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Why there are so many online mattress-in-a-box companies
- jaggederest 9y agoTL;DR for the article: Huge margins and outsourced manufacturing and logistics.
- truculation 9y agoMattress-packing via machine pix: https://twitter.com/machinepix/status/965691925712875521 https://twitter.com/machinepix/status/965691925712875521 Instead of merely airing the bed each morning I run a dehumidifer. Hopefully this will reduce mould & mites. Now HN can tell me why my personal mattress hack is a bad idea.
- analog31 9y agoAt last I have an excuse for not making the bed in the morning. ;-) When my kids were tots and we took them to day care, the day care center had a collection of little beds for naps, which were some kind of durable fabric mesh stretched over a frame. I've often wondered how that would work as a general purpose mattress for adults, with little chance of festering over time.
- mc32 9y agoYou mean something like army cots[1]? [1]http://armynavysuperstores.com/cots.htm http://armynavysuperstores.com/cots.htm
- goldenkey 9y agoAs far as I know, any kind of hammock or suspension bed will ultimately suffer from uneven pressure points. Unless the frame is filled in, in the middle, which would make it a normal mattress, then your weight is going to be pushing back on you mostly laterally via the perimeter where the attachment of the mesh happens. Sleeping surfaces are meant to support the body from the bottom in an even fashion in order to minimize pressure points. This is why memory foam is so effective - instead of having 1024 springs, add more add more!!! - we just get a porous composite material with 1000000 tiny nooks which basically act as springs. Latex on the other hand, if not in foam form, can be solid, and gains its "spring" properties just from its tensile chemistry alone. No nooks needed. But latex foam is sold..which is a marriage of the two ideas. In any case, hammocks aren't gonna hurt you from sleeping on em occasionally, especially since the pressure points will mostly be your back as hammocks are often hung loosely, so that the attachment points can be much much higher than your actual body, therefore moving most of the force to a vertical pressure, instead of that lateral pressure we talked about.
- closeparen 9y agoThis is why it's hilarious that they offer return policies. You really think you're going to coax your mattress back into the box?
- shanghaiaway 9y agoAn evolved form of drop shipping.
- analog31 9y agoI don't know if this has any impact, but thinking about it, a mattress is a possession that can't be easily transported in a car, or even, by someone who doesn't have a car. I imagine that as people become more mobile and choose to have fewer possessions, it might be easier to simply abandon their mattress and have a new one shipped to their new location.
- ropeadopepope 9y agoI used to buy foam Ikea mattresses specifically because they compress and roll up well. That allowed me to move from place to place with a normal car.
- meesterdude 9y agoI have such a bed. Getting it home was easy. But how do you actually compress it and roll it again? It's kinda become huge. What do you do?
- jacquesm 9y agoVacuum. Thick plastic wrap and then hook up a vacuum pump to the interior and watch the atmosphere do the heavy work for you. Then you can roll up the package.
- meesterdude 9y agoingenious! Here I was looking at steamroller rentals.
- jacquesm 9y agoIf you look at the video linked elsewhere you'll see they use a giant press to compress the mattress between two sheets of foil and then they heat seal the ends. After releasing the press it all stays nicely flat because of the same reason: there is no air in the mattress and no way for air to get into the mattress. I figure they do it that way because it is much faster than just letting the vacuum do the work which for a production facility is a must. But when you have a small budget and more time then using the vacuum directly is the best way to go. There is an interesting branch of manufacturing related to this trick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_forming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_forming
- ropeadopepope 9y agoReminds me of something called "Made for Outlet." Popular brands license their logos to third parties who make low quality goods. It has the label and the store has the name, but it's cheap junk worth a fraction of the price they're selling it for.
- deelowe 9y agoWith globalization things are getting really weird in the retail space. For example, snap-on (a super premium tool maker) used to make wrenches for Lowes. They were nearly identical: http://www.snapon-bluepoint.com.sg/ http://www.snapon-bluepoint.com.sg/ Just a few days ago, AVE did a few videos showing evidence that there may be a single supplier for some new airguns that are on the market. Thing is, these air guns range in price from less than $100 (harbor freight) to well over $500 (premium brand). He tested a Husky brand that was much more expensive than the HF one and found it to likely be worse than the cheap one. He had a good theory in the video that no one can beat manufacturing overseas now days for quality or price. So everyone just outsources it and is hoping no one notices.
