22 ms·

The enemy within: Gut bacteria drive autoimmune disease

232 points by montrose 9y ago

DataWorker 9y ago
Is the suggestion that this particular bacteria is behind all forms of systemic lupus or merely that this bacteria can cause such a response? Thats an important difference.
- vanderZwan 9y ago
  Similarly, this headline makes it sound like all autoimmune diseases stem from gut bacteria. That sounds unlikely.
  - ianai 9y ago
    Quote “the research team found that they could suppress autoimmunity in mice with an antibiotic or a vaccine aimed at E. gallinarum.” The titles vague to the point of clickbait. On topic, there is much going on with bacteria. My hunch is this could be a large research area for the next couple decades. We’re talking about a system composed of trillions of individuals and an unknown (but large) number of species and all their interactions. I’m sure there will be bacterial “combinations” that in certain situations are helpful and others deadly, for instance.
  - code_duck 9y ago
    Having one autoimmune disease increases the likelihood that you have or will develop another one. They also have cross-reactivity on tests. For instance, false positives on the TTG/IGA for celiac are 2% for healthy patients, but rise to 20% for subjects with type 1 diabetes. Celiac patients have a drastically higher rate of Hashimoto’s, autoimmune thyroid disease: https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/718160?keywords=celiac-disease-Hashimotos-thyroiditis-link https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/718160?keywords=ce... and also the liver disease cited in the article: https://www.verywell.com/celiac-disease-and-liver-diseases-562618 https://www.verywell.com/celiac-disease-and-liver-diseases-5... Celiac patients also suffer higher rates of MS: https://multiplesclerosisnewstoday.com/2015/05/14/celiac-disease-found-linked-increased-risk-multiple-sclerosis-nerve-damage/ https://multiplesclerosisnewstoday.com/2015/05/14/celiac-dis... MS doesn’t seem gut related on the surface, but you can get almost identical neurological symptoms from celiac. I know because this is what drinking beer does to me. So, the roots of all of these diseases could definitely be related.
    - vanderZwan 9y ago
      > So, the roots of all of these diseases could definitely be related. Well, yes, but by definition they already have one connection at the root: the immune system. So increased comorbidity could also be explained by having a kind of immune system that fundamentally is more likely to develop auto-immune diseases.
  - rosegold 9y ago
    This is not the only research regarding microbiome and autoimmune disease. While this article states that their findings seem most promising for Lupus Nephritis, there are recent articles that point to other microbes which are relevant to rheumatoid arthritis: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160711151315.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160711151315.h... and https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/gut-microbes-linked-rheumatoid-arthritis https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/gut-mic... among many others with the search "rheumatoid arthritis and gut microbes". See this for MS https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-germs-appear-to-play-role-in-multiple-sclerosis/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sa-editorial-social&utm_content=link-post&utm_term=health_partner_text_free&sf113425307=1 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-germs-appear-... This is my all time favorite that just came out in Nature which shows that anti-inflammatories may contribute to slow growth of beneficial gut microbes. I have identified at least two first line DMARD's used in rheumatoid arthritis that are mentioned in this article. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02780-x?utm_source=twt_na&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=NNPreshigh https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02780-x?utm_sourc... So, while autoimmune diseases amy not stem from gut bacteria, there is definitely some relationship about which we need to learn more.
eloff 9y ago
My mom has Hashimoto’s which she's managed successfully for years using a low daily dosage of doxycycline. This suggests a mechanism for why that seems to work for her.
- fest 9y ago
  Did her endocrinologist prescribe her antibiotic? I'm asking this because I have Hashimoto's myself and none of the endocrinologists I've seen recommended anything else besides levothyroxine.
  - aviv 9y ago
    Depends on the pharma rep in their area.
  - eloff 9y ago
    No, she and my dad just did their own research online and gave it a try. Seems to have worked out really well for her. Her goiter shrank and she had to reduce her thyroid meds. Low dose doxycycline seems who tolerated, and has an interesting side effect of reducing inflammation to near zero in the body (CRP levels of actually zero). Given the role of inflammation in heart disease, that might be helpful for longevity too. There's actually a drug, periostat that's prescribed in this way for oral health. It's 20mg doxycycline taken daily long term. There are studies on it available online.
    - throwaway5752 9y ago
      This is why we have drug resistant bacteria, in a nutshell. Glad your mother's health is better, but if even a small number of people started following this regimen, it would be come useless in a relatively small number of years. edit: I would love it if just one person could tell me how I'm wrong instead of downvoting. Long term low dose antibiotic treatment (doxy is a tetracycline) is how this happens. If you look up how I'm wrong before downvoting, I suspect you will end up not doing so, and perhaps learn something new.
