12 ms·

How to Quit a Top Tier Tech Job

233 points by oliverzheng 9y ago

minimaxir 9y ago
About a year ago, I quit my job at Apple because I wasn't able to apply my technical skills in my role and I was not successful in transferring to another department (full blog post: http://minimaxir.com/2017/05/leaving-apple/ http://minimaxir.com/2017/05/leaving-apple/ | HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14270897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14270897) Despite the loss of a salary and frustration in getting another job (Tweetstorm about data science job hunting: https://twitter.com/minimaxir/status/951117788835278848 https://twitter.com/minimaxir/status/951117788835278848), quitting was 100% the correct move in retrospect.
- throwaway289910 9y ago
  I'm currently about to quit Microsoft and am going through the exact same set of questions in my head. I joined the company a few months ago and am blown away by how bad the culture is - or how badly I fit into the culture, take your pick. If you don't fit the culture, it's time to leave.
  - zapita 9y ago
    Out of curiosity, which part of Microsoft have you joined? The culture in large companies can vary greatly between divisions. What aspects of the culture do you not like?
    - filoleg 9y ago
      Can confirm. The variety of team cultures I've seen at Microsoft so far is insane, and my guess is that it would be the case for other similarly-sized tech companies. The range has been all the way from atrocious to good to great, with no particular leaning towards one (unlike what I heard about Amazon, though)
    - cjarrett 9y ago
      Agreed. Softie > 5 years, dramatically different culture amongst the three teams I've been in.
    - throwaway289910 9y ago
      Yes, that's very true of course. I came from a large enterprise company (100,000+ employees) so I know it's really only your immediate team culture that matters. I joined Microsoft Canada. Perhaps Corp HQ is different, but here in the sub it quickly became clear that a culture of fear and CYA is alive and well. There are dozens of meetings where the primary objective is to make sure that the organizer doesn't get blamed for stuff. Honestly, what blew me away even more was the terrible quality of execution. It's 2018, and apparently it's impossible to embed a reg form into a page. Everyone agrees that we should do it, but no one is willing to take responsibility. I tried, but multiple teams agreed that it's not my job to do it - it's not their job either, apparently, but it's definitely not mine! I'm sure Microsoft is a great place to work (I was excited to join as well), and maybe I just got really unlucky with my manager, but the idea of spending my days writing emails for CYA and not focusing on a great customer experience is not my idea of what I want from a job. Another anecdote - planning and strategy is done by FTE (full time employees), but the execution is often left to vendors - and no one really cares whether customers see a high quality outcome. It's almost comical how bad some things are. Sigh, I don't mean this to be a rant, but maybe someone else reads this. At the end of the day, no job is worth being unhappy at - or worth compromising your own personal integrity (to be clear - here I mean my desire to provide great customer experiences - MS is a very ethical and honest company in my experience)
  - kettlecorn 9y ago
    A massive issue with Microsoft's college recruiting pipeline (this may not apply to you) is that college hires are placed pretty much arbitrarily without input from the hire themselves. People interested in backend work get placed on frontend, people interested in frontend work get placed on backend. As a result, retention for Microsoft college hires is rather poor. Contrast this with Google where once you're selected you're often given a choice of a few teams and you can indicate your preference.
    - cbanek 9y ago
      That's a really interesting comparison. I've worked at Microsoft and got an offer from Google and found the opposite to be true. I was first offered by the team I interned with, whom I liked, and accepted, so I knew where I was going. On the Google case, even being an industry hire, it was like pulling teeth to figure out where the offer actually was, and who I would be working for, and being able to actually speak with them (as your manager is key to success). I was also told during the interview that they just interview you in general at Google, not for a particular team, which was also unsettling.
      - kettlecorn 9y ago
        What you say is completely true. If you were an intern at Microsoft you can be pretty sure you're returning to that team (unless there's a reorganization). With Google you have no idea what team you'll end up on when you're evaluating an offer. However, once you accept a Google offer you're given more choice as to what team you'll be on. With Microsoft (if you weren't a returning intern) you're given very little to no choice and it can be quite arbitrary where you end up. Certainly both of these systems have massive flaws, but I think the Microsoft system would lead to far lower retention for non-intern college hires.
        cbHXBY1D 9y ago
        Sort of true. You get accepted to a division at Microsoft (as a new grad) and if there's headcount on multiple teams for someone of your level you can choose between them. A lot of the time there's only one team that is willing to take on a junior engineer.
  - marssaxman 9y ago
    I stayed at Microsoft a lot longer than I should have because I could not imagine what I wanted to do next. That experience ground away at my self-confidence, every day I was there, and I should have left much sooner. Only after leaving did I start to unwind enough that I could imagine other possibilities worth pursuing. I've heard that the culture varies widely between groups, but the culture in the Visual Studio group was not one which ever had any hope of creating space for me to use the skills and creative outlook everyone genuinely seemed to believe they were hiring me for. If you don't fit the culture, then yes, I agree, leave as soon as you can.
  - notyourwork 9y ago
    "Joined a few months ago" "blown away by culture". I don't work at MS but generalizing a companies culture by working for a few months is silly. I've worked for 3 years at a big 4 and have seen excellent culture and poor culture and something in the middle. Don't generalize a company by your departments poor culture, there could be shining stars elsewhere.
- jjtheblunt 9y ago
  I don't know if we know one another, but the same here: quit my job of many years at Apple (engineering, very good rank, loved Apple) because I also wasn't able to apply my technical skills, and transferring to another department is really hard to time such that it works.
  - minimaxir 9y ago
    Other people in the linked HN discussion had similar experiences. It's genuinely weird.
  - throwaway7230 9y ago
    Same here, left same company, for similar reasons. It was also about advancement though. Once you’re at level 4 it takes god like technical skills and a lot of political showing-off to get promoted to level 5 or move into management. If you’re an “up or out” kind of person you’re going to be frustrated there! Do you remember hearing the saying: “It’s easier to get hired at [other very selective tech company] than to move internally at Apple”? So true!
    - compiler-guy 9y ago
      Diagonal promotion is a real thing across Silicon Valley. I believe it is because the company that currently employs you knows you relatively well, both your upsides and your downsides, it has seen your good code and your bad code. It has you, and knows your level of work, and assumes you will keep going, regardless. Whereas the new company has much more limited information and, as it needs someone more, it has to take the plunge.
ashwinaj 9y ago
How about just quitting because you don't get good work (whatever that definition might be)? I find it hard to believe that most people in so called "top tier" tech companies do compelling work. Not everyone gets to work on de jour areas, most people work on maintenance and improving old code bases (BTW, there is nothing wrong with this)
- praneshp 9y ago
  "How about just quitting" That might be irresponsible, from one point of view. I think TFA takes that stand.
  - chrisper 9y ago
    What's TFA
    - hinkley 9y ago
      RTFM is to RTFA as TFM is to TFA
    - Stratoscope 9y ago
      "The Fine Article" Sometimes another four-letter word is substituted for "fine".
      - tortasaur 9y ago
        Well, 7-letter.
    - rmcpherson 9y ago
      An acronym for The (fucking) article. From RTFM/RTFA. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TFA https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TFA Despite the expletive it's not usually used in anger.
    - praneshp 9y ago
      what rmcpherson said, including the part about it not being used in anger.
kolpa 9y ago
Why is it untenable to want to quit a job? If you want to quit a job (or make any other life choice), and you can afford it, go for it.
- scribu 9y ago
  The article isn’t talking about someone quiting just any old job, but about the situation in which they believe they already have one of the best possible jobs in the industry. In such a case, I imagine it’s easy to keep putting it off, precisely because you can’t think of a better scenario for yourself.
  - magic_beans 9y ago
    The person at at top-tier company who can't think of a better scenario AND has two years of savings seems to have no imagination or desire to enjoy life in any way...
machbio 9y ago
"Your legal status in the country does not depend on your continued employment. If it does, stay away from this train of thought. The destination is a depressing and harsh realization." Its sad - but most of us are out at this point..nothing more to add.
- escapecharacter 9y ago
  Yep, definitely stayed in a job longer than I wanted to because of VISA issues. No happy thoughts there.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  Most of us? I suspect that most of us do have the legal status to remain in our country of residence, even without continued employment. While there are a significant number of expats on HN, I'm pretty sure they are not the majority...
