19 ms·

Work has become a strange thing. I see people foregoing their best years stuck in an office, in the hope they can enjoy their later years. What utter nonsense.

by osrec 9y ago

Work has become a strange thing. I see people foregoing their best years stuck in an office, in the hope they can enjoy their later years. What utter nonsense. I'm not sure what the right answer is, but society has got something very wrong, as our work culture seems to surgically remove the wonder and enjoyment from our days. Hardly surprising that it drives people to ill health. Glad I broke out of that cycle a long time ago and quit my corporate job. The job was torture, quitting was scary and bumpy, but looking back it was an excellent decision.

derwiki 9y ago
Do you have a job now? If so how is it better?
- diab0lic 9y ago
  Judging from his profile he consults now: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=osrec https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=osrec
  - osrec 9y ago
    Yes, I have a consulting company now. Also starting to put together a few interesting products that my clients may be interested in.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
remar 9y ago
I'm sure you're aware of this, but a lot of people just don't have the financial freedom to even begin thinking about a decision like this, or it ends up requiring a lot of energy to make that plan viable. And as you've probably experienced, energy is not exactly abundant after a day/week/month/etc in an environment like that...
- pascalxus 9y ago
  With the right financial planning, it can be done. But, if you've already taken on 20K in student loans and 5 year cell phone contract, it's gonna be much much harder. That's why we need to start teach financial education really early: like K-12. Food and water can be quite cheap: the grocery stores are filled with healthy foods you can get for less than 1$ per lb in most of the US: corn, whole wheat flour, bananas, apples, grapes, onions, beans, rolled oats, etc. The biggest problem with living cheaply is Housing, Healthcare and Tax. for the most part these are mandated by the gov regulations to be really expensive. Once those are solved, we'll be able to live quite cost effectively. I've seen some people get around that by living in a camper van, traveling the world - not for everyone, i know. But, the tiny house movement shows us we can get a tiny house for just 20K.
  - thowawayburnout 9y ago
    People have been living trailer parks, with trailers worth far less then 20k for many years. The tiny housing movement did not show us much.
    - stuaxo 9y ago
      Nope, just that when people who are not poor live in small houses they live quite well, hardly shocking.
      - smileysteve 9y ago
        Or the opposite; tiny house permitting made it more apparent that many trailer parks have inadequate septic/sewer systems. Also see, the resurgence of Hookworm in Lowndes Al.
        mathgladiator 9y ago
        Is that more a function of density?
tzakrajs 9y ago
Please tell us more. How does the stress compare? How does the pay compare?
- eropple 9y ago
  I'm not the person you replied to, but in early 2015, after a company went down from under me three months after I started, I figured out that maybe it was a bad idea to go join another one. I've been consulting, between twenty and thirty billable hours a week, ever since. Pay: A little less. But I'm working about half the hours. I've had time to start a little side company and to work on another I'm most of the way through, as well as explore other maybe-careers (photography, videography, audio) without impacting my cash flow. I spend a little less money, but some of that is willing: I'm not at work, I don't have to pay $10 for lunch, I can make a small salad. I've had no trouble keeping up my retirement accounts. If I retire. Stress: much lighter overall, but the occasional terror-spike. Finding work is challenging, and there have been dry spots that made me very antsy, but I enjoy it, and the company I do most of my work through is good at keeping me busy without having to spend my time on sales. I'm moving in with my girlfriend, and that'll just about halve my expenses while placing me in a much more convenient/walkable area, so this should go down further. (She is sometimes a little miffed that I work so little. But I cook, and I cook pretty well, and I'm paying rent, so.) If you have an in-demand skillset, you can do very well. For me, it's devops, but it's devops informed with the way that I've done everything else in a tech group, from web and mobile to databases, so I'm not approaching it either from a sysadmin point of view or some dogmatic Agile-esque one, and I can help in a lot of ways. Also, shameless plug: i'm always willing to chat with new prospective clients. ;) Email's in my profile.
  - tzakrajs 9y ago
    Thanks for all of the detail! Your parting parenthetical is something I find myself doing to people too, but in reality maybe we all ought to work less.
- osrec 9y ago