      - 9y ago
andreygrehov 9y ago
See the paper here: https://sci-hub.tw/downloads/2c98/10.1126@science.aar7201.pdf https://sci-hub.tw/downloads/2c98/10.1126@science.aar7201.pd...
sound1 9y ago
I went to an ayurvedic doctor (in India, my friend insisted) and he said the exact same thing. He even said all allergy problems arise because of issuees in the digestive tract. At the time I thought he was just saying it but who knows there might be some truth in what he said.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > I went to an ayurvedic doctor “Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda third paragraph
  - smallnamespace 9y ago
    Unfortunately, we're not at the point where science possesses a monopoly on working medicine. Believing that every pre-scientific practice is pure hocus-pocus that should be rejected out of hand seems to be a strange conceit.
    - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
      > we're not at the point where science possesses a monopoly on working medicine Science is the best mechanism we’ve found for developing towards truth. > Believing that every pre-scientific practice is pure hocus-pocus that should be rejected out of hand seems to be a strange conceit Red herring. I’m not saying it should be dismissed for research purposes. It is a pseudoscience because its practitioners make unfounded, and in certain cases false, claims.
      - etiam 9y ago
        > Science is the best mechanism we’ve found for developing towards truth. Mostly by destroying theories that don't hold up to scrutiny. Possibilities still need to come from somewhere. > I’m not saying it should be dismissed for research purposes. It is a pseudoscience because its practitioners make unfounded, and in certain cases false, claims. Good. We're mostly in agreement then. The nuances of that position were hardly clear from your original short post though, so I sympathize with smallnamespace's remark.
aviv 9y ago
Another reason why water fasting is highly effective at curing many diseases.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > water fasting is highly effective at curing many diseases Has this been demonstrated?
  - JoshMnem 9y ago
    I don't know about "curing" but it can be surprisingly effective for systemic inflammation. I think it's one of the most promising areas for autoimmune research. https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/ https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regene...
  - asdf1234tx 9y ago
    "...it can be argued that caloric restriction ... has the potential to accelerate the healing process..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25881054 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25881054 "...fasting ... has the potential to differentially protect normal and cancer cells against chemotherapy..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/ "...Autophagy is sometimes referred to as cellular “cleansing”, and our observations provide an attractive neuronal parallel to the organismal benefits that, historically, are perceived to derive from fasting." "...short-term food restriction induces a dramatic upregulation of autophagy in cortical and Purkinje neurons. To our knowledge, this is the first demonstration that food restriction leads to in vivo neuronal autophagy." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/
    - aviv 9y ago
      The day Big Pharma finds a way to profit from patients not consuming anything but water for 10 to 40 days and getting rid of diseases that used to require lifelong drug regimen, the research flood gates will open. But ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. There's no money in fasting, and no one can patent it.
chiefalchemist 9y ago
The gut is the new "great unknown." Understanding it takes a more holistic approach. Western medicine / science is typically not very holistic-centric. It's not going to surprise me if many of the cures / remedies offered by "non traditional medicine" (read: lessons from human history) little by litte get more credit for their worthiness.
- JoshMnem 9y ago
  I don't know why people are downvoting you. Things like microbiome, calorie restriction, diet, and water fasting are very promising "non-traditional" areas for dealing with systemic inflammation, and they definitely can work. Researchers should be paying more attention to those areas. Doctors often have no good answers for those diseases -- they often don't even diagnose them promptly and correctly. There is some research, but not enough yet. And some of the previous studies were not designed well. I'd put water fasting in a "non-traditional" approach that should be looked at more closely, though many other "non-traditional" things, like homeopathy, have been debunked. This is very interesting: https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/ https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regene...
  - JoshMnem 9y ago