- urda 9y ago
  Most? No. There's a lot of workers in our field that are here as non-natives but they are not the majority group. The majority group are fully fledged citizens who do not have this issue to deal with.
tradedash 9y ago
Quitting a top tier tech job isn't the difficult part. The difficult part is figuring out what to do next. I quit my job as a Head of R&D for a major tech/publishing company and started https://tradedash.io https://tradedash.io (crypto desktop trading platform) with an old friend of mine who also quit his job as one of the first employees in a major fintech unicorn. For both of us, it was hands down the best decision we've ever made career wise. For years we were depressed, working jobs that we didnt value only for nothing other than the money and stability. Even though I make a whole lot less today, I haven't had a single night where I don't sleep like a baby. Quitting our jobs was the easy part once we figured out what it is that we wanted to do. For anyone looking to quit their job: figure out what to do next. Once you know what you want to do, everything else will become much easier.
- paulie_a 9y ago
  Because the author is delusional and thinks people actually give a shit about their "top tier" company...which most likely just sold ads on the internet.
  - askafriend 9y ago
    I think my comment in this link applies to your comment as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16711642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16711642 Is this person not allowed to put his own thoughts down on his own personal website? It's not like he's getting on CNN and preaching.
    - paulie_a 9y ago
      My comment was mostly in regards to the snobbiness of the "top tier" aspect. The person is free to explain his decision to leaving a job of course, but the bragging is just sad.
      - askafriend 9y ago
        I think that's fair. Either way people don't need to be so unnecessarily harsh. It was pretty clear OP didn't intend anything particularly harmful. It was probably just naivety or a lack of self-awareness...but people are talking in here about it as if it were pure evil.
AceJohnny2 9y ago
> you have enough savings to last at least two years. I've always heard it as being 6 months. Especially with his next point assuming you can certainly find employment. Or maybe that's what I chose to remember, because I'm lucky enough to work in a high-employment sector in a region that can't fill enough positions: i.e. my profile is in high demand. (... for now. I know)
- caymanjim 9y ago
  Almost no one has enough savings to last two years. It's an absurd metric and enforces how out of touch the author is. It reads as nothing more than a brag. Anyone good enough to get hired by Facebook in the first place is going to have no problem finding a job in two weeks, nevermind two years. Quit, shop around and burn some savings until you find something good enough. If it's not your dream job, stick with good enough while you shop around some more. No one worth working for actually cares about some amount of job-hopping. More employers care about long gaps than about minor job hopping. Neither is a showstopper if you find a good destination.
  - jogjayr 9y ago
    > Almost no one has enough savings to last two years. It's an absurd metric and enforces how out of touch the author is. You should check out r/financialindependence sometime. A whole community of people (358k subscribers at present) who would consider that amount table stakes. I'll admit not all 358k of those subscribers would actually have that much money but it's still hardly "almost no one".
    - wilsonnb 9y ago
      It really is almost no one. 57% of Americans with less than $1000 dollars in their savings account. Only 25% with more than $10,000. What fraction of those with more than $10,000 do you think have enough to live for two years on it? https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-in-their-savings-accounts.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-i...
  - 9y ago
edw519 9y ago
This may be the only 2 word "How To" I've ever written: Just quit. 1. It's a job, not your life. 2. It's a company, not a person. 3. "Top Tier" means neither. 4. If you were hit by a bus, they'd cry for 7 minutes and never think about you again. 5. "My work is my reference." is my standard response to that request. It works. To those who matter. 6. Moving on can skyrocket your growth when done properly. Listen to your gut. 7. "I stagnate easily." is my standard response to "Why so many jobs?" 8. You'll probably be surprised how underwhelmed they are. 9. You'll probably be surprised how much energy you wasted over this. 10. You'll definitely be glad it's over. I've quit 80 times (including contracts and customers). No regrets about how I've done it (except for agonizing over it early in my career). I've grown almost every time. No one from work cares about you nearly as much as you care about your work. Don't make this so complicated. You have personal relationships you'll miss and don't want to hurt. If that bothers you, quit over beer.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- mikeklaas 9y ago
  > 7. "I stagnate easily." is my standard response to "Why so many jobs?" Why would someone hire you for a non-short-term project in that case?
  - TheJoYo 9y ago
    A better response is, "It's the quickest way to get a pay raise." I've only quit a handful of jobs but every time it has been for a sizable salary increase. Stagnation comes off as frustration with the work when it should highlight the stagnation of salaries and the zero fucks the labor market has about a promotion cycle.
codingdave 9y ago
Most people who want to quit, will. It is more a question of when. There are many valid reasons for sticking around a while -- to try to invoke change, waiting on vesting, set up your next move, etc. But I have talked to very few people who, in hindsight, wish they had stayed longer. Most people who quit, when looking back... they wonder why they ever stayed so long in the first place.
seajosh 9y ago
"You have enough savings to last at least two years." - fuck. me.
- walshemj 9y ago
  This is America with much less social safety net than most eu countries.
- ben509 9y ago
  The pay is good at a top tier tech job.
- jstanier 9y ago
  My thoughts exactly.
- tdeck 9y ago
  I don't understand why you can't just get a new job before quitting the old one. That's what everyone does.
  - lovich 9y ago
    The current style of tech interviews makes it very difficult. A lot of places have a long interview that you end up burning a whole day on it and you only have so many vacation and sick days
    - ryandrake 9y ago
      Yep. Say you have ten days of vacation per year (welcome to the USA!) This means you can “get serious” with max 10 companies per year. I’ve in the past interviewed with that many companies in only a month! You need to be very creative with your time to do serious interviewing while still working.
    - tdeck 9y ago
      I agree it's a pain, but I work in the industry and most people I have known don't quit without another job lined up. Facebook gives 21 vacation days; Google (relatively stingy) gives 15 or more. Plus you can call in sick (I don't recommend this but if you're out the door anyway it's an option). I just don't think it's good practical advice to follow the procedure in this article.
yfiapo 9y ago
Yeesh, the mindwash is strong. I had a hard time continuing to read this post after the Prestige by Association section. Working at a respected company known for cutting edge work is generally a good sign but it does not make you an Internet God or widen my eyes. It is like saying you went to Harvard or MIT. That's neat. You are probably reasonably intelligent. However, even that isn't an automatic and I'll reserve judgement until I've made my own assessment.
- walshemj 9y ago
  You might not and I agree with you but HR and the recruiting function wont.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- ksk 9y ago
  Association and Reputation puts people into seats on premier nights, or on the streets outside Apple stores, or gets a foot in the door in business. Its a real thing, and people are wise to leverage it whenever they can!
  - notyourwork 9y ago
    Leverage it and treating it as gospel aren't the same.
    - ksk 9y ago
      Why would anyone confuse the two?
- debt 9y ago
  It's actually quite hilarious to me this Prestige by Association. I've worked at a couple very high-profile companies in the Valley and have never felt this prestige primarily because I don't hang out with complete douchebags. If people get all starry-eyed when you announce the company you work for; run in the opposite direction. Also, don't kidd yourself, you and I know both know you're not working on anything that cool. Especially because almost everyone works on a team so responsibility is pretty spread out. And even if you are working on the very algorithm that determines which ads are shown when, you're still buried in seventeen layers of process and bureaucracy for a change or product that will probably never ship or will take years to market. The day-to-day is about unglamorous as it gets. People need to realize the big "names" in the Valley are simply large corporations.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
fizwhiz 9y ago
> Being told something like "you are intrinsically amazing and working here proves it" flatters in a deep existential way but also insidiously creates a dependence on that validation. Well that hit home.
- sailfast 9y ago
  Some big consulting firms are also notorious for this kind of flattery. It comes through in their meetings with clients. Some clients get wide-eyed and pay them because they're "experts". The smart ones laugh and walk out.
sizzzzlerz 9y ago
Beyond 2 years salary in savings, one should also factor in the cost of medical insurance. One bad accident or illness will eat that savings account in a heartbeat.
