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Some things I love about Hacker News (and a few I don’t)

135 points by ryanwaggoner 16y ago

ryanwaggoner 16y ago
I know this probably seems like linkbait, but I truly didn't write it for that purpose. Just wanted to post it here to say thanks (truly) to everyone who makes HN such an amazing community. It's one of the best things about the Internet for me.
- gizmomagico 16y ago
  You forgot about Political Correctness. Despite all the intellectualism, we can't discuss things that are: - Outside of the realm of rainbows & unicorns - Inconvenient truths (about the world we live in)
  - secret 16y ago
    I'm not sure that's entirely true, although I've seen certain topics frowned upon in a general sense (I'm thinking of politics). What do you have in mind?
  - pmjordan 16y ago
    Not in my experience. Sure, if the post is either offtopic (to the site) or easily mistaken for trolling, it's going to be downvoted pretty quickly. From the guidelines: Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. So even if it's related to the original submission, a post might be off-topic.
  - code_duck 16y ago
    You're also not allowed to say non-flattering things about people who HN holds dear. I guess that fits under 'inconvenient truths'. This place is great, but there is a bit of orthodoxy in the mindset - quite unfortunate, actually, as I don't think that fits at all with the 'hacker' mindset.
    - ajscherer 16y ago
      Do you have an example of someone's comment being deleted for this reason? Someone being banned from hn or experiencing any adverse effects other than being downvoted? If I came here and posted a comment to the effect of "Paul Graham is a huge idiot", I would expect to get downvoted, but I will have succeeded in saying it. Is your idea of freedom of speech "nobody gets mad at anything I say, even if my remark is formulated specifically to get them mad"?
      - code_duck 16y ago
        I'm not referring to censorship from the administration at all. I'm referring to voting patterns in relation to the expression of honest opinions about 'sacred cows' of HN. So, a> no, no adverse effects other than being downvoted (which is a form of suppression of speech through discouragement). b> that's a bit of a leading idea, assuming I am referring to statements which serve no purpose other than to intentionally inflame. I'm talking about honest opinions, offered as such, which happen to go against the group orthodoxy on HN. I wouldn't say 'getting mad' would be an issue. Actually, what I'm thinking is more in line with what you are assuming - people make the assumption that a certain line of thinking is being offered solely to be provocative, and they do not take the ideas as having been offered seriously, and rather than engage the idea, downvote as if the intent of the poster was not to seriously engage in discussion.
        ajscherer 16y ago
        Downvoting is often used to express extreme disagreement. Ideally it might not be, but there are no real guidelines on how to use downvoting, and no good mechanism to enforce them if they existed. It seems to me like the problem isn't that there are certain things you aren't allowed to say, but that there certain things that a large group of people aren't going to even bother taking seriously. It could be because they've seen the argument before and consider it both obviously wrong and inflammatory, or it could be because they've been brainwashed / self-deluded. Regardless, that is a problem with humanity, not the hacker news community.
        16y ago
  - jrockway 16y ago
    Inconvenient truths (about the world we live in) It's because any time someone uses this expression, they are trying to convince everyone that we should adopt their harebrained flat tax strategy, or something. When someone has evidence to assert their beliefs, everyone listens. When someone starts spouting garbage about the "inconvenient truth" about how the rich are being oppressed by a 20% tax rate... well, then everyone tunes out.
    - il 16y ago
      I think it's more inconvenient truths like "Your startup is overwhelmingly likely to fail". Those types of pragmatic posts/comments generally are hushed over in favor of the more exuberant ones.
      - nl 16y ago
        I think that is politeness.
    - gizmomagico 16y ago
      For example something like the NYPD Most Wanted list: http://a056-crimestoppers.nyc.gov/crimestoppers/public/publicMWGallery.cfm http://a056-crimestoppers.nyc.gov/crimestoppers/public/publi... which contains maybe 1 white person(^) out of dozens of suspects, and that there might be more to it than just bad luck in life. But at least I got some discussion going. (^) Can't really tell.
  - cynicalkane 16y ago
    It's very rare to see a well-articulated, reasonable opinion get downvoted on this website. HN seems to be slowly catching the disease where stupid popular opinions get upvoted an unreasonable amount (I call this "Slashdot Disease"), but this isn't nearly as dangerous as censorship by downvote.
    - bmelton 16y ago
      I personally have posted mathematically provable facts that happened to go against popular opinion be downvoted into negativity, so I wouldn't say it's that rare. On the whole, the general behavior seems to trend towards upvoting interestingness, but it's by no means insanely uncommon at all, I think.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - lotharbot 16y ago
        It's rare for a well articulated, reasonable, relevant, respectful opinion to be downvoted. But recall, a statement can be mathematically provable and yet fail on another of those points. --- Since you brought it up: in the specific case you're probably referring to [0], you say that you're "not sure exactly what [the parent post is] taking issue with", but the original author of the piece responded to the parent post letting him know he'd corrected his mistake [1]. So while your assertion was technically mathematically correct, I would say it was not relevant, and in fact was dismissive of a relevant concern, which I think explains the downvotes. I do not think it's fair to characterize it as being downvoted because it "happened to go against popular opinion". (I cannot say for sure; I did not vote on any of those comments, but I think I understand the sentiment of those who did.) [0] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1646343 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1646343 [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1648302 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1648302
        bmelton 16y ago
        I'm glad you brought it up -- I figured it was bad form to do so personally, and was even ashamed of posting the comment you responded to here. That said, I didn't see Max Klein's response, so I'm quite glad you pointed that out to me, as it was curious; However, I don't feel I was dismissive in the slightest. In light of the correction, I can see how others could view my stance as at odds with reality, but I personally didn't see cause for concern. Again though, my reading / interpretation of the statement was clearly not what was intended, so my logic is predicated upon a fallacy. I feel I understand it much better now that you've brought it up, because I was honestly dumbfounded at the time. Still, so as not to betray my Irish stubbornness, it _was_ mathematically correct. ;-)
