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Ask HN: Any recommended resources to develop system thinking?

365 points by febin 9y ago

I have read Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows, anything else?

jamesrcole 9y ago
I'd read books that contain case studies of systemic phenomena. Like books on evolution (I'd recommend those by Dawkins and Dennett) or economics (even something like the Planet Money podcast). Reading about specific cases is good for honing your intuitions about systems, which is important for being able to think in systemic terms. I don't know your background but I also think learning programming is valuable.
abhiyerra 9y ago
Science, Strategy and War covers the OODA loop which has a lot of similarities with systems thinking which I found useful in terms of orienting business and attacking problems.
notduncansmith 9y ago
Rich Hickey has some great talks on YouTube. If you are a software engineer: Build a simple database, a simple interpreter, and a simple web application (backend and frontend). Read about “distributed systems”, “devops”, “Conway’s Game Of Life”, and “fractals”. Read about these technologies/techniques (in whatever order is comfortable), how they work, their pros and cons, why they were created, how they compare to alternatives: “TCP”, “Open Sound Control”, “Plan9”, “REST”, “Lisp”, “Erlang”, “Smalltalk”, “Forth”, “Datomic”, “event sourcing”, “reactive programming”, “communicating sequential processes”, “APL”/“J”/“K”, “Ansible”, “jq”, “graph databases”, “Apache Kafka” The idea is not to become an expert in any of these, but to digest the wisdom that lies in their design and surrounding literature. Each was created after lots of careful thought by brilliant people about how to build sustainable systems.
- ioddly 9y ago
  Where does one get started building a simple database?
  - bordercases 9y ago
    Can you develop a file format plus API that is ACID compliant in C?
    - elvinyung 9y ago
      Careful with that word ("ACID"), it's ridiculously easy to get screwed by the filesystem arbitrarily lying about things like the order of system calls: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2801719 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2801719
      - jmalicki 9y ago
        The file system does not lie, it just does not provide guarantees of ordering.
  - weavie 9y ago
    I found Martin Kleppmans book - Designing Data-Intensive Applications (http://martin.kleppmann.com/ http://martin.kleppmann.com/) to be a great primer.
    - goostavos 9y ago
      An absolutely _fantastic_ book. It was also one of the scariest books I've read recently. Made me realize just how much I don't know (and don't know that I don't know!) about the failure modes of distributed systems.
    - gothy 9y ago
      This is a must read book even if you're not building a database :)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - tayo42 9y ago
    Something like a kv store with a btree or sstable. https://github.com/antirez/otree https://github.com/antirez/otree simple example I think
- bauerd 9y ago
  Huh? I currently work with some of the technologies you mention, but fail to see the connection to systems theory. Can you elaborate why e.g. jq or Erlang are relevant here?
  - bordercases 9y ago
    Most of those technologies are known for either how they handle complexity, or the coordination between asynchronous actors with shared resources
    - gaius 9y ago
      Uhhh what? jq is basically an updated sed. One input stream, one output stream, no awareness of anything else
      - joncampbelldev 9y ago
        Perhaps they meant it as a good example of the type of component to build systems out of, simple input->output. Unsure though.
      - JshWright 9y ago
        You don't see how a simple input/output streaming model would be helpful in understanding systems theory and design? There are a _lot_ of systems out there that tie together various components with tools that behave a lot like jq (or literally are jq...)
        gaius 9y ago
        Yes this is how every Unix command line utility works. There is nothing unique about jq in this regard, and there is nothing particularly “systems thinking” about any of them. You can and people have used them for decades without doing any special “systems thinking”.
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- blueprint 9y ago
  > how to build sustainable systems Well, except for reactive programming
- tazjin 9y ago
  Missing the thing that has had the single biggest impact on how I personally think about programming: Learning a properly typed language (e.g. Haskell). I'd also substitute Ansible with Nix/NixOS because the conceptual takeaways are much greater there.
- thinkersilver 9y ago
  This is how it worked out for me. I tried to build the system myself and note the abstractions, edge case. It didn't make me an expert in all things but gave me the right questions to ask. As you do enough of these your expertise will crystallise in a particular domain. Started by building my own build system, monitoring solutions, taking at stab orchestration problems, graph databases etc. The problem statement would be super simple like how do I install my application on 100 servers? And I will start off with bash, tar, ssh and work my way up. The goal isn't too finish. You want to discover the problems first hand, decide upfront how you would evaluate an acceptable solution, attempt a naive solution, and then look at an open source system, note the family of algorithms + data structures then loop back and move onto the next set of problems in the domain. Ideally the system you're building is distributed. Mostly I work from the outside going in and counterintuitively I start with the two non-functional requirements, as questions: how fast do you want it to go, secondly how badly can the system fail. I find that I'm peculiar in this approach. This won't work for everyone. It has for me because it's allowed me to build a handy library of interrogative and evaluative heuristics and develop strong understanding system architectures and design
mch82 9y ago
What were your key takeaways from "Thinking in Systems"? What is your goal with systems thinking?
- febin 9y ago
  I got an idea of system thinking, but I found it difficult to understand some concepts. I simply want to get good at building great systems.
kanishkdudeja 9y ago
Paras Chopra's blog - https://invertedpassion.com/ https://invertedpassion.com/
- pella 9y ago
  https://invertedpassion.com/notes-from-skin-in-the-game-by-nassim-nicholas-taleb/ https://invertedpassion.com/notes-from-skin-in-the-game-by-n...
bordercases 9y ago
The box-and-arrows paradigm for systems, built in the 50s and enjoying popularity briefly in the 80s, is overrated, and has been outmoded by the likes of complexity theory. This is due to the fact that box-and-arrows systems like those made by Club of Rome to predict civilizational collapse carry strong assumptions as to the nature and structure of underlying variables and as such become very brittle as the size of the system scales. The norm is not the closed-loop circuit models that initially inspired systems thinking, but open-loop energetic models where any structural element is more like a rarified pattern than an ontological atom. The result is a discipline that has transformed into managing uncertain outcomes in large heterogeneous models, i.e. complexity theory, rather than reducing everything to balls-and-sticks. Meadows was famous for devising "12 basic places to intervene in a system", nowadays the focus is on hedging bets adequately such that interventions don't catastrophically fuck up. That said, some of the basic tooling is still flexible enough for basic business problems and some of the old gems are able to explain important concepts found in other fields without getting bogged down in the math. https://www.amazon.com/Early-Retirement-Extreme-Philosophical-Independence/dp/145360121X https://www.amazon.com/Early-Retirement-Extreme-Philosophica... is my favourite, it's not about retirement, it's about using systems thinking to devise a robust lifestyle. https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-Anniversary/dp/0932633498/ https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking... will make a good complement to Meadows and should give you a calculus to rigorously think of systems with. https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Cybernetics-W-Ross-Ashby/dp/1614277656/ https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Cybernetics-W-Ross-Ashby... for its explanation on entropy, I mean requisite diversity, which will you give you an approximate mental quantity of how "powerful" any given system is. https://www.amazon.com/Sciences-Artificial-Herbert-Simon/dp/0262691914/ https://www.amazon.com/Sciences-Artificial-Herbert-Simon/dp/... and https://www.amazon.com/Design-Rules-Vol-Power-Modularity/dp/0262024667/ https://www.amazon.com/Design-Rules-Vol-Power-Modularity/dp/... I haven't read either of these, but Herb Simon is extremely influential and has great thoughts on the notion of system hierarchies (nearly-decomposable systems is a great concept for design). The second book is about the properties of modular systems, which will help grok the reasoning behind a lot of refactoring techniques. Good luck.
- llamaz 9y ago
  Very interesting. Can I ask from which background you came to be interested in systems (e.g. biology or electrical engineering)?
valeg 9y ago
Thinking and Deciding by Jonathan Baron: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Deciding-4th-Jonathan-Baron/dp/0521680433 https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Deciding-4th-Jonathan-Baron/... General System Theory by Ludwig von Bertalanffy: https://www.amazon.com/General-System-Theory-Foundations-Applications/dp/0807600156/ref=pd_sim_14_6?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0807600156&pd_rd_r=3MMXFTXX0JK37R68TKJ5&pd_rd_w=5mGuK&pd_rd_wg=b82Uw&psc=1&refRID=3MMXFTXX0JK37R68TKJ5 https://www.amazon.com/General-System-Theory-Foundations-App...
NiklasMort 9y ago
Thinking in Systems: A Primer by Donella H. Meadows (Author),‎ Diana Wright ( ISBN-10: 1603580557 ISBN-13: 978-1603580557
- spodek 9y ago