- evjim 9y agoI was just checking out the harbor freight air nailers. The main concern I had was for the triggers, the plastic seemed really thin and poorly connected. I'll have to check out this video
- deelowe 9y agoThis is just for this specific impact wrench. HF quality can vary a lot, but where as it used to be just crap and worse crap, there are a few very specific instances now where they actually have some gems. This impact wrench appears to be one minus some very slight concerns.
- joshvm 9y agoSomewhat ironic that the article comments about MemoryFoamTalk not disclosing comissions from Nectar and then provides an (undisclosed) affiliate link. I have a Leesa as it was the only mattress (at the time) which fit my bed properly. The fact that all these companies can offer 100-365 day trials does hint at how stupidly large the margins are.
- DennisP 9y agoHow do you like your Leesa?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- sayhello 9y agoI have a Leesa and liked it so much that I bought 2 more for the rest of my beds. It feels great for me, I like a firmer mattress, but it’s not too firm. Here are the highlights: 1. Half the price of the equivalent at Sleep Country 2. Didn’t have to deal with mattress sales people. Margins are so high there is usually a negotiation. Given the varying types of materials, I don’t really know how to price and why I should bother knowing the ins and outs of mattresses. I don’t like the upsells. Makes it feel like going to a car dealership. 3. Shipped and got delivered fairly fast. Cons: 1. Buying it sight unseen can be unnerving, especially for a $1,000 purchase. I guess that’s why they have the generous return policy. 2. Differentiation. I don’t know how Casper is different from Leesa. I went on a review site and trusted it, I guess, but even then, they seemed to be made the same way more or less.
- iambateman 9y agoWe bought a Tuft and Needle mattress three years ago, and it's been fantastic. A few other friends have bought mattresses online and all been very happy. If it's all a marketing ploy, as the article implies, then there's a lot of happy people benefiting. ;)
- hkmurakami 9y agoIf it's a marketing ploy, then traditional brick and mortar mattress companies were also marketing ploys (which they may have been!!). In either case I agree, consumers are pretty happy now.
- so33 9y agoI have always viewed traditional mattress companies as very sketchy. I can't find a more authoritative source than Vox that corroborates my view, but here it is: https://www.vox.com/2015/3/5/8151607/mattress-buying-tips-savings https://www.vox.com/2015/3/5/8151607/mattress-buying-tips-sa... Notably, mattress stores participate in the classic tactic of price inflation, as well as taking the same model of mattress and giving it a different name, making it much more difficult to comparison shop: >For example, the popular Simmons Beautyrest line has different brand names at different stores. The "Beautyrest Recharge Allie" at Macy's is called the "Beautyrest Recharge Devonwood Luxury" at Sears, the "Recharge Signature Select Hartfield" at Mattress Firm, and the "Beautyrest Recharge Lyric Luxury" at US-Mattress.com. If customers don't realize these are names for the same mattress, it's harder for them to bargain effectively. Then again, maybe these online mattress companies are doing the same thing too, just one step removed. At least there's no pushy sales staff when I order a bed in a box.
- dopeboy 9y agoSame. Easily the best mattress I've had. Had to give it up when I moved into a smaller place.
- shimon 9y agoOf course it's a marketing ploy! Mattresses are a great example of an area where the marketing ploys are really an inescapable part of the perception of value. If you think you're buying a great, innovative mattress design, you'll probably continue to believe that unless it's quite bad. They've just switched us from feeling like we can pick the right mattress through trying a dozen in a store to reading online reviews. Both are biased, but everyone needs some way to feel confident about a big purchase.
- gregsadetsky 9y agoIn addition to the article's points, it seems to me that the experience of dealing with aggressive/manipulative salespeople in a "classic" retail mattress store cannot be compared to the feeling that I get from most online stores. Questions on my budget, spending time to show me the mattresses (and then making me feel guilty that they spent all of this time on me), etc. Offering me a "last minute" deal once they saw that I was leaving. It was dreadful. In this regard, IKEA can be a good compromise on price, selection, and their employees' relaxed, non-pushy demeanour. You get to try the mattresses and no one (except other customers) will watch over you. --- Contradicting all of my points above, I do want to say that investing in a Tempur-Pedic was a life changing decision. I definitely spend a more "rewarding" time sleeping in it. (((obviously, but just in case someone is wondering, I'm not astroturfing for IKEA or Tempur. Just a satisfied customer...)))
- katzgrau 9y agoI second that. I recently bought a king size tempur, upgrading from my queen size (which got moved to my spare room). It's not just comfortable - it's next level. I slept on a Casper at an airbnb for a full month this past summer - it's not bad but it isn't tempurpedic. Ps, check my past comments - I am not a shill, just someone who digs tempurpedic.