    I'm a skeptic, but knee-jerk skepticism is sometimes as bad as woo. I'm guessing that the downvoters have no experience with these kinds of conditions or what it's like to deal with the medical system around autoimmune conditions. I could tell you many stories about it. I know one person who didn't get his autoimmune disease correctly diagnosed for 20 years. He now has serious problems due to lack of treatment for all that time. Even today, many doctors do not know basic information about those conditions (or sometimes even basic anatomy). The current state of autoimmune diagnosis is still absolutely terrible. Woo is dangerous, but so is knee-jerk skepticism. I'm not complaining about modern medicine -- just that you shouldn't necessarily be so quick to downvote something if a medical doctor hasn't given their stamp of approval. Science does not have enough information yet to confidently and safely treat these problems, and it has provided many clues about the microbiome, intestinal permeability, and water fasting on the immune system. If you haven't heard of those things, I suggest reading some studies before downvoting.
cyrusshepard 9y ago
If anyone is interested in a way to treat E. gallinarum—and other potentially pathogens—without antibiotics, you should look into phage therapy. Phages are viruses that attack specific bacteria, have been used for decades, are commercially available (even on Amazon) and are generally considered safe for human consumption. Granted, phage therapy typically targets gut pathogens, and in this study the E. gallinarum had traveled to other parts of the body. But many people I have talked to who use phage therapy have reported improved symptoms and in some cases even reversal of autoimmune disease. And yes, phages that you can buy today without a prescription target Enterococcus bacteria, which includes E. gallinarum. The gut is a wonderful, mysterious place that most of us neglect.
- amelius 9y ago
  Sounds interesting, but how would you know which species to attack?
  - cyrusshepard 9y ago
    Most commercial phages in the US (can't speak for the rest of the world) are comprised of these 4: LH01 – Myoviridae LL5 – Siphoviridae T4D Myoviridae LL12 – Myoviridae You can research all of these, but these 4 specifically target a specific but broad range of potentially pathogenic bacteria, including E. Coli (though not all E. Coli is bad) and other species. Generally if you take them together they provide effective treatment against a broad range of inflammatory agents. Disclaimer: Not a doctor, just someone who suffered decades of gut problems and eventually healed himself.
    - amelius 9y ago
      Would these bacteria show up in a stool test? It would have my preference to first test myself, with the benefits of not taking any therapies I don't need, AND also for getting an objective measure of the effectiveness of the therapy. By the way, I've read that phage therapy is big in Georgia: https://www.nature.com/news/phage-therapy-gets-revitalized-1.15348 https://www.nature.com/news/phage-therapy-gets-revitalized-1...
asdf1234tx 9y ago
I'm no expert, but here's the sequence (in reverse order) as I see it (for now): bad-things-happening <<< crazed-immune-system <<< crazed-gut-bacteria <<< 1st-world-bad-living Anything that treats "bad things happening", or "crazed immune system", or "crazed gut bacteria", will be a bandaid. I think our first world lifestyles create a perfect storm of bad living that undermines the foundations of a healthy human being from a multitude of vectors. Not enough sunlight, not enough unprocessed fresh foods, not enough exercise, not enough fresh air, long term consumption and exposure to compounds and chemicals that work against your bodies natural processes. A friend of mine had to go every other month to sit in a chair for 4 hours at a clinic to receive an IV drip that included medication to squash his immune system. Why? Because his immune system was attacking every joint in his body. He could not move without extreme pain without the treatment. Eventually he stopped eating the cheapest and most processed of garbage food, started exercising every day, gave up alcohol and diet sodas, and lost 75lbs. He found that he no longer needed the medication after about a year of turning his life around...
- zilian 9y ago
  I know it's very tempting to blame everything to our "1st world bad living", but please do not spread misinformation like this about autoimmune diseases. I am 27, always ate healthy and was very active, yet I started developing ankylosing spondylytis 3 years ago, a very painful AI disease which attacks your articulations. And you know what ? We know that many Pharaohs of ancient Egypt had it too, including Ramses II : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12548434 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12548434 So long for the 1st-world, industrialized society as the root of all evils... Moreover, sounds like your friend was on biologics. Sure, losing 75pds will help lowering the inflammation and pressure on articulations anyway. But there's NO evidence it's not just a pause in flares, sorry for your friend. I met many people with AI diseases and to date have met no one who can prove he "healed" with a change in diet. Happy to discuss about it in PM if some read that comment !
  - rosegold 9y ago
    A recent study indicates clinical evidence for remission through diet in IBD: "Clinical remission was achieved by week 6 by 11/15 (73%) of study participants, and all 11 maintained clinical remission during the maintenance phase of the study." Konijeti, Gauree Gupta et al. “Efficacy of the Autoimmune Protocol Diet for Inflammatory Bowel Disease.” Inflammatory bowel diseases 23.11 (2017): 2054–2060. PMC. Web. 9 Apr. 2018. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647120/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647120/
neom 9y ago
As someone with vitiligo, wonder if there is something similar in us.