- drcross 9y ago
  Only in America
- Cofike 9y ago
  The two year salary metric is very strange in my opinion. I've quit jobs and taken time off without anywhere near two years of savings.
- neogodless 9y ago
  The article actually says > enough savings to last at least two years That's good, because you should lose the mindset that salary is equal to spending in a hurry! Savings that lasts two years accounts for all of your expenses over a two year period. Yes, if you need medical insurance, and it was supplied by your employer, it no longer will be, and you need to factor that into your expenses.
jordache 9y ago
what a stupid title. How is it different than quitting any other job?
ben509 9y ago
> If your company's reputation can widen the eyes of everybody you meet when they learn where you work, your company has given you a very powerful perk. But you worked at FB, so everyone knows you're just a PHP monkey. j/k
- paulie_a 9y ago
  To be fair, in my eyes working at Facebook is now a red flag.
chubot 9y ago
This is one of those posts that should really be written in the first person, perhaps titled "How I decided to quit my job at Facebook". Although I work in the same industry as this person, my point of view couldn't be more different. None of this is useful to me and I don't know what he is talking about. It's presumptuous to assume others share your viewpoint and values. It feels like he is living in a bubble, which is not an uncommon criticism of Silicon Valley employees.
jonjojr 9y ago
How to Quit? really? "Hey Jerry, got a min? Look, I don't think this is working out. Here is my letter of resignation, and my two week notice. Thank you." Done! How hard is that to do? There is nothing holding you in chain in that job unless you are actually being held in chain in that job, at which point you should seriously analyze your life choices.
- CiPHPerCoder 9y ago
  > and my two week notice That might not be a good idea to give.
  - coastal-fiesta 9y ago
    What makes you say that?
    - danShumway 9y ago
      Some companies may not accept the two week notice, and may ask you to leave immediately. This may be true even if you have a good manager or relationship with the company. When I quit my job, I intended to give four weeks notice, and to offer to work part time for a month later if they wanted it. Manager took the offer to their upper-management, upper-management came back and said, "nope, two weeks max." I had prepared for that, but did not expect it, at all. Generally speaking you should only give notice if you're also willing to leave that day.
    - bacongobbler 9y ago
      2 weeks is the norm for regular jobs, but top tech companies are really struggling to fill top talent spots these days. While it is perfectly legal to give only 2 weeks notice, it's normally better to ask your manager how much time they'd reasonably need to fill your position, then have a conversation. So, I'd re-phrase the original conversation as "Hey Jerry, got a minute? Look, I don't think this is working out. I intend to give you a letter of resignation by the end of the day, but I want to discuss how much time you'd need to reasonably fill my position before I give my notice." Then again, if you 1. hate your job, or 2. your manager is being unreasonable about how much time they need to fill that position, or 3. don't care about burning your bridges Then go right ahead and give 2 weeks notice. It's up to you to decide how you want to frame the conversation.
southphillyman 9y ago
The article is blocked for me, but writing a blog about why you quit and what you plan to do next seems to be pretty effective. Any insider blog or article about FANG seems to do well, but one's which describe why a person DOES NOT want to work there have increased likelihood of going viral. I'm sure those writers get flooded immediately by recruiters and the like.
- phyzome 9y ago
  Does this work for you? https://archive.fo/4XcXQ https://archive.fo/4XcXQ
  - southphillyman 9y ago
    Thank you kindly, sir
boffinism 9y ago
Oh good lord. If you want to quit a job, quit it. Top tier tech is no different to anything else. OP should have titled this post "How to not realise you're having an existential crisis and respond to it by massively over-complicating a very simple career decision."
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- bthornbury 9y ago
  Fundamentally this is true, but bringing yourself to the point where you "just quit" is quite difficult. I think you're ignoring a lot of human things like that a lot developers are quite isolated and working 60+ hours a week. Their social group is quite likely just their co-workers. Especially for new devs who have relocated.
  - Cofike 9y ago
    That's a good point I didn't think about. Assuming you are most likely burning some midnight oil at a top tech company, you'd be stressed to keep up a social circle besides your coworkers. I think that plays a bigger part in it than we are thinking
matte_black 9y ago
I find the only people whose eyes go wide almost popping out of their head are younger people just entering the workforce whom may have never met someone who works at a big company whose products they use everyday (or recruiters I guess). It's like you're a celebrity to them. Hell, some of these kids used to get pumped when I was telling them I was merely heading to some Apple conference or Google I/O. No one with experience in the industry gives two shits even if you worked at Facebook, Google and Apple, because they have no illusions about what it means to work there or what it must say about you.
- dandr01d 9y ago
  Speak for yourself. I would definitely give a shit if someone who applied to my theoretical company worked at a top-tier company.
  - matte_black 9y ago
    Sounds great but not a good idea in practice. A company should always be designed in a way that it works smoothly even with people of modest backgrounds. Especially as it grows larger. Otherwise your "top tier" employees become liabilities, and it becomes unsustainable to rely purely on everyone being a top player. Basically you want a company that can still operate effectively even if everyone was a dumbass.
  - pathseeker 9y ago
    Do so at your own peril. Google is approaching 100,000 employees. The vast majority do boring data pipelines for CRUD apps. Top-tier company != top-tier employees.
    - aje403 9y ago
      You're forgetting they all read all the way through cracking the code interview, the most difficult math book in history.
      - briansteffens 9y ago
mehrdada 9y ago
It's amazing that there is a widespread tendency in Googlers to think Google is "the best place" and moving is a downgrade (i.e. fear of missing out, where do I go after this), while at the same time many Facebook employees feel exactly the same towards their employer and think moving is likely a downgrade (my friend who left FB to Snap told me that he had that feeling but now that he has moved he sees Snap as clearly better). These feelings cannot simultaneously be true, which shows the Kool-Aid is powerful indeed, and I think systematic and intentional in nature. At least for Facebook, they have an explicit propaganda ministry, ehem..., Analog Research Lab, actively working toward instating this feeling with posters and stuff.
- jpatokal 9y ago
  This article is about quitting from the FAANGs entirely. Moving from one FAANG to another does not entail a financial or reputational hit.
  - mehrdada 9y ago
    Correct. This was not an objection to the article's point at all. I was reinforcing another dimension of the notion described in the article under "prestige" that when you are at any one of them, there's a pressure that makes you think this is the best, but that cannot simultaneously be true at all of them, therefore it is probably a false feeling and you should try to suppress it.
  - heedlessly2 9y ago
    Amazon has the lowest prestige in terms of tech talent. Their bar for entry is lower than Facebook, Google, and Microsoft.
trendia 9y ago
"I will be resigning effective two weeks from now. Let me know what I can do in the meantime totrain my replacement or otherwise smooth the transition." Done.
- TheJoYo 9y ago
  IKR, save the bridge burning for the last day so you can all enjoy the blaze.
delbel 9y ago
You know, in this day in age you really need to give more then a two weeks notice. Maybe 6 weeks or more. I've had to fire clients before by giving notice and I always try to work out the best possible scenario where the least amount of damage is done. I even had to deal with yelling, screaming, threats of lawsuits. I always keep my cool and do everything I can to de-escalate the situation, stay professional, etc and try to minimize damage. Every single time this has happened I get some kind of contact or letter of appreciation thanking me for keeping things professional no matter how bad things got. It just makes me feel better as a person to know that I did everything I could to minimize potential damages and to seek the best possible scenario.
- wil421 9y ago
  Why would you give companies this kind of consideration? Most will not certainly hesitate to walk you out the door when times are bad. I have some friends who have told bosses they and leaving. By the end of the day they are told to pack their personal belongings and leave. Two weeks is the law for an employee giving notice. There aren’t many laws protecting employees especially in Work at will states.
  - joezydeco 9y ago
    Where are you located where two weeks' notice is law? If you are in an "at will" state, the law applies in both directions. Two weeks is a professional courtesy. An employer that is neither deserves nothing.
    - phyzome 9y ago
      I've seen contracts that say both "at will" and "14 days notice required". Not sure if those are in conflict. It doesn't really matter, though. Always give 2 weeks notice, as professional courtesy, but also take any of your fragile or expensive stuff home first. Depending on your employer, you may not even get a chance to revisit your desk, and instead may be escorted to the door and met with a box of your belongings. (Most employers don't pull that shit, of course, and instead are very happy to have you tie up loose ends and commit any relevant documentation before you go.)
