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Nicotinamide riboside effects on aging similar to caloric restriction
- blunte 9y agoAs a min/max gamer, I have to ask: do these stack? (nicotinamide riboside AND caloric restriction) But I do disagree with the article that caloric restriction is impractical or dangerous - at least for "rich" western societies that already consume 50%+ more than their healthier eastern counterparts.
- pygy_ 9y agoGrowing the food industry Fattens my buttocks and belly I wonder why this is never talked about when we discuss the obesity epidemics.
- jimrandomh 9y ago> consume 50%+ more than their healthier eastern counterparts That's not true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_energy_intake https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_food_ener...
- blunte 9y agoI'm sorry, 50% is higher than actual. But still, is 3750 for US vs 2550 for Indonesia (about the same population), or 2800 for Japan, or 2990 for China any indication of a significant caloric intake difference? Further, the type and quality of the food is likely much lower for the US group consider just the relative carbonated, sugared beverage.
- allthenews 9y agoHow much of that relates to the average body size? I imagine smaller people eat less.
- Maybestring 9y agoI hypothesise a feedback loop by which people that eat more grow in size. I have conducted some experiments on myself which are consistent with this theory.
- Confusion 9y agoThese numbers include losses and waste. In the most extreme case the US could be wasting a third of their food, while achieving the same intake. So these numbers imply very little about actual calorie intake.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Greenisus 9y agoI would expect them not to stack and that you're probably better off just sticking with fasting instead of seeking a shortcut.
- isoprophlex 9y agoThere is a very annoying, pervasive typo in the article and in the title on hn. It's 'nicotinamide'. In chemistry, an omide isn't really a thing. Edit: and I'll add another sour note... I noticed this now, but how often did i read a piece of journalism outside my area of expertise with equally lazy mistakes, without noticing them?
- ScottBurson 9y agoOne of my pet peeves is journalists who don't understand what a watt is. I frequently see statements like "The plant will produce 50MW, enough to power 40,000 homes for a year."
- dang 9y agoThanks! we now have the right vowel above.
- wpietri 9y agoAs long as you're adjusting the title, I'll point out that the study does not actually demonstrate that the effects on aging are similar. Just that taking the pill creates a metabolite that might possibly have an effect on aging.
- dang 9y agoHappy to change it again, but that's harder than vowel swapping. Anyone care to suggest a more accurate title?
- oakwhiz 9y ago>how often did i read a piece of journalism outside my area of expertise with equally lazy mistakes, without noticing them? This is often referred to as the "Gell-Mann Amnesia Effect": "Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect works as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward-reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them. In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story-and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read with renewed interest as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about far-off Palestine than it was about the story you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know."
- epmaybe 9y ago"We are not able to make any definitive claims that this compound is safe..." Is this quote taken out of context? Because I thought the first step of any sort of human trial of a drug is to determine its safety. Intuitively I can't see how NR would be any different safety-wise than niacin (vitamin b3), but more clarification would be nice. Anyone who has read the paper willing to chime in?
- marshray 9y agoIt's fundamentally the responsibility of the FDA to regulate "definitive claims that a compound is safe", whereas the standard for approval for use in a clinical trial is a bit different.
- toufka 9y agoAnd this is a general issue with prophylactic or anti-aging style 'drugs'. Demonstrating a compound is safe enough to not cause undue harm while helping to rid the body of an accute ailment is a very different kind of 'safe' than something one might be expected to take every day for years.
- mkempe 9y agoWhat they mean is that they are not allowed by the FDA to make any such claims.
