15 ms·
MIT severs ties to company promoting fatal brain uploading
- starrychloe2 9y agoProfiting off Darwin Award candidates? Sounds like a Black Mirror episode (several actually).
- makepanic 9y agoFirst time seeing a website checking for private mode: > Hello, > We noticed you're browsing in private or incognito mode. > To continue reading this article, please exit incognito mode or log in. > Why we made this change > Visitors are allowed 3 free articles per month (without a subscription), and private browsing prevents us from counting how many stories you've read. > We hope you understand, and consider subscribing for unlimited online access." In case others don't want to leave private mode: http://archive.is/DjsiK http://archive.is/DjsiK
- Rotten194 9y agoHow does it do that? Do browsers set a flag? That seems like a privacy hole.
- bentruyman 9y agoThere are certain browser APIs disabled in the browser in incognito mode that can be detected. How else would you implement incognito mode?
- Analemma_ 9y agoThat's interesting. Why are the storage APIs disabled, instead of just using ephemeral storage that goes away when the window is cleared?
- lallysingh 9y agoIt's less work to disable them. There's likely already an API access control system in place, for internal-only APIs, testing, etc.
- eridius 9y agoIt also means sites can avoid promising to do things that aren't actually possible, like saving information for access next time.
- brohee 9y agoBy sandboxing, e.g. localStorage fully functional but deleted at the end of the session...
- 2fifty3 9y agoMozilla recently released containerized tabs[0], I imagine the next logic step is building containerized Private Browsing Mode [0]: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/multi-account-containers/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/multi-account...
- Paul-ish 9y agoMy understanding is that things actually went the other way. Private browsing came first, then the same approach was used to create more labels than just "private" and not "private". I think more features may be turned off in private browsing mode though.
- m-p-3 9y agoI use multiple computers daily and not having those synced with my Firefox account is a pain in the ass.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Jacqued 9y agoMy guess is that they feature detect, using disabled stuff (eg localStorage error 22 on safari private mode) to find out if your browser looks like one in private mode.
- makepanic 9y agoPeeking into the source: /** * Detects incognito/private mode in various browsers. * * Adapted from: * https://gist.github.com/cou929/7973956 */
- Something1234 9y agoLink for the lazy. https://gist.github.com/cou929/7973956 https://gist.github.com/cou929/7973956
- andrewmunsell 9y agoOr you can disable it with a query param: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610743/mit-severs-ties-to-company-promoting-fatal-brain-uploading/?disable-incognito-check https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610743/mit-severs-ties-to...
- Anm 9y agoInteresting that this works with any query parameter: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610743/mit-severs-ties-to-company-promoting-fatal-brain-uploading/?d https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610743/mit-severs-ties-to...
- ngngngng 9y agoThey're probably only using query params at that endpoint for referral links. There are a couple high profile subscription news sites that let you in as much as you want as long as your referer header says "facebook.com".
- baobrien 9y agoI was able to see the article in private mode on Firefox 59.0.2 with uBlock Origin (enabled and disabled).
- Raphmedia 9y agoThat's so stupid. There's nothing stopping anyone from browsing 3 articles and then clear the cookies...
- DanBC 9y agoPlease don't use spaces to quote blocks of text. It's completely broken for mobile users, forcing them to use horizontal scroll.
- godzillabrennus 9y agoI use http://outline.com http://outline.com to read and share content from sites like this.
- RickS 9y agoThe detection is JS based after the proper article loads, so you can smash the escape key in a timely way to disable it.
- mavidser 9y agoI tend to disable Javascript for news/blog websites. In maximum cases, I get a popup-free, ad-free experience, and no private browsing warnings too.
- friedButter 9y agoNetflix does this too
- zitterbewegung 9y agoMITs statement seems to position themselves to not be at risk if the startup goes south. They seem to think that with current technology it is unclear if the upload is feasible. Also, it would be interesting for someone to comment on how this embalming process is done? From what I know from cryogenic freezing or preservation is that it is a good idea that it could be "scanned" back in but most likely the information is lost. I would like to understand how they solve this using embalming. MIT seems to say that we don't know that at all. Is this company a part of Ycombinator Winter 2018? https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/nectome#section-funding-rounds https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/nectome#section-fund... says it was funded in January 2018.