- dpark 9y agoDitto. My tempurpedic cost a fairly ridiculous amount. I would pay it again in a heartbeat if my mattress caught on fire. The best mattress I’ve ever slept on by a very large margin.
- rconti 9y agoThese recommendations seem wholly legitimate. Funny thing is, though, the only person I know well who owned one (my brother-in-law) liked it but said it was simply too damn hot, which I've since heard others discuss as well. They had to return theirs, just couldn't live with it. I don't think of a normal mattress as providing ventilation, but I guess it does, at least somewhat -- less thermal mass, at least.
- kodablah 9y agoAnswer to title is the same answer to the question, "Why there are so many mattress stores"... profit margin.
- SlowRobotAhead 9y agoRight. And once someone figured out that you can roll and vacuum seal a mattress and ship UPS - lots of online stores. Writing this while laying on an Avacado latex mattress.... HATED every second of mattress store nonsense... oh you’re having a sale just today!? My goodness how lucky! :/
- wonder_bread 9y agoSeems like part of what this article is discussing is the emerging 'Shopify effect'. The barriers to entry for starting an online brand-based business have plummetted to the point where even people with little means financially and no means technically can still set up a business for a fraction of what it cost in the 20th century. I wouldn't be surprised if we're in the middle of a Cambrian explosion-esque period for consumer-based brands.
- jjeaff 9y agoAnd not just US based brands trying to all sell the same products. I have a "joyroom design" phone charging case, shamo's phone case, yivvin wireless keyboard, powerextra camera flash, godox battery charger, auxia ring light, and all other manner of cheap Chinese whitelabel brands that didn't even take the time to consult an English speaker before coming up with a name. And all of these products have at least 20 to 30 or more other listings of the exact same product with some other made up "brand name" on it.
- labster 9y agoAnd yet, for living species, it looks a lot more like the K-T boundary extinction event. At least we created a lot of shareholder value.
- dx034 9y agoMany of those shops won't make much profit. Shipping companies are probably the only ones profiting (if not shipped via national mail services). Most of the value will flow to the customer as prices are now much lower.
- rhizome 9y agoBrands, sure, but it's a side effect of nobody actually making anything anymore. The manufacturer or distributor, of which there are certainly many fewer than mattress brands, could steal huge hunks of the entire market just by deciding to do so. I'm not sure all of these are positive developments. I have to wonder if the low barrier to entry takes Hotelling's Law and explodes it into high gear. Like, how many actually-different mattress design patterns and materials are there anyway?
- ProfessorLayton 9y agoCheap memory foam toppers have effectively made the quality of the mattress irrelevant to me. I've been sleeping great on a compressed Ikea mattress with a foam topper. In fact the entire bed setup was boxed up and taken to my home in a car. I've spent the night at really nice guest rooms/hotels, and I don't prefer them over my setup. I would much rather re-buy my setup again every time I move, than spend a ton of money on a "proper" mattress and deal with moving it/dealing with movers — for now, at least.
- starpilot 9y agoI did something similar in college. Bought an airbed and memory foam topper both from Amazon, transported them inside my Honda when I had to move out of state for internships. It was damn comfortable. Now I have a Tuft & Needle.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- icantdrive55 9y agoYea--the cheap foam toppers saved me so much money/aggravation. My dad once bought a $5000 mattress. He literally died in it complaining about the purchase. He spent his adult life priding himself on not being a fool with his money. He did a good job doing the opposite of what companies wanted, but he slipped up on the mattress. (I probally shouldn't have mentioned my dad's death. We had a twisted relationship. He was a good guy deep down, but the alcohol affected his personality, and not in a good way.) If I was forced to open a retail brick and mortar store; it would be a toss up between mattresses, couches, or a thrift store.
- mrep 9y agoRetail mattress shopping is insane. I went to nordstrom/macys to look at mattresses and the foam ones were retailing for like 3,000$ dollars. Checked out Amazon and found some for 1/10th the price and decided it was easily worth the gamble. 2 years later and I have no complaints with my 300$ Amazon foam mattress.
- 47 9y ago"Since Casper launched its “mattress in a box” concept in 2014, digital-savvy entrepreneurs have been launching new mattress brands online seemingly every week." Casper was not the first mattress in a box online company. But Casper definitely is the first company to get the marketing right.
