeez 9y ago

darkhorn 9y ago
I thought that yogurt is widely used in all formal Ottoman lands. And it is called yoğurt because milk becomes sticky (yoğun), thus yoğurt in Turkish.
- bllguo 9y ago
  weird to say "formal Ottoman lands", the Ottomans were only a thing starting in the 1300s. But technically correct, as some cursory searches suggest that the consensus on yogurt's origins is 5000-6000 BC, around Central Asia/Mesopotamia
- blacksmith_tb 9y ago
  It's interesting that the first recorded uses in English (according to the OED) mention it as a Turkish foodstuff: "1625 S. Purchas Pilgrimes II. ix. xv. §9. 1601 Neither doe they [sc. the Turks] eate much Milke, except it bee made sower, which they call Yoghurd." (See also[1]) I suppose it's possible that Bulgaria got yogurt during Ottoman rule in the 14th century, and that the research in the early part of the 20th just happened to be there. But it seems more likely to me that any group that kept animals for milk would have fermented the milk to make it last longer, and that knowledge would have traveled all over Eurasia. 1: https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/the-etymology-of-the-word-yogurt https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/...
  - wavefunction 9y ago
    There may have been no real disambiguation by the original author from "Turks" as an epithet for Ottoman citizens and specifically ethnic Turks as well.
- coldtea 9y ago
  >I thought that yogurt is widely used in all formal Ottoman lands Indeed it was used in all formal Byzantine empire -- later "Ottoman". But it was known far beyond that: "The cuisine of ancient Greece included a dairy product known as oxygala (οξύγαλα) which is believed to have been a form of yogurt" (Wikipedia), and even further to pre-history (5000 BC)
  - darkhorn 9y ago
    "believed"?. Yoğurt is a different bacteria. There are many bacterias similar to yoğurt. One such bacteria is kefir from Caucasus Mountains. Yoğurt is from around Central Asia. If yoğurt was oxygala Greeks would continue to call it oxygala.
    - nopakos 9y ago
      In Crete there is a dairy product called Xygalo (Ξύγαλο), basically the same word. But I think it look more like cream cheese than yogurt.
    - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
      > If yoğurt was oxygala Greeks would continue to call it oxygala. Modern Greek has seen a great deal of lexical replacement. It uses new words for things like "bread" and "water" that are different from what were used in the Classical era, even though bread and water have never changed. There are even cases where Ottoman vocabulary has replaced native Greek words. It is not inconceivable that the word for oxygala changed but the dairy product didn’t.
    - coldtea 9y ago
      >"believed"?. Yoğurt is a different bacteria. Citation needed. >If yoğurt was oxygala Greeks would continue to call it oxygala. That's not how language always works. Greeks have adopted foreign works for things they themselves had in the past (with their own words), and also use ancient Greek words for things that were imported much more recently. Even something as basic as water has changed name from ancient Greek times. Words have complex itineraries and adoption cases. Sometimes a newer foreign word is adopted because that's when a product gained more popularity (and the older one has been forgotten), or merely because it's thought as "more modern" to refer to it by that name. There are is even "reborrowing", when an ancient words is re-imported, centuries or millennia later, after it has been adopted and slightly altered abroad.
- interdrift 9y ago
  They had little to no influence on yoghurt tho :P
- jdtang13 9y ago
  It seems pretty strange to give credit to the modern state that is now called "Bulgaria". Yogurt is also an important aspect of Indian cuisine, and it seems much more likely that Bulgarian and Indian yogurt share a common ancestor rather than the Bulgarians being first.
  - stevenwoo 9y ago
    The article notes that yogurt has some requirements on temperature and that it probably arose every place humans harvested dairy and had the requisite ambient temperature to accidentally discover it but a Bulgarian was the first the uncover the bacteria responsible - the predominance of dairy currently is a result of industrial scale production and not a reflection of the bespoke whatever dairy was available yogurt that originated in Bulgaria.
    - ivankolev 9y ago
      The bacteria, it is called lactobacillus bulgaricus.
ashwinaj 9y ago
Whoever you (they?) are I hope you RIP. Yogurt is my life saver....
- GW150914 9y ago
  It’s so awesome. Want a savory snack? Yogurt. Dessert? Yogurt. Marinade for meat? Yogurt! Liven up a dip or spread? Yogurt. Make white chocolate pretzels better? Yogurt of course. Problems with your tummmy? Yogurt. Want a mouse to have bigger clackers and glossier fur? Not sure why you’re into that, but you guessed it right, it’s yogurt! https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/real-males-eat-yogurt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/real-males-eat-yo...
- deyan 9y ago
  Hopefully I am not misunderstanding your comment, but for the record: Bulgaria is a small country in Eastern Europe with a population of about 7M and bordering Romania, Greece, Turkey, Serbia, Macedonia, and the Black Sea. Formed around 681. Lots of expansion, contraction, being enslaved, etc. including 500 years under Ottoman Empire rule. These days the poorest and most unhappy member of the EU according to research - but a member nonetheless! Lots of immigrants including in the Bay Area and especially Chicago. Couple of fun facts: When the USSR was still a thing, Bulgaria was making personal computers, basically cloning Apple and IBM architectures. Source: Bulgarian who moved to the Bay Area ~10 years ago.