terra_t 16y ago
It seems to me that in 99% of the world, business people look down on programmers, so it's nice to see there's a little corner of the world in which it's the other way around.
- webwright 16y ago
  Really? Why is that "nice"? I think it's sad-- and even sadder that you wrote that and people voted it up. If one minority is stepped on in a corner of the world, it is NOT justice if members of that same minority get to step on someone else across the globe. We should judge people as individuals. For some (very rare) software companies, pure business guys aren't super useful in the early days (Dropbox seems like an obvious example, though they certainly now need a good finance person and senior bizdev person). For the rest, an A-level sales/bizdev guy can literally make the business. Do you think Groupon is a technological feat or a business feat? They're just like programmers (and the rest of the planet). 95% of them AREN'T A-level players, but the rest are changing the world.
  - trustfundbaby 16y ago
    You're taking it a little too seriously. Its not about justice or anything like that. Its better to think of it as it being nice to have a little part of internet, where your opinions as a hacker actually carry as much weight (if not more) than the typical business guy.
    - webwright 16y ago
      Heh, maybe. Tho on the internet, I'd say the hacker is doing just fine. In fact, it's OFF the internet where the Hacker is probably less influential (i.e. conference rooms, business magazines, etc).
      - alttab 16y ago
        Too bad we don't live on the internet... or do we?
    - 16y ago
jswinghammer 16y ago
One of the things I like is that when you email someone here asking for help or advice they're quite nice about it. I've gotten some very thoughtful responses from people here when I've asked for feedback.
- subbu 16y ago
  I have found it to be true too. I have gotten answers to some business related questions that others treat as secrets.
- Keyframe 16y ago
  I even got a few emails, out of nowhere, furthering discussion that was started here. It was rather surprising (in a good way) and overall feeling I get when I talk to anyone from here (either here or email) is like that from a close colleague that I have respect for and whom I can trust. One thing I've learned about HN though, don't write anything negative about Apple. Ever. :)
  - mattmaroon 16y ago
    A solid rule if you care about karma. Except as regards to the iOS app store policies. Then you'll even find agreement when criticizing. I think all Apple criticism will become more well-received over time as people have their Animal Farm moment and realize the pigs have become indiscernible from the humans.
- jamesbritt 16y ago
  And a reminder/suggestion for people: If you're open to being contacted, put contact info in the 'about' section of your profile so people can see it.
access_denied 16y ago
One thing I love about HN is, when I post shit like this comment MICRO$OFT DIE I get imidiately downvoted for the right reasons not cos of speling that makes reading comments based on karma work.
gusper 16y ago
While it may be a bit of a time-sink, it's also very streamlined and efficient to consume. I love how visually simple it is: no images, the careful use of dark/light text, formatting of comments, lack of ads, etc. Compared to the other sites I still frequent, admittedly less and less since discovering HN, the differences are not minor. Definitely becoming a big fan though still very much an HN rookie.
jeromec 16y ago
I enjoyed this article, but I would suggest a minor correction: PG is phenomenal, but I don't believe he is responsible for shifting the balance of power from investors to founders. I think that's a function of technology and the Internet itself, as barriers to start a startup continue to be lowered. In fact, PG himself said in a TC interview there was a time (not long ago) when you almost literally had to ask permission from investors to launch a startup. That has changed, and would have been the case with or without PG, I'm fairly sure. I do, however, believe PG seriously helps to educate, encourage, and facilitate startups on the road to success within this natural function, a handful directly as YC companies, and many more through everything else he does, like his essays, Startup School, and HN. One thing I'd add to the list of dislikes of HN is how some downvoting is applied. I think downvotes are great as a mod tool for shunning comments that are hollow, trollish, or otherwise don't contribute to the discussion. What I dislike is seeing downvotes applied carelessly because of casual disagreement with a commment which is otherwise well thought out. I'd rather people actually reply expressing their dissent, which at least gives the chance for rebuttal and further debate. Downvoting is the easy way out, and tends to look rather insulting to me, because being at zero or sub-zero relegates serious commenters to the same class as trolls. I don't think that encourages a healthy commenting community.
- grellas 16y ago
  Back in the day (1980s, 1990s), only a closed circle of serial entrepreneurs knew the ins and outs of the business/legal side of launching and building a startup and the paucity of information available to those outside this circle was a major barrier to entry for young entrepreneurs, even within Silicon Valley. Beyond that, you basically had to be in Silicon Valley, or in one of only a very few other centers within the United States, to have a ghost of a chance of putting together a credible team for a startup. When you add to that the capital-intensive requirements for any credible startup back then (usually, a need for $2M to $4M out the gate to fund server purchases, etc. and to put together a quality team of high-priced engineers who, mainly for lack of knowledge, were not otherwise drawn to the startup world as they are today), most doors were closed to young founders, other than as they were willing to become supplicants at the VC entry point into this world. All that has changed, and decisively so. I would say that PG, as innovator, funder, and philosophical guru for the new breed of entrepreneurs that no longer faces the old barriers, is a major symbol of that change and a major contributor to it. I agree, though, that it is inaccurate to say that he single-handedly or even primarily made it possible. It has been fascinating to watch all this occur over the years. Founders were once little more than grist for the VC mill. All that has changed, and I don't see it ever going back. Investors remain invaluable to the process but today are required to deal with founders on terms tipping much closer to equality of bargaining power than ever before.
sdh 16y ago
dislike: target != new like: everything else :)
- nkurz 16y ago