- lvs 9y ago> ... if the startup goes south The startup is a snake oil scam. It is by definition "south." It is not "unclear if the upload is feasible." It is simply NOT feasible.
- Eliezer 9y agoThe startup is not claiming to have current uploading technology. The startup is researching (does not claim to have) brain preservation techniques leading to long-term structure preservation in hopes of uploading sometime in the indefinite future. If your personal opinion is that this cannot happen, that does not make other people who have different beliefs and are upfront about their arguments for them "scammers".
- mateosu 9y agoThere's no real evidence that the human brain functions anything like an Information Processor and, in fact, a growing body of evidence that suggests it's not. We still know so little about the brain and comparing a brain to a computer is is at best a flawed metaphor and at worst an outright falsehood. The idea that any sort of human consciousness can be uploaded or stored by a computer is asinine
- 9y ago
- walrus01 9y agoFor those who are unfamiliar with the general concept, there are several organizations that will be happy to take large sums of money from you, for a scientifically sketchy claim at resurrection at some future unknown date. https://www.google.ca/search?q=alcor+cryonics&oq=alcor+cryonics&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.4386j0j7&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.ca/search?q=alcor+cryonics&oq=alcor+cryon...
- microtherion 9y agoAnd if that's not your cup of tea, there are non-scientific organizations that will be happy to take large sums of money from you for a sketchy claim at resurrection at some future unknown date. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vatican http://lmgtfy.com/?q=vatican
- aeorgnoieang 9y agoWhat specific claims does, e.g. Alcor, make that are scientifically sketchy? Just the implication that resurrection might be possible sometime in the future?
- Analemma_ 9y agoResurrection, while not impossible, is sufficiently unlikely that taking people's money while promising it-- even with a disclaimer that it is not guaranteed-- seems exploitative, akin to people promising homeopathic cancer remedies. It is preying on people's fear of death.
- trevyn 9y agoNo cryonics organization promises it.
- Analemma_ 9y agoI used to get in a lot of arguments online about cryonics back in the day (it's very possible that you and I have had this debate under different usernames on that other site for Valley nerd-types); they always went nowhere and I'm not interested in getting back into them. Suffice to say that I'm not convinced by cryonics organizations' "we're not promising anything" disclaimers: I think these are done with a knowing wink and that they use Pascal's mugging-style "what have you got to lose?" arguments to bypass concerns about their feasibility to get your money.
- iamatworknow 9y agoHopefully this work will continue at Viktor Chondria University.
- njloof 9y agoI for one am in favor of death without backups. I’ve met enough of you people; on the whole, you’ve all got to go.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- sametmax 9y agoWell, i'm very afraid of dying but i can't imagine any scenario where immortality would not cause catastrophic harm to humanity, at least at our current level of wisdom.
- glorkk 9y ago> “Fundamentally, the company is based on a proposition that is just false. It is something that just can’t happen,” says Sten Linnarsson of the Karolinska Institute in Sweden. That sounds a lot like the "heavier than air flight is impossible" quote from 1895.
- kolpa 9y agoTo be fair, it's unclear whether Linnarsson was saying that brain uploading would never be possible (which is a step too far), or that this company would never people to revive people who paid today using brain-uploading techniques available within the near future (which is quite reasonable).
- SomeNeuroGuy 9y agoI fundamentally don't understand those comments. Like, I get that these guys might be - maybe even probably are! - snake oil salesmen, but what about brain digitization is actually impossible? There are certainly a fixed number of neurotransmitter types, a fixed number of channels, a fixed structure to a particular operating brain, and so on. Anything that exists can be reverse engineered and, in principle, rebuilt.
- spudlyo 9y agoIt was disturbing to think of the Flatline as a construct, a hardwired ROM cassette replicating a dead man's skills, obsessions, knee-jerk responses. --Neuromancer
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- trgv 9y agoFor those interested in this stuff, or the "we will preserve your body and resurrect you in some date in the future" technology, I recommend a Don Delillo novel from a couple years ago, title is Zero K.
