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The biggest problem with touchbar is that Apple intentionally made non-touchbar model inferior in terms of hardware and the amount of USB-C ports to make sure p
by rwz 9y ago
The biggest problem with touchbar is that Apple intentionally made non-touchbar model inferior in terms of hardware and the amount of USB-C ports to make sure ppl buy touchbar. This is truly infuriating and I'm sure, was done for purely marketing reasons.
I'd buy a non-touchbar model if it had the same hardware as a touchbar model in a heartbeat.
- mikenew 9y agoDon't forget the huge price hike "because of the touchbar" that included the non-touchbar model.
- sundvor 9y agoThat's their "because we know you'll buy it anyway" factor.
- mikenew 9y agoI know I’m just one guy, but I was planning on an upgrade before they released it and I did not, in fact, buy it anyway.
- sundvor 9y agoGood. :) The touch bar would be why - as opposed to price, right?
- mikenew 9y agoI have been using exclusivly Apple computers for about 25 years. I have been an iOS developer for about 8 of those. The Mac Pro debacle is a whole different rant, but there were three factors related to their new laptops (many other complaints related to developer support, tooling, and so on. again, different rant) that made me decide to stop purchasing my computers from Apple and transition away from iOS development. First, they introduced the touchbar, which is a feature that is clearly not designed for me (programmer, vim, etc.). In fact it isn't just useless for me; it interferes with the way I work. Second, using the touchbar as justification, they raised the price to nearly $3000 if you want a 15" screen and a 500G hard drive. Upgrading every 3 or 4 years becomes incredibly expensive. And third, they deliberately crippled the non-touchbar version of the macbook and will not let you spec it high enough to be competitive with the touchbar versions. You can't even get it with a dedicated graphics card. If the touchbar is so compelling then it should be a feature people choose. Intentionally crippling the machine to force people into an upsell is just maddening. Especially when I'm a developer that contributes to their ecosystem and what they're trying to upsell is completely irrelevant to me. Not only am I no longer in their target market; they won't even accommodate my needs.
- sundvor 9y agoI read you, and I'd think what you describe is a very common scenario among serious devs. I don't understand Apple's thoughts process at all here. How Apple has destroyed their high end product (at least as far as devs is concerned) is baffling to me, as the rest of the design is exquisite - at least if you could get use to the short key travel. The 4:3 display is especially a highlight, and so is the unibody with that titanium colour. I develop on a new, non-touch MBP. Even though it's a basic model, I struggled to believe the price of the unit when compared to a high end Dell XPS 15 or X1 Carbon. I would have preferred the (much) faster touchbar model, as I just use it with an external keyboard/mouse anyway. (I'll give Apple bonus points for forcing me to boot into OSX before rebooting with Bootcamp to Windows 10 to get CPU virtualisation / Docker enabled.)
- crispinb 9y agoPretty much same boat. I'm still on a pre-touchbar MB Pro, and it's hard to imagine any circumstances under which I'd buy another Apple machine (maybe if I needed to do native iOS work for some reason). I've held off buying another MB largely because switching habits/software to another OS always seems like something I'd like to shelve. I've managed to keep my current ageing machine viable by offloading increasing amounts of work to AWS, Linode, Raspberry Pis, etc. But this won't go on for ever, and Apple's current laptop line is completely irrelevant to me.
- sdenton4 9y agoI'm getting near two years past refresh date on my work laptop. The touchpad is getting pretty funny, but I've not upgraded because of the bar and the approximately one acre that the new touchpad takes up, like they want me to hit it mistakenly while typing...
- bryanrasmussen 9y agothe touchbar adds to price, so if it's price it might be the touchbar.
- s_kilk 9y agoSame, I went back to Linux on a thinkpad instead. I'm still happy with that move.
- eneveu 9y agoI would also be in the market for a new Macbook Pro, but their touch bar is dissuading me... The other thing I'm waiting for is 32 GB of RAM. I guess I'll keep using my 15" MBP (Retina, 15-inch, Mid 2014) for now... If it breaks before they fix their MBP lineup, I'll see if I can buy a 2015 version ( https://marco.org/2017/11/14/best-laptop-ever https://marco.org/2017/11/14/best-laptop-ever ). Or I'll look at Thinkpads.
- hjnilsson 9y agoI would buy the one without the Touch Bar, even if it cost more! I would almost assume that if they ever make a new model without the touch bar, there would be no price reduction for it.