  Stress is non-existent now (apart from worrying about family etc). Pay was 0 for the first 3 months - that was scary, but I had some savings and I had an idea I was happy to go along with. My family was against me, but eventually got on board (after a year!). Now pay is an order of magnitude larger than my best salary as an investment banker (1.5 years later). My focus is now technology - it's my passion and I'm good at it. My clients still come primarily from finance, but now have one in healthcare too. I'm also starting to put together a few products I want to sell. Trying to grow organically, with a small team. I don't really want a big team; just a small team of really high quality people that can turn their hand to any task. Overall it's been enjoyable, but the start was tricky (especially because everyone around me thought I'd fail and end up back in a similar investment banking job). It's not for everyone, but at the time, I was so unhappy within myself, that I didn't really have another option.
DeusExMachina 9y ago
I find this idea bizarre. It's like humans enjoyed their time for millennia and only now we have to work. For all human history, the conditions of people were dire. Today people might be stuck in an office in their "best year", but people in the past had to toil all day to barely scrape by and didn't even have that many years to live. It's only now that we live these comfortable lives with houses, heating, electricity, technology and a sea of information at our fingertips. These things all exist and keep functioning because people work. And yet some think that "society has gone wrong", as if the past was paradise. Work has been a human universal through history. There is surely an argument to be made about the fact that now we are so productive that we might not need to work as much as we had to. At the same time I think we should be grateful that we live in the best life conditions ever seen by humanity.
- osrec 9y ago
  I'm not saying it hasn't been prevalent for a long time, but I just think it's daft. Even if it is how it has always been, things could probably change for the better. I'm certainly grateful for the times we live in, however I see a lot of capable people let their lives pass by doing mundane jobs with little enjoyment, and worse still, little social impact. Surely we can do better than this?!
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  > For all human history, the conditions of people were dire. No. There's been societies based on slavery or indentured servitude and industrial societies treating workers much like slaves and there's been also almost idyllic, often agrarian, societies far removed from war, exploitation and hunger. Furthermore, given the incredible amount of energy and natural resources that the average person in rich countries is consuming we should all be living happy and meaningful lives and work one our per week. We should instead ask the difficult question - why are even the richest societies so unhappy?
  - jdtang13 9y ago
    In those idyllic societies that you mention, there are still teachers, senators, merchants, and diplomats who have to do work. The only people I can think of who don't do "work" in ancient history are religious monks and rich people living off of an inheritance.
dizzystar 9y ago
If you are so fortunate to only have to work a 9to5, there is no excuse to waste these years. How many musicians do you know that play in clubs? Most are working two restaurant jobs, renting a room, and scraping money together to buy strings, just for the chance to entertain a crowd for little or no pay. It's all perspective, really.
- ghettoimp 9y ago
  “Only” work 9 to 5? Don’t forget your commute. And you’ll still need your wife to get the kids to school and pick them up. Hope you earn enough for that and she’s happy st home. And you should help out with dinner and the lunches and homework. And when you get the kids to bed it’s 8 and you’re exhausted. Enjoy your weekend.
  - mathgladiator 9y ago
    I chose not to have kids. Was a great call becauses kids are like 1,000,000 each (when you factor in investment returns).
    - stephenhuey 9y ago
      The ROI for a child is priceless. :)
      - childfree 9y ago
        Because it’s zero.
      - mathgladiator 9y ago
        I got goats; I think they are a better deal. ;)
      - ionised 9y ago
        Only if you're that way inclined in the first place, which many people (and an increasing number) are not.
innocentoldguy 9y ago
I agree! I just sold my house, moved into a smaller place, and paid off all my debt. Once free of my mortgage and car payments, I was able to quit working for the ungrateful bastards who used to employ me and start making changes to my life, and the way I use of money, so I can live the remainder of my life on my own terms. I use to think wealth was having a huge amount of money. I think that point of view was wrong. Now I view wealth as having my income and outflow perfectly balanced so I can remain free of debt and corporate bondage.
rosege 9y ago
Your comment strikes a chord with me. Similar to the saying that someone reminded me of the other day, we spend huge amounts of time working to afford a house and then we are hardly ever there. I'm working on breaking out of it too - my idea is to move to somewhere with a much lower cost of living (im currently in one of the most expensive places) and then shifting to working 2-3 days per week, hopefully I can still do that for my current employer while in my spare time build up a few side gigs which I will eventually shift to.
ryanmarsh 9y ago
I feel like it’s been this way since we were cast out of eden (aka the agricultural revolution).
grecy 9y ago