- lithos 9y agoWe Are Bob, series covers it as a big feature, though there are a few larger ones in the series.
- etrautmann 9y agoBrain uploading is a misleading description of what nectome is proposing. We don’t know enough about what needs to be preserved yet to accurately save a snapshot of a brain’s “state”. It’s not theoretically impossible, just much further than this company’s marketing implies.
- fixermark 9y agoAnd given the recent discovery of what some are calling (possibly inaccurately) an entirely new organ in the body resulting from changes in the visualization technologies available (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/31/health/new-organ-interstitium.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/31/health/new-organ-intersti...)... I, for one, wouldn't trust that their preservation solution is sufficient for reconstruction of anything even approximating consciousness without a successful bidirectional demonstration. Far too high a risk that what they'd be able to deliver right now is a very smelly paperweight that used to be someone's brain.
- daodedickinson 9y agoNot to mention this recent finding: http://archive.is/wykD9 http://archive.is/wykD9 I think they wil lose way too many analog details.
- otakucode 9y agoI don't believe we could ever see any kind of system 'approximating consciousness' without a body. Full stop. Dualism is wrong and there is no mind/body split. The full state of the brain, simulated perfectly, would perfectly reproduce the experience of a brain in total sensory deprivation paired with total whole-body paralysis. Even just sensory deprivation alone is enough to cause consciousness to entirely evaporate in moments. Add in whole body paralysis and no, you can never hope to have anything approaching 'consciousness.'
- ahelwer 9y agoIf you have the technology to simulate a brain, it seems pretty trivial to simulate a body, environment, and associated sensory inputs as well.
- fixermark 9y agoSometimes, a headline is just so good you don't even need to read the article.
- Viliam1234 9y agoToo bad this is exactly what online ads incentivize against.
- ilamont 9y agoNever thought I would ask something like this, but here goes: What's Y Combinator's stance on the death requirement? Nectome was at demo day last month and Sam Altman is (or was) on the waiting list. Following the example of electric-vehicle maker Tesla, it is sizing up demand by inviting prospective customers to join a waiting list for a deposit of $10,000, fully refundable if you change your mind. So far, 25 people have done so. One of them is Sam Altman, a 32-year-old investor who is one of the creators of the Y Combinator program. https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610456/a-startup-is-pitching-a-mind-uploading-service-that-is-100-percent-fatal/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/610456/a-startup-is-pitch...
- kolpa 9y ago> Sam Altman, a 32-year-old investor who is one of the creators of the Y Combinator program. Sam Altman co-created Y Combinator when he was 20?
- toyg 9y agoHe most definitely did not found YC but he is indeed 32.
- jamestimmins 9y agoNo, the article is incorrect. He wasn't a creator; he was in an early batch (the first I believe), and then became president some time after his company was acquired.
- Veedrac 9y agoFirst and foremost cryogenics has a PR problem. It is somehow more popular to say that you're glad people are dying by the billions than to align yourself with the people trying to make an earnest effort to stop it (now imagine how fast I would be banned for the same position around genocide). I'm not sure whether this will just further the kneejerk anti-cryogenics sentiment or if it will seem to more normalise normal post-death cryogenics, but it does seem a rather dangerous play. I don't want cryogenics to find itself tangled up in crazy legal issues. At an object level I'm not all that concerned with the ethics of people taking this bet, given the science is pretty sound. It does not make sense to allow people to take medical treatment that have a significant chance of serious harm for the chance of a few years longer health if it pans out, but then ban a bet as safe as cryogenics.
- walrus01 9y agoIf hundreds of millions of people were to do this, what economic, cultural or religious incentive do people have 500 years from now to resurrect anyone? Maybe people who were famous geniuses, sure, but with my view of human nature I get the impression that unless the resurrection process is extremely low cost and easy, nobody will go to the effort to bring back the consciousness of huge numbers of random people. This could change, sure, such as if a major world religion made a profound shift to bringing back your ancestors for ideological reasons. The chance of that happening is slim.