232 points by montrose 9y ago

Is the suggestion that this particular bacteria is behind all forms of systemic lupus or merely that this bacteria can cause such a response? Thats an important difference.

vanderZwan 9y ago
Similarly, this headline makes it sound like all autoimmune diseases stem from gut bacteria. That sounds unlikely.
- ianai 9y ago
  Quote “the research team found that they could suppress autoimmunity in mice with an antibiotic or a vaccine aimed at E. gallinarum.” The titles vague to the point of clickbait. On topic, there is much going on with bacteria. My hunch is this could be a large research area for the next couple decades. We’re talking about a system composed of trillions of individuals and an unknown (but large) number of species and all their interactions. I’m sure there will be bacterial “combinations” that in certain situations are helpful and others deadly, for instance.
- code_duck 9y ago
  Having one autoimmune disease increases the likelihood that you have or will develop another one. They also have cross-reactivity on tests. For instance, false positives on the TTG/IGA for celiac are 2% for healthy patients, but rise to 20% for subjects with type 1 diabetes. Celiac patients have a drastically higher rate of Hashimoto’s, autoimmune thyroid disease: https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/718160?keywords=celiac-disease-Hashimotos-thyroiditis-link https://www.newsmax.com/t/newsmax/article/718160?keywords=ce... and also the liver disease cited in the article: https://www.verywell.com/celiac-disease-and-liver-diseases-562618 https://www.verywell.com/celiac-disease-and-liver-diseases-5... Celiac patients also suffer higher rates of MS: https://multiplesclerosisnewstoday.com/2015/05/14/celiac-disease-found-linked-increased-risk-multiple-sclerosis-nerve-damage/ https://multiplesclerosisnewstoday.com/2015/05/14/celiac-dis... MS doesn’t seem gut related on the surface, but you can get almost identical neurological symptoms from celiac. I know because this is what drinking beer does to me. So, the roots of all of these diseases could definitely be related.
  - vanderZwan 9y ago
    > So, the roots of all of these diseases could definitely be related. Well, yes, but by definition they already have one connection at the root: the immune system. So increased comorbidity could also be explained by having a kind of immune system that fundamentally is more likely to develop auto-immune diseases.
- rosegold 9y ago
  This is not the only research regarding microbiome and autoimmune disease. While this article states that their findings seem most promising for Lupus Nephritis, there are recent articles that point to other microbes which are relevant to rheumatoid arthritis: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160711151315.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/07/160711151315.h... and https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/gut-microbes-linked-rheumatoid-arthritis https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/gut-mic... among many others with the search "rheumatoid arthritis and gut microbes". See this for MS https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-germs-appear-to-play-role-in-multiple-sclerosis/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sa-editorial-social&utm_content=link-post&utm_term=health_partner_text_free&sf113425307=1 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/gut-germs-appear-... This is my all time favorite that just came out in Nature which shows that anti-inflammatories may contribute to slow growth of beneficial gut microbes. I have identified at least two first line DMARD's used in rheumatoid arthritis that are mentioned in this article. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02780-x?utm_source=twt_na&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=NNPreshigh https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-02780-x?utm_sourc... So, while autoimmune diseases amy not stem from gut bacteria, there is definitely some relationship about which we need to learn more.

eloff 9y ago

My mom has Hashimoto’s which she's managed successfully for years using a low daily dosage of doxycycline. This suggests a mechanism for why that seems to work for her.

fest 9y ago
Did her endocrinologist prescribe her antibiotic? I'm asking this because I have Hashimoto's myself and none of the endocrinologists I've seen recommended anything else besides levothyroxine.
- aviv 9y ago
  Depends on the pharma rep in their area.
- eloff 9y ago
  No, she and my dad just did their own research online and gave it a try. Seems to have worked out really well for her. Her goiter shrank and she had to reduce her thyroid meds. Low dose doxycycline seems who tolerated, and has an interesting side effect of reducing inflammation to near zero in the body (CRP levels of actually zero). Given the role of inflammation in heart disease, that might be helpful for longevity too. There's actually a drug, periostat that's prescribed in this way for oral health. It's 20mg doxycycline taken daily long term. There are studies on it available online.
  - throwaway5752 9y ago
    This is why we have drug resistant bacteria, in a nutshell. Glad your mother's health is better, but if even a small number of people started following this regimen, it would be come useless in a relatively small number of years. edit: I would love it if just one person could tell me how I'm wrong instead of downvoting. Long term low dose antibiotic treatment (doxy is a tetracycline) is how this happens. If you look up how I'm wrong before downvoting, I suspect you will end up not doing so, and perhaps learn something new.
    - 9y ago

andreygrehov 9y ago

See the paper here: https://sci-hub.tw/downloads/2c98/10.1126@science.aar7201.pdf https://sci-hub.tw/downloads/2c98/10.1126@science.aar7201.pd...