- lloeki 9y ago> price hike "because of the touchbar" To be fair it's not the TB itself that bumps the price but the addition of a second TB controller and a beefier CPU.
- userbinator 9y agoI wonder how hard (easy) it would be to swap the parts between them, given that these are (mostly) still PCs, and determined people have done some pretty amazing things to other pieces of Apple hardware: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15190199 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15190199
- cottsak 9y agoDon't wonder, see for yourself: https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Display+Late+2013+Teardown/18695 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+D... https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Touch+Bar+2017+Teardown/92171 https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Touch+Ba... Not a lot has changed in the past few years. Macbook Pros are NOT easy to mod/change or swap parts. This is very clearly the intention of Apple.
- userbinator 9y agoMacbook Pros are NOT easy to mod/change or swap parts. This is very clearly the intention of Apple. Of course, but that hasn't completely stopped determined people from trying (and succeeding) --- look at the link I posted to where someone added a headphone jack back to an iPhone. As long as the dimensions are vaguely compatible, the guts of the touchbar model might fit into the non-touchbar case. Some machining and creativity required. The only downside is the cost (unless you somehow find salvage parts), but someone who really wanted to could do it.
- TeMPOraL 9y ago> Some machining and creativity required. And high stress tolerance. I mean, if - per recent HN thread - people obsess over putting a CPU into their PC because it feels like breaking a piece of expensive electronics, I can only imagine what a Macbook owner feels when applying a lathe to their prized possession...
- voxadam 9y ago
- paxys 9y agoI get what you're saying, but that doesn't seem like a problem with touchbar, rather the advantage of it..
- merb 9y ago15" has no "new" hardware. the 15" non-touchbar model is the old one, without usb-c and old processor.
- ktta 9y agoThere's a 13" new one without touchbar.
- dragonshed 9y agoAs others have pointed out, the 13" max specs are inferior to the 15" max specs.
- ktta 9y agoTrue, but its 13" non-touchbar max specs are same as touchbar 13". So the comparison isn't really fair.
- azhenley 9y agoThe touch bar 13" has 4 Thunderbolt ports and Intel Iris 650 graphics, compared to the non-touch bar with 2 ports and Intel Iris 640.
- ValentineC 9y agoAdding on: the touchbar 13" has 3x3 MIMO wifi (supporting up to 1300Mbps), while the non-touchbar one only has 2x2 MIMO wifi (going up to 867Mbps).
- gargravarr 9y agoOh, that really IS spiteful.
- JKCalhoun 9y agoHa ha, I was happy it had 2 ports — considered briefly the MacBook Air until I realized it had only 1 port.
- rorykoehler 9y agoIn the same boat as you. Had the money ready to buy a maxed out mbp to replace my 2009 mbp. Ended up buying a maxed out 2013 model for $800 instead.
- donw 9y agoBetween that and the keyboard issues, yeah, there's a reason I haven't picked up a new Mac in awhile.
- pentae 9y agoNot only is it inferior, but it runs hotter. I found out the hard way it only has one fan instead of two. I sold my previous Macbook in disgust for a variety of reasons including still accidentally pressing touchbar buttons a year after use. Anyway my tests showed that it ran about 3-4 degrees C hotter at the keyboard doing the same tasks and after some research found out the missing extra fan is why.
- lloeki 9y agoThanks for the feedback. I was suspecting something as such when looking at TDP and teardowns but could not find a single review talking about this. FWIW I have a early '13 rMBP at home from before they moved to single fan (late '13) and it's definitely better at keeping things in check under load at a decent volume than my work-provided mid '14.
- cottsak 9y agoMe too. Insanely frustrating.
- sundvor 9y agoAgreed; they've intentionally nerfed the normal keyboard models - if I was an Apple user that'd infuriate me no end. To call the range "Pro" is a lie. The biggest problem I see with it is Apple's hate of developers who touch type. Surely there's enough room on that unit to include both the function row and a touch bar? If so, it'd be pretty neat to have for presenting misc information. (It looks nice enough!) Lenovo tried something similar with their 2014 X1 Carbon (I have gen 1, would like to upgrade to latest). Not anywhere as nice looking as the MBP's touch bar, but equal in that they messed up something good. https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/thinkpad-x1-carbon-2014-specs-pricing https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/thinkpad-x1-carbon-2014-s... Fortunately Lenovo saw the errors of their ways and quickly reverted to what I would say is the all-superior layout of the current model (i.e. the one that went before).