I agree wholeheartedly, and just so you know, once you get out of North America (the USA especially), it's often not like this. There are millions and millions of people out there in their 20s and 30s who work part time and do whatever they want with the other time, because that provides "enough" money for the life they want to live. I personally work roughly 50% time. I work a few years, then a quit and do whatever I want for a few years. Right now I'm driving around Africa, have not gone to work since mid-2015, it's fantastic. My brother just built a house and had his first child with his wife. He works 4 days a week, looking to get down to 3. When his wife goes back to work she will work 3, maybe only two. They don't have a lot of money, but they have "enough" for the life they want and they spend a lot of time surfing, walking on the beach etc. They're both early 30s.
- retube 9y ago
  > They don't have a lot of money, but they have "enough" for the life they want and they spend a lot of time surfing Right. and what happens when they get old? how will they ever be able to retire?
  - stagbeetle 9y ago
    Are you asking this as someone who's already in retirement, enjoying what's left of the simple pleasures or are you still working like the typical American and planning for retirement? It's sort of like most people turning their noses when someone (used to; now it's different) said they were starting a business: "Oh, well what happens when you fail and can't get a job? How will you ever be able to live then?" People find a way and it sounds like the people the poster was referencing, know themselves well enough to make their decisions. While on the other hand, comparing people to the "norm" many times comes from someone who doesn't know themselves and their wants well (or ignores them), and uses the norm as their gauge for "success," or what have you. For a subset of people, retirement isn't something they want or even need. One of the sentiments I hear often from those still working in older age, "What, retire? Now? I've been working my entire life, what the hell am I gonna do in retirement besides die?" or "60 years of doing shit I didn't want, so I could enjoy 15 doing only the things my body allows now." Life's short. If you want to do things, do them. The only reason you don't is because you live in fear. There will always be drawbacks to going against the status quo, but that's the price you pay to get what you want.
ILikeConemowk 9y ago
>The job was torture, quitting was scary and bumpy, but looking back it was an excellent decision. Can you share your story? How did you make it?
- osrec 9y ago
  Sure. I always wanted my own business as I saw it as a route to mental and financial freedom. I was under no false impressions of the difficulty involved as I've seen my family struggle (and prosper) while running their own businesses. Anyway, I started by building a little product on the side whilst working. I sold the product to a few hedge funds and investment bank divisions that I could get into via my contacts (both from university and work). That little product turned into this: https://osrec.co.uk/products/heavymetl https://osrec.co.uk/products/heavymetl and provides good recurring income. I then put together a SaaS product for bookkeeping/accounting/invoicing: https://usebx.com/app https://usebx.com/app . It was rather well received, and we even got a few corporate clients to sign up. We're working on version 2, which I think will be even better! We tend to pick up customers that have become irritated by quickbooks/Xero/Sage. Then there's the consulting piece, which is ongoing. We basically help institutions get out of sticky tech situations that your average developer might struggle with without specific financial regulation knowledge. E.g. helping an investment bank prove that their implementation of a data store for financial greeks is in accordance with BCBS239. Not easy to do unless you know the regs, and can suggest ways in which they can become compliant if they are not. Random tips that I picked up along the way: - Tenacity and passion are important - A healthy bank balance is important, primarily to keep anxiety away - Don't ever appear desperate for business. Big turn off for a client. - A well defined product sells better than a poorly defined one - A good product sells better than a bad one (i.e. don't believe the ship rubbish early mantra - it does have its place, however, if you are going into a mature market, users want something good and reliable first time or they bail) - Build things often and well. Don't be lazy with quality control. Have the guts to build without a framework! It can really bolster your technical prowess. - Be nice to people. A friendly interaction has often turned into business. - Be assertive with difficult clients. Often this applies to the non-techy clients that come out with sarcastic remarks such as "you charged us £50k for pressing a few buttons. Why can't we have XYZ as well as ABC?" or "I thought this was included in the original contract?". Make it clear to them that if they don't see the value in the service or can't deal straightforwardly, then we don't need them as a client. They soon come around, when they have to go back to their manual error-prone ways. So that's it, in a nutshell! Sorry if I rambled. All the best :)
unalloy 9y ago
What do you do now?