- DiabloD3 9y agoI think it would be fair to say they Apple'd it. Given how they sued people who gave bad reviews to their products, I think that is more than enough reason to never buy from them, especially sight unseen.
- Fins 9y agoRight. I got a boxed mattress back in 2007 or 2008, from a place imaginatively called bedinabox or somesuch. It was a fraction of Casper price, too.
- tylergetsay 9y agoSo whats the best one? Or are they all the same? Whenever I see high margins I immediately start looking for how to buy directly from the source
- batbomb 9y agoI bought a Tuft and Needle after this post in 2013: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6900625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6900625 I’m pretty sure that at the time, Tuft and Needle was the main name in the game, and I definitely hadn’t heard of Casper at that point, so there seems to be a bit of revisionist history attributing the rise of these mattresses to Casper? I don’t know. I’m still happy with my T&N.
- Afforess 9y agoRevisionist is putting it lightly. Casper sued the largest online mattress review site after it refused to favor its brands, and forced it to sell itself. The entire saga has more twists than a G.R.R. Martin novel. https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-blogg...
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- bnycum 9y agoWe are probably not far from needing a new mattress ourselves and I’ve been looking at all these companies. Minus Purple, most of them seem fairly similar within a degrees of each other. Has anyone who wasn’t a fan of memory foam mattresses been swayed by any of these companies? We live in the south and haven’t liked the few we’ve tried for them sleeping hot and general feel. Kind of wish I could try before I buy.
- hanklazard 9y agoI bought a Casper about a year ago after having a standard spring mattress for 10 years prior. I’ve found it very comfortable from day one. I also tend to sleep hot and so was concerned about reports of memory foaming feeling warmer ... hasn’t been an issue for me. I’ve had guests on it as well and people my age and size (late 30’s, average build) seem to find it comfortable. To be clear: I’m sure I could find a nicer mattress, but this was easy and represents a good value.
- gehwartzen 9y agoI highly recommend looking into Spindle Mattress. It's all latex and wool/cotton and sleeps a lot cooler than memory foam. You sort of put it together yourself (i.e. Put three thick sections of latex in a zippered cover) but this also also allows for a bit of adjustment (reorganize the layers which come in various finesses). The whole thing weighs a ton and ships in three separate boxes.
- Gustomaximus 9y agoOne of the great things about online mattresses is having reviews. The traditional store all had unique names/codes for their mattresses so you can't compare price or get any reasonable volume of reviews for a mattress. I love how the internet levels the playing field on things like this.
- on_and_off 9y agoHem-hem. https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-blogg... IMO it looks like the mattress business is 99% marketing. It is a rectangle of foams, I would love it if companies stopped pretending that they spent thousand of man hours improving it while they all come from the same factory (I am not even exaggerating much here :/ ). I moved to the US recently and was shocked by how big the mattress business is here and how costly these are.
- smt88 9y agoMost online mattress reviews are part of affiliate programs and aren't trustworthy. It's also impossible to review something so personal. For example, someone else in these comments loves their floor futon, but I loathe mine.
- astura 9y ago"Reviews" are useless, in fact, they are worse than useless, they are just another form of spam. Those reviewers and bloggers make their living on commission, thus the incentives are not aligned. You can find positive reviews of pyramid schemes and malware. Mattresses are in a way kinda interchangeable. Sure there's different quality and a well worn mattress will be different from a new one, but, in general, you probably aren't going to sleep differently on a different brand of a similar quality mattress. About 6 years ago I read that people who bought their mattress from the internet we're just as satisfied with their purchase as people who tried them out in the store beforehand. Plus most people's opinions suck anyway.
- Waterluvian 9y agoSo stupid question. Are mattresses in a box actually viable? What changed in recent years that make it work? I assumed you'd just end up with a mattress with messed up springs.
- ThrustVectoring 9y agoThe mattresses are memory foam and/or latex and don't have springs in them.
- SlowRobotAhead 9y agoMy latex does have springs (avacado) and was still vacuum sealed. If your distribution model has always been freight no need to try anything else - then someone came along and did something else.
- pnutjam 9y agoIkea sells rolled vacuum packed spring mattresses. I just bought two for my daughters
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- source99 9y agoAnd why are there so many mattress commercials on radio?
- shimon 9y agoIt's a rare purchase with high profit margins and limited differentiation between brands. In other words, whatever store/vendor you go to first has a great shot at getting your business, and you'll totally forget about them by the time you next need a mattress years later. Same reason you hear so many car dealership and insurance ads.