- greglindahl 9y agoI touch type, and I've never touch typed a function key.
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y agoThis doesn't mean everyone else follows the same pattern.
- maximilianburke 9y agoI had to (briefly) use a touchbar Mac while running Visual Studio for debugging and the lack of buttons made it an excruciatingly painful process. I never before thought I touch typed function keys, but I actually did.
- pentae 9y agoIf you aren't accessing the volume control or screen brightness keys without looking down then you're not really a touch typist :)
- Brometheus 9y agoYou are not a real touch typist, if you don't write with butterflies.
- theafroc 9y agoI bought a 15" MacBook Pro without the Touch Bar today. It doesn't have any usb c ports but neither did my old MacBook Air, so I don't care. Maybe I am a dinosaur.
- gargravarr 9y agoI persuaded management to buy a pair of older Retina MBPs in our latest batch of non-TB machines. Sure enough, a colleague expressed interest, switched and was much, much happier with the 3-year-old hardware than the gimmicky brand-new machine. And FFS, the number of USB-C adapters I need to keep on hand is a joke, at least you can plug things directly into a Retina without a dongle!!
- sametmax 9y agoIt's not that infuriating, since you gave them your money anyway. And a lot of it. You warmly, and strongly screamed "do that again please" with a big heart shape.
- lloeki 9y agoThe thing is, you: A. can scream money for nerfed hardware with F-keys B. can scream money for nerfed TB with serious hardware C. can't scream money for F-keys with serious hardware D. can't scream money for TB with nerfed hardware This means I'm currently stuck in a non-choice because either of A or B is lacking, as this is C that I want (or possibly B, but without the shitty guidelines, as demonstrated by TFA). D would have been a great way to show confidence in the TB from Apple. So maybe it's about reducing the SKU count, but it seriously feels like it's combined with a manipulative ploy, which is definitely eroding the trust of people that love Macs, and that is what's really infuriating.
- tokenizerrr 9y agoE. Don't buy Apple. You'll spend much less, and won't be supporting practices you don't approve of.
- yoz-y 9y agoThis is not very useful advice, kind of similar to "just use Linux" when people complain about some issue they have with Windows. For many, dropping macOS would be a much larger disruption than having less usable F-keys. That does not mean we can't complain about it.
- tokenizerrr 9y agoThere are plenty of other hardware manufacturers out there. One of the practices you might not wish to support is an OS being tied to a specific hardware vendor. If you don't like the hardware you shouldn't be buying it.
- samsolomon 9y agoI was certain I was going to buy the 2016 Macbook Pro. I had an aging 2011 Macbook Air that badly needed to be replaced. Loss of MagSafe, carrying around a dongle, Touchbar—In the end it just added too much complexity to my life that I didn't need. I decided to purchase an iMac instead. For everyone else I hope Apple produces a decent non-Touchbar model this year.
- gargravarr 9y agoThey won't. Apple's history has never been to back down but to pursue the money spinning features. Power users have begged for a desktop between the iMac and the Mac Pro for years. Apple has totally ignored them.
- gurkendoktor 9y agoIt's a rare counter-example, but Apple released the iPhone SE for those of us who are happily living in the past. I wish they had more "SE" products.
- gargravarr 9y agoThey sold the SE alongside the existing model, just like they sell the non-TB 13" MBP alongside the TB model, and just like the SE, the hardware is lower spec.
- gurkendoktor 9y agoTo me that was the surprising part about the SE: they actually used the same CPU and camera as in the premium model (6s). Other parts like the TouchID sensor and selfie cam are lower spec, but on the whole it doesn't seem like an artificially limited product to me.
- TheCoreh 9y agoApple recently released the iMac Pro, which is exactly that though
- gargravarr 9y agoBeyond infuriating, we buy them as developer machines here. Most of the staff loathe the TB so we bought another batch without them. I was stunned by the compromised specs. Even upping the CPU and RAM couldn't make them exactly equivalent to the base TB model. And only 2, very close together, USB-C ports is just flipping the bird. Plug in the power lead and just try to sneak a non-Apple (i.e. affordable) C->A adapter into the port. Apple's hardware is just a total farce.