hellllllllooo 9y ago
2 years of savings is a crazy suggestion. 3-6 months should be fine especially if you've got top tier company on your resume.
- wil421 9y ago
  Why would you quit before finding a job? I work on a relatively mundane but desirable platform at a boring megacorp and get hit up by recruiters on LinkedIn weekly.
  - Cofike 9y ago
    Take some time to work on stuff you find interesting? That's been the reason I've done it so far. If you are in the financial situation to do it I would recommend. Granted I work in a location where no one cares if you have a two year gap, let alone a two month, on your resume. The real trick is not just bum around the entire time otherwise then yes it was probably a bad call.
  - shostack 9y ago
    When I moved to the Bay my wife got a job before I did and I was fortunate enough to be able to take some down time before taking my current role. That time was priceless. I was able to fully decompress from past work stress (shocking how much you build up), get my gaming fix out of the way, and then move on to be incredibly productive with self-driven education with coding things I'd wanted to learn. I also had a massive amount of creativity come back to me because I was well rested and not stressed or distracted. If you are ever in a position to do something like a multi month or year break in between jobs, I can't recommend it enough.
- jogjayr 9y ago
  Why is it crazy? You can never start retirement saving (and I'm talking outside of a 401K) too early. If you've worked at a top-tier tech company for > 5 years and been even slightly careful with your money you're going to have that much saved up without even meaning to. Exhibit A: https://www.thefrugalgene.com/dumb-luck-rich/ https://www.thefrugalgene.com/dumb-luck-rich/
deckard1 9y ago
......................
- exolymph 9y ago
  > That said, you're going to be unemployable after 2 years. Sure, if you sit on your ass for two years. But people reenter the workforce after even longer hiatuses all the time. Is it harder than getting a job while currently employed? Of course. Is it impossible? Not at all. Ask the scads of former SAHMs who went back to work eventually.
- foepys 9y ago
  > That said, you're going to be unemployable after 2 years Bullshit. 2 years means time for personal projects that could even make you more employable. Even then, your skills and experience don't suddenly become obsolete. You might not get another job at Amagoosoftple but there are a lot of other companies out there that seek skilled workers.
- eljimmy 9y ago
  I don't think not working for 2 years would make someone unemployable so long as they are continuing to hone their craft.
  - louthy 9y ago
    It can raise doubts and suspicions with employers though. Why wasn’t he employed? Does he have a problem with work? Was he in jail? etc. Even if misplaced, you, can’t stop people thinking that way
    - tikhonj 9y ago
      Thing is, you don't need every job, you just need one job. It's not hard to find teams that are reasonable and don't get obsessed over traditional "red flags" that actually carry almost no useful signal.
  - danShumway 9y ago
danShumway 9y ago
I quit my job around two weeks ago (post: https://danshumway.com/blog/leaving-oracle/ https://danshumway.com/blog/leaving-oracle/). I'm mostly working on Open Source now, might expand to contracting in the future. It was not an easy decision to make; I don't know if that's because of the culture I was in or just because of me. What eventually pushed me was realizing that it wasn't an all or nothing venture; the most realistic worst case scenario is that I flesh out my portfolio, learn a bunch of skills, and then join another company via a better resume. I disagree about a lot here though. 2 years of income is unnecessarily lavish for most people. If you've worked at a reputable company for a few years, the "prestige" will follow you. No one will care if you worked there for 3 years or 4.
dokem 9y ago
I also quit fb in 2017. A large part was the arrogant attitude shared by many of my young peers like OP. Another factor was the over-sweetened coolaid. Fb is not the end-all, be all. It's a great place, sure, but there are smart teams and people everywhere. I couldn't finish the article.
- pacomerh 9y ago
  This is exactly how I imagine how FB's culture would be, towards the arrogant side, I would like to be wrong on this though. Would like to see if anyone else had this experience.
  - dokem 9y ago
    There are still many a+ employees who just want to build and learn. Follow the c++.
hahahsnap 9y ago
The OP has joined Facebook in June 2013. Assuming he has 3+ years of experience in Microsoft he must have been hired at Facebook at L4 which puts his salary as 135k + 250K (stock, may be more when Seattle office was just getting started). Facebook stock was ~$25 in June 2013 which means he has got 10000 RSUs of Facebook while joining. Value of this stock today is around $1.5M. He is in Seattle and his taxes are way low compared to CA. OP must have been scoring refreshers ($40k (Jan 2014), $100k(Jan 2015), $150k(Jan 2016). Let's assume has around $300K of vested stocks. OP has made $1.8M in stocks at Facebook and may be some good bonuses and quitting Facebook after has vested his initial grant. You shouldn't quit Top Tier tech jobs period unless you're this author who has made >2M. At the growing pace of FB, Google and Amzn, anyone quitting at L5 levels will learn that they could have ended up as Director in 6-8 years if they work hard in these firms.
- arcanus 9y ago
  That assumes he held his stock. Everyone I know seems to sell as soon as it vests. If so he didn't get all the return you quoted.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    There are so many ultra-optimistic assumptions in that post it’s hard to pick out just one. If all of those numbers were true it would represent the career/salary growth of an outlier employee. Although I’m sure it does happen every so often, no way the median “rank and file” software engineer at any of these top companies has that kind of outcome.
soneca 9y ago
For some reason, I was so sure it was a sarcastic post, that while clicking to read it I was already half-smiling imagining the first topic would be: - "First, make sure you write a public post announcing to the world that you quit Facebook/Google. What's the point of quiting if you can't tell anyone??" Imagine how disappointed I was.
fatjokes 9y ago
So much salt in this thread. I for one, enjoyed the article. Walking away from a high-paying, generally respected job is not a easy decision for a lot of people and there are a lot of consequences to consider. I think this writeup addresses them (to varying degrees of success), even if they don't apply to everyone and some folks may think they're arrogant.
nunez 9y ago
There is nothing different about quitting a job at a brand name than most other places except in people asking you "You worked for WHO? WHY?????" And issues regarding bonuses and stock award vests. Unless you came to such a company through a visa. Things get harder when the implication of quitting is "get shipped right back to where you came from."
scarface74 9y ago
Let me bring a non SV perspective. A lot of people seem to forget that most developers live outside of SV where the salary vs cost of living makes just as much sense. 1. For a software Engineer who has kept their skills up and lives in a major metropolitan area, it doesn't take 2 years to get a job. It usually takes me about two weeks. 2. Who defines themselves by their job? A job is just a way for me to pay my bills. I go to work, come home and twice a month money appears in my account - no more no less. But see #1 about keeping your skills marketable. The framework I use for leaving a job is simple. There are three reasons to leave a job - technology, environment, and money. Technology - if you're learning marketable technology, I can deal with a not so great environment and a below market salary for awhile. Once I build my resume, I can leave for more money. On the other hand, don't stay at a company no matter how good the money is if it will cause your skills to atrophy. You leave yourself vulnerable and you cut off optionslity. Environment - if I can find another job with a better environment, make the same amount of money and move forward technologically. I'll leave. Life is too short to stick with an environment that you hate. Money - All other things being equal, why not make as much money as you can? I don't want to be in management but if I can make a significant amount more money doing what I enjoy, why not? I've been hopping jobs for 10 years after staying at one company 9 years when I should have left after 2. But now, I'm starting to get the job hopping stench about my resume and I'm near the top for my local market. It would be counter productive for me to leave by choice in less than 3 years.
- kangax 9y ago
  Nice breakdown. I would add that money comes with responsibility and it's the money/responsibilities ratio that really matters. I was at a top-tier tech company (the one that's getting all the heat lately) for 2 years in a senior eng role, breaking my neck and struggling to maintain healthy work/life balance. Leaving it felt devastating but in retrospect, it was the right decision. Now I'm at a non-tech company, making almost the same money, having twice fewer expectations. All while working on just as exciting tech and problems. I can likely get a tech position in finance and make even more, but at what cost to my work hours and expectations? Not worth it.
  - 9y ago
em3rgent0rdr 9y ago
> "I stopped having a career vision for myself for the last year or so of my tenure at Facebook, for no particular reason." Author cites "career vision" as motivation for leaving, but why no moral qualms about working at Facebook?
ravensremix 9y ago
Relevant XKCD? https://xkcd.com/1768/ https://xkcd.com/1768/ I was able to bide my time and leave at just the right time.