  This book is my top recommendation too. Also: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donella+meadows&oq=&gs_l= https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donella+meadows... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dennis+meadows https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dennis+meadows https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=peter+senge https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=peter+senge
fouc 9y ago
I suspect a strong background in Physics leads to systems thinking. Especially since a couple of my favourite system thinkers are Jacob Lund Fisker and Elon Musk. They both have degrees in physics.
- selimthegrim 9y ago
  Since when did Musk get a PhD in anything? He has a BS in physics
- n4r9 9y ago
  I looked up Fisker and it appears he is someone who combined personal austerity with a decent income in order to retire early. A couple of books, a blog, and several interviews, but that's literally all they're about. How are you interpreting "systems thinking"? What's the difference between "systems thinking" and "analysing and making informed decisions according to one's goals"?
  - fouc 9y ago
    Honestly you'd have to read his book or some of his posts on the forum or blog to get a sense of his system thinking. I can't immediately point out any good links though, the book is a good start. It's not so much a personal finance book but about systems and models, I highly recommend it. At least you'd get the sense of what it looks like when a physicist writes a "personal finance book"
andyjohnson0 9y ago
Systemantics: How Systems Work & Especially How They Fail by John Gall. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Systemantics-Systems-Work-Especially-They/dp/0812906748 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Systemantics-Systems-Work-Especiall... The writing style is kind of unusual, but there is a lot of wisdom to be found in it.
- Buttons840 9y ago
  That book is half commedy, but does give some interesting things to think about. I enjoyed reading it, and have been meaning to read it again.
sz4kerto 9y ago
Read 'Domain driven design'. Read about product development and talk to non-technical product owners, CEOs, and so on. One of the major challenges in building functional systems is to understand the domain as that's what going to constrain you in the real life.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
iovrthoughtthis 9y ago
I, actually have no idea what this really means. Does anyone have a good explanation? Systems Thinking redirects to Systems Theory on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory Is that what we're talking about?
- weavie 9y ago
  I am similarly confused, 'system' is a very overloaded term..
- chadcmulligan 9y ago
  from the book page 2: So, what is a system? A system is a set of things-people, cells, molecules, or whatever-interconnected in such a way that they produce their own pattern of behavior over time. The system may be buffeted,constricted, triggered, or driven by outside forces. But the system's response to these forces is characteristic of itself, and that response is seldom simple in the real world. Donella H. Meadows. Thinking in Systems: A Primer (Kindle Locations 89-90). Kindle Edition. This is one of the most important books I've ever read, if you want the way you think about the world to change read it. It's a very short read to.
- ismail 9y ago
  Yes. So it is systems theory applied in multiple domains, can be used as a framework to understand or model the world around you. See my other posts. It is a way of thinking about the world, and contrasts with traditional linear thinking. It is where interaction and interrelationships are understood to drive outcomes and behaviours of the system under study. As mentioned it is a massive field.
knbknb 9y ago
"Introduction to Agent-Based Modeling" Course. https://www.complexityexplorer.org/courses/76-introduction-to-agent-based-modeling-2017 https://www.complexityexplorer.org/courses/76-introduction-t... It is an introduction to NetLogo (a free simulation software and a Programming Language), but in hindsight I think the couse and the book teach some useful concepts.
gaius 9y ago
Step 1: get out of the habit of thinking “systems” means “computers”. People and processes (not Unix processes!) are the major components of systems in this context.
VvR-Ox 9y ago
Do object oriented programming. On the way you'll create systems of objects and with ongoing experience you'll also learn to move the abstraction layer around. I think while doing this for some time it's a little easier to think about other (real world) problems as systems and you may find parallels between software development and this real world.
soroso 9y ago
Russ Ackoff's "Ackoff's Best: His Classic Writings on Management" di Russell L. Ackoff. http://a.co/6LvRWPO http://a.co/6LvRWPO And also Ackoff's talks on Systems Thinking: https://youtu.be/EbLh7rZ3rhU https://youtu.be/EbLh7rZ3rhU
- karmakaze 9y ago
  Oh how I remember Ackoff. Required reading for undergrad Systems Design Eng. What is a system..., Good times
goopthink 9y ago
Overcomplicated Building Evolutionary Architecture The Checklist Manifesto The Half Life of Data How Buildings Learn I recommend looking into anything around processes or process-building/management, project management, how incentives work, and how the brain works. The natural world and the corporate world are great examples of systems in action.
- ckluis 9y ago
  Seconded the Checklist Manifesto.
  - sokoloff 9y ago
    Checklist Manifesto is a great (and short/easy) read that I also recommend, but I don't think it's going to be especially helpful to someone looking for techniques to develop new systems thinking models. At most, it's a recounting of someone else's very specific systems work that has some unexpectedly strong outcomes from surprisingly simple drivers.
- sitkack 9y ago
  See also Jane Jacobs, "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_American_Cities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_Am...
elvinyung 9y ago
A few cool reads in this area that are varyingly-related to software: * Architecture of Open Source Applications (http://aosabook.org/en/index.html http://aosabook.org/en/index.html): always a nice reference for brief overviews of how various OSS projects are architected. * Counterintuitive Behavior of Social Systems (https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/sloan-school-of-management/15-988-system-dynamics-self-study-fall-1998-spring-1999/readings/behavior.pdf https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/sloan-school-of-management/15-98...): primarily an argument by Jay Forrester (the "father" of system dynamics) for using computer models to test social policy changes, but also serves as a primer for how systems are complicated, and how to approach reasoning about complex systems. * A City Is Not A Tree (http://en.bp.ntu.edu.tw/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/06-Alexander-A-city-is-not-a-tree.pdf http://en.bp.ntu.edu.tw/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/06-Alexan...): ostensibly a paper about the structure of cities, but but really a deeper insight into the limits of using tree-like structures to describe systems.
- dqpb 9y ago
  I had never heard of "Architecture of Open Source Applications". Nice, and free online!
gibsonf1 9y ago
I highly recommend this now free book: https://www.gilb.com/p/competitive-engineering https://www.gilb.com/p/competitive-engineering A metric-based approach to systems engineering focused on continuous improvement and adding value.
jacques_chester 9y ago
I find the visibly distinct split in recommendations to be fascinating. Of the books I've read, Sterman's Business Dynamics: Systems Thinking and Modeling for a Complex World is the best all-round introduction to both the theory and practice of systems thinking. There are a lot of books and as a family of related fields, systems have historically attracted creative and iconoclastic thinkers. That can be fun, but also frustrating. I think Sterman strikes the right balance. It can be surprisingly difficult to lay your hands on a copy; Amazon tends to list 2nd-hand copies at high prices ($200+). I waited several years before seeing one on sale for $90.
- EliRivers 9y ago
  As an aside, I see that while amazon.com currently lists them quite highly priced right now, alibris.com can find some much cheaper versions. Second hand prices on amazon are sometimes surprisingly high, and sometimes, their new prices too - I routinely check bookdepository, wordery, booksplea.se, agreatread, thriftbooks, abebooks and alibris - each of them bests the others and Amazon frequently enough to keep checking them all. My list of sites to check is UK focused, but I expect there are US equivalents. Looks like alibris will do a copy of the book in question for a bit under 20 USD as I type, with some searching around.
  - Pietertje 9y ago
    Piranhas.co does the same, though with less sites. It also includes shipping costs.
- Pamar 9y ago
  Abebooks lists several copies in the 20-25 USD price range though. Some even with CD-Rom... they all seem to be “International Edition” whatever this means.
  - EliRivers 9y ago
    "International Edition" generally means printed significantly more cheaply, and not intended for sale within "rich countries"; generally countries where they can realistically push the expensive version. International Editions often say on them "Not for sale in the US" or some such, depending on the publisher; they sell in poorer countries at a lower price. The quality is often, in my experience, significantly lower; the paper is thinner, the ink cheaper, sometimes the alignment of the printing is a little off. Colour plates are missing or decoloured, hardbacks become softbacks, and so on. But, the words are the same, and sometimes the International Edition is actually pretty reasonable quality. I've got some that are clearly pretty shoddy, and some that you wouldn't actually know were Internationals. I suspect that sometimes publishers don't reprint it cheaply; they just stamp some of them "International Edition, not for sale in countries <x y z>" on it and ship them abroad to sell, much as some semiconductor manufacturers' cheaper chips actually come off the same line as the expensive ones, and then get tweaked (or even just labelled down). A sale is a sale.