- sgustard 9y agoGreat question, and this article echoes the answer below: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/03/why_are_there_so_many_mattress_ads_on_the_radio_.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20... But then: why not as many furniture ads?
- ironjunkie 9y agoAs far as I'm concerned, that whole market still needs some newcomers (also called "disruption"). this whole mattress in a box segment is essentially 70% marketing and 30% RD//Production//Shipping. Those companies price around 1000$ for a mattress, but I highly doubt the production (and shipping) is anything more than 150$. I'm happy there is an alternative to the older shaddy company that cornered that market (sleeptrain and all of those), but it's still too much marketing, too little value for a fairly simple product! (I have a Leesa and it's a mattress... It's ok).
- sumedh 9y agoI was in the market for a mattress, went to a big store which exclusively sells mattress, tried a 4000 AUD mattress and 1000 AUD mattress, they felt the same. Finally went to Ikea and tried a 200 AUD mattress, that felt good too so got that. All the mattress were medium firm and I could not figure out any difference with all three of them with the 20 second demo.
- nextos 9y agoI own a Hästens bed, which is supposedly among the best box springs (with a horsehair topper) you can buy. I also own a latex mattress from IKEA, made by a really famous latex manufacturer, which has been discontinued to sell inferior options. These are good, but in my case they couldn't beat a setup that is an order of magnitude cheaper, simpler and better. A simple custom-made japanese shikibuton, filled with felted wool panels and a buckwheat pillow. I put this on a modular set of bed slates to avoid insects, get better airing and avoid cold floors. I treated a few years of my life as an experiment to improve my sleep. I bought a Hästens and that latex IKEA mattress. I used them for 3 years, switching back and forth every 6 months. Then I made this custom shikibuton, and after a few months I never looked back. There is some literature which explains how we evolved sleeping in relatively firm setups. Big, expensive and mushy mattresses tend to be a bit too soft and you end up developing neck aches as I did. A better option is just some slightly flexible wood base, or a tatami, and some thin cushion. In fact, another less unconventional setup I like is a horsehair topper, like one of those from Hästens, on top of some wooden base. My shikibuton is really cheap. It's washable! I can open my futon, put felted wool panels in the washing machine and it's dry in a day. It's very comfortable. It's ended up my perennial neck issues. It's convenient, I can transport the whole system in my tiny car. A simpler, non-washable alternative is to have a big cover filled up with buckwheat hulls. Every 6 months, compost hulls, buy new ones, and wash cover. Every month, empty hulls into a bag and wash cover. I don't understand why this alternative is not more popular in the West.
- saudioger 9y ago>I don't understand why this alternative is not more popular in the West. > Every 6 months, compost hulls, buy new ones, and wash cover. Every month, empty hulls into a bad and wash cover. Alternatively: Have a mattress for 10 years, do nothing.
- jjeaff 9y agoMy latex foam mattress has a 25 year full warranty. If it sags or cimpresses more than 1 inch, I can have it replaced. 25 year warranties aren't out if the ordinary now.
- 9y ago
- jijji 9y agoyou can find mattresses all day long for $50-$75 on craigslist, i dont know what these people are talking about paying $1,000 for a mattress.
- jjeaff 9y agoBecause bedbugs.
- bsg75 9y agohttps://www.livescience.com/33097-does-your-mattress-really-gain-weight-over-time-.html https://www.livescience.com/33097-does-your-mattress-really-... "According to materials published by Ohio State University, a typical used mattress may have 100,000 to 10 million mites inside. Ten percent of the weight of a two-year-old pillow can be composed of dead mites and their droppings. Mites prefer warm, moist surroundings such as the inside of a mattress when someone is on it. One of their favorite foods is dead skin, and people shed about one fifth of an ounce of the stuff every week, some of which surely ends up flaking into your mattress."
- itakedrugs 9y agoProbably because foam mattresses cost next to nothing to make... (and also because foam mattresses are better then spring mattresses)
- wemdyjreichert 9y agoOnline matress-in-a-box = business e-commerce equivalent of a lemonade stand.
- nfoz 9y agoI thought I loved the idea of a solid-chunk-of-memory-foam mattress. But now I've identified that it's causing me serious back/neck problems; maybe it just doesn't suit my body-type or something. I'm looking to replace it with a decent firm spring mattress. But it sure was easier to shop for mattress-in-a-box.