233 points by oliverzheng 9y ago

About a year ago, I quit my job at Apple because I wasn't able to apply my technical skills in my role and I was not successful in transferring to another department (full blog post: http://minimaxir.com/2017/05/leaving-apple/ http://minimaxir.com/2017/05/leaving-apple/ | HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14270897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14270897) Despite the loss of a salary and frustration in getting another job (Tweetstorm about data science job hunting: https://twitter.com/minimaxir/status/951117788835278848 https://twitter.com/minimaxir/status/951117788835278848), quitting was 100% the correct move in retrospect.

throwaway289910 9y ago
I'm currently about to quit Microsoft and am going through the exact same set of questions in my head. I joined the company a few months ago and am blown away by how bad the culture is - or how badly I fit into the culture, take your pick. If you don't fit the culture, it's time to leave.
- zapita 9y ago
  Out of curiosity, which part of Microsoft have you joined? The culture in large companies can vary greatly between divisions. What aspects of the culture do you not like?
  - filoleg 9y ago
    Can confirm. The variety of team cultures I've seen at Microsoft so far is insane, and my guess is that it would be the case for other similarly-sized tech companies. The range has been all the way from atrocious to good to great, with no particular leaning towards one (unlike what I heard about Amazon, though)
  - cjarrett 9y ago
    Agreed. Softie > 5 years, dramatically different culture amongst the three teams I've been in.
  - throwaway289910 9y ago
    Yes, that's very true of course. I came from a large enterprise company (100,000+ employees) so I know it's really only your immediate team culture that matters. I joined Microsoft Canada. Perhaps Corp HQ is different, but here in the sub it quickly became clear that a culture of fear and CYA is alive and well. There are dozens of meetings where the primary objective is to make sure that the organizer doesn't get blamed for stuff. Honestly, what blew me away even more was the terrible quality of execution. It's 2018, and apparently it's impossible to embed a reg form into a page. Everyone agrees that we should do it, but no one is willing to take responsibility. I tried, but multiple teams agreed that it's not my job to do it - it's not their job either, apparently, but it's definitely not mine! I'm sure Microsoft is a great place to work (I was excited to join as well), and maybe I just got really unlucky with my manager, but the idea of spending my days writing emails for CYA and not focusing on a great customer experience is not my idea of what I want from a job. Another anecdote - planning and strategy is done by FTE (full time employees), but the execution is often left to vendors - and no one really cares whether customers see a high quality outcome. It's almost comical how bad some things are. Sigh, I don't mean this to be a rant, but maybe someone else reads this. At the end of the day, no job is worth being unhappy at - or worth compromising your own personal integrity (to be clear - here I mean my desire to provide great customer experiences - MS is a very ethical and honest company in my experience)
- kettlecorn 9y ago
  A massive issue with Microsoft's college recruiting pipeline (this may not apply to you) is that college hires are placed pretty much arbitrarily without input from the hire themselves. People interested in backend work get placed on frontend, people interested in frontend work get placed on backend. As a result, retention for Microsoft college hires is rather poor. Contrast this with Google where once you're selected you're often given a choice of a few teams and you can indicate your preference.
  - cbanek 9y ago
    That's a really interesting comparison. I've worked at Microsoft and got an offer from Google and found the opposite to be true. I was first offered by the team I interned with, whom I liked, and accepted, so I knew where I was going. On the Google case, even being an industry hire, it was like pulling teeth to figure out where the offer actually was, and who I would be working for, and being able to actually speak with them (as your manager is key to success). I was also told during the interview that they just interview you in general at Google, not for a particular team, which was also unsettling.
    - kettlecorn 9y ago
      What you say is completely true. If you were an intern at Microsoft you can be pretty sure you're returning to that team (unless there's a reorganization). With Google you have no idea what team you'll end up on when you're evaluating an offer. However, once you accept a Google offer you're given more choice as to what team you'll be on. With Microsoft (if you weren't a returning intern) you're given very little to no choice and it can be quite arbitrary where you end up. Certainly both of these systems have massive flaws, but I think the Microsoft system would lead to far lower retention for non-intern college hires.
      - cbHXBY1D 9y ago
        Sort of true. You get accepted to a division at Microsoft (as a new grad) and if there's headcount on multiple teams for someone of your level you can choose between them. A lot of the time there's only one team that is willing to take on a junior engineer.
- marssaxman 9y ago
  I stayed at Microsoft a lot longer than I should have because I could not imagine what I wanted to do next. That experience ground away at my self-confidence, every day I was there, and I should have left much sooner. Only after leaving did I start to unwind enough that I could imagine other possibilities worth pursuing. I've heard that the culture varies widely between groups, but the culture in the Visual Studio group was not one which ever had any hope of creating space for me to use the skills and creative outlook everyone genuinely seemed to believe they were hiring me for. If you don't fit the culture, then yes, I agree, leave as soon as you can.
- notyourwork 9y ago
  "Joined a few months ago" "blown away by culture". I don't work at MS but generalizing a companies culture by working for a few months is silly. I've worked for 3 years at a big 4 and have seen excellent culture and poor culture and something in the middle. Don't generalize a company by your departments poor culture, there could be shining stars elsewhere.
jjtheblunt 9y ago
I don't know if we know one another, but the same here: quit my job of many years at Apple (engineering, very good rank, loved Apple) because I also wasn't able to apply my technical skills, and transferring to another department is really hard to time such that it works.
- minimaxir 9y ago
  Other people in the linked HN discussion had similar experiences. It's genuinely weird.
- throwaway7230 9y ago
  Same here, left same company, for similar reasons. It was also about advancement though. Once you’re at level 4 it takes god like technical skills and a lot of political showing-off to get promoted to level 5 or move into management. If you’re an “up or out” kind of person you’re going to be frustrated there! Do you remember hearing the saying: “It’s easier to get hired at [other very selective tech company] than to move internally at Apple”? So true!
  - compiler-guy 9y ago
    Diagonal promotion is a real thing across Silicon Valley. I believe it is because the company that currently employs you knows you relatively well, both your upsides and your downsides, it has seen your good code and your bad code. It has you, and knows your level of work, and assumes you will keep going, regardless. Whereas the new company has much more limited information and, as it needs someone more, it has to take the plunge.

ashwinaj 9y ago

How about just quitting because you don't get good work (whatever that definition might be)? I find it hard to believe that most people in so called "top tier" tech companies do compelling work. Not everyone gets to work on de jour areas, most people work on maintenance and improving old code bases (BTW, there is nothing wrong with this)

praneshp 9y ago
"How about just quitting" That might be irresponsible, from one point of view. I think TFA takes that stand.
- chrisper 9y ago
  What's TFA
  - hinkley 9y ago
    RTFM is to RTFA as TFM is to TFA
  - Stratoscope 9y ago
    "The Fine Article" Sometimes another four-letter word is substituted for "fine".
    - tortasaur 9y ago
      Well, 7-letter.
  - rmcpherson 9y ago
    An acronym for The (fucking) article. From RTFM/RTFA. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TFA https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TFA Despite the expletive it's not usually used in anger.
  - praneshp 9y ago
    what rmcpherson said, including the part about it not being used in anger.

kolpa 9y ago

Why is it untenable to want to quit a job? If you want to quit a job (or make any other life choice), and you can afford it, go for it.

scribu 9y ago
The article isn’t talking about someone quiting just any old job, but about the situation in which they believe they already have one of the best possible jobs in the industry. In such a case, I imagine it’s easy to keep putting it off, precisely because you can’t think of a better scenario for yourself.
- magic_beans 9y ago
  The person at at top-tier company who can't think of a better scenario AND has two years of savings seems to have no imagination or desire to enjoy life in any way...

machbio 9y ago

"Your legal status in the country does not depend on your continued employment. If it does, stay away from this train of thought. The destination is a depressing and harsh realization." Its sad - but most of us are out at this point..nothing more to add.