  Some people seem to agree with you, but I much prefer it the way it is: if I want a new window, I shift-click; if I want a new tab, I cntl-click; if I want to keep it in the same window, I just click. This seems like the sanest choice to me, since everyone can have it work how they want, even if their preferences change from time to time. Or is it possible for everyone to get their desired behaviour even with "target = new"? http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_wind...
- sesqu 16y ago
  I tend to dislike sites that use target=_new. If I want to open a link in a new tab, I'll middle click it.
messel 16y ago
You mentioned how bright and knowledgeable the comments are to posts and I'd like to add to that idea. One feature of HN comments is the pseudo-anonymity. I can find out who folks are, if they share info on their ID, but the way the comments are laid out I'm usually reading the bolder toned conversations and ignoring who's saying it. That's a very powerful concept. Only when a comment really stands out as awesome or terrible do I look at the author.
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  It's true, but it's also fascinating to me that some people have built such a powerful voice here. I can't count the number of times I've been reading a really good comment and thought "this has to be patrick" and sure enough, patio11. And he's not the only one.
  - detst 16y ago
    Yeah, I find myself doing that, too. In fact, I made this observation in response to one of his comments a couple months back. I will also start reading a discussion thread that I'm pretty sure he will comment on and stop so that I can come back later to read what he has to say.
- lotharbot 16y ago
  On most forums I've been to, the username is prominently displayed above or next to a comment, along with an avatar, a way-too-large signature, and various other cruft. The end result is that each comment is contained in a rather large, personalized box, and many comments are judged by the box rather than the contents. Here on HN, there's a tiny username, in a dim font, in the middle of the line (given less prominence than "points"). This is even true of pg; his comments look just like anyone else's. This has the net result that comments are primarily judged on their contents. I often have exchanges like this with my wife: Her: "I read a really good comment on [such-and-such HN thread], it said [contents]." Me: "I wrote that." Her: "Oh. I gave you an upvote."
sabat 16y ago
I love HN and spend way too much time on here. Three things that disappoint me: * dog-pile downvoting on comments that are valid but that others may merely disagree with * the practice of killing apparently valid stories with no explanation * no 'target=' user preference so that external links could show up in another tab/window if so desired
- aneth 16y ago
  Hold apple or alt when clicking on a link to open in a new frame.
  - nuclear_eclipse 16y ago
    Or middle click in just about every browser newer than IE6...
  - sabat 16y ago
    Well, yeah. I just want it to be the default instead of having to remember to hold down the command key to open in a new tab. It's a petty complaint, I do realize. :-)
    - aneth 16y ago
      If they put a target, it would drive me crazy, particularly on my iPad. Without a target, you decide, just like you do on every other web page.
      - sabat 16y ago
        I'm suggesting something different: that there is an option in user preferences that would let you pick whether you get a new target or not. Default off.
- jonny_noog 16y ago
  no 'target=' user preference so that external links could show up in another tab/window if so desired I have always seen a default option to open links in the same window as a small but definite signal that a site is more geared towards technical people who know how to open a new tab/window if and when they want one. I'm so used to mouse gesturing a line up across a link to open it in a new window, I often confuse myself when I'm using a browser without this capability.
mdoyle 16y ago
I've only recently joined, posted my first request for advice and received some great advice. In a world of social sites where people just tell you what they had for dinner, this site feels like a great find which is full of interesting articles and debates. My only gripe is that I would like external links to open in a new tab or window if anything.
mdoyle 16y ago
I also quite like the fact that the community moderates the content. Big plus point for me.
shadowsun7 16y ago
What I like most about HN is that it's an incredibly efficient filter for reading. For instance, if I come across a fairly controversial article, or a fascinating new data set, I no longer spend as much time pausing to critically think about it - I instead open the HN comment thread and read all the intelligent for/against arguments that arise, naturally, in the comments. In simple terms, HN becomes a secondary brain for me. And that saves me time. Of course - this doesn't happen in a vacuum. The beauty of HN is that if you've read an interesting article, and there aren't many comments at that point in time, it's your duty to add your thoughts to HN, because sometimes you can see things that nobody else can and that's valuable. And the mutual thinking, the group powered fact-checking and the argumentation - all this is contributed to by all, and enjoyed by all.
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  In simple terms, HN becomes a secondary brain for me. And that saves me time. I could have saved a lot of words by just saying this :)
- kashif 16y ago
  So you do more reading to do less reading. And if HN is showing you good stories consistently then you end up doing a lot more reading?
  - shadowsun7 16y ago
    Apart from the liberal use of noprocras, I apply a few simple guidelines to everything I read on HN: 1) If the title contains 'X ways/steps/secrets to Y' I skip. 2) If the article is longer than 1500 words and appears interesting, I mark both article and comment thread as toread in my del.icio.us for reading at the end of the day. 3) If the article is linkbait, or is about a fad, I skip. 4) If the article is derivative and/or adds nothing new to the discussion (e.g.: Why you should have a co-founder), I (usually) skip.
    - vosper 16y ago
      I used to do the delicious toread thing as well, until (via a link on HN, natch) I discovered the wonders of InstaPaper - it's a wee bookmarklet that creates a to-read list for you, strips out a lot of the ugly formatting, can send you batches of stuff to read when you're bored, exports to e-reader formats... And for bonus points, they'll take either a username or email for signup - and that's it.
ced 16y ago
I love HN, but sometimes I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on tech and start-ups. We're missing out on so many great people! It's awesome that we have knowledgeable comments on web page design and computer security, but where are all the hacker biologists, psychiatrists and gardeners? Presumably, they're turned off by the NoSQL debates and the Techcrunch drama. This site is purportedly about "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."[1] Hopefully, we'll move closer to that ideal. Otherwise, we might have to fork HN. [1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- frossie 16y ago