sound1 9y ago

I went to an ayurvedic doctor (in India, my friend insisted) and he said the exact same thing. He even said all allergy problems arise because of issuees in the digestive tract. At the time I thought he was just saying it but who knows there might be some truth in what he said.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> I went to an ayurvedic doctor “Ayurveda medicine is considered pseudoscientific” [1]. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayurveda third paragraph
- smallnamespace 9y ago
  Unfortunately, we're not at the point where science possesses a monopoly on working medicine. Believing that every pre-scientific practice is pure hocus-pocus that should be rejected out of hand seems to be a strange conceit.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > we're not at the point where science possesses a monopoly on working medicine Science is the best mechanism we’ve found for developing towards truth. > Believing that every pre-scientific practice is pure hocus-pocus that should be rejected out of hand seems to be a strange conceit Red herring. I’m not saying it should be dismissed for research purposes. It is a pseudoscience because its practitioners make unfounded, and in certain cases false, claims.
    - etiam 9y ago
      > Science is the best mechanism we’ve found for developing towards truth. Mostly by destroying theories that don't hold up to scrutiny. Possibilities still need to come from somewhere. > I’m not saying it should be dismissed for research purposes. It is a pseudoscience because its practitioners make unfounded, and in certain cases false, claims. Good. We're mostly in agreement then. The nuances of that position were hardly clear from your original short post though, so I sympathize with smallnamespace's remark.

aviv 9y ago

Another reason why water fasting is highly effective at curing many diseases.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> water fasting is highly effective at curing many diseases Has this been demonstrated?
- JoshMnem 9y ago
  I don't know about "curing" but it can be surprisingly effective for systemic inflammation. I think it's one of the most promising areas for autoimmune research. https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/ https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regene...
- asdf1234tx 9y ago
  "...it can be argued that caloric restriction ... has the potential to accelerate the healing process..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25881054 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25881054 "...fasting ... has the potential to differentially protect normal and cancer cells against chemotherapy..." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815756/ "...Autophagy is sometimes referred to as cellular “cleansing”, and our observations provide an attractive neuronal parallel to the organismal benefits that, historically, are perceived to derive from fasting." "...short-term food restriction induces a dramatic upregulation of autophagy in cortical and Purkinje neurons. To our knowledge, this is the first demonstration that food restriction leads to in vivo neuronal autophagy." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3106288/
  - aviv 9y ago
    The day Big Pharma finds a way to profit from patients not consuming anything but water for 10 to 40 days and getting rid of diseases that used to require lifelong drug regimen, the research flood gates will open. But ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. There's no money in fasting, and no one can patent it.

chiefalchemist 9y ago

The gut is the new "great unknown." Understanding it takes a more holistic approach. Western medicine / science is typically not very holistic-centric. It's not going to surprise me if many of the cures / remedies offered by "non traditional medicine" (read: lessons from human history) little by litte get more credit for their worthiness.

JoshMnem 9y ago
I don't know why people are downvoting you. Things like microbiome, calorie restriction, diet, and water fasting are very promising "non-traditional" areas for dealing with systemic inflammation, and they definitely can work. Researchers should be paying more attention to those areas. Doctors often have no good answers for those diseases -- they often don't even diagnose them promptly and correctly. There is some research, but not enough yet. And some of the previous studies were not designed well. I'd put water fasting in a "non-traditional" approach that should be looked at more closely, though many other "non-traditional" things, like homeopathy, have been debunked. This is very interesting: https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regeneration-of-damaged-old-immune-system/ https://news.usc.edu/63669/fasting-triggers-stem-cell-regene...
- JoshMnem 9y ago
  I'm a skeptic, but knee-jerk skepticism is sometimes as bad as woo. I'm guessing that the downvoters have no experience with these kinds of conditions or what it's like to deal with the medical system around autoimmune conditions. I could tell you many stories about it. I know one person who didn't get his autoimmune disease correctly diagnosed for 20 years. He now has serious problems due to lack of treatment for all that time. Even today, many doctors do not know basic information about those conditions (or sometimes even basic anatomy). The current state of autoimmune diagnosis is still absolutely terrible. Woo is dangerous, but so is knee-jerk skepticism. I'm not complaining about modern medicine -- just that you shouldn't necessarily be so quick to downvote something if a medical doctor hasn't given their stamp of approval. Science does not have enough information yet to confidently and safely treat these problems, and it has provided many clues about the microbiome, intestinal permeability, and water fasting on the immune system. If you haven't heard of those things, I suggest reading some studies before downvoting.

