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Reason to start working on the system as per the article : "It is a culmination of 17 years of rigorous work by Indian space scientists. India took a firm deci

Reason to start working on the system as per the article : "It is a culmination of 17 years of rigorous work by Indian space scientists. India took a firm decision on IRNSS in 1999 after the US government refused to share GPS data that would provide vital information on Pakistani troops position during Kargil war. As in the previous launches of the IRNSS satellites, PSLV-C41 has also used ‘XL’ version of PSLV equipped with six strap-ons, each carrying 12 tonnes of propellant."

andyjohnson0 8y ago
I didn't understand this. How would the GPS system allow the US to know the location of Pakistani soldiers? GPS satellites only transmit and GPS receivers only receive - there is no return path that would disclose the location. What am I missing?
- nacnud 8y ago
  Only a guess, but at that time wasn't the GPS signal intentionally degraded for non-US-military use, with reduced accuracy? Perhaps they're talking about the more precise signal, which the US didn't let them use.
  - andyjohnson0 8y ago
    Yes, "selective availability" was still in use then - but I can't see how its use or not would disclose a GPS user's position.
    - Arnt 8y ago
      "I need a missile strike. My position according to GPS is x and the Pakistani you should hit are 920m straight north of me according to my rangefinder."
- rajeshpant 8y ago
  Its not about location of foot soldiers. Although the article highlights about GPS, it is mapping in general. India wanted terrain and altitude data for making strategy.
- hshehehjdjdjd 8y ago
  https://m.timesofindia.com/home/science/How-Kargil-spurred-India-to-design-own-GPS/articleshow/33254691.cms https://m.timesofindia.com/home/science/How-Kargil-spurred-I... This seems to have moderately more information. It seems like maybe they wanted to use GPS capabilities in their guided weapons systems, and the US would not permit it or perhaps threatened to disable the system in that theater? It’s a bit confusing and fuzzy.
- stedaniels 8y ago
  There are many scenarios, but here's a simple one. Boots on the ground. You have men on the ground who can see the enemy position, they need to know exactly where they are to be able to know exactly where the enemy is. Without GPS you are relying on visual points of reference against maps of shaky providence.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    Boots on the ground don't need to be accurate to within 1cm. If a normal human is within 10 meters they can nearly always figure things out. In fact if humans are that close it is because you don't actually know where the enemy is and you need the humans to find them - otherwise you would have a plane drop a bomb on them. Where you need more accuracy is when you want something at a long distance to do something - drop a bomb or something.
- michaelt 8y ago
  As far as I can tell, all the online reports have been written 15+ years after the fact, and they all just quote one another; I suspect the journalists may be mistaken. It's worth bearing in mind the Kargil War took place in 1999, and GPS Selective Availability wasn't turned off until May 2000. It might be that India asked for the SA seed key so their own forces/missiles could navigate more accurately, but were denied?
  - chiph 8y ago
    IIRC, with SA on, accuracy was to within 100 meters. And that's enough for troop movements but not accurate enough for missiles and artillery. So using it for land navigation would have been fine. It's sounding like it was a case of "We want it because we want it"
    - rdsubhas 8y ago
      Kargil is one of the highest battlefields on Earth. I don't think I'd compare Himalayan warfare to "land navigation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_warfare#Kashmir_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_warfare#Kashmir_confl... > The most dangerous and volatile of all mountain conflicts involves the ongoing one between India and Pakistan over the Kashmir region.
      - chiph 8y ago
        It's a generic term meaning "How do I get my troops from here to there" either by vehicle or marching, such that they don't get lost and arrive when needed. This is the classic way with map + compass. GPS just makes it easier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNohNPqWlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNohNPqWlU
- SoulMan 8y ago
  Also because swearing-in ceremony of Barack Obama as US President in January 2009 had a disastrous impact on the test-firing of the BrahMos supersonic missile https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/national/how-obama-swearing-in-scuttled-brahmos-missiles-test-flight/article23103459.ece https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/national/how-obama...