  where are all the hacker biologists, psychiatrists, or gardeners? Err, we are here. You'd be wrong if you thought that everyone in HN is a startup person, or even a programmer. However, this is hacker news hosted on ycombinator.com. There is a prevailing standard focused on startups and even though I am not one of those people (nor do I wish to be), I do my bit to fit in with the community standard. It's like you are walking in a park and there's a bunch of people having an interesting conversation. You might ask to join in, but saying "why don't you people have an interesting conversation about clock mechanisms instead?" would be kinda rude. Saying "I love HN, but sometimes I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on tech and start-ups" strikes me as saying "I love the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra but I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on classical music". [Later edits in light of comments below:] The interesting question to ask is "why are the non-startup people here". I can only answer for myself: I came here to pick up interesting new sites (in that way I am a refugee from techcrunch - reading it felt too much like a lobotomy ). I stayed because of the quality of the discussion and because even though the startup folks sometimes seem to think they have a unique ecosystem, a lot of their issues are really common to software and even wider technical groups outside the commercial sector, like my own. So no, from that point of view I wouldn't go to an HN fork - I just can't afford another time sink, and I would still need to be on HN for my tech news. As for non-software stories, there are quite a lot of really interesting stories submitted, but they often don't gain enough traction for the home page. But there is a lot of really varied stuff in /new if you look.
  - 16y ago
mcantor 16y ago
My major gripe about Hacker News is that the time you make a post disproportionately affects its likelihood of making it to the front page.
- ryanwaggoner 16y ago
  This seems true for all social media sites; use it to your advantage.
- jokermatt999 16y ago
  That seems to be inherent in the social news set up. Is there any way to account for the time an article was submitted and keep the front page fresh?
  - philh 16y ago
    Instead of measuring time directly, make a post's "age" for the purposes of ranking be a function of page views. (Or submissions, or something similar.) I worry that it might be easier to game: refresh a lot of times before submitting to make everything else older. Submissions might work better in that regard, and there are probably other things you can do to mitigate the problem.
    - blasdel 16y ago
      That's a pretty terrific idea — and you could make it harder to game by having the page view count be a sum of how many logged in users over a karma threshold had viewed it.
tokenadult 16y ago
Yes, I think HN is especially valuable for young people not yet set on a career path (who seem to make up the majority of the readership) in opening their eyes to possibilities of entrepreneurship that also engages intellectual curiosity. It works well for much older people like me in getting a reality check on current trends.
lelele 16y ago
I like: - community, of course; - minimal design. I dislike: - only total score for comments (no up-votes vs down-votes); - no folding; - no tagging; - no way to "watch" discussions or comments; - "More" link at the bottom of each page expires (thus you have to start from front-page again, not nice if you read HN not that often); - no way to join discussions whenever someone find duplicates; - no contributions section (searchyc.com (which seems abandonware, btw), pages with best discussions by topic, etc.). EDIT: I dislike HN not being able to format an item list.
- chengmi 16y ago
  "Abandonware" may be a bit extreme. How would you change SearchYC?
  - lelele 16y ago
    More than one request has been made to get quoted strings in queries, which would be very useful, without any feedback from developers. The website is still there, however it seems the developer have dumped the code and forgot about it.
    - tptacek 16y ago
      You just responded to the developer. I use SearchYC all the time; it works great.
    - chengmi 16y ago
      I agree quoted strings in queries would be nice. There are some technical challenges in handling mixed queries where some terms are quoted and others are not, though.
      - lelele 16y ago
        Gosh, Her Majesty The Developer! Er... th-thanks for a-answering... ;-))))) Jokes aside, thank you very much for developing SearchYC and making it available. What would you think about adding a FAQ section where - among other things - you explain the "quoting issue" has indeed been considered, but dismissed because of difficult implementation? I guess every web-surfer has got used to quoting in searches, therefore not having it leaves him baffled. Cheers.
brlewis 16y ago
If you comment on the time-sink nature of HN you should at least mention the noprocrast option.
- piramida 16y ago
  Once I found and enabled anti-procrastination I find myself arriving at the "sorry" page 4-5 times per day, getting back to work instantly instead of wandering off on a knowledge hunt. Definitely one feature which makes HN the great site it is.
aneth 16y ago
My greatest pet pieve on HN: The comment field is unusable on iOS, and the rating targets are too small with no undo. I find myself composing in a notes app and pasting. (Only a problem because I like HN and spend a lot of time here recently.)
- lotharbot 16y ago
  I continue to hope pg will modify the rating targets thusly: [up arrow] X points [down arrow] by name y hours ago... I suspect this would greatly reduce the number of mis-votes.
skowmunk 16y ago
HN has been a very good source of information and opinions on certain topics of interest to me. Have come across some really awesome articles that were immediately applicable to my situation, some are absolute crap though. The moderating mechanism has been a good source of constructive feedback for my communication skills, which are far from great. (still, long way to go) Came across some great perspectives on some issues, as well as some crappy ones. Overall, I am glad I found it.
kennedywm 16y ago
I love that I can take a quick glimpse at the comments on an article before deciding whether it's worth spending the time reading.
diego_moita 16y ago
I wish he could be more detailed about the problems with HN. There is simply too much Wired magazine and/or Silicon Valley entrepreneur culture & group thinking around here and I think he didn't point it correctly. Issues routinely bashed and ignored because they don't belong to this culture: anything Microsoft, global warming, market trends in the 3rd world & Europe, etc. Irrelevant issues overly hyped just because they're loved by Silicon Valley "hipsters": the last time Steve Jobs went to the toilet, the newest irrelevant fad from Silicon Valley (Yelp, wtf?), libertarian-like conspiracy theories...