- SCAQTony 9y agoWell, it is in cow milk: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27052539 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27052539
- berdon 9y agoTangentially related to the safety of niacin, for most people niacin/B3 is relatively inert and used by the body. In fact, if you don't get enough of it, you fall in danger of having pellagra [1]. If I eat it, I'm guaranteed to get an ocular (ophthalmic) migraine. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellagra
- reasonattlm 9y agoWhat sort of evidence would it take to challenge my assessment of the data to date that methods of raising NAD+ levels with age, such as nicotinamide riboside supplementation, are not worth pursuing as a major area of focus in research and development? Given the history of work in this area of metabolism, mostly that relating directly to sirtuins and their manipulation, one has to be a little skeptical. Initially promising (and overhyped) results in mice went essentially nowhere, or turned out to make the condition of obesity a little less harmful, while showing little evidence of utility for healthy individuals. To answer the question, human data showing meaningful benefits that could not be achieved via exercise or calorie restriction would be very interesting. Human data showing some reliable level of reproduction of the benefits of exercise or calorie restriction without side-effects would be good news for the present majority who don't put in the effort to stay in shape. Good news for supplement sellers as well - there is no shortage of people who would pay rather than exercise or eat less, even if the results were mixed or marginal. In either case, the cost-benefit analysis runs along the lines of (a) as an individual, how much it is worth spending on a supplement that can capture a fraction of the benefits of exercise or calorie restriction, but also (b) is it worth making this a major focus of the research community, versus the rejuvenation biotechnology that can achieve far greater gains? I think (b) is always going to be answered in the negative, for me at least. No calorie restriction mimetic or exercise mimetic can possibly be as good as functional SENS repair biotechnologies. They cannot achieve the results produced by senolytics, or any of the other ways to remove the root causes of aging. If one looks at NAD+ research as the final stage of sirtuin-related calorie restriction research as a whole, it has taken as much funding to get here as it would to completely implement the SENS rejuvenation therapy package in mice. Yet we know that exercise and calorie restriction cannot add decades to healthy life, as is possible in principle for repair therapies. The data here on human nicotinamide riboside supplementation seems promising in comparison to the results of past sirtuin research, but I'd like to see a larger study group. If that larger group shows similar results, then maybe this is worth it for individuals. Either way, it is appreciated that the authors avoided running a study in overweight individuals - in this part of the field, that just muddies the waters, given the very different effects of sirtuin manipulation on thin versus fat animals. Nonetheless, it still appears to be the case that this is essentially a way to gain some of the beneficial long-term effects of fitness without putting in the physical effort. I expect future NAD+ studies and exercise studies in older individuals to converge in some ways, showing overlapping effects on cellular biochemistry. It is arguable as to whether taking up exercise, eating less, or artificially increasing NAD+ levels should be termed rejuvenation. There is a certainly a sizable grey area at the intersection of repair, compensation, and overriding regulatory signals that respond to aging.
- lvs 9y agoOK, the headline and press release basically have nothing to do with the underlying paper. The paper itself is a small sample size (24) trial that looks at tolerance. There are no statistically significant physiological effects of dosing with NR in the paper. You see a small increase in the levels of various metabolites that you would expect to see increase after dosing. They only look at cardiovascular effects, and the results are inconclusive at best. University press offices are doing nobody any favors with this kind of thing. It has to stop. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03421-7.pdf https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03421-7.pdf
- gwerbret 9y agoThis was a Phase 1 study, which means that it was designed exclusively to test safety and tolerability of the agent. This explains both the small sample size and the crossover design. I wouldn't expect there to be even tentative assessment of effect until they run a larger Phase 2 trial. As for the press office, all it would know (or care) is that this was published in a decent journal.
- wpietri 9y agoIf that's what the press office knows, "A pill that staves off aging? It's on the horizon" is a ridiculously overblown title.
- nomdeplume 9y agoFrom the linked study, under acknowledgements section: "...partial funding support were provided by ChromaDex, Inc." https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03421-7#Ack1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03421-7#Ack1
- deegles 9y agoDoes anyone know where to get it in bulk form? The commercial stuff I've seen seems way overpriced. Also, I'm happy for the disclosure but be wary of potential bias... > The study was partially funded by grants from the National Institutes of Health and the American Federation for Aging Research. ChromaDex, the maker of NIAGEN provided supplements and some financial support.
- p0wn 9y agoAs far as I know it's fairly hard to synthesize, and isn't produced in large quantities yet.
- delbel 9y agoSmoking cigarettes would do it. Nicotine + Oxygen right? Who knew the movie Sleeper had it right, keto diet and tabacco. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2fYguIX17Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2fYguIX17Q
- e9 9y agoJust use high quality niacin/nicotinic acid/vitamin-b3. "niacin supplementation increases cellular nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NAD+) levels" reference: https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-b3/ https://examine.com/supplements/vitamin-b3/
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- ggm 9y agoEat Vegemite.