- Veedrac 9y agoFor the same reason that wealthy countries have public health services, basically. You are right that there are economic issues at play, but there are good arguments that the intrinsic cost of revival should be pretty low, and the process of getting there is just waiting however many thousands of years of technical development it takes.
- GCU-Empiricist 9y agoYou might enjoy reading age of Em
- zapdrive 9y agoOr you can die with a private key of a Bitcoin address containing a few bitcoins memorized. And a tattoo or something that will says you'll give half to whoever revives you. Hopefully Bitcoin will be here for a long time.
- Something1234 9y agoI highly doubt the longevity of bitcoin enough to do that. Anyways what are the odds that your brain wouldn't be scrambled from the years of being frozen or you'll remember your key.
- aetherson 9y agoIf there is technology to reinstantiate your brain with that memory intact, there is technology to pull just that memory out of your brain without bothering to reinstantiate you.
- anonytrary 9y ago> Most neuroscientists think the ability to recapture memories from brain tissue and re-create a consciousness inside a computer is at best decades away... At best, decades away? That's some crazy hubris. It's not even imaginable how far away it is. I find it absurd that humans think they can achieve arguably the highest level of godliness in mere decades. This is almost as crazy as saying teleportation is less than a hundred years away. We can't make predictions about things we don't understand. Edit: I'm getting some flak for not including the rest of the quote, but I would argue that it doesn't matter. The rest of the quote was "and probably not possible at all". Their conclusion makes no sense. How can something either be impossible or potentially very possible? This statement shows how little academia actually knows about neuroscience. And no, this is not comparable to opinions about the moon landing in the 50's. By the 1950s we already had a completely sufficient theoretical framework for achieving space flight. The same cannot be said about consciousness upload as of today.
- apsec112 9y ago" To place a man in a multi-stage rocket and project him into the controlling gravitational field of the moon where the passengers can make scientific observations, perhaps land alive, and then return to earth—all that constitutes a wild dream worthy of Jules Verne. I am bold enough to say that such a man-made voyage will never occur regardless of all future advances." - Lee De Forest, inventor of the vacuum tube, 1957 https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Incorrect_predictions https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Incorrect_predictions
- anonytrary 9y agoThis is not a very good comparison at all. In the 1950s, we already had a complete theoretical foundation for space travel. Newton's equations, developed hundreds of years earlier, gave us that foundation. Where is the theoretical foundation for consciousness upload? If you had pulled a quote denouncing space travel from the late 1600s, it would be a better comparison. It should be noted that it took hundreds of years before Newton's theory resulted in extraterrestrial travel.
- dickfickling 9y ago
- mrfusion 9y agoI’ve never gotten a good answer as to how an electron microscope can image the synaptic weights. If you look at the pictures it can barely capture the synapses.
- return0 9y agoelectron microscopy has the resolution to discriminate individual spines and synapses, figuring out the weight of the synapse though is not straightforward. At least for excitatory synapses however, there is ample evidence that the size of the spine correlates with the maturity and strength of the synapse. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20646057 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20646057
- mrfusion 9y agoI didn’t know that. That’s a good start. We still have, what 20 different neurotransmitters that can be weighted differently at each synapse?
- kanzure 9y agoYou can label receptors with aptamers and other technology, and then sequence the aptamer labels (or whatever). Many in situ sequencing techniques can be applied here. Note, however, that this requires more steps than simply scanning with electron microscope multi-array.
- mrfusion 9y agoInteresting. Maybe also doing some kind of rnaseq synapse by synapse could tell you what levels of neurotransmitters and receptors it’s maintaining. I’m not sure if that small of a scale would ever be possible.
- kanzure 9y agoYeah, it would certainly help to use a method like expansion microscopy, sort of like if Nectome were to subcontract some work to a certain MIT lab that invented the techni--- oh wait..
- karmicthreat 9y agoOptimalverse here we come.
- mancerayder 9y agoThis was published April 3, and not the 1st? It reads almost like an Onion article. 100% fatal technology?
- zenmollusc 9y agoThat feel when your brain upload data gets leaked and 50,000 instances of you are enslaved and put to work in a compute-farm generating spam emails under threat of having the sensation of pain applied directly to your simulated nervous system. The future is bright.