135 points by ryanwaggoner 16y ago

I know this probably seems like linkbait, but I truly didn't write it for that purpose. Just wanted to post it here to say thanks (truly) to everyone who makes HN such an amazing community. It's one of the best things about the Internet for me.

gizmomagico 16y ago
You forgot about Political Correctness. Despite all the intellectualism, we can't discuss things that are: - Outside of the realm of rainbows & unicorns - Inconvenient truths (about the world we live in)
- secret 16y ago
  I'm not sure that's entirely true, although I've seen certain topics frowned upon in a general sense (I'm thinking of politics). What do you have in mind?
- pmjordan 16y ago
  Not in my experience. Sure, if the post is either offtopic (to the site) or easily mistaken for trolling, it's going to be downvoted pretty quickly. From the guidelines: Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic. So even if it's related to the original submission, a post might be off-topic.
- code_duck 16y ago
  You're also not allowed to say non-flattering things about people who HN holds dear. I guess that fits under 'inconvenient truths'. This place is great, but there is a bit of orthodoxy in the mindset - quite unfortunate, actually, as I don't think that fits at all with the 'hacker' mindset.
  - ajscherer 16y ago
    Do you have an example of someone's comment being deleted for this reason? Someone being banned from hn or experiencing any adverse effects other than being downvoted? If I came here and posted a comment to the effect of "Paul Graham is a huge idiot", I would expect to get downvoted, but I will have succeeded in saying it. Is your idea of freedom of speech "nobody gets mad at anything I say, even if my remark is formulated specifically to get them mad"?
    - code_duck 16y ago
      I'm not referring to censorship from the administration at all. I'm referring to voting patterns in relation to the expression of honest opinions about 'sacred cows' of HN. So, a> no, no adverse effects other than being downvoted (which is a form of suppression of speech through discouragement). b> that's a bit of a leading idea, assuming I am referring to statements which serve no purpose other than to intentionally inflame. I'm talking about honest opinions, offered as such, which happen to go against the group orthodoxy on HN. I wouldn't say 'getting mad' would be an issue. Actually, what I'm thinking is more in line with what you are assuming - people make the assumption that a certain line of thinking is being offered solely to be provocative, and they do not take the ideas as having been offered seriously, and rather than engage the idea, downvote as if the intent of the poster was not to seriously engage in discussion.
      - ajscherer 16y ago
        Downvoting is often used to express extreme disagreement. Ideally it might not be, but there are no real guidelines on how to use downvoting, and no good mechanism to enforce them if they existed. It seems to me like the problem isn't that there are certain things you aren't allowed to say, but that there certain things that a large group of people aren't going to even bother taking seriously. It could be because they've seen the argument before and consider it both obviously wrong and inflammatory, or it could be because they've been brainwashed / self-deluded. Regardless, that is a problem with humanity, not the hacker news community.
      - 16y ago
- jrockway 16y ago
  Inconvenient truths (about the world we live in) It's because any time someone uses this expression, they are trying to convince everyone that we should adopt their harebrained flat tax strategy, or something. When someone has evidence to assert their beliefs, everyone listens. When someone starts spouting garbage about the "inconvenient truth" about how the rich are being oppressed by a 20% tax rate... well, then everyone tunes out.
  - il 16y ago
    I think it's more inconvenient truths like "Your startup is overwhelmingly likely to fail". Those types of pragmatic posts/comments generally are hushed over in favor of the more exuberant ones.
    - nl 16y ago
      I think that is politeness.
  - gizmomagico 16y ago
    For example something like the NYPD Most Wanted list: http://a056-crimestoppers.nyc.gov/crimestoppers/public/publicMWGallery.cfm http://a056-crimestoppers.nyc.gov/crimestoppers/public/publi... which contains maybe 1 white person(^) out of dozens of suspects, and that there might be more to it than just bad luck in life. But at least I got some discussion going. (^) Can't really tell.
- cynicalkane 16y ago
  It's very rare to see a well-articulated, reasonable opinion get downvoted on this website. HN seems to be slowly catching the disease where stupid popular opinions get upvoted an unreasonable amount (I call this "Slashdot Disease"), but this isn't nearly as dangerous as censorship by downvote.
  - bmelton 16y ago
    I personally have posted mathematically provable facts that happened to go against popular opinion be downvoted into negativity, so I wouldn't say it's that rare. On the whole, the general behavior seems to trend towards upvoting interestingness, but it's by no means insanely uncommon at all, I think.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - lotharbot 16y ago
      It's rare for a well articulated, reasonable, relevant, respectful opinion to be downvoted. But recall, a statement can be mathematically provable and yet fail on another of those points. --- Since you brought it up: in the specific case you're probably referring to [0], you say that you're "not sure exactly what [the parent post is] taking issue with", but the original author of the piece responded to the parent post letting him know he'd corrected his mistake [1]. So while your assertion was technically mathematically correct, I would say it was not relevant, and in fact was dismissive of a relevant concern, which I think explains the downvotes. I do not think it's fair to characterize it as being downvoted because it "happened to go against popular opinion". (I cannot say for sure; I did not vote on any of those comments, but I think I understand the sentiment of those who did.) [0] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1646343 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1646343 [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1648302 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1648302
      - bmelton 16y ago
        I'm glad you brought it up -- I figured it was bad form to do so personally, and was even ashamed of posting the comment you responded to here. That said, I didn't see Max Klein's response, so I'm quite glad you pointed that out to me, as it was curious; However, I don't feel I was dismissive in the slightest. In light of the correction, I can see how others could view my stance as at odds with reality, but I personally didn't see cause for concern. Again though, my reading / interpretation of the statement was clearly not what was intended, so my logic is predicated upon a fallacy. I feel I understand it much better now that you've brought it up, because I was honestly dumbfounded at the time. Still, so as not to betray my Irish stubbornness, it _was_ mathematically correct. ;-)

terra_t 16y ago

It seems to me that in 99% of the world, business people look down on programmers, so it's nice to see there's a little corner of the world in which it's the other way around.