escapecharacter 9y ago
Yep, definitely stayed in a job longer than I wanted to because of VISA issues. No happy thoughts there.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
Most of us? I suspect that most of us do have the legal status to remain in our country of residence, even without continued employment. While there are a significant number of expats on HN, I'm pretty sure they are not the majority...
urda 9y ago
Most? No. There's a lot of workers in our field that are here as non-natives but they are not the majority group. The majority group are fully fledged citizens who do not have this issue to deal with.

tradedash 9y ago

Quitting a top tier tech job isn't the difficult part. The difficult part is figuring out what to do next. I quit my job as a Head of R&D for a major tech/publishing company and started https://tradedash.io https://tradedash.io (crypto desktop trading platform) with an old friend of mine who also quit his job as one of the first employees in a major fintech unicorn. For both of us, it was hands down the best decision we've ever made career wise. For years we were depressed, working jobs that we didnt value only for nothing other than the money and stability. Even though I make a whole lot less today, I haven't had a single night where I don't sleep like a baby. Quitting our jobs was the easy part once we figured out what it is that we wanted to do. For anyone looking to quit their job: figure out what to do next. Once you know what you want to do, everything else will become much easier.

paulie_a 9y ago
Because the author is delusional and thinks people actually give a shit about their "top tier" company...which most likely just sold ads on the internet.
- askafriend 9y ago
  I think my comment in this link applies to your comment as well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16711642 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16711642 Is this person not allowed to put his own thoughts down on his own personal website? It's not like he's getting on CNN and preaching.
  - paulie_a 9y ago
    My comment was mostly in regards to the snobbiness of the "top tier" aspect. The person is free to explain his decision to leaving a job of course, but the bragging is just sad.
    - askafriend 9y ago
      I think that's fair. Either way people don't need to be so unnecessarily harsh. It was pretty clear OP didn't intend anything particularly harmful. It was probably just naivety or a lack of self-awareness...but people are talking in here about it as if it were pure evil.

AceJohnny2 9y ago

> you have enough savings to last at least two years. I've always heard it as being 6 months. Especially with his next point assuming you can certainly find employment. Or maybe that's what I chose to remember, because I'm lucky enough to work in a high-employment sector in a region that can't fill enough positions: i.e. my profile is in high demand. (... for now. I know)

caymanjim 9y ago
Almost no one has enough savings to last two years. It's an absurd metric and enforces how out of touch the author is. It reads as nothing more than a brag. Anyone good enough to get hired by Facebook in the first place is going to have no problem finding a job in two weeks, nevermind two years. Quit, shop around and burn some savings until you find something good enough. If it's not your dream job, stick with good enough while you shop around some more. No one worth working for actually cares about some amount of job-hopping. More employers care about long gaps than about minor job hopping. Neither is a showstopper if you find a good destination.
- jogjayr 9y ago
  > Almost no one has enough savings to last two years. It's an absurd metric and enforces how out of touch the author is. You should check out r/financialindependence sometime. A whole community of people (358k subscribers at present) who would consider that amount table stakes. I'll admit not all 358k of those subscribers would actually have that much money but it's still hardly "almost no one".
  - wilsonnb 9y ago
    It really is almost no one. 57% of Americans with less than $1000 dollars in their savings account. Only 25% with more than $10,000. What fraction of those with more than $10,000 do you think have enough to live for two years on it? https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-in-their-savings-accounts.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/13/how-much-americans-at-have-i...
- 9y ago

edw519 9y ago

This may be the only 2 word "How To" I've ever written: Just quit. 1. It's a job, not your life. 2. It's a company, not a person. 3. "Top Tier" means neither. 4. If you were hit by a bus, they'd cry for 7 minutes and never think about you again. 5. "My work is my reference." is my standard response to that request. It works. To those who matter. 6. Moving on can skyrocket your growth when done properly. Listen to your gut. 7. "I stagnate easily." is my standard response to "Why so many jobs?" 8. You'll probably be surprised how underwhelmed they are. 9. You'll probably be surprised how much energy you wasted over this. 10. You'll definitely be glad it's over. I've quit 80 times (including contracts and customers). No regrets about how I've done it (except for agonizing over it early in my career). I've grown almost every time. No one from work cares about you nearly as much as you care about your work. Don't make this so complicated. You have personal relationships you'll miss and don't want to hurt. If that bothers you, quit over beer.

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mikeklaas 9y ago
> 7. "I stagnate easily." is my standard response to "Why so many jobs?" Why would someone hire you for a non-short-term project in that case?
- TheJoYo 9y ago
  A better response is, "It's the quickest way to get a pay raise." I've only quit a handful of jobs but every time it has been for a sizable salary increase. Stagnation comes off as frustration with the work when it should highlight the stagnation of salaries and the zero fucks the labor market has about a promotion cycle.

codingdave 9y ago

Most people who want to quit, will. It is more a question of when. There are many valid reasons for sticking around a while -- to try to invoke change, waiting on vesting, set up your next move, etc. But I have talked to very few people who, in hindsight, wish they had stayed longer. Most people who quit, when looking back... they wonder why they ever stayed so long in the first place.

seajosh 9y ago

"You have enough savings to last at least two years." - fuck. me.

walshemj 9y ago
This is America with much less social safety net than most eu countries.
ben509 9y ago
The pay is good at a top tier tech job.
jstanier 9y ago
My thoughts exactly.
tdeck 9y ago
I don't understand why you can't just get a new job before quitting the old one. That's what everyone does.
- lovich 9y ago
  The current style of tech interviews makes it very difficult. A lot of places have a long interview that you end up burning a whole day on it and you only have so many vacation and sick days
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    Yep. Say you have ten days of vacation per year (welcome to the USA!) This means you can “get serious” with max 10 companies per year. I’ve in the past interviewed with that many companies in only a month! You need to be very creative with your time to do serious interviewing while still working.
  - tdeck 9y ago
    I agree it's a pain, but I work in the industry and most people I have known don't quit without another job lined up. Facebook gives 21 vacation days; Google (relatively stingy) gives 15 or more. Plus you can call in sick (I don't recommend this but if you're out the door anyway it's an option). I just don't think it's good practical advice to follow the procedure in this article.

yfiapo 9y ago

Yeesh, the mindwash is strong. I had a hard time continuing to read this post after the Prestige by Association section. Working at a respected company known for cutting edge work is generally a good sign but it does not make you an Internet God or widen my eyes. It is like saying you went to Harvard or MIT. That's neat. You are probably reasonably intelligent. However, even that isn't an automatic and I'll reserve judgement until I've made my own assessment.

walshemj 9y ago
You might not and I agree with you but HR and the recruiting function wont.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
ksk 9y ago
Association and Reputation puts people into seats on premier nights, or on the streets outside Apple stores, or gets a foot in the door in business. Its a real thing, and people are wise to leverage it whenever they can!
- notyourwork 9y ago
  Leverage it and treating it as gospel aren't the same.
  - ksk 9y ago
    Why would anyone confuse the two?
debt 9y ago
It's actually quite hilarious to me this Prestige by Association. I've worked at a couple very high-profile companies in the Valley and have never felt this prestige primarily because I don't hang out with complete douchebags. If people get all starry-eyed when you announce the company you work for; run in the opposite direction. Also, don't kidd yourself, you and I know both know you're not working on anything that cool. Especially because almost everyone works on a team so responsibility is pretty spread out. And even if you are working on the very algorithm that determines which ads are shown when, you're still buried in seventeen layers of process and bureaucracy for a change or product that will probably never ship or will take years to market. The day-to-day is about unglamorous as it gets. People need to realize the big "names" in the Valley are simply large corporations.