  - interdrift 9y ago
    time to go back my friend, Dido it's time to disrupt EE :)
    - deyan 9y ago
      Oh, I am back all the time :)
  - ashwinaj 9y ago
    Well, I meant the person or persons who discovered yogurt, may they rest in peace. My comment in no way was denigrating Bulgaria...come one, you guys gave us yogurt and Hristo Stoichkov ;)
greydius 9y ago
Where would we be without those ancient humans that decided to drink the juice of rotten fruits or eat chunky spoiled milk?
- yani 9y ago
  Lets not forget ice cream - snow mixed with wine
- mixmastamyk 9y ago
  Hunger will do that.
- tejon 9y ago
  Onions! Hey, this thing will make your eyes water at 10 paces. Let's eat it. Headcanon: the discovery that they are edible was the accidental result of a failed suicide attempt.
zwieback 9y ago
Thanks, Bulgaria!
- pgtan 9y ago
  If you are in Germany (guessing by the nickname), there is very good and inexpensive yoghurt based on live Lact. Bulg. I buy about 10 tubs every week. It's not that sour like in Bulgaria, but very tasty anyway. http://www.hansano.de/unsere-produkte/produkt/joghurt/bulgaria-joghurt/ http://www.hansano.de/unsere-produkte/produkt/joghurt/bulgar...
  - zwieback 9y ago
    Thanks for the tip. Although I grew up in Germany I've been living in the US for many years. When I first moved here in the 90s there wasn't much selection but since then yoghurt has become a massive food trend. We have everything from mass-produced to artisan specialty products. My fave is Fage greek right now, some of the smaller brands have real issues with quality control.
    - pgtan 9y ago
      I don't know how it is in the US, but in Germany very few labels on the tub declare if there are any live cultures in the yogurt, and no one with the amount of that bacteria (like in BG). So one needs to develop a special taste to find out, if the yogurt was made thick by the work of bacteria or just by adding milk powder, gelatin etc.
      - zwieback 9y ago
        Labeling laws are pretty strict here so you know if thickeners are used but most brands also print "live cultures" on the cup.
      - wirrbel 9y ago
        gelatin may not be added to plain yoghurt in Germany iirc. It may be a declared ingredient of fruit-yoghurt mixtures though.
lowry 9y ago
I brew kefir for well over 10 years. Healthier than yougurt.
- yani 9y ago
  Any evidence to support this?
  - blacksmith_tb 9y ago
    There is evidence to support kefir's benefits[1], but that doesn't prove it's healthier than yogurt. The primary difference between the two by my standards is that kefir cultures are both bacteria and yeasts, and yogurt cultures are typically only bacteria. There are certainly some yeasts that have been shown to be good for the digestive tract[2], but there are certainly others that are not[3]. 1: https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/health-benefits-kefir https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/health-benefits-kefi... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidiasis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidiasis
techer 9y ago
Lactobacillus bulgaris factor
twic 9y ago
> or even Icelandic yoghurt That remark will date. I don't think Iceland is famous for yoghourt, but it's somewhat trendy in the UK at the moment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyr I had some of the Arla kind, fat-free and with a layer of apple compote. It was sort of halfway between quark and yoghourt. It wasn't terribly pleasant - it has that grim chalkiness that fat-free Greek yoghourt has, only more solid. I can't see it becoming a permanent fixture in the dairy section.
- lg 9y ago
  I'm a huge fan of siggi's plain whole-milk skyr. creamier than similar greek yogurts I've tried.
  - pgtan 9y ago
    "creamier" means almost always that this product has nothing to do with fermentation and work of microbial cultures, but was made thick by adding milk powder, gelatin and sugar substitutes. The opposite of healthy, not to mention the sh*ty taste.
    - lg 9y ago
      well none of those are on the ingredients list, idk what to tell you. i think the 4% milkfat has something to do with the creaminess.
    - bsilvereagle 9y ago
      Traditional skyr is made with rennet while plain yogurt is not. The rennet helps breakdown casein and form a thicker yogurt.
    - thebooktocome 9y ago
      Skyr is a cheese made with rennet in addition to yogurt cultures.
  - garyny 9y ago
    It's the whole milk that makes siggi's creamier. There is no rennet, and certainly no stabilizers, sugar substitutes etc.. just very good yogurt.
written 9y ago
Thank you Bulgaria. Hopefully the real thing without thickeners will always be available. A lot of crap is being sold as yogurt by the usual multinational culprits. I guess we can make it at home if need be.
akditer 9y ago
I thought it was invented in Mesopotamia around 5000 BC. But, there is always an alternate story invented by some idiot.
- vasko_velichkov 9y ago
  There are hundreds of strains of Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus bacteria, that are used to make "sour milk" (or yogurt). I don't really care who invented what and when, I just enjoy the great variety of natural products, and I really hate the surrogates produced by the big brands like Danone and Nestle. At the end of the day, it is a matter of taste, but as a Bulgarian I prefer natural Bulgarian "кисело мялко" that could be found only in selected shops or in small villages around the country, because it is more sour, naturally thick, with >5% natural fat. There are similar products all over the Balkans and also in Iran, but they have different taste and texture, I guess depending on the different strains used for the fermentation and many other factors. I've traveled to more than 50 countries on 4 continents in the last 30 years, and I could say one thing - just don't consume the "branded" surrogates, that pretend to be "something", if you haven't tasted the real thing :-) I guess the same is true for every food - just last week I've purchased like 5 different brands of Dijon mustard in Dubai...OMG, none of them was even remotely close to what a Dijon mustard is...