webwright 16y ago
Really? Why is that "nice"? I think it's sad-- and even sadder that you wrote that and people voted it up. If one minority is stepped on in a corner of the world, it is NOT justice if members of that same minority get to step on someone else across the globe. We should judge people as individuals. For some (very rare) software companies, pure business guys aren't super useful in the early days (Dropbox seems like an obvious example, though they certainly now need a good finance person and senior bizdev person). For the rest, an A-level sales/bizdev guy can literally make the business. Do you think Groupon is a technological feat or a business feat? They're just like programmers (and the rest of the planet). 95% of them AREN'T A-level players, but the rest are changing the world.
- trustfundbaby 16y ago
  You're taking it a little too seriously. Its not about justice or anything like that. Its better to think of it as it being nice to have a little part of internet, where your opinions as a hacker actually carry as much weight (if not more) than the typical business guy.
  - webwright 16y ago
    Heh, maybe. Tho on the internet, I'd say the hacker is doing just fine. In fact, it's OFF the internet where the Hacker is probably less influential (i.e. conference rooms, business magazines, etc).
    - alttab 16y ago
      Too bad we don't live on the internet... or do we?
  - 16y ago

jswinghammer 16y ago

One of the things I like is that when you email someone here asking for help or advice they're quite nice about it. I've gotten some very thoughtful responses from people here when I've asked for feedback.

subbu 16y ago
I have found it to be true too. I have gotten answers to some business related questions that others treat as secrets.
Keyframe 16y ago
I even got a few emails, out of nowhere, furthering discussion that was started here. It was rather surprising (in a good way) and overall feeling I get when I talk to anyone from here (either here or email) is like that from a close colleague that I have respect for and whom I can trust. One thing I've learned about HN though, don't write anything negative about Apple. Ever. :)
- mattmaroon 16y ago
  A solid rule if you care about karma. Except as regards to the iOS app store policies. Then you'll even find agreement when criticizing. I think all Apple criticism will become more well-received over time as people have their Animal Farm moment and realize the pigs have become indiscernible from the humans.
jamesbritt 16y ago
And a reminder/suggestion for people: If you're open to being contacted, put contact info in the 'about' section of your profile so people can see it.

access_denied 16y ago

One thing I love about HN is, when I post shit like this comment MICRO$OFT DIE I get imidiately downvoted for the right reasons not cos of speling that makes reading comments based on karma work.

gusper 16y ago

While it may be a bit of a time-sink, it's also very streamlined and efficient to consume. I love how visually simple it is: no images, the careful use of dark/light text, formatting of comments, lack of ads, etc. Compared to the other sites I still frequent, admittedly less and less since discovering HN, the differences are not minor. Definitely becoming a big fan though still very much an HN rookie.

jeromec 16y ago

I enjoyed this article, but I would suggest a minor correction: PG is phenomenal, but I don't believe he is responsible for shifting the balance of power from investors to founders. I think that's a function of technology and the Internet itself, as barriers to start a startup continue to be lowered. In fact, PG himself said in a TC interview there was a time (not long ago) when you almost literally had to ask permission from investors to launch a startup. That has changed, and would have been the case with or without PG, I'm fairly sure. I do, however, believe PG seriously helps to educate, encourage, and facilitate startups on the road to success within this natural function, a handful directly as YC companies, and many more through everything else he does, like his essays, Startup School, and HN. One thing I'd add to the list of dislikes of HN is how some downvoting is applied. I think downvotes are great as a mod tool for shunning comments that are hollow, trollish, or otherwise don't contribute to the discussion. What I dislike is seeing downvotes applied carelessly because of casual disagreement with a commment which is otherwise well thought out. I'd rather people actually reply expressing their dissent, which at least gives the chance for rebuttal and further debate. Downvoting is the easy way out, and tends to look rather insulting to me, because being at zero or sub-zero relegates serious commenters to the same class as trolls. I don't think that encourages a healthy commenting community.

grellas 16y ago
Back in the day (1980s, 1990s), only a closed circle of serial entrepreneurs knew the ins and outs of the business/legal side of launching and building a startup and the paucity of information available to those outside this circle was a major barrier to entry for young entrepreneurs, even within Silicon Valley. Beyond that, you basically had to be in Silicon Valley, or in one of only a very few other centers within the United States, to have a ghost of a chance of putting together a credible team for a startup. When you add to that the capital-intensive requirements for any credible startup back then (usually, a need for $2M to $4M out the gate to fund server purchases, etc. and to put together a quality team of high-priced engineers who, mainly for lack of knowledge, were not otherwise drawn to the startup world as they are today), most doors were closed to young founders, other than as they were willing to become supplicants at the VC entry point into this world. All that has changed, and decisively so. I would say that PG, as innovator, funder, and philosophical guru for the new breed of entrepreneurs that no longer faces the old barriers, is a major symbol of that change and a major contributor to it. I agree, though, that it is inaccurate to say that he single-handedly or even primarily made it possible. It has been fascinating to watch all this occur over the years. Founders were once little more than grist for the VC mill. All that has changed, and I don't see it ever going back. Investors remain invaluable to the process but today are required to deal with founders on terms tipping much closer to equality of bargaining power than ever before.