- wheels 9y agoAs an American that moved to Europe before I was old enough to ever buy an expensive mattress, what Americans spend on mattresses is always incredibly baffling. New, king sized (1.8 x 2.0 m), mattresses go for €200-1500 (about $250-1800) in Germany, with prices gravitating towards the lower end of the spectrum. Americans use much springier mattresses (box springs are unheard of here, and foam mattresses are standard), but I'm incredibly skeptical that quality of sleep is systemically worse. The whole thing has the feeling of a ginormous scam / rent-seeking.
- dboreham 9y agoIf this is interesting look at how often Americans think they have to change the oil in their vehicles. Even if said oil is synthetic.
- st26 9y ago"think"? The manufacturer specifies the interval, and you best follow it if you'd like your warranty honored.
- seattle_spring 9y agoMost people don't follow the manufacturer's recommendation, they follow the "Jiffy Lube" recommendation which is every 3000 miles. 3000 miles is a ridiculous interval.
- astura 9y agoMy manufacturer specifies 1 year or 10,000 miles. However, growing up I was told that you shouldn't go more than 3 months or 3,000 miles between oil changes.
- dmh2000 9y agowell back in the day, say before 1990, many cars needed that because the engines were so bad. a combination of plain old poor quality and immature technology for reducing emissions . So it became a meme.
- kbos87 9y agoBuying a mattress sight unseen is the tail wagging the dog. It’s convenient for ecommerce retailers, so they’ve lulled us all into a collective insanity that a one size fits all approach where you have a bed that you’ve never touched delivered to your house is somehow a good idea. The novelty of beds in a box will eventually wear off for most people.
- jameswyse 9y agoI was looking at an Ecosa Sleep ad on facebook a few months ago and considered purchasing one of their mattresses, until I read some of their comments. They claim their mattresses are better because of reduced EMF radiation (compared to traditional mattresses with springs) and when i called them out on their pseudo-science bs I got a nasty reply telling me I was wrong and to do some research!
- lobster_johnson 9y agoI bought my foam mattress from Dixie [1]. It's the Dream Bed Deluxe model, which was about $550, which seems right for a foam mattress (it's still probably 2x markup, but less than what Casper etc. are charging), with free delivery in NYC. Unlike most brands, Dixie makes their own mattresses, and they're made in the US. I love the mattress. [1] https://dixiefoam.com/collections https://dixiefoam.com/collections
- calvinbhai 9y agoSurprising that an article about mattress in a box companies can be written without mentioning T&N. Tuft & Needle probably was the first one to come out with this concept, and probably is still the best priced one. I have two T&N queen mattresses for more than 4 yrs. Been very happy with these in terms of comfort and durability. Never going back to any of the 4S mattresses. No reason for me to try other mattress in a box brands, because they are way more expensive and dont seem to be any more comfortable than T&N. Best thing about mattress in a box, is that if I have to move to an another place, I sell my current mattress and get a new one where I move. One less thing to carry while moving!
- kitsunesoba 9y agoIndeed. I bought a T&N cal king back in 2015 as my first brand new mattress and it’s been great. The firmness took a night or two to get used to but no complaints at all since.
- afterburner 9y agoLooks like the same price as two or three others I've seen.
- curun1r 9y ago> Tuft & Needle probably was the first one to come out with this concept Nope. That was Nest. Or, at least, Nest came out with it a year before T&N. But they also failed to get a mention in the article.
- calvinbhai 9y agoGood to know. Surprised that I never heard of nest before. Their mattresses look like conventional ones. Would love to know how it compares with T&N, since nest has a few that are priced better ran T&N.
- Fins 9y agoHmm, pretty sure I had a mattress delivered in a box back in 2007-8 and it was neither of those. Was a perfectly fine mattress, too.
- alister 9y agoThe journalist spoke to all these founders and to marketing people, but didn't ask a fairly obvious question: What makes the mattress market so much weirder than for other products? Let's compare mattresses to big-screen TVs, which are also $1000+, infrequently purchased, bulky items: - The article says, "If consumers recognize a brand, it creates a situation where mattress stores are slashing prices to compete with each other." But how is that different for Samsung or LG TVs? - "The number of mattress manufacturers is close to 500," meaning in the US I presume. Why are there only 19 TV manufacturers that market in the U.S., and probably not many more in the whole world? - Why do mattress manufacturers obfuscate the model numbers so that "every one of the stores gets a slightly different mattress" making it impossible for consumers to compare? TVs aren't like that. LG's current lineup seems to be 11 different models for 65-inch TVs and 3 models for 60-inch TVs. It's perfectly easy to compare LG's prices online vs Best Buy vs other stores. So why are the mattress and TV markets so different? To take a stab at answering my own question, I think it's because mattresses are still mostly made locally in the US since they can't be shipped great distances (like from China), so they don't benefit from huge economies of scale and cheap labor. And many of those 500 manufacturers probably serve a niche geographical area, so they actually have less competition than TVs manufacturers. Hence they can get away with 300% markup whereas TVs manufacturers operate on tiny margins. Therefore TVs need to compete on features and price, but mattress manufacturers have traditionally used high-pressure tactics and obfuscation to make sales. Anyone have a better explanation?