smarinov 9y ago
A piece of information which I missed in the article: ‘yoghurt’ was an almost completely unknown word in Bulgaria until as soon as 2-3 decades ago. We call the substance „кисело млѣко“ (kiselo mlěko)[1] which literally means ‘sour milk’. Nowadays there are some products that are commercially available and are denoted as ‘yoghurt’ (Bulg. „йогурт“), but the word still seems somewhat unnatural for most Bulgarians and may not be completely understood by some people (e.g. older, from the countryside, etc). I am not a specialist, but the products that we in English call ‘yoghurt’, ‘soured milk’, ‘buttermilk’, ‘kefir’ are somewhat related and as far as I can understand from my cursory research now, the former two fall under the formerly shown term in Bulgarian, while the latter two are often referred to as „мътен“ (măten), „мътеница“/„матеница“ (mătenitsa/matenitsa), „бутаница“ (butanitsa) and a few other regional names. Kefir is also often just called that way if it was imported, e.g. from Russia or somewhere in the Caucausus–as is usually done with other things (sometimes also with foreign-origin yoghurt). ‘strained yogurt’ is „цедено кисело мляко“ (lit. the same), and there are also other milk products some of which I am not entirely sure how to explain since I don't know how exactly they are made, e.g. „катък“ (katăk–something like a milk-based spread; essentially the same name as ‘qatiq’ in many Turkic-speaking regions, but AFAIK the same name can refer to relatively/quite different things from place to place), „таратор“ (‘tarator’–a cold soup, similar to ‘ayran’ with some specific added ingredients to it), „сух таратор“ (lit. ‘dry tarator’, similar to Gr. tzatziki and Tur. cacık) and a number of others which people who are better aware of the Bulgarian culinary traditions would've probably mentioned here. --- Following is my completely wild guess, but unfortunately I wasn't able to find reliable sources to either prove or disprove it, so take from it whatever you want. Will be glad if somebody could chip in with more knowledge. The Bulgarian term for yoghurt (as already said also not unknown in other South Slavic languages, but the single most–and virtually universally–used term in our language) seems closely related to the old Greek type of yoghurt «οξύγαλα», which literally means the same (‘sour milk’). It was not uncommon for Bulgarians to translate terms from Greek during Medieval times, but they just took the Turkish word for all new things that came during Ottoman times, with the most prominent examples that remain nowadays all being foods (e.g. various plants or cooked dishes). Romanian features similar ways to refer to yogurt (although ‘iaurt’ seems more common nowadays), but I don't know how many of them are just calques, regional variants, or what the origin of each is in particular. What is more, Albanian also has its own–although seemingly unrelated–words for yogurt, buttermilk and various other milk products. This leads me to think that ‘yoghurt’ was one of the things that was known on the Balkans long before the Ottoman conquest and the Slavic speakers back then knew it–or something essentially similar–quite well (in stark contrast to another beloved milk product made out of yogurt: „айран“, the name of which comes directly from the Turkish ‘ayran’). P.S. As of now the Wikipedia article on the bacteria mentioned in the article[2] says the following: “Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus can be found naturally in the gastrointestinal tract of mammals living in Bulgaria, but one specific strain, Lactobacillus bulgaricus GLB44, is extracted from the leaves of the Galanthus nivalis (snowdrop flower) in Bulgaria as well. The bacterium is also grown artificially in many other countries.” It is yet to be given a proper citation, but this is the anecdotal information I have heard on numerous occasions circulated in Bulgaria as the source for the naming as opposed to the country of origin of the person who discovered it. I don't know which version–if any–is correct, though. P.P.S. There are also other milk products in Bulgaria with traditional names: --- [1] Official writing nowadays is „кисело мляко“, but I have left the former spelling on purpose because this is etymologically more informative and makes a more visible connection to all Bulgarian dialects as well as to all modern South Slavic languages (also the ones from the western branch), where ‘kiselo mlijeko’ is also not unknown. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_delbrueckii_subsp._bulgaricus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_delbrueckii_subs...
mitko 9y ago
Bulgarian living in USA, here are my 2c - there is Bulgarian yogurt in USA - the one nearby store is the "White mountain" brand. It is a tad more sour than other yogurt but in unpleasant way at all, or maybe I'm biased to recognize it :). I'm ashamed we Bulgarians haven't done better marketing of it as it is really good and superior than Greek. Everyone knows about Greek yogurt but nobody knows about Bulgarian * . I love Greek yogurt too, but the reason it's so thick is that it is strained. Bulgarian yogurt derives its thickness and structure from the fermentation process, and good yogurt should not fall off if you turn the jar upside down. * - at least in USA, in east Asia (Japan, Thailand in my experience) the most popular brand of yogurt is named "Bulgaria" and is in every 7/11 or supermarket. EDIT: format of the asteriks