contingencies 9y ago
I try to maintain proximity to insights I read in this space with a fortune database tailored to the area: http://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup http://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup
paraschopra 9y ago
To me, systems thinking is all about accepting that _most_ thinking that isn't physics contains interactions that wouldn't pop naturally in the mind during analysis. So the first step to thinking in systems is the acceptance that there are more interactions out there in the world than what can fit in our mind or what jumps to us through intuition. I find sketching diagrams helps. I also try to see feedback loops and bottlenecks. My recommendation would be to try breaking down systems. For example, I do that on my blog: - https://invertedpassion.com/revenue-requires-investment-profit-requires-creativity/ https://invertedpassion.com/revenue-requires-investment-prof... - https://invertedpassion.com/science-of-setting-achieving-goals/ https://invertedpassion.com/science-of-setting-achieving-goa... - https://invertedpassion.com/what-food-delivery-companies-can-learn-from-netflix/ https://invertedpassion.com/what-food-delivery-companies-can...
- iovrthoughtthis 9y ago
  Reminds me of Frederic Bastiat's "that which is seen and that which is not seen". http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html
jirir 9y ago
Perhaps this would interest only EU hackers .. but I think it’s going to be extremely interesting as a “system design/theory” problem. There is the GDPR regulation going to kick off in May 2018. Simply put it regulates how an organization has to handle personal data. And that is a huge deal. The task is: Make the organization GDPR compliant. Does anyone has a suggestion how to approach such a task from the most general “system design/theory” perspective?
- ianstallings 9y ago
  GDPR interests US hackers too. I'm currently working on a SAAS that helps companies manage their data privacy, with GDPR being the main driver. I can't say much about our approach just yet as we're in stealth mode still, but imho the approach should be centered around awareness of what, where, and how data is stored. That's the very first step.
chadcmulligan 9y ago
Haven't read it myself but: The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization is one I've heard a lot of systems people recommend
iovrthoughtthis 9y ago
Does this pretty much boil down to "if we poke it here, what will it do?"
ommunist 9y ago
Try to track what exactly are you doing for a month, every day, with 20-min steps, and think of your time spending budget in the end of each week with data and figures. You will be amazed how your mindset will change towards systems thinking in the end of the third month of this practice. You really will be. Be persistent, that’s the only pre-requisite and requirement for this indispensable exercise. Its origin is late Taylorian self-monitoring practice designed by Gastev in 1923, and it rocks. http://www.leanok.ru/2015/01/hronokarta-po-gastevu.html http://www.leanok.ru/2015/01/hronokarta-po-gastevu.html
HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
I don't have any specific links, but ISTR that INCOSE has a lot of publications & recommended practices, etc. However, nothing beats working with an experienced Systems Engineer (as in: someone with a degree in Systems Engineering who has practiced it for many years) if you have the opportunity. I learned something every day working with those guys. https://www.incose.org/ProductsPublications/Papers-Presentations-library https://www.incose.org/ProductsPublications/Papers-Presentat...
- donjoe 9y ago
  Their 'handbook' is a great source, older versions can be found online for free: [pdf] http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/SystemsEng/SEHandbookv3_2006.pdf http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/S...
pjmorris 9y ago
Gerald Weinberg has several books on the topic [0, 1]. Dorner [2] has a short, sharp, thoughtful book on our biases in analyzing complex systems. [0] 'An Introduction to General Systems Thinking', Gerald Weinberg [1] 'General Principles of Systems Design', Gerald Weinberg [2] 'The Logic Of Failure: Recognizing And Avoiding Error In Complex Situations', Dietrich Dorner
- tmaly 9y ago
  I second the recommendation of Weinberg, its a classic.
- grndn 9y ago
  +100 "The Logic Of Failure" is a great starting point, and everything by Gerald Weinberg is worth reading.
rcarraway 9y ago
The NASA Systems Engineering Handbook is one of my favorites: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/nasa_systems_engineering_handbook.pdf https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/nasa_sy...
kesor 9y ago
Learn by watching and reading materials released by great system thinkers. Ludwig von Bertalanffy https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_ebooks_1?text=Ludwig+von+Bertalanffy&search-alias=books&field-author=Ludwig+von+Bertalanffy https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_ebooks_1?text=Ludw... John Seddon https://youtu.be/hbNsQFd8DQw https://youtu.be/hbNsQFd8DQw https://youtu.be/kjKG011gsJ4 https://youtu.be/kjKG011gsJ4 https://youtu.be/FbmuqYRi8z4 https://youtu.be/FbmuqYRi8z4 Theory of Constraints https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2O https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2O The Goal / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KYW1L66 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KYW1L66 Necessary but Not Sufficient / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/0884271137 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0884271137 It's Not Luck / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00408ALES https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00408ALES Isn't it Obvious? / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2E https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2E Critical Chain / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004THZ9VK https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004THZ9VK Be Fast or Be Gone / Andreas Scherer https://www.amazon.com/dp/1499660901 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1499660901 Hanging Fire / Jeff Cox https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439158932 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439158932 Velocity / Dee Jacob https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XKX1FEO https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XKX1FEO Epiphanized / Bob Sproull & Bruce Nelson https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0185JFYEO https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0185JFYEO Focus and Leverage / Bob Sproull & Bruce Nelson A full list of books on ToC here http://www.tocico.org/?page=toc_books http://www.tocico.org/?page=toc_books Russell L. Ackoff https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?search-alias=books&field-author=Russell+L.+Ackoff https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?search-alia... Gerald M. Weinberg https://www.amazon.com/Gerald-M.-Weinberg/e/B00459FFAC/ https://www.amazon.com/Gerald-M.-Weinberg/e/B00459FFAC/ Philip B. Crosby https://www.amazon.com/Philip-B.-Crosby/e/B001HD360A https://www.amazon.com/Philip-B.-Crosby/e/B001HD360A Peter M. Senge https://www.amazon.com/Peter-M.-Senge/e/B000AQ8R86/ https://www.amazon.com/Peter-M.-Senge/e/B000AQ8R86/ And many more, most of which are mentioned by the above in their work.
jnymck 9y ago
The book Making Things Work by Yaneer Bar-Yam
wunderlust 9y ago
The Santa Fe Institute[0] has some courses, tutorials, and publications[1] mainly, it seems, around complexity science. Complexity science isn't the same as systems theory/science, but most (all?) systems are complex so systems thinking usually necessitates some grasp of complexity. It's probably a good place to start. They also have short courses on information theory, differential equations, and such. [0] https://www.santafe.edu/ https://www.santafe.edu/ [1] https://www.santafe.edu/research/results/books https://www.santafe.edu/research/results/books
a_bonobo 9y ago
Along with Meadows' Thinking in Systems I read Mitchell's Complexity: A Guided Tour, which is just that - a reasonably superficial tour over many examples. It's a very good starting point since it's got a long bibliography.
donjoe 9y ago
If you're able to read in German I can highly recommend Haberfellner's Systems Engineering. So far I couldn't find the book translated. https://www.ofv.ch/lernmedien/detail/systems-engineering/14546/ https://www.ofv.ch/lernmedien/detail/systems-engineering/145...
- ensignro2340 9y ago
  That book looks promising. My German's not the greatest, but I tend to have an easier time with reading it.
  - donjoe 9y ago
    In case you wanna dig really deep, check out: https://www.incose.org/ https://www.incose.org/ ... and have a look at their handbook. Older copies should be available for free online: https://www.incose.org/ProductsPublications/sehandbook https://www.incose.org/ProductsPublications/sehandbook [pdf] http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/SystemsEng/SEHandbookv3_2006.pdf http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/S...
rodolphoarruda 9y ago
Read Peter Senge's work.
nickpsecurity 9y ago
A lot of folks liked Just Enough Structured Analysis by Yourdon. Yourdon's methods date back to the 1970's with a lot of real-world application. That approach was also used in at least one high-assurance system (Tenix Data Diode). http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~sasanr/Teaching-Material/SAD/JESA.pdf http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~sasanr/Teaching-Material/SAD/JE...
neves 9y ago
The good ole Gerald Weinberg always has wisdom to share: https://leanpub.com/generalsystemsthinking https://leanpub.com/generalsystemsthinking
poat 9y ago
In addition to reading about systems thinking, I would recommend actively practicing it. I’ve found that looking for and cataloging abstract patterns has developed my ability to recognize and reason about real-world systems. For an example of what I mean, take a look at this project: https://github.com/perspectivesonatheme/patterns https://github.com/perspectivesonatheme/patterns