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fizwhiz 9y ago

> Being told something like "you are intrinsically amazing and working here proves it" flatters in a deep existential way but also insidiously creates a dependence on that validation. Well that hit home.

sailfast 9y ago
Some big consulting firms are also notorious for this kind of flattery. It comes through in their meetings with clients. Some clients get wide-eyed and pay them because they're "experts". The smart ones laugh and walk out.

sizzzzlerz 9y ago

Beyond 2 years salary in savings, one should also factor in the cost of medical insurance. One bad accident or illness will eat that savings account in a heartbeat.

drcross 9y ago
Only in America
Cofike 9y ago
The two year salary metric is very strange in my opinion. I've quit jobs and taken time off without anywhere near two years of savings.
neogodless 9y ago
The article actually says > enough savings to last at least two years That's good, because you should lose the mindset that salary is equal to spending in a hurry! Savings that lasts two years accounts for all of your expenses over a two year period. Yes, if you need medical insurance, and it was supplied by your employer, it no longer will be, and you need to factor that into your expenses.

jordache 9y ago

what a stupid title. How is it different than quitting any other job?

ben509 9y ago

> If your company's reputation can widen the eyes of everybody you meet when they learn where you work, your company has given you a very powerful perk. But you worked at FB, so everyone knows you're just a PHP monkey. j/k

paulie_a 9y ago
To be fair, in my eyes working at Facebook is now a red flag.

chubot 9y ago

This is one of those posts that should really be written in the first person, perhaps titled "How I decided to quit my job at Facebook". Although I work in the same industry as this person, my point of view couldn't be more different. None of this is useful to me and I don't know what he is talking about. It's presumptuous to assume others share your viewpoint and values. It feels like he is living in a bubble, which is not an uncommon criticism of Silicon Valley employees.

jonjojr 9y ago

How to Quit? really? "Hey Jerry, got a min? Look, I don't think this is working out. Here is my letter of resignation, and my two week notice. Thank you." Done! How hard is that to do? There is nothing holding you in chain in that job unless you are actually being held in chain in that job, at which point you should seriously analyze your life choices.

CiPHPerCoder 9y ago
> and my two week notice That might not be a good idea to give.
- coastal-fiesta 9y ago
  What makes you say that?
  - danShumway 9y ago
    Some companies may not accept the two week notice, and may ask you to leave immediately. This may be true even if you have a good manager or relationship with the company. When I quit my job, I intended to give four weeks notice, and to offer to work part time for a month later if they wanted it. Manager took the offer to their upper-management, upper-management came back and said, "nope, two weeks max." I had prepared for that, but did not expect it, at all. Generally speaking you should only give notice if you're also willing to leave that day.
  - bacongobbler 9y ago
    2 weeks is the norm for regular jobs, but top tech companies are really struggling to fill top talent spots these days. While it is perfectly legal to give only 2 weeks notice, it's normally better to ask your manager how much time they'd reasonably need to fill your position, then have a conversation. So, I'd re-phrase the original conversation as "Hey Jerry, got a minute? Look, I don't think this is working out. I intend to give you a letter of resignation by the end of the day, but I want to discuss how much time you'd need to reasonably fill my position before I give my notice." Then again, if you 1. hate your job, or 2. your manager is being unreasonable about how much time they need to fill that position, or 3. don't care about burning your bridges Then go right ahead and give 2 weeks notice. It's up to you to decide how you want to frame the conversation.

southphillyman 9y ago

The article is blocked for me, but writing a blog about why you quit and what you plan to do next seems to be pretty effective. Any insider blog or article about FANG seems to do well, but one's which describe why a person DOES NOT want to work there have increased likelihood of going viral. I'm sure those writers get flooded immediately by recruiters and the like.

phyzome 9y ago
Does this work for you? https://archive.fo/4XcXQ https://archive.fo/4XcXQ
- southphillyman 9y ago
  Thank you kindly, sir

boffinism 9y ago

Oh good lord. If you want to quit a job, quit it. Top tier tech is no different to anything else. OP should have titled this post "How to not realise you're having an existential crisis and respond to it by massively over-complicating a very simple career decision."

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bthornbury 9y ago
Fundamentally this is true, but bringing yourself to the point where you "just quit" is quite difficult. I think you're ignoring a lot of human things like that a lot developers are quite isolated and working 60+ hours a week. Their social group is quite likely just their co-workers. Especially for new devs who have relocated.
- Cofike 9y ago
  That's a good point I didn't think about. Assuming you are most likely burning some midnight oil at a top tech company, you'd be stressed to keep up a social circle besides your coworkers. I think that plays a bigger part in it than we are thinking

matte_black 9y ago

I find the only people whose eyes go wide almost popping out of their head are younger people just entering the workforce whom may have never met someone who works at a big company whose products they use everyday (or recruiters I guess). It's like you're a celebrity to them. Hell, some of these kids used to get pumped when I was telling them I was merely heading to some Apple conference or Google I/O. No one with experience in the industry gives two shits even if you worked at Facebook, Google and Apple, because they have no illusions about what it means to work there or what it must say about you.

dandr01d 9y ago
Speak for yourself. I would definitely give a shit if someone who applied to my theoretical company worked at a top-tier company.
- matte_black 9y ago
  Sounds great but not a good idea in practice. A company should always be designed in a way that it works smoothly even with people of modest backgrounds. Especially as it grows larger. Otherwise your "top tier" employees become liabilities, and it becomes unsustainable to rely purely on everyone being a top player. Basically you want a company that can still operate effectively even if everyone was a dumbass.
- pathseeker 9y ago
  Do so at your own peril. Google is approaching 100,000 employees. The vast majority do boring data pipelines for CRUD apps. Top-tier company != top-tier employees.
  - aje403 9y ago
    You're forgetting they all read all the way through cracking the code interview, the most difficult math book in history.
    - briansteffens 9y ago

mehrdada 9y ago

It's amazing that there is a widespread tendency in Googlers to think Google is "the best place" and moving is a downgrade (i.e. fear of missing out, where do I go after this), while at the same time many Facebook employees feel exactly the same towards their employer and think moving is likely a downgrade (my friend who left FB to Snap told me that he had that feeling but now that he has moved he sees Snap as clearly better). These feelings cannot simultaneously be true, which shows the Kool-Aid is powerful indeed, and I think systematic and intentional in nature. At least for Facebook, they have an explicit propaganda ministry, ehem..., Analog Research Lab, actively working toward instating this feeling with posters and stuff.

jpatokal 9y ago
This article is about quitting from the FAANGs entirely. Moving from one FAANG to another does not entail a financial or reputational hit.
- mehrdada 9y ago
  Correct. This was not an objection to the article's point at all. I was reinforcing another dimension of the notion described in the article under "prestige" that when you are at any one of them, there's a pressure that makes you think this is the best, but that cannot simultaneously be true at all of them, therefore it is probably a false feeling and you should try to suppress it.
- heedlessly2 9y ago
  Amazon has the lowest prestige in terms of tech talent. Their bar for entry is lower than Facebook, Google, and Microsoft.

trendia 9y ago

"I will be resigning effective two weeks from now. Let me know what I can do in the meantime totrain my replacement or otherwise smooth the transition." Done.

TheJoYo 9y ago
IKR, save the bridge burning for the last day so you can all enjoy the blaze.

delbel 9y ago

You know, in this day in age you really need to give more then a two weeks notice. Maybe 6 weeks or more. I've had to fire clients before by giving notice and I always try to work out the best possible scenario where the least amount of damage is done. I even had to deal with yelling, screaming, threats of lawsuits. I always keep my cool and do everything I can to de-escalate the situation, stay professional, etc and try to minimize damage. Every single time this has happened I get some kind of contact or letter of appreciation thanking me for keeping things professional no matter how bad things got. It just makes me feel better as a person to know that I did everything I could to minimize potential damages and to seek the best possible scenario.

wil421 9y ago
Why would you give companies this kind of consideration? Most will not certainly hesitate to walk you out the door when times are bad. I have some friends who have told bosses they and leaving. By the end of the day they are told to pack their personal belongings and leave. Two weeks is the law for an employee giving notice. There aren’t many laws protecting employees especially in Work at will states.
- joezydeco 9y ago
  Where are you located where two weeks' notice is law? If you are in an "at will" state, the law applies in both directions. Two weeks is a professional courtesy. An employer that is neither deserves nothing.
  - phyzome 9y ago
    I've seen contracts that say both "at will" and "14 days notice required". Not sure if those are in conflict. It doesn't really matter, though. Always give 2 weeks notice, as professional courtesy, but also take any of your fragile or expensive stuff home first. Depending on your employer, you may not even get a chance to revisit your desk, and instead may be escorted to the door and met with a box of your belongings. (Most employers don't pull that shit, of course, and instead are very happy to have you tie up loose ends and commit any relevant documentation before you go.)

hellllllllooo 9y ago

2 years of savings is a crazy suggestion. 3-6 months should be fine especially if you've got top tier company on your resume.