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
  Greek here. Greek yoghurt is not strained. The "Greek yoghurt" sold outside Greece, is. In Greece unstrained yoghurt from sheep or cow milk is sold in supermarkets (and everywhere else) alongside the strained cow milk yoghurt people outside Greece are familiar with and know as the only "Greek yoghurt". To Greeks, that "Greek yoghurt" is "bag yoghurt" (because it's strained inside a cheesecloth bag). Btw, that "Greek yoghurt" is, 90% of the time, Total by Fage (Total is the name of the product, Fage the brand), including the ones that come together with a pot of jam on the side, as immortalised by Silicon Valley's Erlich Bachman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_taax1TUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_taax1TUc Unless it's Greek style yoghurt which is invariably exactly as wrong as it sounds.
  - mitko 9y ago
    Very interesting, do you know where I can learn more truthful about the OG Greek yogurt. Does it have similar thick texture? I'm only finding vaguely trustworthy results and stories in google. These were interesting: http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2014/03/24/greek-yogurt-practically-unknown-in-greece.html http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2014/03/24/greek-yogurt-pr... - how the marketing of Greek yogurt started by Chobani, and legal battle with Fage https://www.olivetomato.com/will-the-real-greek-yogurt-please-stand-up/ https://www.olivetomato.com/will-the-real-greek-yogurt-pleas.... - about straining removing the whey from the milk
berg01 9y ago
Okay. Thanks, we love it. It was a fantastic invention! Now please bring the the thousands of bulgarian beggars distributed amongst almost all the Swedish grocery stores back home. Please.
- dang 9y ago
  Taking HN threads into nationalistic flamewars is a bannable offense here, so please don't do that. Instead, if you'd read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. That means avoiding flamebait and flamewars. Racial flamewars aren't ok either, including in dog-whistle format, which is how I read you at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16833066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16833066 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16834408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16834408.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
John_KZ 9y ago
The title is a bit misleading. It tells an interesting story about yogurt and Bulgaria, but yogurt has been around for literally thousands of years and it existed long before Bulgaria came to be even as a concept. Most of the things mentioned (like traditional clay pots and the fermentation processes) are fairly common across the Balkans. Bulgaria certainly have their own local and interesting flavors but they didn't bring yoghurt to the world.
- dang 9y ago
  Alright, we replaced the title above with a more narrowly scoped sentence from the article.
bllguo 9y ago
Personally I enjoy yogurt that is more drinkable. Anyone here try Beijing yogurt before? Wondering what kind of products are similar here in the US. I've seen some comparisons to kefir but I haven't yet gotten to try it.
- tpm 9y ago
  You can actually prepare soured milk yourself, from untreated fresh milk (or possibly even from pasteurised, but not from UHT or UV treated).
raspasov 9y ago
Bulgarian living in USA here. As other people have mentioned in the thread White Mountain yoghurt is the real deal (I have no connection to the company). Real Bulgarian yoghurt proudly made in Austin, Texas :) Joking aside, their yoghurt is superb. I don't recall yoghurt like theirs even in Bulgaria. Unfortunately you can't order directly from them but you can find if it's available in a store near you from their website http://www.whitemountainfoods.com http://www.whitemountainfoods.com
jk2323 9y ago
Should anyone be interested in making yogurt with Bulgarian cultures, they are available on ebay: US: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bulgarian-Starter-Kultur-fur-Traditionelen-Joghurt-naturliches-10-Kaps-20l/152096114152 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bulgarian-Starter-Kultur-fur-Tradit... EU: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Bulgarische-Joghurt-Starterkultur-naturliche-probiotische-30-Beutel-30L/202280610745 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Bulgarische-Joghurt-Starterkultur-na... I make Kefir myself with a culture that I once acquired on ebay. May try to make Bulgarian yogurt one day.
martythemaniak 9y ago
For Canadians, I've found that Pinehedge Farms (http://pinehedge.com/ http://pinehedge.com/) make the closest yogurt I've found to Bulgarian yogurt. It's pricy and hard to find, but its thick, tastes right and even has that fatty layer on top that's a mark of using non-homogenized milk. First timers might be put off by it, but think of it as free clotted cream or light butter and use it! Personally, I started making my own yogurt after getting an InstantPot and a packet of Bulgarian starter culture. It's very easy, tastes great and is cheaper than even the cheapest yogurt you can buy at the store. You can also control if it comes out fresh/sweet and the degree of sourness. Another thing I've experimented with is making yogurt cheese. Regular fermentation requires 6-8hrs at 40C (depending on how sour you want it), but I started fermenting for 60hrs. At that stage, it's so sour, it's not edible, but once it's strained most of the acidity is gone and you're left with incredibly thick, flavourful yogurt. I use it instead of sour cream, for tzatziki, with jam, etc.
- smnrchrds 9y ago
  Do you mind telling me which yogurt culture you use and where you got it from? Thanks.
nandreev 9y ago
How to get the attention of every Bulgarian in SV: The Thread