la_fayette 9y ago
introduction to cybernetics. it is a great book with exercises and it is free. http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html
olfactory 9y ago
I suggest three interesting exercises: - design a QA process for a software product. How important is "blame" vs team learning? What are the tradeoffs of a blame-oriented approach vs a systems oriented approach? - build something using AWS or App Engine infrastructure that makes you have to work around the various constraints imposed by the system designers. Consider how to make a system reliable when building it using "unreliable" services. - consider a Marxist interpretation of the US legal system. I'd argue that it constitutes a reasonable systems oriented critique, and makes it clear how (at least for me) pre-existing biases made it at first seem absurd. I suggest this mainly to highlight how biases can impact systems thinking. The QA process example is also deeply emotionally charged for many engineers but should not be.
aik 9y ago
Read 'The Fifth Discipline'
deleted 9y ago
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aytekin 9y ago
The Art of Thinking in Systems and The Goal are must read. https://www.amazon.com/Art-Thinking-Systems-Critically-Strategic-ebook/dp/B078YYJBXL https://www.amazon.com/Art-Thinking-Systems-Critically-Strat... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2O/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2O/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...
ismail 9y ago
The answer below assumes the following: - You are talking about the application of general systems theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory - You would like to learn to apply 'systems thinking' principals and analysis in many domains or to new problems - You would like to learn to model systems - It is also important to note in many domains there are specific branches of systems theory that may be more applicable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_systems_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_systems_theor... - You could spend an entire lifetime learning in this field as many have done. Types of systems: Systems can be broken down by multiple dimensions: - Complex - simple - unitary - pluralist - coercive Systems thinking approaches: - Hard systems thinking - Systems dynamics - Cybernetics - Complexity Theory - Soft Systems - Emancipatory systems thinking - Postmodern systems thinking Learning More about Systems Thinking: - A great website is the systems thinker, that covers quite a bit of topics. The articles are actually archives of a newsletter called "The systems thinker" https://thesystemsthinker.com/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/ - To get an overview of various approaches to systems thinking from an organizational perspective: Systems Thinking: Creative Holism for Managers by Michael C. Jackson. https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Creative-Holism-Managers/dp/0470845228 https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Creative-Holism-Mana... - For general systems theory: An Introduction to General Systems Thinking by Gerald M. Weinberg https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-Anniversary/dp/0932633498 https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking... - For systems thinking and the learning organization: The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization by Peter Senge https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Organization/dp/0385517254 https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Or... - There is a great course that covers soft systems methodology, specifically to solve social problems: https://www.plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice https://www.plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice - Habits of a systems thinker: https://www.watersfoundation.org/systems-thinking-tools-and-strategies/habits-of-a-systems-thinker/ https://www.watersfoundation.org/systems-thinking-tools-and-... - Systems thinking resources: http://donellameadows.org/systems-thinking-resources/ http://donellameadows.org/systems-thinking-resources/ * Update added additional resources.
- asn0 9y ago
utanapishtim 9y ago
The work of John Holland, Melanie Mitchell, Geoffrey West, most anyone at the Sante Fe Institute.
otakucode 9y ago
Honestly, play a bunch of videogames and pay attention to the mechanics and optimal play strategies. They're doing a fantastic job of giving even young children an extremely deep intuitive understanding of system thinking concepts. Stay away from twitchy multiplayer competition-based games, though, those teach nothing.
- jimfk 8y ago
  Some video games, like SimCity 4, can't be played well without being a systems thinker. Everything connects to everything else in the game. If you change a factor (such as a residential tax property tax rate, or the number of roads in a neighborhood) there will be cascading effects on other game factors (such as city revenues for police, or neighborhood air pollution).
beedeebeedee 9y ago
If you are interested in systems theory, I would recommend Ross Ashby's Introduction to Cybernetics. It's a short book and free to download: https://archive.org/details/introductiontocy00ashb https://archive.org/details/introductiontocy00ashb Much of the pioneering work in systems theory was done in the 1930-40's by different (but related) groups of academics in the fields of Systems Theory, Cybernetics, as well as Operational Research. Bertalanffy and Wienberg are progenitors of those fields, but I would stick to people like Ashby, who are much better writers. The work they produced is profound and laid the foundation for much of our modern academic disciplines and industrial practices. There are a lot of fascinating people and fascinating work that came out of those academic groups during that period. They are too many to list, but I would give William Grey Walter and his robotic tortoise's as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLULRlmXkKo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLULRlmXkKo This might be beyond the scope of what you want, but I would also heartily recommend Carver Mead's Analog VSLI and Neural Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Analog-VLSI-Neural-Systems-Carver/dp/0201059924/ https://www.amazon.com/Analog-VLSI-Neural-Systems-Carver/dp/...
0x4f3759df 9y ago
Inside the Aquarium: Making of a Top Soviet Spy -Viktor Suvorov
unixhero 9y ago
This is a bit of a non answer, but there was an early MOOC delivered on this topic. I remember this was back in 2010/2011 and the topic was System Thinking. The course was delivered by a political scientist, but focused entirely on systems thinking. I will look for it and return; But for now I don't have the name of the course, or the university. I can remember is the year :). Edit: Found it; https://www.coursera.org/learn/model-thinking https://www.coursera.org/learn/model-thinking
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jeffcmohr 8y ago
There's actually a lot of great material available, here are a few of my favorites: Articles: - Introduction to Systems Thinking (https://thesystemsthinker.com/introduction-to-systems-thinking/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/introduction-to-systems-thinki...) - Tools of a Systems Thinker (https://medium.com/disruptive-design/tools-for-systems-thinkers-the-6-fundamental-concepts-of-systems-thinking-379cdac3dc6a https://medium.com/disruptive-design/tools-for-systems-think...) - The Mythical Leverage Point (https://blog.kumu.io/the-mythical-leverage-point-d582ce4b8b49 https://blog.kumu.io/the-mythical-leverage-point-d582ce4b8b4...) Videos: - Peter Senge Introduction to Systems Thinking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdzKBWDraM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdzKBWDraM) - I Used To Be A Systems Thinker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ymt_TbNNwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ymt_TbNNwE) - The (Failed) Promised of Systems Thinking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=614&v=aelqgvFXGiQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=614&v=aelqgvFXGi...) - Systems Practice Mindsets (https://vimeo.com/212281432 https://vimeo.com/212281432) Courses: - +Acumen Systems Practice Course (https://www.plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice https://www.plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice) Books: - Thinking In Systems: A Primer by Donella Meadows (https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557/ https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp...) - Fifth Discipline Fieldbook (https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Fieldbook-Strategies-Organization/dp/0385472560 https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Fieldbook-Strategies...) - Systems Thinking for Social Change (https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Social-Change-Consequences/dp/160358580X https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Social-Change-Conseq...) Articles on Leading Systems Change: - Dawn of Systems Leadership (https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_dawn_of_system_leadership https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_dawn_of_system_leadershi...) - Acting and Thinking Systemically (https://thesystemsthinker.com/acting-and-thinking-systemically/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/acting-and-thinking-systemical...) - Transforming the Systems Movement (https://thesystemsthinker.com/transforming-the-systems-movement/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/transforming-the-systems-movem...) Relevant Tools and Websites: - Kumu (https://kumu.io https://kumu.io) - Web-based tool for building interactive system maps. - The Systems Thinker (https://thesystemsthinker.com/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/) - Complete library of all "The Systems Thinker" publications over the past 30 years (Disclosure: I'm a cofounder of Kumu)