- Numberwang 9y agoWhy?
- JoshMnem 9y agoI think calorie restriction is a more interesting idea, because it forces you to think about eating high-nutrient foods. The first things I did were to eliminate sugars and other processed ingredients, including all flours. Continuing to eat junk and assuming that pills and supplements will compensate for that is probably not a good idea.
- dmix 9y agoFrom the article: > From a public health perspective [restricting calories] would be impractical for many and dangerous for some. Regardless of what's the most optimal solution it's very helpful to have the option when this isn't an easy/practical option. And having tried to cut out sugars and processed foods in my own life, it was certainly not easy and required a significant monetary and time investment to cook my own meals, and buy fast-expiring produce. It doesn't have to be either/or to reach health goals, as you can mix the two depending on your particular resources.
- naasking 9y agoFor whom would calorie restriction be dangerous? I don't get the time and monetary cost either. You can precook your meals for a whole week on Sunday night, as long as you don't mind a little repetition.
- nopinsight 9y agoFor the elderly and perhaps others also, too little insulation means a higher chance of accidents (falls etc.) turning fatal. It might be quite hard to consume a sufficient amount of certain nutrients like Calcium on caloric restricted diet as well.
- JoshMnem 9y ago> And having tried to cut out sugars and processed foods in my own life, it was certainly not easy and required a significant monetary and time investment to cook my own meals, and buy fast-expiring produce. I've been doing it for two years, and there are solutions to those problems. It's cheaper and faster to eat healthily and restrict calories than to cook a typical US diet -- it just requires a different perspective. I wish I weren't busy at the moment, so I could build a website about how to manage it.
- johnchristopher 9y agoI like that comment from a few days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675412 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16675412 > Go look at the studies showing resistance training to be pretty effective in seniors before getting excited about NAD+ boosters. The resistance training is probably cheaper and better. One still has studies such as the one showing that dietary nicotinamide doesn't do a great deal in mice [3] - like sirtuin manipulations, it helps fat mice a little, but is distinctly unimpressive otherwise. > Remember that calorie restriction extends life by 40% in mice, but probably five years or less in humans - the effects of all these stress response related mechanisms of metabolic manipulation work through a few overlapping core processes, and scale down with species longevity. That's why I see them as a dead end in comparison to other strategies.
- loeg 9y agoI'd take 5 extra QALYs any day.
- nothrabannosir 9y agoIronically, the Q stands for Quality. If the reports on calorie restricted diets are to be believed, that’s not an appropriate descriptor anymore.
- loeg 9y agoNot ironic — that is exactly why I said QALYs and not just years.
- nothrabannosir 9y agoUnless I misunderstand QALY, wouldn't n+5 years of misery not necessarily equal n years of actual quality life? assuming a base quality of 0 < k ≤ 1 with n years, and a calorie restricted life at quality 0 < k' < k with n+5, surely you'd end up at k * n QALYs for a normal life, and k' * (n + 5) for a calorie restricted one? Which might very well be lower given how large n is and how much smaller k' is than k. Concretely: 85 years of misery is not 5 QALYs more than 80y of normal life. Or am I missing your point, here?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- jondiggsit 9y agoIs this the same product that Elysium Health sells? Also, the company ChromaDex seems to have an exclusive right to sell the compound. Anyone think there's an upside to the stock?
- pwnage12 9y agoYes, it is: https://www.elysiumhealth.com/supplement-facts https://www.elysiumhealth.com/supplement-facts Highly doubt there's an exclusive right to sell a compound like this. I know there are multiple suppliers so doesn't seem to be any patents involved.
- YeGoblynQueenne 9y ago24 people and six weeks? That is a very small number of people and the time is not nearly long enough to demonstrate anything like an extension of lifespan.
- m3kw9 9y agoI feel the body could sense some type of contradiction in that it seems like you are in caloric restriction, but you are really not. The could cause unknown long term effects.