146 points by ohjeez 9y ago

I thought that yogurt is widely used in all formal Ottoman lands. And it is called yoğurt because milk becomes sticky (yoğun), thus yoğurt in Turkish.

bllguo 9y ago
weird to say "formal Ottoman lands", the Ottomans were only a thing starting in the 1300s. But technically correct, as some cursory searches suggest that the consensus on yogurt's origins is 5000-6000 BC, around Central Asia/Mesopotamia
blacksmith_tb 9y ago
It's interesting that the first recorded uses in English (according to the OED) mention it as a Turkish foodstuff: "1625 S. Purchas Pilgrimes II. ix. xv. §9. 1601 Neither doe they [sc. the Turks] eate much Milke, except it bee made sower, which they call Yoghurd." (See also[1]) I suppose it's possible that Bulgaria got yogurt during Ottoman rule in the 14th century, and that the research in the early part of the 20th just happened to be there. But it seems more likely to me that any group that kept animals for milk would have fermented the milk to make it last longer, and that knowledge would have traveled all over Eurasia. 1: https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/the-etymology-of-the-word-yogurt https://www.bonappetit.com/test-kitchen/ingredients/article/...
- wavefunction 9y ago
  There may have been no real disambiguation by the original author from "Turks" as an epithet for Ottoman citizens and specifically ethnic Turks as well.
coldtea 9y ago
>I thought that yogurt is widely used in all formal Ottoman lands Indeed it was used in all formal Byzantine empire -- later "Ottoman". But it was known far beyond that: "The cuisine of ancient Greece included a dairy product known as oxygala (οξύγαλα) which is believed to have been a form of yogurt" (Wikipedia), and even further to pre-history (5000 BC)
- darkhorn 9y ago
  "believed"?. Yoğurt is a different bacteria. There are many bacterias similar to yoğurt. One such bacteria is kefir from Caucasus Mountains. Yoğurt is from around Central Asia. If yoğurt was oxygala Greeks would continue to call it oxygala.
  - nopakos 9y ago
    In Crete there is a dairy product called Xygalo (Ξύγαλο), basically the same word. But I think it look more like cream cheese than yogurt.
  - Mediterraneo10 9y ago
    > If yoğurt was oxygala Greeks would continue to call it oxygala. Modern Greek has seen a great deal of lexical replacement. It uses new words for things like "bread" and "water" that are different from what were used in the Classical era, even though bread and water have never changed. There are even cases where Ottoman vocabulary has replaced native Greek words. It is not inconceivable that the word for oxygala changed but the dairy product didn’t.
  - coldtea 9y ago
    >"believed"?. Yoğurt is a different bacteria. Citation needed. >If yoğurt was oxygala Greeks would continue to call it oxygala. That's not how language always works. Greeks have adopted foreign works for things they themselves had in the past (with their own words), and also use ancient Greek words for things that were imported much more recently. Even something as basic as water has changed name from ancient Greek times. Words have complex itineraries and adoption cases. Sometimes a newer foreign word is adopted because that's when a product gained more popularity (and the older one has been forgotten), or merely because it's thought as "more modern" to refer to it by that name. There are is even "reborrowing", when an ancient words is re-imported, centuries or millennia later, after it has been adopted and slightly altered abroad.
interdrift 9y ago
They had little to no influence on yoghurt tho :P
jdtang13 9y ago
It seems pretty strange to give credit to the modern state that is now called "Bulgaria". Yogurt is also an important aspect of Indian cuisine, and it seems much more likely that Bulgarian and Indian yogurt share a common ancestor rather than the Bulgarians being first.
- stevenwoo 9y ago
  The article notes that yogurt has some requirements on temperature and that it probably arose every place humans harvested dairy and had the requisite ambient temperature to accidentally discover it but a Bulgarian was the first the uncover the bacteria responsible - the predominance of dairy currently is a result of industrial scale production and not a reflection of the bespoke whatever dairy was available yogurt that originated in Bulgaria.
  - ivankolev 9y ago
    The bacteria, it is called lactobacillus bulgaricus.

ashwinaj 9y ago

Whoever you (they?) are I hope you RIP. Yogurt is my life saver....

GW150914 9y ago
It’s so awesome. Want a savory snack? Yogurt. Dessert? Yogurt. Marinade for meat? Yogurt! Liven up a dip or spread? Yogurt. Make white chocolate pretzels better? Yogurt of course. Problems with your tummmy? Yogurt. Want a mouse to have bigger clackers and glossier fur? Not sure why you’re into that, but you guessed it right, it’s yogurt! https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/real-males-eat-yogurt/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/real-males-eat-yo...
deyan 9y ago
Hopefully I am not misunderstanding your comment, but for the record: Bulgaria is a small country in Eastern Europe with a population of about 7M and bordering Romania, Greece, Turkey, Serbia, Macedonia, and the Black Sea. Formed around 681. Lots of expansion, contraction, being enslaved, etc. including 500 years under Ottoman Empire rule. These days the poorest and most unhappy member of the EU according to research - but a member nonetheless! Lots of immigrants including in the Bay Area and especially Chicago. Couple of fun facts: When the USSR was still a thing, Bulgaria was making personal computers, basically cloning Apple and IBM architectures. Source: Bulgarian who moved to the Bay Area ~10 years ago.
- interdrift 9y ago
  time to go back my friend, Dido it's time to disrupt EE :)
  - deyan 9y ago
    Oh, I am back all the time :)
- ashwinaj 9y ago
  Well, I meant the person or persons who discovered yogurt, may they rest in peace. My comment in no way was denigrating Bulgaria...come one, you guys gave us yogurt and Hristo Stoichkov ;)

greydius 9y ago

Where would we be without those ancient humans that decided to drink the juice of rotten fruits or eat chunky spoiled milk?