365 points by febin 9y ago

I have read Thinking in Systems by Donella Meadows, anything else?

I'd read books that contain case studies of systemic phenomena. Like books on evolution (I'd recommend those by Dawkins and Dennett) or economics (even something like the Planet Money podcast). Reading about specific cases is good for honing your intuitions about systems, which is important for being able to think in systemic terms. I don't know your background but I also think learning programming is valuable.

abhiyerra 9y ago

Science, Strategy and War covers the OODA loop which has a lot of similarities with systems thinking which I found useful in terms of orienting business and attacking problems.

notduncansmith 9y ago

Rich Hickey has some great talks on YouTube. If you are a software engineer: Build a simple database, a simple interpreter, and a simple web application (backend and frontend). Read about “distributed systems”, “devops”, “Conway’s Game Of Life”, and “fractals”. Read about these technologies/techniques (in whatever order is comfortable), how they work, their pros and cons, why they were created, how they compare to alternatives: “TCP”, “Open Sound Control”, “Plan9”, “REST”, “Lisp”, “Erlang”, “Smalltalk”, “Forth”, “Datomic”, “event sourcing”, “reactive programming”, “communicating sequential processes”, “APL”/“J”/“K”, “Ansible”, “jq”, “graph databases”, “Apache Kafka” The idea is not to become an expert in any of these, but to digest the wisdom that lies in their design and surrounding literature. Each was created after lots of careful thought by brilliant people about how to build sustainable systems.

ioddly 9y ago
Where does one get started building a simple database?
- bordercases 9y ago
  Can you develop a file format plus API that is ACID compliant in C?
  - elvinyung 9y ago
    Careful with that word ("ACID"), it's ridiculously easy to get screwed by the filesystem arbitrarily lying about things like the order of system calls: https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2801719 https://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=2801719
    - jmalicki 9y ago
      The file system does not lie, it just does not provide guarantees of ordering.
- weavie 9y ago
  I found Martin Kleppmans book - Designing Data-Intensive Applications (http://martin.kleppmann.com/ http://martin.kleppmann.com/) to be a great primer.
  - goostavos 9y ago
    An absolutely _fantastic_ book. It was also one of the scariest books I've read recently. Made me realize just how much I don't know (and don't know that I don't know!) about the failure modes of distributed systems.
  - gothy 9y ago
    This is a must read book even if you're not building a database :)
- deleted 9y ago
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- tayo42 9y ago
  Something like a kv store with a btree or sstable. https://github.com/antirez/otree https://github.com/antirez/otree simple example I think
bauerd 9y ago
Huh? I currently work with some of the technologies you mention, but fail to see the connection to systems theory. Can you elaborate why e.g. jq or Erlang are relevant here?
- bordercases 9y ago
  Most of those technologies are known for either how they handle complexity, or the coordination between asynchronous actors with shared resources
  - gaius 9y ago
    Uhhh what? jq is basically an updated sed. One input stream, one output stream, no awareness of anything else
    - joncampbelldev 9y ago
      Perhaps they meant it as a good example of the type of component to build systems out of, simple input->output. Unsure though.
    - JshWright 9y ago
      You don't see how a simple input/output streaming model would be helpful in understanding systems theory and design? There are a _lot_ of systems out there that tie together various components with tools that behave a lot like jq (or literally are jq...)
      - gaius 9y ago
        Yes this is how every Unix command line utility works. There is nothing unique about jq in this regard, and there is nothing particularly “systems thinking” about any of them. You can and people have used them for decades without doing any special “systems thinking”.
        deleted 9y ago
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blueprint 9y ago
> how to build sustainable systems Well, except for reactive programming
tazjin 9y ago
Missing the thing that has had the single biggest impact on how I personally think about programming: Learning a properly typed language (e.g. Haskell). I'd also substitute Ansible with Nix/NixOS because the conceptual takeaways are much greater there.
thinkersilver 9y ago
This is how it worked out for me. I tried to build the system myself and note the abstractions, edge case. It didn't make me an expert in all things but gave me the right questions to ask. As you do enough of these your expertise will crystallise in a particular domain. Started by building my own build system, monitoring solutions, taking at stab orchestration problems, graph databases etc. The problem statement would be super simple like how do I install my application on 100 servers? And I will start off with bash, tar, ssh and work my way up. The goal isn't too finish. You want to discover the problems first hand, decide upfront how you would evaluate an acceptable solution, attempt a naive solution, and then look at an open source system, note the family of algorithms + data structures then loop back and move onto the next set of problems in the domain. Ideally the system you're building is distributed. Mostly I work from the outside going in and counterintuitively I start with the two non-functional requirements, as questions: how fast do you want it to go, secondly how badly can the system fail. I find that I'm peculiar in this approach. This won't work for everyone. It has for me because it's allowed me to build a handy library of interrogative and evaluative heuristics and develop strong understanding system architectures and design

mch82 9y ago

What were your key takeaways from "Thinking in Systems"? What is your goal with systems thinking?

febin 9y ago
I got an idea of system thinking, but I found it difficult to understand some concepts. I simply want to get good at building great systems.

kanishkdudeja 9y ago

Paras Chopra's blog - https://invertedpassion.com/ https://invertedpassion.com/

pella 9y ago
https://invertedpassion.com/notes-from-skin-in-the-game-by-nassim-nicholas-taleb/ https://invertedpassion.com/notes-from-skin-in-the-game-by-n...

bordercases 9y ago

The box-and-arrows paradigm for systems, built in the 50s and enjoying popularity briefly in the 80s, is overrated, and has been outmoded by the likes of complexity theory. This is due to the fact that box-and-arrows systems like those made by Club of Rome to predict civilizational collapse carry strong assumptions as to the nature and structure of underlying variables and as such become very brittle as the size of the system scales. The norm is not the closed-loop circuit models that initially inspired systems thinking, but open-loop energetic models where any structural element is more like a rarified pattern than an ontological atom. The result is a discipline that has transformed into managing uncertain outcomes in large heterogeneous models, i.e. complexity theory, rather than reducing everything to balls-and-sticks. Meadows was famous for devising "12 basic places to intervene in a system", nowadays the focus is on hedging bets adequately such that interventions don't catastrophically fuck up. That said, some of the basic tooling is still flexible enough for basic business problems and some of the old gems are able to explain important concepts found in other fields without getting bogged down in the math. https://www.amazon.com/Early-Retirement-Extreme-Philosophical-Independence/dp/145360121X https://www.amazon.com/Early-Retirement-Extreme-Philosophica... is my favourite, it's not about retirement, it's about using systems thinking to devise a robust lifestyle. https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-Anniversary/dp/0932633498/ https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking... will make a good complement to Meadows and should give you a calculus to rigorously think of systems with. https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Cybernetics-W-Ross-Ashby/dp/1614277656/ https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Cybernetics-W-Ross-Ashby... for its explanation on entropy, I mean requisite diversity, which will you give you an approximate mental quantity of how "powerful" any given system is. https://www.amazon.com/Sciences-Artificial-Herbert-Simon/dp/0262691914/ https://www.amazon.com/Sciences-Artificial-Herbert-Simon/dp/... and https://www.amazon.com/Design-Rules-Vol-Power-Modularity/dp/0262024667/ https://www.amazon.com/Design-Rules-Vol-Power-Modularity/dp/... I haven't read either of these, but Herb Simon is extremely influential and has great thoughts on the notion of system hierarchies (nearly-decomposable systems is a great concept for design). The second book is about the properties of modular systems, which will help grok the reasoning behind a lot of refactoring techniques. Good luck.

llamaz 9y ago
Very interesting. Can I ask from which background you came to be interested in systems (e.g. biology or electrical engineering)?

valeg 9y ago

Thinking and Deciding by Jonathan Baron: https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Deciding-4th-Jonathan-Baron/dp/0521680433 https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Deciding-4th-Jonathan-Baron/... General System Theory by Ludwig von Bertalanffy: https://www.amazon.com/General-System-Theory-Foundations-Applications/dp/0807600156/ref=pd_sim_14_6?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0807600156&pd_rd_r=3MMXFTXX0JK37R68TKJ5&pd_rd_w=5mGuK&pd_rd_wg=b82Uw&psc=1&refRID=3MMXFTXX0JK37R68TKJ5 https://www.amazon.com/General-System-Theory-Foundations-App...