  - sdhgaiojfsa 8y ago
    > But an apprehensive US official turned down the request and told Kalam: “Sorry Dr Kalam, we will give you good lunch and dinner, but no Craig computer.” > Kalam came back empty-handed, but went on to develop the Pace Plus computer with help from the Indian Institute of Science and others in two years. And, Pace Plus proved to be 20 times faster than Craig! This type of thing sounds incredibly childish and jingoistic to my American ears. Does it read better to folks who learned to speak English in India, or is it just really awful writing? Also, as best I can tell, there is no "Craig" super computer. Does the author mean Cray? And if so, why was the scientist asking the USG? You would normally want to get such computers from the manufacturer, not a foreign government, however friendly.
    - dilawar 8y ago
      That's the usual state of news reporting. People just love discourse of conspiracy over here.
      - shripadk 8y ago
        It's not a conspiracy. The sale of Cray supercomputers was indeed blocked by the US Government. Just because the article is badly written doesn't negate the facts on the ground.
    - shripadk 8y ago
      http://www.rediff.com/computer/dec/18super.htm http://www.rediff.com/computer/dec/18super.htm I agree that it is awful writing. I hope the article above is written better. > Does the author mean Cray? And if so, why was the scientist asking the USG? You would normally want to get such computers from the manufacturer, not a foreign government, however friendly. It's not possible to directly purchase from manufacturers if the US Government is going to block the purchase on various grounds. Don't forget that there was a period where sanctions and arms embargo was also imposed on India. It's a different thing that today the US considers India a "strategic partner" but it wasn't always the case. As far as Cray goes, they even setup an award in the name of the scientist mentioned in the article (who also served as the President of India from 2002 to 2007 [1]): https://www.cray.com/blog/cray-hpc-awards-honor-achievements-india/ https://www.cray.com/blog/cray-hpc-awards-honor-achievements... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam
- inglor 8y ago
  GPS broadcasts several signals, the higher precision ones are encrypted - until 1999 GPS was encrypted at much lower resolution but the army and armies it shares its tech with still operate at a higher resolution. The US can lock countries out of higher resolution GPS at will - this (and GLONASS) make sense because of it.
- jhayward 8y ago
  I would speculate that India wanted access to the encrypted military GPS signal, which would have given them 10-1000 times more accurate guidance for precision weapons.
rrrazdan 8y ago
Case of typical uninformed journalism. The basic use would be independent and reliable GPS guided munition.
- igravious 8y ago
  GPS is the US system. GNSS is the generic term. The basic use is navigation (the N is GNSS). That capability can be used for both civilian and military purposes. Chances are that even though it will be used by the Indian military it will be used far more often for civilian purposes.
  - rrrazdan 8y ago
    Yes, my bad on the GPS/GNSS. Yet on the use cases for this, I don't think India would have ponied up the money for this if it wasn't for the military use. With GPS, Galileo, Beidou and Glonass, the civilian navigation problem is pretty much solved. Are you aware of a use case it is solving that the others aren't?
adventured 8y ago
> India took a firm decision on IRNSS in 1999 after the US government refused to share GPS data Given India's rising position in the world economically (they'll have the fifth largest economy in two years or so) and militarily, they'd have been crazy to not go forward with their own system regardless. That's particularly the case given India has a very complex position among all the powers, from the US to the EU to Russia to China. They're far less blatantly aligned one direction or another than the rest. Their general geo-political neighborhood presents wild security considerations. To be a fully independent power in the coming decades, they'll want to gradually acquire their own capabilities at most things.
buildfailure 8y ago
Where exactly does it say this the reason to start working on the "system" ? Also what do you mean by "work on the system" ? Reason for who to start working on the system ?
nradov 8y ago
The Indian government is probably also concerned that if the USA ever gets into a shooting war with China or Russia, the GPS constellation could be destroyed by anti-satellite weapons (or at least rendered temporarily inoperable by other means).
- coolspot 8y ago
  If USA, China and Russia go to war with each other, there will be no satellites left. Not US', nor India's.