yani 9y ago
Lets not forget ice cream - snow mixed with wine
mixmastamyk 9y ago
Hunger will do that.
tejon 9y ago
Onions! Hey, this thing will make your eyes water at 10 paces. Let's eat it. Headcanon: the discovery that they are edible was the accidental result of a failed suicide attempt.

zwieback 9y ago

Thanks, Bulgaria!

pgtan 9y ago
If you are in Germany (guessing by the nickname), there is very good and inexpensive yoghurt based on live Lact. Bulg. I buy about 10 tubs every week. It's not that sour like in Bulgaria, but very tasty anyway. http://www.hansano.de/unsere-produkte/produkt/joghurt/bulgaria-joghurt/ http://www.hansano.de/unsere-produkte/produkt/joghurt/bulgar...
- zwieback 9y ago
  Thanks for the tip. Although I grew up in Germany I've been living in the US for many years. When I first moved here in the 90s there wasn't much selection but since then yoghurt has become a massive food trend. We have everything from mass-produced to artisan specialty products. My fave is Fage greek right now, some of the smaller brands have real issues with quality control.
  - pgtan 9y ago
    I don't know how it is in the US, but in Germany very few labels on the tub declare if there are any live cultures in the yogurt, and no one with the amount of that bacteria (like in BG). So one needs to develop a special taste to find out, if the yogurt was made thick by the work of bacteria or just by adding milk powder, gelatin etc.
    - zwieback 9y ago
      Labeling laws are pretty strict here so you know if thickeners are used but most brands also print "live cultures" on the cup.
    - wirrbel 9y ago
      gelatin may not be added to plain yoghurt in Germany iirc. It may be a declared ingredient of fruit-yoghurt mixtures though.

lowry 9y ago

I brew kefir for well over 10 years. Healthier than yougurt.

yani 9y ago
Any evidence to support this?
- blacksmith_tb 9y ago
  There is evidence to support kefir's benefits[1], but that doesn't prove it's healthier than yogurt. The primary difference between the two by my standards is that kefir cultures are both bacteria and yeasts, and yogurt cultures are typically only bacteria. There are certainly some yeasts that have been shown to be good for the digestive tract[2], but there are certainly others that are not[3]. 1: https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/health-benefits-kefir https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/howto/guide/health-benefits-kefi... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saccharomyces_boulardii 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidiasis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candidiasis

techer 9y ago

Lactobacillus bulgaris factor

twic 9y ago

> or even Icelandic yoghurt That remark will date. I don't think Iceland is famous for yoghourt, but it's somewhat trendy in the UK at the moment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skyr I had some of the Arla kind, fat-free and with a layer of apple compote. It was sort of halfway between quark and yoghourt. It wasn't terribly pleasant - it has that grim chalkiness that fat-free Greek yoghourt has, only more solid. I can't see it becoming a permanent fixture in the dairy section.

lg 9y ago
I'm a huge fan of siggi's plain whole-milk skyr. creamier than similar greek yogurts I've tried.
- pgtan 9y ago
  "creamier" means almost always that this product has nothing to do with fermentation and work of microbial cultures, but was made thick by adding milk powder, gelatin and sugar substitutes. The opposite of healthy, not to mention the sh*ty taste.
  - lg 9y ago
    well none of those are on the ingredients list, idk what to tell you. i think the 4% milkfat has something to do with the creaminess.
  - bsilvereagle 9y ago
    Traditional skyr is made with rennet while plain yogurt is not. The rennet helps breakdown casein and form a thicker yogurt.
  - thebooktocome 9y ago
    Skyr is a cheese made with rennet in addition to yogurt cultures.
- garyny 9y ago
  It's the whole milk that makes siggi's creamier. There is no rennet, and certainly no stabilizers, sugar substitutes etc.. just very good yogurt.

written 9y ago

Thank you Bulgaria. Hopefully the real thing without thickeners will always be available. A lot of crap is being sold as yogurt by the usual multinational culprits. I guess we can make it at home if need be.

akditer 9y ago

I thought it was invented in Mesopotamia around 5000 BC. But, there is always an alternate story invented by some idiot.

vasko_velichkov 9y ago
There are hundreds of strains of Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus bacteria, that are used to make "sour milk" (or yogurt). I don't really care who invented what and when, I just enjoy the great variety of natural products, and I really hate the surrogates produced by the big brands like Danone and Nestle. At the end of the day, it is a matter of taste, but as a Bulgarian I prefer natural Bulgarian "кисело мялко" that could be found only in selected shops or in small villages around the country, because it is more sour, naturally thick, with >5% natural fat. There are similar products all over the Balkans and also in Iran, but they have different taste and texture, I guess depending on the different strains used for the fermentation and many other factors. I've traveled to more than 50 countries on 4 continents in the last 30 years, and I could say one thing - just don't consume the "branded" surrogates, that pretend to be "something", if you haven't tasted the real thing :-) I guess the same is true for every food - just last week I've purchased like 5 different brands of Dijon mustard in Dubai...OMG, none of them was even remotely close to what a Dijon mustard is...