- verelo 9y agoI’m pretty sure the answer is simple: TVs are hard to make, mattresses are very simple. Foam latex, it’s pretty much the simplest product you can fit in a box, and damage is probably not a concern as the product itself is what we use to protect most other products!
- alister 9y agoSure, TVs are much harder to make than mattresses. I agree completely. But that doesn't explain why mattresses are so expensive and why we have 500 mattress manufacturers and obfuscated models and prices. In fact, your line of reasoning would lead to the opposite conclusion: Mattresses should be cheap, a commodity product dominated by 2 or 3 manufacturers who eke out a few percent margin, selling at a standard price. But that's not what we see.
- abakker 9y agoMaybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed that the quality and convenience were secondary to the big factor for me: a cheap, disposable mattress that is NOT a 10 year investment is nicer for people who rent/move. If I have to donate/throw away my mattress in 2 years because I am moving across the country, into a new room that doesn't have the space, or just because I've decided I don't like it, I now can. The inflection is taking something that used to be branded as a long term investment, and making it into something that doesn't have to be. Consumers seem to be reacting well to this change since there are many benefits. Everything else seems to be standard piling into a new market when there is obvious demand.
- dgreensp 9y agoRemember how the movies Armageddon and Deep Impact both came out in the same year? (Apparently it was 1998.) It was so weird to have a choice of two bad asteroid movies, which wasn’t exactly a common trope at the time. I got a similar feeling when a company advertised in my Facebook feed that it had “reinvented belts,” and then a different company advertised more or less the same thing a few weeks later! Same with pills designed to boost your brain power. One week you are being pitched by brand X, the next by brand Y, and each one gives the impression that someone passionate about belts, or neuroscience, or whatever, poured their blood, sweat, and tears into this revolutionary new product. Edit: I actually bought a “reinvented” belt, and I love it. I wonder if modern marketing, i.e. Facebook, makes it possible to “reinvent” mundane objects and make a buck, maybe the way it used to be before products became more commoditized and distributed by big corporations.
- casefields 9y agoThat's called a Twin Film in show business and had been happening for a long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_films https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_films
- antisthenes 9y agoThey're A/B testing the audience!
- mavhc 9y agoI assume for cgi based films it's partly due to the technology available that year. Got a link for the belt?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- woodpanel 9y agoOn a side note: Since their marketing is superb, it doesn't surprise me that even the article takes Casper's claim at face value - but it wasn't Casper who invented this business-model in 2014. I don't know for other countries, but German startup Bett1 was started in 2004. It became famous in Germany for uncovering the "mattress mafia", a cartell formed by producers and retailers that ensured their ridiculous high earnings stayed in place, eventually leading to criminal investigations by the authorities.
- dalbasal 9y agoThe margins in this industry and its structure are almost an economic paradox. The dynamic is basically (1) markups are very high (2) manufacturing is a solved problem and (3) there is lots of competition. This should resolve to a very competitive market with costs trending to marginal manufacturing cost. Instead, you have high prices for consumers and competition for the tremendous sales margins driving a marketing bidding war. IE consumers pay 400%. 100% is used to make mattresses. 300% is used to market mattresses. IMO, this is something like the wine industry. People want a premium product, but a premium product doesn't exist. So, the market spoofs it with marketing.
- s_kilk 9y agoIt's almost as if the hegemonic form of Econ theory is mostly bullshit that doesn't correspond to reality.
- dalbasal 9y agoNot in this case, though hegemonic is a big word here. You can still buy a mattress for $200 if you want. Micro-102 has all sorts of funky examples where things behave weird. This mattress situation is only possible because people want to buy a premium product "irrationally." This isn't housing. Mattresses and wine are pretty straightforward examples because "marketing" is straightforward, advertising and sales. It seems obviously wasteful when $400 of your purchase price was spent on FB ads, $400 on sales and only £200 on manufacturing. In the garment trade (a much bigger industry), there's still that insane manufacturing/price ratio. It's just that "marketing" is more complicated, involving premium retail experiences and difficult stock management. In both cases, you could hypothesise a different structure where stuff gets produced and shipped to consumers at a fraction of current prices. But... this particular thing can't really happen in markets where people want/need stuff and can't afford it. Cheap/cost-price alcohol (also wine) is also available, and popular. This can only really exist when people don't mind paying more.