sdh 16y ago

dislike: target != new like: everything else :)

nkurz 16y ago
Some people seem to agree with you, but I much prefer it the way it is: if I want a new window, I shift-click; if I want a new tab, I cntl-click; if I want to keep it in the same window, I just click. This seems like the sanest choice to me, since everyone can have it work how they want, even if their preferences change from time to time. Or is it possible for everyone to get their desired behaviour even with "target = new"? http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_windows.html http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_16_not_opening_new_wind...
sesqu 16y ago
I tend to dislike sites that use target=_new. If I want to open a link in a new tab, I'll middle click it.

messel 16y ago

You mentioned how bright and knowledgeable the comments are to posts and I'd like to add to that idea. One feature of HN comments is the pseudo-anonymity. I can find out who folks are, if they share info on their ID, but the way the comments are laid out I'm usually reading the bolder toned conversations and ignoring who's saying it. That's a very powerful concept. Only when a comment really stands out as awesome or terrible do I look at the author.

ryanwaggoner 16y ago
It's true, but it's also fascinating to me that some people have built such a powerful voice here. I can't count the number of times I've been reading a really good comment and thought "this has to be patrick" and sure enough, patio11. And he's not the only one.
- detst 16y ago
  Yeah, I find myself doing that, too. In fact, I made this observation in response to one of his comments a couple months back. I will also start reading a discussion thread that I'm pretty sure he will comment on and stop so that I can come back later to read what he has to say.
lotharbot 16y ago
On most forums I've been to, the username is prominently displayed above or next to a comment, along with an avatar, a way-too-large signature, and various other cruft. The end result is that each comment is contained in a rather large, personalized box, and many comments are judged by the box rather than the contents. Here on HN, there's a tiny username, in a dim font, in the middle of the line (given less prominence than "points"). This is even true of pg; his comments look just like anyone else's. This has the net result that comments are primarily judged on their contents. I often have exchanges like this with my wife: Her: "I read a really good comment on [such-and-such HN thread], it said [contents]." Me: "I wrote that." Her: "Oh. I gave you an upvote."

sabat 16y ago

I love HN and spend way too much time on here. Three things that disappoint me: * dog-pile downvoting on comments that are valid but that others may merely disagree with * the practice of killing apparently valid stories with no explanation * no 'target=' user preference so that external links could show up in another tab/window if so desired

aneth 16y ago
Hold apple or alt when clicking on a link to open in a new frame.
- nuclear_eclipse 16y ago
  Or middle click in just about every browser newer than IE6...
- sabat 16y ago
  Well, yeah. I just want it to be the default instead of having to remember to hold down the command key to open in a new tab. It's a petty complaint, I do realize. :-)
  - aneth 16y ago
    If they put a target, it would drive me crazy, particularly on my iPad. Without a target, you decide, just like you do on every other web page.
    - sabat 16y ago
      I'm suggesting something different: that there is an option in user preferences that would let you pick whether you get a new target or not. Default off.
jonny_noog 16y ago
no 'target=' user preference so that external links could show up in another tab/window if so desired I have always seen a default option to open links in the same window as a small but definite signal that a site is more geared towards technical people who know how to open a new tab/window if and when they want one. I'm so used to mouse gesturing a line up across a link to open it in a new window, I often confuse myself when I'm using a browser without this capability.

mdoyle 16y ago

I've only recently joined, posted my first request for advice and received some great advice. In a world of social sites where people just tell you what they had for dinner, this site feels like a great find which is full of interesting articles and debates. My only gripe is that I would like external links to open in a new tab or window if anything.

mdoyle 16y ago

I also quite like the fact that the community moderates the content. Big plus point for me.

shadowsun7 16y ago

What I like most about HN is that it's an incredibly efficient filter for reading. For instance, if I come across a fairly controversial article, or a fascinating new data set, I no longer spend as much time pausing to critically think about it - I instead open the HN comment thread and read all the intelligent for/against arguments that arise, naturally, in the comments. In simple terms, HN becomes a secondary brain for me. And that saves me time. Of course - this doesn't happen in a vacuum. The beauty of HN is that if you've read an interesting article, and there aren't many comments at that point in time, it's your duty to add your thoughts to HN, because sometimes you can see things that nobody else can and that's valuable. And the mutual thinking, the group powered fact-checking and the argumentation - all this is contributed to by all, and enjoyed by all.

ryanwaggoner 16y ago
In simple terms, HN becomes a secondary brain for me. And that saves me time. I could have saved a lot of words by just saying this :)
kashif 16y ago
So you do more reading to do less reading. And if HN is showing you good stories consistently then you end up doing a lot more reading?
- shadowsun7 16y ago
  Apart from the liberal use of noprocras, I apply a few simple guidelines to everything I read on HN: 1) If the title contains 'X ways/steps/secrets to Y' I skip. 2) If the article is longer than 1500 words and appears interesting, I mark both article and comment thread as toread in my del.icio.us for reading at the end of the day. 3) If the article is linkbait, or is about a fad, I skip. 4) If the article is derivative and/or adds nothing new to the discussion (e.g.: Why you should have a co-founder), I (usually) skip.
  - vosper 16y ago
    I used to do the delicious toread thing as well, until (via a link on HN, natch) I discovered the wonders of InstaPaper - it's a wee bookmarklet that creates a to-read list for you, strips out a lot of the ugly formatting, can send you batches of stuff to read when you're bored, exports to e-reader formats... And for bonus points, they'll take either a username or email for signup - and that's it.