andyjohnson0 8y ago

I didn't understand this. How would the GPS system allow the US to know the location of Pakistani soldiers? GPS satellites only transmit and GPS receivers only receive - there is no return path that would disclose the location. What am I missing?

nacnud 8y ago
Only a guess, but at that time wasn't the GPS signal intentionally degraded for non-US-military use, with reduced accuracy? Perhaps they're talking about the more precise signal, which the US didn't let them use.
- andyjohnson0 8y ago
  Yes, "selective availability" was still in use then - but I can't see how its use or not would disclose a GPS user's position.
  - Arnt 8y ago
    "I need a missile strike. My position according to GPS is x and the Pakistani you should hit are 920m straight north of me according to my rangefinder."
rajeshpant 8y ago
Its not about location of foot soldiers. Although the article highlights about GPS, it is mapping in general. India wanted terrain and altitude data for making strategy.
hshehehjdjdjd 8y ago
https://m.timesofindia.com/home/science/How-Kargil-spurred-India-to-design-own-GPS/articleshow/33254691.cms https://m.timesofindia.com/home/science/How-Kargil-spurred-I... This seems to have moderately more information. It seems like maybe they wanted to use GPS capabilities in their guided weapons systems, and the US would not permit it or perhaps threatened to disable the system in that theater? It’s a bit confusing and fuzzy.
stedaniels 8y ago
There are many scenarios, but here's a simple one. Boots on the ground. You have men on the ground who can see the enemy position, they need to know exactly where they are to be able to know exactly where the enemy is. Without GPS you are relying on visual points of reference against maps of shaky providence.
- bluGill 8y ago
  Boots on the ground don't need to be accurate to within 1cm. If a normal human is within 10 meters they can nearly always figure things out. In fact if humans are that close it is because you don't actually know where the enemy is and you need the humans to find them - otherwise you would have a plane drop a bomb on them. Where you need more accuracy is when you want something at a long distance to do something - drop a bomb or something.
michaelt 8y ago
As far as I can tell, all the online reports have been written 15+ years after the fact, and they all just quote one another; I suspect the journalists may be mistaken. It's worth bearing in mind the Kargil War took place in 1999, and GPS Selective Availability wasn't turned off until May 2000. It might be that India asked for the SA seed key so their own forces/missiles could navigate more accurately, but were denied?
- chiph 8y ago
  IIRC, with SA on, accuracy was to within 100 meters. And that's enough for troop movements but not accurate enough for missiles and artillery. So using it for land navigation would have been fine. It's sounding like it was a case of "We want it because we want it"
  - rdsubhas 8y ago
    Kargil is one of the highest battlefields on Earth. I don't think I'd compare Himalayan warfare to "land navigation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_warfare#Kashmir_conflicts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_warfare#Kashmir_confl... > The most dangerous and volatile of all mountain conflicts involves the ongoing one between India and Pakistan over the Kashmir region.
    - chiph 8y ago
      It's a generic term meaning "How do I get my troops from here to there" either by vehicle or marching, such that they don't get lost and arrive when needed. This is the classic way with map + compass. GPS just makes it easier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNohNPqWlU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNohNPqWlU
SoulMan 8y ago
Also because swearing-in ceremony of Barack Obama as US President in January 2009 had a disastrous impact on the test-firing of the BrahMos supersonic missile https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/national/how-obama-swearing-in-scuttled-brahmos-missiles-test-flight/article23103459.ece https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/news/national/how-obama...
- sdhgaiojfsa 8y ago
  > But an apprehensive US official turned down the request and told Kalam: “Sorry Dr Kalam, we will give you good lunch and dinner, but no Craig computer.” > Kalam came back empty-handed, but went on to develop the Pace Plus computer with help from the Indian Institute of Science and others in two years. And, Pace Plus proved to be 20 times faster than Craig! This type of thing sounds incredibly childish and jingoistic to my American ears. Does it read better to folks who learned to speak English in India, or is it just really awful writing? Also, as best I can tell, there is no "Craig" super computer. Does the author mean Cray? And if so, why was the scientist asking the USG? You would normally want to get such computers from the manufacturer, not a foreign government, however friendly.
  - dilawar 8y ago
    That's the usual state of news reporting. People just love discourse of conspiracy over here.
    - shripadk 8y ago
      It's not a conspiracy. The sale of Cray supercomputers was indeed blocked by the US Government. Just because the article is badly written doesn't negate the facts on the ground.
  - shripadk 8y ago
    http://www.rediff.com/computer/dec/18super.htm http://www.rediff.com/computer/dec/18super.htm I agree that it is awful writing. I hope the article above is written better. > Does the author mean Cray? And if so, why was the scientist asking the USG? You would normally want to get such computers from the manufacturer, not a foreign government, however friendly. It's not possible to directly purchase from manufacturers if the US Government is going to block the purchase on various grounds. Don't forget that there was a period where sanctions and arms embargo was also imposed on India. It's a different thing that today the US considers India a "strategic partner" but it wasn't always the case. As far as Cray goes, they even setup an award in the name of the scientist mentioned in the article (who also served as the President of India from 2002 to 2007 [1]): https://www.cray.com/blog/cray-hpc-awards-honor-achievements-india/ https://www.cray.com/blog/cray-hpc-awards-honor-achievements... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._P._J._Abdul_Kalam
inglor 8y ago
GPS broadcasts several signals, the higher precision ones are encrypted - until 1999 GPS was encrypted at much lower resolution but the army and armies it shares its tech with still operate at a higher resolution. The US can lock countries out of higher resolution GPS at will - this (and GLONASS) make sense because of it.
jhayward 8y ago
I would speculate that India wanted access to the encrypted military GPS signal, which would have given them 10-1000 times more accurate guidance for precision weapons.

rrrazdan 8y ago

Case of typical uninformed journalism. The basic use would be independent and reliable GPS guided munition.

igravious 8y ago
GPS is the US system. GNSS is the generic term. The basic use is navigation (the N is GNSS). That capability can be used for both civilian and military purposes. Chances are that even though it will be used by the Indian military it will be used far more often for civilian purposes.
- rrrazdan 8y ago
  Yes, my bad on the GPS/GNSS. Yet on the use cases for this, I don't think India would have ponied up the money for this if it wasn't for the military use. With GPS, Galileo, Beidou and Glonass, the civilian navigation problem is pretty much solved. Are you aware of a use case it is solving that the others aren't?

adventured 8y ago

> India took a firm decision on IRNSS in 1999 after the US government refused to share GPS data Given India's rising position in the world economically (they'll have the fifth largest economy in two years or so) and militarily, they'd have been crazy to not go forward with their own system regardless. That's particularly the case given India has a very complex position among all the powers, from the US to the EU to Russia to China. They're far less blatantly aligned one direction or another than the rest. Their general geo-political neighborhood presents wild security considerations. To be a fully independent power in the coming decades, they'll want to gradually acquire their own capabilities at most things.

buildfailure 8y ago

Where exactly does it say this the reason to start working on the "system" ? Also what do you mean by "work on the system" ? Reason for who to start working on the system ?

nradov 8y ago

The Indian government is probably also concerned that if the USA ever gets into a shooting war with China or Russia, the GPS constellation could be destroyed by anti-satellite weapons (or at least rendered temporarily inoperable by other means).

coolspot 8y ago
If USA, China and Russia go to war with each other, there will be no satellites left. Not US', nor India's.