wil421 9y ago
Why would you quit before finding a job? I work on a relatively mundane but desirable platform at a boring megacorp and get hit up by recruiters on LinkedIn weekly.
- Cofike 9y ago
  Take some time to work on stuff you find interesting? That's been the reason I've done it so far. If you are in the financial situation to do it I would recommend. Granted I work in a location where no one cares if you have a two year gap, let alone a two month, on your resume. The real trick is not just bum around the entire time otherwise then yes it was probably a bad call.
- shostack 9y ago
  When I moved to the Bay my wife got a job before I did and I was fortunate enough to be able to take some down time before taking my current role. That time was priceless. I was able to fully decompress from past work stress (shocking how much you build up), get my gaming fix out of the way, and then move on to be incredibly productive with self-driven education with coding things I'd wanted to learn. I also had a massive amount of creativity come back to me because I was well rested and not stressed or distracted. If you are ever in a position to do something like a multi month or year break in between jobs, I can't recommend it enough.
jogjayr 9y ago
Why is it crazy? You can never start retirement saving (and I'm talking outside of a 401K) too early. If you've worked at a top-tier tech company for > 5 years and been even slightly careful with your money you're going to have that much saved up without even meaning to. Exhibit A: https://www.thefrugalgene.com/dumb-luck-rich/ https://www.thefrugalgene.com/dumb-luck-rich/

deckard1 9y ago

......................

exolymph 9y ago
> That said, you're going to be unemployable after 2 years. Sure, if you sit on your ass for two years. But people reenter the workforce after even longer hiatuses all the time. Is it harder than getting a job while currently employed? Of course. Is it impossible? Not at all. Ask the scads of former SAHMs who went back to work eventually.
foepys 9y ago
> That said, you're going to be unemployable after 2 years Bullshit. 2 years means time for personal projects that could even make you more employable. Even then, your skills and experience don't suddenly become obsolete. You might not get another job at Amagoosoftple but there are a lot of other companies out there that seek skilled workers.
eljimmy 9y ago
I don't think not working for 2 years would make someone unemployable so long as they are continuing to hone their craft.
- louthy 9y ago
  It can raise doubts and suspicions with employers though. Why wasn’t he employed? Does he have a problem with work? Was he in jail? etc. Even if misplaced, you, can’t stop people thinking that way
  - tikhonj 9y ago
    Thing is, you don't need every job, you just need one job. It's not hard to find teams that are reasonable and don't get obsessed over traditional "red flags" that actually carry almost no useful signal.
- danShumway 9y ago

danShumway 9y ago

I quit my job around two weeks ago (post: https://danshumway.com/blog/leaving-oracle/ https://danshumway.com/blog/leaving-oracle/). I'm mostly working on Open Source now, might expand to contracting in the future. It was not an easy decision to make; I don't know if that's because of the culture I was in or just because of me. What eventually pushed me was realizing that it wasn't an all or nothing venture; the most realistic worst case scenario is that I flesh out my portfolio, learn a bunch of skills, and then join another company via a better resume. I disagree about a lot here though. 2 years of income is unnecessarily lavish for most people. If you've worked at a reputable company for a few years, the "prestige" will follow you. No one will care if you worked there for 3 years or 4.

dokem 9y ago

I also quit fb in 2017. A large part was the arrogant attitude shared by many of my young peers like OP. Another factor was the over-sweetened coolaid. Fb is not the end-all, be all. It's a great place, sure, but there are smart teams and people everywhere. I couldn't finish the article.

pacomerh 9y ago
This is exactly how I imagine how FB's culture would be, towards the arrogant side, I would like to be wrong on this though. Would like to see if anyone else had this experience.
- dokem 9y ago
  There are still many a+ employees who just want to build and learn. Follow the c++.

hahahsnap 9y ago

The OP has joined Facebook in June 2013. Assuming he has 3+ years of experience in Microsoft he must have been hired at Facebook at L4 which puts his salary as 135k + 250K (stock, may be more when Seattle office was just getting started). Facebook stock was ~$25 in June 2013 which means he has got 10000 RSUs of Facebook while joining. Value of this stock today is around $1.5M. He is in Seattle and his taxes are way low compared to CA. OP must have been scoring refreshers ($40k (Jan 2014), $100k(Jan 2015), $150k(Jan 2016). Let's assume has around $300K of vested stocks. OP has made $1.8M in stocks at Facebook and may be some good bonuses and quitting Facebook after has vested his initial grant. You shouldn't quit Top Tier tech jobs period unless you're this author who has made >2M. At the growing pace of FB, Google and Amzn, anyone quitting at L5 levels will learn that they could have ended up as Director in 6-8 years if they work hard in these firms.

arcanus 9y ago
That assumes he held his stock. Everyone I know seems to sell as soon as it vests. If so he didn't get all the return you quoted.
- ryandrake 9y ago
  There are so many ultra-optimistic assumptions in that post it’s hard to pick out just one. If all of those numbers were true it would represent the career/salary growth of an outlier employee. Although I’m sure it does happen every so often, no way the median “rank and file” software engineer at any of these top companies has that kind of outcome.

soneca 9y ago

For some reason, I was so sure it was a sarcastic post, that while clicking to read it I was already half-smiling imagining the first topic would be: - "First, make sure you write a public post announcing to the world that you quit Facebook/Google. What's the point of quiting if you can't tell anyone??" Imagine how disappointed I was.

fatjokes 9y ago

So much salt in this thread. I for one, enjoyed the article. Walking away from a high-paying, generally respected job is not a easy decision for a lot of people and there are a lot of consequences to consider. I think this writeup addresses them (to varying degrees of success), even if they don't apply to everyone and some folks may think they're arrogant.

nunez 9y ago

There is nothing different about quitting a job at a brand name than most other places except in people asking you "You worked for WHO? WHY?????" And issues regarding bonuses and stock award vests. Unless you came to such a company through a visa. Things get harder when the implication of quitting is "get shipped right back to where you came from."

scarface74 9y ago

Let me bring a non SV perspective. A lot of people seem to forget that most developers live outside of SV where the salary vs cost of living makes just as much sense. 1. For a software Engineer who has kept their skills up and lives in a major metropolitan area, it doesn't take 2 years to get a job. It usually takes me about two weeks. 2. Who defines themselves by their job? A job is just a way for me to pay my bills. I go to work, come home and twice a month money appears in my account - no more no less. But see #1 about keeping your skills marketable. The framework I use for leaving a job is simple. There are three reasons to leave a job - technology, environment, and money. Technology - if you're learning marketable technology, I can deal with a not so great environment and a below market salary for awhile. Once I build my resume, I can leave for more money. On the other hand, don't stay at a company no matter how good the money is if it will cause your skills to atrophy. You leave yourself vulnerable and you cut off optionslity. Environment - if I can find another job with a better environment, make the same amount of money and move forward technologically. I'll leave. Life is too short to stick with an environment that you hate. Money - All other things being equal, why not make as much money as you can? I don't want to be in management but if I can make a significant amount more money doing what I enjoy, why not? I've been hopping jobs for 10 years after staying at one company 9 years when I should have left after 2. But now, I'm starting to get the job hopping stench about my resume and I'm near the top for my local market. It would be counter productive for me to leave by choice in less than 3 years.

kangax 9y ago
Nice breakdown. I would add that money comes with responsibility and it's the money/responsibilities ratio that really matters. I was at a top-tier tech company (the one that's getting all the heat lately) for 2 years in a senior eng role, breaking my neck and struggling to maintain healthy work/life balance. Leaving it felt devastating but in retrospect, it was the right decision. Now I'm at a non-tech company, making almost the same money, having twice fewer expectations. All while working on just as exciting tech and problems. I can likely get a tech position in finance and make even more, but at what cost to my work hours and expectations? Not worth it.
- 9y ago

em3rgent0rdr 9y ago

> "I stopped having a career vision for myself for the last year or so of my tenure at Facebook, for no particular reason." Author cites "career vision" as motivation for leaving, but why no moral qualms about working at Facebook?

ravensremix 9y ago

Relevant XKCD? https://xkcd.com/1768/ https://xkcd.com/1768/ I was able to bide my time and leave at just the right time.