ced 16y ago

I love HN, but sometimes I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on tech and start-ups. We're missing out on so many great people! It's awesome that we have knowledgeable comments on web page design and computer security, but where are all the hacker biologists, psychiatrists and gardeners? Presumably, they're turned off by the NoSQL debates and the Techcrunch drama. This site is purportedly about "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."[1] Hopefully, we'll move closer to that ideal. Otherwise, we might have to fork HN. [1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

frossie 16y ago
where are all the hacker biologists, psychiatrists, or gardeners? Err, we are here. You'd be wrong if you thought that everyone in HN is a startup person, or even a programmer. However, this is hacker news hosted on ycombinator.com. There is a prevailing standard focused on startups and even though I am not one of those people (nor do I wish to be), I do my bit to fit in with the community standard. It's like you are walking in a park and there's a bunch of people having an interesting conversation. You might ask to join in, but saying "why don't you people have an interesting conversation about clock mechanisms instead?" would be kinda rude. Saying "I love HN, but sometimes I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on tech and start-ups" strikes me as saying "I love the San Francisco Symphony Orchestra but I wish it wasn't so obsessively focused on classical music". [Later edits in light of comments below:] The interesting question to ask is "why are the non-startup people here". I can only answer for myself: I came here to pick up interesting new sites (in that way I am a refugee from techcrunch - reading it felt too much like a lobotomy ). I stayed because of the quality of the discussion and because even though the startup folks sometimes seem to think they have a unique ecosystem, a lot of their issues are really common to software and even wider technical groups outside the commercial sector, like my own. So no, from that point of view I wouldn't go to an HN fork - I just can't afford another time sink, and I would still need to be on HN for my tech news. As for non-software stories, there are quite a lot of really interesting stories submitted, but they often don't gain enough traction for the home page. But there is a lot of really varied stuff in /new if you look.
- 16y ago

mcantor 16y ago

My major gripe about Hacker News is that the time you make a post disproportionately affects its likelihood of making it to the front page.

ryanwaggoner 16y ago
This seems true for all social media sites; use it to your advantage.
jokermatt999 16y ago
That seems to be inherent in the social news set up. Is there any way to account for the time an article was submitted and keep the front page fresh?
- philh 16y ago
  Instead of measuring time directly, make a post's "age" for the purposes of ranking be a function of page views. (Or submissions, or something similar.) I worry that it might be easier to game: refresh a lot of times before submitting to make everything else older. Submissions might work better in that regard, and there are probably other things you can do to mitigate the problem.
  - blasdel 16y ago
    That's a pretty terrific idea — and you could make it harder to game by having the page view count be a sum of how many logged in users over a karma threshold had viewed it.

tokenadult 16y ago

Yes, I think HN is especially valuable for young people not yet set on a career path (who seem to make up the majority of the readership) in opening their eyes to possibilities of entrepreneurship that also engages intellectual curiosity. It works well for much older people like me in getting a reality check on current trends.

lelele 16y ago

I like: - community, of course; - minimal design. I dislike: - only total score for comments (no up-votes vs down-votes); - no folding; - no tagging; - no way to "watch" discussions or comments; - "More" link at the bottom of each page expires (thus you have to start from front-page again, not nice if you read HN not that often); - no way to join discussions whenever someone find duplicates; - no contributions section (searchyc.com (which seems abandonware, btw), pages with best discussions by topic, etc.). EDIT: I dislike HN not being able to format an item list.

chengmi 16y ago
"Abandonware" may be a bit extreme. How would you change SearchYC?
- lelele 16y ago
  More than one request has been made to get quoted strings in queries, which would be very useful, without any feedback from developers. The website is still there, however it seems the developer have dumped the code and forgot about it.
  - tptacek 16y ago
    You just responded to the developer. I use SearchYC all the time; it works great.
  - chengmi 16y ago
    I agree quoted strings in queries would be nice. There are some technical challenges in handling mixed queries where some terms are quoted and others are not, though.
    - lelele 16y ago
      Gosh, Her Majesty The Developer! Er... th-thanks for a-answering... ;-))))) Jokes aside, thank you very much for developing SearchYC and making it available. What would you think about adding a FAQ section where - among other things - you explain the "quoting issue" has indeed been considered, but dismissed because of difficult implementation? I guess every web-surfer has got used to quoting in searches, therefore not having it leaves him baffled. Cheers.

brlewis 16y ago

If you comment on the time-sink nature of HN you should at least mention the noprocrast option.

piramida 16y ago
Once I found and enabled anti-procrastination I find myself arriving at the "sorry" page 4-5 times per day, getting back to work instantly instead of wandering off on a knowledge hunt. Definitely one feature which makes HN the great site it is.

aneth 16y ago

My greatest pet pieve on HN: The comment field is unusable on iOS, and the rating targets are too small with no undo. I find myself composing in a notes app and pasting. (Only a problem because I like HN and spend a lot of time here recently.)

lotharbot 16y ago
I continue to hope pg will modify the rating targets thusly: [up arrow] X points [down arrow] by name y hours ago... I suspect this would greatly reduce the number of mis-votes.

skowmunk 16y ago

HN has been a very good source of information and opinions on certain topics of interest to me. Have come across some really awesome articles that were immediately applicable to my situation, some are absolute crap though. The moderating mechanism has been a good source of constructive feedback for my communication skills, which are far from great. (still, long way to go) Came across some great perspectives on some issues, as well as some crappy ones. Overall, I am glad I found it.

kennedywm 16y ago

I love that I can take a quick glimpse at the comments on an article before deciding whether it's worth spending the time reading.

diego_moita 16y ago

I wish he could be more detailed about the problems with HN. There is simply too much Wired magazine and/or Silicon Valley entrepreneur culture & group thinking around here and I think he didn't point it correctly. Issues routinely bashed and ignored because they don't belong to this culture: anything Microsoft, global warming, market trends in the 3rd world & Europe, etc. Irrelevant issues overly hyped just because they're loved by Silicon Valley "hipsters": the last time Steve Jobs went to the toilet, the newest irrelevant fad from Silicon Valley (Yelp, wtf?), libertarian-like conspiracy theories...