NiklasMort 9y ago

Thinking in Systems: A Primer by Donella H. Meadows (Author),‎ Diana Wright ( ISBN-10: 1603580557 ISBN-13: 978-1603580557

spodek 9y ago
This book is my top recommendation too. Also: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donella+meadows&oq=&gs_l= https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=donella+meadows... https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dennis+meadows https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dennis+meadows https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=peter+senge https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=peter+senge

fouc 9y ago

I suspect a strong background in Physics leads to systems thinking. Especially since a couple of my favourite system thinkers are Jacob Lund Fisker and Elon Musk. They both have degrees in physics.

selimthegrim 9y ago
Since when did Musk get a PhD in anything? He has a BS in physics
n4r9 9y ago
I looked up Fisker and it appears he is someone who combined personal austerity with a decent income in order to retire early. A couple of books, a blog, and several interviews, but that's literally all they're about. How are you interpreting "systems thinking"? What's the difference between "systems thinking" and "analysing and making informed decisions according to one's goals"?
- fouc 9y ago
  Honestly you'd have to read his book or some of his posts on the forum or blog to get a sense of his system thinking. I can't immediately point out any good links though, the book is a good start. It's not so much a personal finance book but about systems and models, I highly recommend it. At least you'd get the sense of what it looks like when a physicist writes a "personal finance book"

andyjohnson0 9y ago

Systemantics: How Systems Work & Especially How They Fail by John Gall. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Systemantics-Systems-Work-Especially-They/dp/0812906748 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Systemantics-Systems-Work-Especiall... The writing style is kind of unusual, but there is a lot of wisdom to be found in it.

Buttons840 9y ago
That book is half commedy, but does give some interesting things to think about. I enjoyed reading it, and have been meaning to read it again.

sz4kerto 9y ago

Read 'Domain driven design'. Read about product development and talk to non-technical product owners, CEOs, and so on. One of the major challenges in building functional systems is to understand the domain as that's what going to constrain you in the real life.

deleted 9y ago

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iovrthoughtthis 9y ago

I, actually have no idea what this really means. Does anyone have a good explanation? Systems Thinking redirects to Systems Theory on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory Is that what we're talking about?

weavie 9y ago
I am similarly confused, 'system' is a very overloaded term..
chadcmulligan 9y ago
from the book page 2: So, what is a system? A system is a set of things-people, cells, molecules, or whatever-interconnected in such a way that they produce their own pattern of behavior over time. The system may be buffeted,constricted, triggered, or driven by outside forces. But the system's response to these forces is characteristic of itself, and that response is seldom simple in the real world. Donella H. Meadows. Thinking in Systems: A Primer (Kindle Locations 89-90). Kindle Edition. This is one of the most important books I've ever read, if you want the way you think about the world to change read it. It's a very short read to.
ismail 9y ago
Yes. So it is systems theory applied in multiple domains, can be used as a framework to understand or model the world around you. See my other posts. It is a way of thinking about the world, and contrasts with traditional linear thinking. It is where interaction and interrelationships are understood to drive outcomes and behaviours of the system under study. As mentioned it is a massive field.

knbknb 9y ago

"Introduction to Agent-Based Modeling" Course. https://www.complexityexplorer.org/courses/76-introduction-to-agent-based-modeling-2017 https://www.complexityexplorer.org/courses/76-introduction-t... It is an introduction to NetLogo (a free simulation software and a Programming Language), but in hindsight I think the couse and the book teach some useful concepts.

gaius 9y ago

Step 1: get out of the habit of thinking “systems” means “computers”. People and processes (not Unix processes!) are the major components of systems in this context.

VvR-Ox 9y ago

Do object oriented programming. On the way you'll create systems of objects and with ongoing experience you'll also learn to move the abstraction layer around. I think while doing this for some time it's a little easier to think about other (real world) problems as systems and you may find parallels between software development and this real world.

soroso 9y ago

Russ Ackoff's "Ackoff's Best: His Classic Writings on Management" di Russell L. Ackoff. http://a.co/6LvRWPO http://a.co/6LvRWPO And also Ackoff's talks on Systems Thinking: https://youtu.be/EbLh7rZ3rhU https://youtu.be/EbLh7rZ3rhU

karmakaze 9y ago
Oh how I remember Ackoff. Required reading for undergrad Systems Design Eng. What is a system..., Good times

goopthink 9y ago

Overcomplicated Building Evolutionary Architecture The Checklist Manifesto The Half Life of Data How Buildings Learn I recommend looking into anything around processes or process-building/management, project management, how incentives work, and how the brain works. The natural world and the corporate world are great examples of systems in action.

ckluis 9y ago
Seconded the Checklist Manifesto.
- sokoloff 9y ago
  Checklist Manifesto is a great (and short/easy) read that I also recommend, but I don't think it's going to be especially helpful to someone looking for techniques to develop new systems thinking models. At most, it's a recounting of someone else's very specific systems work that has some unexpectedly strong outcomes from surprisingly simple drivers.
sitkack 9y ago
See also Jane Jacobs, "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_American_Cities https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_and_Life_of_Great_Am...

elvinyung 9y ago

A few cool reads in this area that are varyingly-related to software: * Architecture of Open Source Applications (http://aosabook.org/en/index.html http://aosabook.org/en/index.html): always a nice reference for brief overviews of how various OSS projects are architected. * Counterintuitive Behavior of Social Systems (https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/sloan-school-of-management/15-988-system-dynamics-self-study-fall-1998-spring-1999/readings/behavior.pdf https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/sloan-school-of-management/15-98...): primarily an argument by Jay Forrester (the "father" of system dynamics) for using computer models to test social policy changes, but also serves as a primer for how systems are complicated, and how to approach reasoning about complex systems. * A City Is Not A Tree (http://en.bp.ntu.edu.tw/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/06-Alexander-A-city-is-not-a-tree.pdf http://en.bp.ntu.edu.tw/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/06-Alexan...): ostensibly a paper about the structure of cities, but but really a deeper insight into the limits of using tree-like structures to describe systems.

dqpb 9y ago
I had never heard of "Architecture of Open Source Applications". Nice, and free online!

gibsonf1 9y ago

I highly recommend this now free book: https://www.gilb.com/p/competitive-engineering https://www.gilb.com/p/competitive-engineering A metric-based approach to systems engineering focused on continuous improvement and adding value.

jacques_chester 9y ago

I find the visibly distinct split in recommendations to be fascinating. Of the books I've read, Sterman's Business Dynamics: Systems Thinking and Modeling for a Complex World is the best all-round introduction to both the theory and practice of systems thinking. There are a lot of books and as a family of related fields, systems have historically attracted creative and iconoclastic thinkers. That can be fun, but also frustrating. I think Sterman strikes the right balance. It can be surprisingly difficult to lay your hands on a copy; Amazon tends to list 2nd-hand copies at high prices ($200+). I waited several years before seeing one on sale for $90.

EliRivers 9y ago
As an aside, I see that while amazon.com currently lists them quite highly priced right now, alibris.com can find some much cheaper versions. Second hand prices on amazon are sometimes surprisingly high, and sometimes, their new prices too - I routinely check bookdepository, wordery, booksplea.se, agreatread, thriftbooks, abebooks and alibris - each of them bests the others and Amazon frequently enough to keep checking them all. My list of sites to check is UK focused, but I expect there are US equivalents. Looks like alibris will do a copy of the book in question for a bit under 20 USD as I type, with some searching around.
- Pietertje 9y ago
  Piranhas.co does the same, though with less sites. It also includes shipping costs.
Pamar 9y ago
Abebooks lists several copies in the 20-25 USD price range though. Some even with CD-Rom... they all seem to be “International Edition” whatever this means.
- EliRivers 9y ago
  "International Edition" generally means printed significantly more cheaply, and not intended for sale within "rich countries"; generally countries where they can realistically push the expensive version. International Editions often say on them "Not for sale in the US" or some such, depending on the publisher; they sell in poorer countries at a lower price. The quality is often, in my experience, significantly lower; the paper is thinner, the ink cheaper, sometimes the alignment of the printing is a little off. Colour plates are missing or decoloured, hardbacks become softbacks, and so on. But, the words are the same, and sometimes the International Edition is actually pretty reasonable quality. I've got some that are clearly pretty shoddy, and some that you wouldn't actually know were Internationals. I suspect that sometimes publishers don't reprint it cheaply; they just stamp some of them "International Edition, not for sale in countries <x y z>" on it and ship them abroad to sell, much as some semiconductor manufacturers' cheaper chips actually come off the same line as the expensive ones, and then get tweaked (or even just labelled down). A sale is a sale.