- skibble 9y agoSlightly off-topic, but if you genuinely think that there's no such thing as high-end wine, I feel a little sorry for you. Surely you can tell the difference between the Budweiser/Calsberg-type beer and beer from an independent brewery? If so, then surely you can imagine the same might be true of wine? I get that the fact that some bottles cost thousands may offend some people's sensibilities, but this hardly covers the wine mainstream and is usually down to intangibles that go beyond the wine itself, just like a piece of art. It's certainly the case, of course, that while there's a big gap between a $10 and a $50 bottle of wine, naturally the gains for price points above that get incremental pretty quickly in much the same manner as TVs — is a TV that costs $9,000 over four times as good as a $2,000 model? Wine experts often stumble on double-blind tests, sure, but then again, so do audiophiles trying to differentiate lossy and lossless audio.
- chrismartin 9y agoSurprised that nobody has mentioned Zinus, which sells similar stuff but for (relatively) dirt cheap via Amazon, Walmart, etc. A year ago, I paid under $200 for a full size foam mattress, very comfortable for my partner and I.
- coldcode 9y agoI have two now, best mattress I've ever owned, and several coworkers have them now too. Yet I am sure they are all made in the same factory as the rest in China. Zinus has expanded into related products like frames as well so I am sure its mostly marketing over manufacturing in China. Yet I've know people who spent $4000 on a Tempur-Pedic and didn't like it much. I'd rather spend $200 and not like it than $4000. At least with things sold on Amazon you can read 1000's of reviews which are unlikely to be all fake which at least gives you an idea of what people think, unlike buying a mattress in a store where the only opinion you get is the salesperson's.
- discussedbefore 9y agoZinus sub-discussion from some time ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15489344 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15489344
- zafka 9y agoI got lucky and saw the Zinus thread last year, I was close to spending over a thousand when I heard about them. I spent 400 for a king mattress and a stand. My Wife loves it!
- matte_black 9y agoDIY mattresses will be the next big thing, and will disrupt the industry. A mattress you can tune as you build it to give you the exact feel you’re going for. You could even have a different feel for both sides of the bed. And for way cheaper. We’re working on it.
- andrewflnr 9y agoYou can almost do this now with mattress toppers.
- matte_black 9y agoAlmost
- crisdux 9y agoI just did this. I picked up a mattress enclosure/cover, pocket coils, a couple natural latex toppers and cannibalized a couple pieces of rigid foam from a previous mattress. The hardest part of shopping for this was finding pocket coils and a mattress enclosure/cover. My troubles finding this may have been because of my personal preference. There may be some alternatives to the typical mattress enclosures.
- konceptz 9y agoThis made me think of the article a while back about the mattress blogger who got sued. https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-blogg...
- thepumpkin1979 9y agoThank you, that was such a good read. So Casper won, does it make you hate them? I tend to dislike the winner when I read stories like this.
- conradfr 9y agoThe guy kind of got bullied to sell his website but is a millionaire and in the end it seems nobody is very ethical in the field. What's funny is that people get rich reviewing mattress online and we developers still debate inheritance vs composition like it will make or break a business ;)
- yjftsjthsd-h 9y agoBeing a millionaire is not unethical, bullying is. Did he actually do something wrong?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- matttemporary 9y agoShameless self promotion: If you are doing or are interested in a _personalized_ mattress business/start-up, please drop me a line: matress.20.j4848@spamgourmet.com We are looking for collaboration partners. (We are a technology start-up, not a mattress company.)
- dmh2000 9y agoIts probable that any 'review' site that only does reviews and doesn't have any real content behind it, has some financial relationship with some of what they review. Its a common business model.
- dmh2000 9y agoThere's a commercial on the radio here for an online mattress vendor, where they call out 'The walk of shame' you have when you leave a mattress store. Its hilarious and so true.
- devonkim 9y agoSomewhat related but this article from a while back had some observations on how mattresses are a marketer’s dream to sell. The really shady nature of these companies in protecting their brand even at the online review level does not inspire confidence and trustworthiness. https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-blogg...