cyrusshepard 9y ago

If anyone is interested in a way to treat E. gallinarum—and other potentially pathogens—without antibiotics, you should look into phage therapy. Phages are viruses that attack specific bacteria, have been used for decades, are commercially available (even on Amazon) and are generally considered safe for human consumption. Granted, phage therapy typically targets gut pathogens, and in this study the E. gallinarum had traveled to other parts of the body. But many people I have talked to who use phage therapy have reported improved symptoms and in some cases even reversal of autoimmune disease. And yes, phages that you can buy today without a prescription target Enterococcus bacteria, which includes E. gallinarum. The gut is a wonderful, mysterious place that most of us neglect.

amelius 9y ago
Sounds interesting, but how would you know which species to attack?
- cyrusshepard 9y ago
  Most commercial phages in the US (can't speak for the rest of the world) are comprised of these 4: LH01 – Myoviridae LL5 – Siphoviridae T4D Myoviridae LL12 – Myoviridae You can research all of these, but these 4 specifically target a specific but broad range of potentially pathogenic bacteria, including E. Coli (though not all E. Coli is bad) and other species. Generally if you take them together they provide effective treatment against a broad range of inflammatory agents. Disclaimer: Not a doctor, just someone who suffered decades of gut problems and eventually healed himself.
  - amelius 9y ago
    Would these bacteria show up in a stool test? It would have my preference to first test myself, with the benefits of not taking any therapies I don't need, AND also for getting an objective measure of the effectiveness of the therapy. By the way, I've read that phage therapy is big in Georgia: https://www.nature.com/news/phage-therapy-gets-revitalized-1.15348 https://www.nature.com/news/phage-therapy-gets-revitalized-1...

asdf1234tx 9y ago

I'm no expert, but here's the sequence (in reverse order) as I see it (for now): bad-things-happening <<< crazed-immune-system <<< crazed-gut-bacteria <<< 1st-world-bad-living Anything that treats "bad things happening", or "crazed immune system", or "crazed gut bacteria", will be a bandaid. I think our first world lifestyles create a perfect storm of bad living that undermines the foundations of a healthy human being from a multitude of vectors. Not enough sunlight, not enough unprocessed fresh foods, not enough exercise, not enough fresh air, long term consumption and exposure to compounds and chemicals that work against your bodies natural processes. A friend of mine had to go every other month to sit in a chair for 4 hours at a clinic to receive an IV drip that included medication to squash his immune system. Why? Because his immune system was attacking every joint in his body. He could not move without extreme pain without the treatment. Eventually he stopped eating the cheapest and most processed of garbage food, started exercising every day, gave up alcohol and diet sodas, and lost 75lbs. He found that he no longer needed the medication after about a year of turning his life around...

zilian 9y ago
I know it's very tempting to blame everything to our "1st world bad living", but please do not spread misinformation like this about autoimmune diseases. I am 27, always ate healthy and was very active, yet I started developing ankylosing spondylytis 3 years ago, a very painful AI disease which attacks your articulations. And you know what ? We know that many Pharaohs of ancient Egypt had it too, including Ramses II : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12548434 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12548434 So long for the 1st-world, industrialized society as the root of all evils... Moreover, sounds like your friend was on biologics. Sure, losing 75pds will help lowering the inflammation and pressure on articulations anyway. But there's NO evidence it's not just a pause in flares, sorry for your friend. I met many people with AI diseases and to date have met no one who can prove he "healed" with a change in diet. Happy to discuss about it in PM if some read that comment !
- rosegold 9y ago
  A recent study indicates clinical evidence for remission through diet in IBD: "Clinical remission was achieved by week 6 by 11/15 (73%) of study participants, and all 11 maintained clinical remission during the maintenance phase of the study." Konijeti, Gauree Gupta et al. “Efficacy of the Autoimmune Protocol Diet for Inflammatory Bowel Disease.” Inflammatory bowel diseases 23.11 (2017): 2054–2060. PMC. Web. 9 Apr. 2018. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647120/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647120/

neom 9y ago

As someone with vitiligo, wonder if there is something similar in us.