contingencies 9y ago

I try to maintain proximity to insights I read in this space with a fortune database tailored to the area: http://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup http://github.com/globalcitizen/taoup

paraschopra 9y ago

To me, systems thinking is all about accepting that _most_ thinking that isn't physics contains interactions that wouldn't pop naturally in the mind during analysis. So the first step to thinking in systems is the acceptance that there are more interactions out there in the world than what can fit in our mind or what jumps to us through intuition. I find sketching diagrams helps. I also try to see feedback loops and bottlenecks. My recommendation would be to try breaking down systems. For example, I do that on my blog: - https://invertedpassion.com/revenue-requires-investment-profit-requires-creativity/ https://invertedpassion.com/revenue-requires-investment-prof... - https://invertedpassion.com/science-of-setting-achieving-goals/ https://invertedpassion.com/science-of-setting-achieving-goa... - https://invertedpassion.com/what-food-delivery-companies-can-learn-from-netflix/ https://invertedpassion.com/what-food-delivery-companies-can...

iovrthoughtthis 9y ago
Reminds me of Frederic Bastiat's "that which is seen and that which is not seen". http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html http://bastiat.org/en/twisatwins.html

jirir 9y ago

Perhaps this would interest only EU hackers .. but I think it’s going to be extremely interesting as a “system design/theory” problem. There is the GDPR regulation going to kick off in May 2018. Simply put it regulates how an organization has to handle personal data. And that is a huge deal. The task is: Make the organization GDPR compliant. Does anyone has a suggestion how to approach such a task from the most general “system design/theory” perspective?

ianstallings 9y ago
GDPR interests US hackers too. I'm currently working on a SAAS that helps companies manage their data privacy, with GDPR being the main driver. I can't say much about our approach just yet as we're in stealth mode still, but imho the approach should be centered around awareness of what, where, and how data is stored. That's the very first step.

chadcmulligan 9y ago

Haven't read it myself but: The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization is one I've heard a lot of systems people recommend

iovrthoughtthis 9y ago

Does this pretty much boil down to "if we poke it here, what will it do?"

ommunist 9y ago

Try to track what exactly are you doing for a month, every day, with 20-min steps, and think of your time spending budget in the end of each week with data and figures. You will be amazed how your mindset will change towards systems thinking in the end of the third month of this practice. You really will be. Be persistent, that’s the only pre-requisite and requirement for this indispensable exercise. Its origin is late Taylorian self-monitoring practice designed by Gastev in 1923, and it rocks. http://www.leanok.ru/2015/01/hronokarta-po-gastevu.html http://www.leanok.ru/2015/01/hronokarta-po-gastevu.html

HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago

I don't have any specific links, but ISTR that INCOSE has a lot of publications & recommended practices, etc. However, nothing beats working with an experienced Systems Engineer (as in: someone with a degree in Systems Engineering who has practiced it for many years) if you have the opportunity. I learned something every day working with those guys. https://www.incose.org/ProductsPublications/Papers-Presentations-library https://www.incose.org/ProductsPublications/Papers-Presentat...

donjoe 9y ago
Their 'handbook' is a great source, older versions can be found online for free: [pdf] http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/SystemsEng/SEHandbookv3_2006.pdf http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/S...

pjmorris 9y ago

Gerald Weinberg has several books on the topic [0, 1]. Dorner [2] has a short, sharp, thoughtful book on our biases in analyzing complex systems. [0] 'An Introduction to General Systems Thinking', Gerald Weinberg [1] 'General Principles of Systems Design', Gerald Weinberg [2] 'The Logic Of Failure: Recognizing And Avoiding Error In Complex Situations', Dietrich Dorner

tmaly 9y ago
I second the recommendation of Weinberg, its a classic.
grndn 9y ago
+100 "The Logic Of Failure" is a great starting point, and everything by Gerald Weinberg is worth reading.

rcarraway 9y ago

The NASA Systems Engineering Handbook is one of my favorites: https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/nasa_systems_engineering_handbook.pdf https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/nasa_sy...

kesor 9y ago

Learn by watching and reading materials released by great system thinkers. Ludwig von Bertalanffy https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_ebooks_1?text=Ludwig+von+Bertalanffy&search-alias=books&field-author=Ludwig+von+Bertalanffy https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_ebooks_1?text=Ludw... John Seddon https://youtu.be/hbNsQFd8DQw https://youtu.be/hbNsQFd8DQw https://youtu.be/kjKG011gsJ4 https://youtu.be/kjKG011gsJ4 https://youtu.be/FbmuqYRi8z4 https://youtu.be/FbmuqYRi8z4 Theory of Constraints https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2O https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2O The Goal / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KYW1L66 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KYW1L66 Necessary but Not Sufficient / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/0884271137 https://www.amazon.com/dp/0884271137 It's Not Luck / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00408ALES https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00408ALES Isn't it Obvious? / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2E https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2E Critical Chain / Eli Goldratt https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004THZ9VK https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004THZ9VK Be Fast or Be Gone / Andreas Scherer https://www.amazon.com/dp/1499660901 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1499660901 Hanging Fire / Jeff Cox https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439158932 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1439158932 Velocity / Dee Jacob https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XKX1FEO https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00XKX1FEO Epiphanized / Bob Sproull & Bruce Nelson https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0185JFYEO https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0185JFYEO Focus and Leverage / Bob Sproull & Bruce Nelson A full list of books on ToC here http://www.tocico.org/?page=toc_books http://www.tocico.org/?page=toc_books Russell L. Ackoff https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?search-alias=books&field-author=Russell+L.+Ackoff https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?search-alia... Gerald M. Weinberg https://www.amazon.com/Gerald-M.-Weinberg/e/B00459FFAC/ https://www.amazon.com/Gerald-M.-Weinberg/e/B00459FFAC/ Philip B. Crosby https://www.amazon.com/Philip-B.-Crosby/e/B001HD360A https://www.amazon.com/Philip-B.-Crosby/e/B001HD360A Peter M. Senge https://www.amazon.com/Peter-M.-Senge/e/B000AQ8R86/ https://www.amazon.com/Peter-M.-Senge/e/B000AQ8R86/ And many more, most of which are mentioned by the above in their work.

jnymck 9y ago

The book Making Things Work by Yaneer Bar-Yam

wunderlust 9y ago

The Santa Fe Institute[0] has some courses, tutorials, and publications[1] mainly, it seems, around complexity science. Complexity science isn't the same as systems theory/science, but most (all?) systems are complex so systems thinking usually necessitates some grasp of complexity. It's probably a good place to start. They also have short courses on information theory, differential equations, and such. [0] https://www.santafe.edu/ https://www.santafe.edu/ [1] https://www.santafe.edu/research/results/books https://www.santafe.edu/research/results/books

a_bonobo 9y ago

Along with Meadows' Thinking in Systems I read Mitchell's Complexity: A Guided Tour, which is just that - a reasonably superficial tour over many examples. It's a very good starting point since it's got a long bibliography.

donjoe 9y ago

If you're able to read in German I can highly recommend Haberfellner's Systems Engineering. So far I couldn't find the book translated. https://www.ofv.ch/lernmedien/detail/systems-engineering/14546/ https://www.ofv.ch/lernmedien/detail/systems-engineering/145...

ensignro2340 9y ago
That book looks promising. My German's not the greatest, but I tend to have an easier time with reading it.
- donjoe 9y ago
  In case you wanna dig really deep, check out: https://www.incose.org/ https://www.incose.org/ ... and have a look at their handbook. Older copies should be available for free online: https://www.incose.org/ProductsPublications/sehandbook https://www.incose.org/ProductsPublications/sehandbook [pdf] http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/SystemsEng/SEHandbookv3_2006.pdf http://disi.unal.edu.co/dacursci/sistemasycomputacion/docs/S...

rodolphoarruda 9y ago

Read Peter Senge's work.

nickpsecurity 9y ago

A lot of folks liked Just Enough Structured Analysis by Yourdon. Yourdon's methods date back to the 1970's with a lot of real-world application. That approach was also used in at least one high-assurance system (Tenix Data Diode). http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~sasanr/Teaching-Material/SAD/JESA.pdf http://zimmer.csufresno.edu/~sasanr/Teaching-Material/SAD/JE...

