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Of course none of the debate actually addressed if students would possible learn better from it. Is that important if there is no way to make a different sched

Of course none of the debate actually addressed if students would possible learn better from it. Is that important if there is no way to make a different schedule work from a practical perspective?

danharaj 9y ago
Raising children is one of the fundamental processes of human society. If there really were a will, we could rearrange everything for them. But the way we treat children and teenagers is rather callous and cynical at the system level.
- watwut 9y ago
  If there was a will, teenagers would be allowed to come sooner or on bike or fully by themselves. If raising children would be really considered important, caregivers needa would not be treated with "shut up and do the things the most complicated way". For that matter, calling school that starts an hour sooner then optimal "calous" is overly hyperbolic, manipulative and dramatic.
  - danharaj 9y ago
    > For that matter, calling school that starts an hour sooner then optimal "calous" is overly hyperbolic, manipulative and dramatic. Do you know how miserable it is to be chronically sleep deprived for, like, a decade? Yes, it's callous to make someone suffer like that for the convenience of everyone else.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - watwut 9y ago
      You can and should go to bed earlier. Learning to go to sleep is important part of adulthood. The debate about whethe start an hour later or sooner due to natural rhythms is completely pointless for students that don't sleep even minimal needed amount of hours. Those need to fix "hours slept" metric first.
      - projektir 9y ago
        Yeah let's ignore the research that shows teenagers literally have a shifted sleep schedule and can't actually go to sleep early in a reliable manner. What's going on here is that we don't give a shit about people, and we like pretending that the world is fair, so whenever we're committing an atrocity (yes, this is an atrocity, sleep deprivation is a form of torture), we try to blame it on the victim. Because "we have generated an atrocity, built our society around it, and are now trying to not come to terms with that" is a tougher pill to swallow than "teenagers just all, universally, suck". This is garbage and I really wish parents would start seeing this as a big issue, big enough to raise hell not just with their school, but with their job and with society at large. Parents sure seem to have enough energy to cause teachers problems...
        watwut 9y ago
        Sleep deprived person is able to sleep in the dark. Try again. And no, even if suboptimal, middle class teenagers don't go through atrocity nor torture. If you actually went to bed and stayed there and could not sleep anyway despite being horribly sleep deprived, then you really should visit some sleep center to help you. It is not nearly the same as mild performance drop due to having suboptimal sleep time.
        projektir 9y ago
        > sleep in the dark I'm not sure what you're even trying to say. This is about chronotypes and a teenager-specific sleeping pattern that has been identified and studied. Sleep deprivation is torture, this is not my definition. Sorry, we, as a society, decided that not letting people sleep properly is really fucking crappy. If you want to disagree with that, take that up with the party that came up with the terms. Messing with someone's sleep is a major offense, and there are various ways in which it can happen, and psychology recognizes them, even if you don't. Yes, I'm sure most teenagers have means to go to a sleep center, with their full human rights and disposable income. And when pretty much every teenager has this problem I'm sure that's a good use of resources.
  - TheTrotters 9y ago
    > If there was a will, teenagers would be allowed to come sooner or on bike or fully by themselves. Wait, are there some places in US where teenagers aren’t allowed to do that?
  - mrhappyunhappy 9y ago
    They are not allowed to come home by bike now? What am I missing?
zaroth 9y ago
What blew my mind was how parents of elementary school students somehow needed the late start time to make their work possible and parents of high school students needed the late start time... to make their work possible. I tried explaining that parents of high school students almost certainly were once parents of elementary school children, and those elementary school parents will almost certainly one day have kids in high school, but gave up. The best part was the parents who had kids in both schools who would still argue against the change :-)
- jknoepfler 9y ago
  It is generally understood that students ages 14-18 are substantially more self-sufficient than students ages 6-11. Speaking for myself, I was largely self-sufficient in terms of managing my day at 14. My peers were as well. The major inconvenience of the early hours was being unable to chaperone a younger sibling.

Of course none of the debate actually addressed if students would possible learn better from it. Is that important if there is no way to make a different schedule work from a practical perspective?

danharaj 9y ago

Raising children is one of the fundamental processes of human society. If there really were a will, we could rearrange everything for them. But the way we treat children and teenagers is rather callous and cynical at the system level.

watwut 9y ago
If there was a will, teenagers would be allowed to come sooner or on bike or fully by themselves. If raising children would be really considered important, caregivers needa would not be treated with "shut up and do the things the most complicated way". For that matter, calling school that starts an hour sooner then optimal "calous" is overly hyperbolic, manipulative and dramatic.
- danharaj 9y ago
  > For that matter, calling school that starts an hour sooner then optimal "calous" is overly hyperbolic, manipulative and dramatic. Do you know how miserable it is to be chronically sleep deprived for, like, a decade? Yes, it's callous to make someone suffer like that for the convenience of everyone else.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - watwut 9y ago
    You can and should go to bed earlier. Learning to go to sleep is important part of adulthood. The debate about whethe start an hour later or sooner due to natural rhythms is completely pointless for students that don't sleep even minimal needed amount of hours. Those need to fix "hours slept" metric first.
    - projektir 9y ago
      Yeah let's ignore the research that shows teenagers literally have a shifted sleep schedule and can't actually go to sleep early in a reliable manner. What's going on here is that we don't give a shit about people, and we like pretending that the world is fair, so whenever we're committing an atrocity (yes, this is an atrocity, sleep deprivation is a form of torture), we try to blame it on the victim. Because "we have generated an atrocity, built our society around it, and are now trying to not come to terms with that" is a tougher pill to swallow than "teenagers just all, universally, suck". This is garbage and I really wish parents would start seeing this as a big issue, big enough to raise hell not just with their school, but with their job and with society at large. Parents sure seem to have enough energy to cause teachers problems...
      - watwut 9y ago
        Sleep deprived person is able to sleep in the dark. Try again. And no, even if suboptimal, middle class teenagers don't go through atrocity nor torture. If you actually went to bed and stayed there and could not sleep anyway despite being horribly sleep deprived, then you really should visit some sleep center to help you. It is not nearly the same as mild performance drop due to having suboptimal sleep time.
        projektir 9y ago
        > sleep in the dark I'm not sure what you're even trying to say. This is about chronotypes and a teenager-specific sleeping pattern that has been identified and studied. Sleep deprivation is torture, this is not my definition. Sorry, we, as a society, decided that not letting people sleep properly is really fucking crappy. If you want to disagree with that, take that up with the party that came up with the terms. Messing with someone's sleep is a major offense, and there are various ways in which it can happen, and psychology recognizes them, even if you don't. Yes, I'm sure most teenagers have means to go to a sleep center, with their full human rights and disposable income. And when pretty much every teenager has this problem I'm sure that's a good use of resources.
- TheTrotters 9y ago
  > If there was a will, teenagers would be allowed to come sooner or on bike or fully by themselves. Wait, are there some places in US where teenagers aren’t allowed to do that?
- mrhappyunhappy 9y ago
  They are not allowed to come home by bike now? What am I missing?

zaroth 9y ago

What blew my mind was how parents of elementary school students somehow needed the late start time to make their work possible and parents of high school students needed the late start time... to make their work possible. I tried explaining that parents of high school students almost certainly were once parents of elementary school children, and those elementary school parents will almost certainly one day have kids in high school, but gave up. The best part was the parents who had kids in both schools who would still argue against the change :-)

jknoepfler 9y ago
It is generally understood that students ages 14-18 are substantially more self-sufficient than students ages 6-11. Speaking for myself, I was largely self-sufficient in terms of managing my day at 14. My peers were as well. The major inconvenience of the early hours was being unable to chaperone a younger sibling.