smarinov 9y ago

A piece of information which I missed in the article: ‘yoghurt’ was an almost completely unknown word in Bulgaria until as soon as 2-3 decades ago. We call the substance „кисело млѣко“ (kiselo mlěko)[1] which literally means ‘sour milk’. Nowadays there are some products that are commercially available and are denoted as ‘yoghurt’ (Bulg. „йогурт“), but the word still seems somewhat unnatural for most Bulgarians and may not be completely understood by some people (e.g. older, from the countryside, etc). I am not a specialist, but the products that we in English call ‘yoghurt’, ‘soured milk’, ‘buttermilk’, ‘kefir’ are somewhat related and as far as I can understand from my cursory research now, the former two fall under the formerly shown term in Bulgarian, while the latter two are often referred to as „мътен“ (măten), „мътеница“/„матеница“ (mătenitsa/matenitsa), „бутаница“ (butanitsa) and a few other regional names. Kefir is also often just called that way if it was imported, e.g. from Russia or somewhere in the Caucausus–as is usually done with other things (sometimes also with foreign-origin yoghurt). ‘strained yogurt’ is „цедено кисело мляко“ (lit. the same), and there are also other milk products some of which I am not entirely sure how to explain since I don't know how exactly they are made, e.g. „катък“ (katăk–something like a milk-based spread; essentially the same name as ‘qatiq’ in many Turkic-speaking regions, but AFAIK the same name can refer to relatively/quite different things from place to place), „таратор“ (‘tarator’–a cold soup, similar to ‘ayran’ with some specific added ingredients to it), „сух таратор“ (lit. ‘dry tarator’, similar to Gr. tzatziki and Tur. cacık) and a number of others which people who are better aware of the Bulgarian culinary traditions would've probably mentioned here. --- Following is my completely wild guess, but unfortunately I wasn't able to find reliable sources to either prove or disprove it, so take from it whatever you want. Will be glad if somebody could chip in with more knowledge. The Bulgarian term for yoghurt (as already said also not unknown in other South Slavic languages, but the single most–and virtually universally–used term in our language) seems closely related to the old Greek type of yoghurt «οξύγαλα», which literally means the same (‘sour milk’). It was not uncommon for Bulgarians to translate terms from Greek during Medieval times, but they just took the Turkish word for all new things that came during Ottoman times, with the most prominent examples that remain nowadays all being foods (e.g. various plants or cooked dishes). Romanian features similar ways to refer to yogurt (although ‘iaurt’ seems more common nowadays), but I don't know how many of them are just calques, regional variants, or what the origin of each is in particular. What is more, Albanian also has its own–although seemingly unrelated–words for yogurt, buttermilk and various other milk products. This leads me to think that ‘yoghurt’ was one of the things that was known on the Balkans long before the Ottoman conquest and the Slavic speakers back then knew it–or something essentially similar–quite well (in stark contrast to another beloved milk product made out of yogurt: „айран“, the name of which comes directly from the Turkish ‘ayran’). P.S. As of now the Wikipedia article on the bacteria mentioned in the article[2] says the following: “Lactobacillus delbrueckii subsp. bulgaricus can be found naturally in the gastrointestinal tract of mammals living in Bulgaria, but one specific strain, Lactobacillus bulgaricus GLB44, is extracted from the leaves of the Galanthus nivalis (snowdrop flower) in Bulgaria as well. The bacterium is also grown artificially in many other countries.” It is yet to be given a proper citation, but this is the anecdotal information I have heard on numerous occasions circulated in Bulgaria as the source for the naming as opposed to the country of origin of the person who discovered it. I don't know which version–if any–is correct, though. P.P.S. There are also other milk products in Bulgaria with traditional names: --- [1] Official writing nowadays is „кисело мляко“, but I have left the former spelling on purpose because this is etymologically more informative and makes a more visible connection to all Bulgarian dialects as well as to all modern South Slavic languages (also the ones from the western branch), where ‘kiselo mlijeko’ is also not unknown. [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_delbrueckii_subsp._bulgaricus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactobacillus_delbrueckii_subs...

mitko 9y ago

Bulgarian living in USA, here are my 2c - there is Bulgarian yogurt in USA - the one nearby store is the "White mountain" brand. It is a tad more sour than other yogurt but in unpleasant way at all, or maybe I'm biased to recognize it :). I'm ashamed we Bulgarians haven't done better marketing of it as it is really good and superior than Greek. Everyone knows about Greek yogurt but nobody knows about Bulgarian * . I love Greek yogurt too, but the reason it's so thick is that it is strained. Bulgarian yogurt derives its thickness and structure from the fermentation process, and good yogurt should not fall off if you turn the jar upside down. * - at least in USA, in east Asia (Japan, Thailand in my experience) the most popular brand of yogurt is named "Bulgaria" and is in every 7/11 or supermarket. EDIT: format of the asteriks

YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago
Greek here. Greek yoghurt is not strained. The "Greek yoghurt" sold outside Greece, is. In Greece unstrained yoghurt from sheep or cow milk is sold in supermarkets (and everywhere else) alongside the strained cow milk yoghurt people outside Greece are familiar with and know as the only "Greek yoghurt". To Greeks, that "Greek yoghurt" is "bag yoghurt" (because it's strained inside a cheesecloth bag). Btw, that "Greek yoghurt" is, 90% of the time, Total by Fage (Total is the name of the product, Fage the brand), including the ones that come together with a pot of jam on the side, as immortalised by Silicon Valley's Erlich Bachman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_taax1TUc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR_taax1TUc Unless it's Greek style yoghurt which is invariably exactly as wrong as it sounds.
- mitko 9y ago
  Very interesting, do you know where I can learn more truthful about the OG Greek yogurt. Does it have similar thick texture? I'm only finding vaguely trustworthy results and stories in google. These were interesting: http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2014/03/24/greek-yogurt-practically-unknown-in-greece.html http://www.foxnews.com/food-drink/2014/03/24/greek-yogurt-pr... - how the marketing of Greek yogurt started by Chobani, and legal battle with Fage https://www.olivetomato.com/will-the-real-greek-yogurt-please-stand-up/ https://www.olivetomato.com/will-the-real-greek-yogurt-pleas.... - about straining removing the whey from the milk

berg01 9y ago

Okay. Thanks, we love it. It was a fantastic invention! Now please bring the the thousands of bulgarian beggars distributed amongst almost all the Swedish grocery stores back home. Please.

dang 9y ago
Taking HN threads into nationalistic flamewars is a bannable offense here, so please don't do that. Instead, if you'd read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. That means avoiding flamebait and flamewars. Racial flamewars aren't ok either, including in dog-whistle format, which is how I read you at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16833066 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16833066 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16834408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16834408.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

John_KZ 9y ago

The title is a bit misleading. It tells an interesting story about yogurt and Bulgaria, but yogurt has been around for literally thousands of years and it existed long before Bulgaria came to be even as a concept. Most of the things mentioned (like traditional clay pots and the fermentation processes) are fairly common across the Balkans. Bulgaria certainly have their own local and interesting flavors but they didn't bring yoghurt to the world.

dang 9y ago
Alright, we replaced the title above with a more narrowly scoped sentence from the article.

bllguo 9y ago

Personally I enjoy yogurt that is more drinkable. Anyone here try Beijing yogurt before? Wondering what kind of products are similar here in the US. I've seen some comparisons to kefir but I haven't yet gotten to try it.

tpm 9y ago
You can actually prepare soured milk yourself, from untreated fresh milk (or possibly even from pasteurised, but not from UHT or UV treated).

raspasov 9y ago

Bulgarian living in USA here. As other people have mentioned in the thread White Mountain yoghurt is the real deal (I have no connection to the company). Real Bulgarian yoghurt proudly made in Austin, Texas :) Joking aside, their yoghurt is superb. I don't recall yoghurt like theirs even in Bulgaria. Unfortunately you can't order directly from them but you can find if it's available in a store near you from their website http://www.whitemountainfoods.com http://www.whitemountainfoods.com

jk2323 9y ago

Should anyone be interested in making yogurt with Bulgarian cultures, they are available on ebay: US: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bulgarian-Starter-Kultur-fur-Traditionelen-Joghurt-naturliches-10-Kaps-20l/152096114152 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Bulgarian-Starter-Kultur-fur-Tradit... EU: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Bulgarische-Joghurt-Starterkultur-naturliche-probiotische-30-Beutel-30L/202280610745 https://www.ebay.de/itm/Bulgarische-Joghurt-Starterkultur-na... I make Kefir myself with a culture that I once acquired on ebay. May try to make Bulgarian yogurt one day.

martythemaniak 9y ago

For Canadians, I've found that Pinehedge Farms (http://pinehedge.com/ http://pinehedge.com/) make the closest yogurt I've found to Bulgarian yogurt. It's pricy and hard to find, but its thick, tastes right and even has that fatty layer on top that's a mark of using non-homogenized milk. First timers might be put off by it, but think of it as free clotted cream or light butter and use it! Personally, I started making my own yogurt after getting an InstantPot and a packet of Bulgarian starter culture. It's very easy, tastes great and is cheaper than even the cheapest yogurt you can buy at the store. You can also control if it comes out fresh/sweet and the degree of sourness. Another thing I've experimented with is making yogurt cheese. Regular fermentation requires 6-8hrs at 40C (depending on how sour you want it), but I started fermenting for 60hrs. At that stage, it's so sour, it's not edible, but once it's strained most of the acidity is gone and you're left with incredibly thick, flavourful yogurt. I use it instead of sour cream, for tzatziki, with jam, etc.

smnrchrds 9y ago
Do you mind telling me which yogurt culture you use and where you got it from? Thanks.

nandreev 9y ago

How to get the attention of every Bulgarian in SV: The Thread