neves 9y ago

The good ole Gerald Weinberg always has wisdom to share: https://leanpub.com/generalsystemsthinking https://leanpub.com/generalsystemsthinking

poat 9y ago

In addition to reading about systems thinking, I would recommend actively practicing it. I’ve found that looking for and cataloging abstract patterns has developed my ability to recognize and reason about real-world systems. For an example of what I mean, take a look at this project: https://github.com/perspectivesonatheme/patterns https://github.com/perspectivesonatheme/patterns

la_fayette 9y ago

introduction to cybernetics. it is a great book with exercises and it is free. http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASHBBOOK.html

olfactory 9y ago

I suggest three interesting exercises: - design a QA process for a software product. How important is "blame" vs team learning? What are the tradeoffs of a blame-oriented approach vs a systems oriented approach? - build something using AWS or App Engine infrastructure that makes you have to work around the various constraints imposed by the system designers. Consider how to make a system reliable when building it using "unreliable" services. - consider a Marxist interpretation of the US legal system. I'd argue that it constitutes a reasonable systems oriented critique, and makes it clear how (at least for me) pre-existing biases made it at first seem absurd. I suggest this mainly to highlight how biases can impact systems thinking. The QA process example is also deeply emotionally charged for many engineers but should not be.

aik 9y ago

Read 'The Fifth Discipline'

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aytekin 9y ago

The Art of Thinking in Systems and The Goal are must read. https://www.amazon.com/Art-Thinking-Systems-Critically-Strategic-ebook/dp/B078YYJBXL https://www.amazon.com/Art-Thinking-Systems-Critically-Strat... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2O/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1 https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002LHRM2O/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

ismail 9y ago

The answer below assumes the following: - You are talking about the application of general systems theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_theory - You would like to learn to apply 'systems thinking' principals and analysis in many domains or to new problems - You would like to learn to model systems - It is also important to note in many domains there are specific branches of systems theory that may be more applicable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_systems_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_systems_theor... - You could spend an entire lifetime learning in this field as many have done. Types of systems: Systems can be broken down by multiple dimensions: - Complex - simple - unitary - pluralist - coercive Systems thinking approaches: - Hard systems thinking - Systems dynamics - Cybernetics - Complexity Theory - Soft Systems - Emancipatory systems thinking - Postmodern systems thinking Learning More about Systems Thinking: - A great website is the systems thinker, that covers quite a bit of topics. The articles are actually archives of a newsletter called "The systems thinker" https://thesystemsthinker.com/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/ - To get an overview of various approaches to systems thinking from an organizational perspective: Systems Thinking: Creative Holism for Managers by Michael C. Jackson. https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Creative-Holism-Managers/dp/0470845228 https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Creative-Holism-Mana... - For general systems theory: An Introduction to General Systems Thinking by Gerald M. Weinberg https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking-Anniversary/dp/0932633498 https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-General-Systems-Thinking... - For systems thinking and the learning organization: The Fifth Discipline: The Art & Practice of The Learning Organization by Peter Senge https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Organization/dp/0385517254 https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Practice-Learning-Or... - There is a great course that covers soft systems methodology, specifically to solve social problems: https://www.plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice https://www.plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice - Habits of a systems thinker: https://www.watersfoundation.org/systems-thinking-tools-and-strategies/habits-of-a-systems-thinker/ https://www.watersfoundation.org/systems-thinking-tools-and-... - Systems thinking resources: http://donellameadows.org/systems-thinking-resources/ http://donellameadows.org/systems-thinking-resources/ * Update added additional resources.

asn0 9y ago

utanapishtim 9y ago

The work of John Holland, Melanie Mitchell, Geoffrey West, most anyone at the Sante Fe Institute.

otakucode 9y ago

Honestly, play a bunch of videogames and pay attention to the mechanics and optimal play strategies. They're doing a fantastic job of giving even young children an extremely deep intuitive understanding of system thinking concepts. Stay away from twitchy multiplayer competition-based games, though, those teach nothing.

jimfk 8y ago
Some video games, like SimCity 4, can't be played well without being a systems thinker. Everything connects to everything else in the game. If you change a factor (such as a residential tax property tax rate, or the number of roads in a neighborhood) there will be cascading effects on other game factors (such as city revenues for police, or neighborhood air pollution).

beedeebeedee 9y ago

If you are interested in systems theory, I would recommend Ross Ashby's Introduction to Cybernetics. It's a short book and free to download: https://archive.org/details/introductiontocy00ashb https://archive.org/details/introductiontocy00ashb Much of the pioneering work in systems theory was done in the 1930-40's by different (but related) groups of academics in the fields of Systems Theory, Cybernetics, as well as Operational Research. Bertalanffy and Wienberg are progenitors of those fields, but I would stick to people like Ashby, who are much better writers. The work they produced is profound and laid the foundation for much of our modern academic disciplines and industrial practices. There are a lot of fascinating people and fascinating work that came out of those academic groups during that period. They are too many to list, but I would give William Grey Walter and his robotic tortoise's as an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLULRlmXkKo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLULRlmXkKo This might be beyond the scope of what you want, but I would also heartily recommend Carver Mead's Analog VSLI and Neural Systems: https://www.amazon.com/Analog-VLSI-Neural-Systems-Carver/dp/0201059924/ https://www.amazon.com/Analog-VLSI-Neural-Systems-Carver/dp/...

0x4f3759df 9y ago

Inside the Aquarium: Making of a Top Soviet Spy -Viktor Suvorov

unixhero 9y ago

This is a bit of a non answer, but there was an early MOOC delivered on this topic. I remember this was back in 2010/2011 and the topic was System Thinking. The course was delivered by a political scientist, but focused entirely on systems thinking. I will look for it and return; But for now I don't have the name of the course, or the university. I can remember is the year :). Edit: Found it; https://www.coursera.org/learn/model-thinking https://www.coursera.org/learn/model-thinking

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jeffcmohr 8y ago

There's actually a lot of great material available, here are a few of my favorites: Articles: - Introduction to Systems Thinking (https://thesystemsthinker.com/introduction-to-systems-thinking/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/introduction-to-systems-thinki...) - Tools of a Systems Thinker (https://medium.com/disruptive-design/tools-for-systems-thinkers-the-6-fundamental-concepts-of-systems-thinking-379cdac3dc6a https://medium.com/disruptive-design/tools-for-systems-think...) - The Mythical Leverage Point (https://blog.kumu.io/the-mythical-leverage-point-d582ce4b8b49 https://blog.kumu.io/the-mythical-leverage-point-d582ce4b8b4...) Videos: - Peter Senge Introduction to Systems Thinking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdzKBWDraM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXdzKBWDraM) - I Used To Be A Systems Thinker (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ymt_TbNNwE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ymt_TbNNwE) - The (Failed) Promised of Systems Thinking (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=614&v=aelqgvFXGiQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=614&v=aelqgvFXGi...) - Systems Practice Mindsets (https://vimeo.com/212281432 https://vimeo.com/212281432) Courses: - +Acumen Systems Practice Course (https://www.plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice https://www.plusacumen.org/courses/systems-practice) Books: - Thinking In Systems: A Primer by Donella Meadows (https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557/ https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp...) - Fifth Discipline Fieldbook (https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Fieldbook-Strategies-Organization/dp/0385472560 https://www.amazon.com/Fifth-Discipline-Fieldbook-Strategies...) - Systems Thinking for Social Change (https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Social-Change-Consequences/dp/160358580X https://www.amazon.com/Systems-Thinking-Social-Change-Conseq...) Articles on Leading Systems Change: - Dawn of Systems Leadership (https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_dawn_of_system_leadership https://ssir.org/articles/entry/the_dawn_of_system_leadershi...) - Acting and Thinking Systemically (https://thesystemsthinker.com/acting-and-thinking-systemically/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/acting-and-thinking-systemical...) - Transforming the Systems Movement (https://thesystemsthinker.com/transforming-the-systems-movement/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/transforming-the-systems-movem...) Relevant Tools and Websites: - Kumu (https://kumu.io https://kumu.io) - Web-based tool for building interactive system maps. - The Systems Thinker (https://thesystemsthinker.com/ https://thesystemsthinker.com/) - Complete library of all "The Systems Thinker" publications over the past 30 years (Disclosure: I'm a cofounder of Kumu)