by osrec 9y ago

derwiki 9y ago

Do you have a job now? If so how is it better?

diab0lic 9y ago
Judging from his profile he consults now: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=osrec https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=osrec
- osrec 9y ago
  Yes, I have a consulting company now. Also starting to put together a few interesting products that my clients may be interested in.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]

remar 9y ago

I'm sure you're aware of this, but a lot of people just don't have the financial freedom to even begin thinking about a decision like this, or it ends up requiring a lot of energy to make that plan viable. And as you've probably experienced, energy is not exactly abundant after a day/week/month/etc in an environment like that...

pascalxus 9y ago
With the right financial planning, it can be done. But, if you've already taken on 20K in student loans and 5 year cell phone contract, it's gonna be much much harder. That's why we need to start teach financial education really early: like K-12. Food and water can be quite cheap: the grocery stores are filled with healthy foods you can get for less than 1$ per lb in most of the US: corn, whole wheat flour, bananas, apples, grapes, onions, beans, rolled oats, etc. The biggest problem with living cheaply is Housing, Healthcare and Tax. for the most part these are mandated by the gov regulations to be really expensive. Once those are solved, we'll be able to live quite cost effectively. I've seen some people get around that by living in a camper van, traveling the world - not for everyone, i know. But, the tiny house movement shows us we can get a tiny house for just 20K.
- thowawayburnout 9y ago
  People have been living trailer parks, with trailers worth far less then 20k for many years. The tiny housing movement did not show us much.
  - stuaxo 9y ago
    Nope, just that when people who are not poor live in small houses they live quite well, hardly shocking.
    - smileysteve 9y ago
      Or the opposite; tiny house permitting made it more apparent that many trailer parks have inadequate septic/sewer systems. Also see, the resurgence of Hookworm in Lowndes Al.
      - mathgladiator 9y ago
        Is that more a function of density?

tzakrajs 9y ago

Please tell us more. How does the stress compare? How does the pay compare?

eropple 9y ago
I'm not the person you replied to, but in early 2015, after a company went down from under me three months after I started, I figured out that maybe it was a bad idea to go join another one. I've been consulting, between twenty and thirty billable hours a week, ever since. Pay: A little less. But I'm working about half the hours. I've had time to start a little side company and to work on another I'm most of the way through, as well as explore other maybe-careers (photography, videography, audio) without impacting my cash flow. I spend a little less money, but some of that is willing: I'm not at work, I don't have to pay $10 for lunch, I can make a small salad. I've had no trouble keeping up my retirement accounts. If I retire. Stress: much lighter overall, but the occasional terror-spike. Finding work is challenging, and there have been dry spots that made me very antsy, but I enjoy it, and the company I do most of my work through is good at keeping me busy without having to spend my time on sales. I'm moving in with my girlfriend, and that'll just about halve my expenses while placing me in a much more convenient/walkable area, so this should go down further. (She is sometimes a little miffed that I work so little. But I cook, and I cook pretty well, and I'm paying rent, so.) If you have an in-demand skillset, you can do very well. For me, it's devops, but it's devops informed with the way that I've done everything else in a tech group, from web and mobile to databases, so I'm not approaching it either from a sysadmin point of view or some dogmatic Agile-esque one, and I can help in a lot of ways. Also, shameless plug: i'm always willing to chat with new prospective clients. ;) Email's in my profile.
- tzakrajs 9y ago
  Thanks for all of the detail! Your parting parenthetical is something I find myself doing to people too, but in reality maybe we all ought to work less.
osrec 9y ago
Stress is non-existent now (apart from worrying about family etc). Pay was 0 for the first 3 months - that was scary, but I had some savings and I had an idea I was happy to go along with. My family was against me, but eventually got on board (after a year!). Now pay is an order of magnitude larger than my best salary as an investment banker (1.5 years later). My focus is now technology - it's my passion and I'm good at it. My clients still come primarily from finance, but now have one in healthcare too. I'm also starting to put together a few products I want to sell. Trying to grow organically, with a small team. I don't really want a big team; just a small team of really high quality people that can turn their hand to any task. Overall it's been enjoyable, but the start was tricky (especially because everyone around me thought I'd fail and end up back in a similar investment banking job). It's not for everyone, but at the time, I was so unhappy within myself, that I didn't really have another option.

DeusExMachina 9y ago

I find this idea bizarre. It's like humans enjoyed their time for millennia and only now we have to work. For all human history, the conditions of people were dire. Today people might be stuck in an office in their "best year", but people in the past had to toil all day to barely scrape by and didn't even have that many years to live. It's only now that we live these comfortable lives with houses, heating, electricity, technology and a sea of information at our fingertips. These things all exist and keep functioning because people work. And yet some think that "society has gone wrong", as if the past was paradise. Work has been a human universal through history. There is surely an argument to be made about the fact that now we are so productive that we might not need to work as much as we had to. At the same time I think we should be grateful that we live in the best life conditions ever seen by humanity.

osrec 9y ago
I'm not saying it hasn't been prevalent for a long time, but I just think it's daft. Even if it is how it has always been, things could probably change for the better. I'm certainly grateful for the times we live in, however I see a lot of capable people let their lives pass by doing mundane jobs with little enjoyment, and worse still, little social impact. Surely we can do better than this?!
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
> For all human history, the conditions of people were dire. No. There's been societies based on slavery or indentured servitude and industrial societies treating workers much like slaves and there's been also almost idyllic, often agrarian, societies far removed from war, exploitation and hunger. Furthermore, given the incredible amount of energy and natural resources that the average person in rich countries is consuming we should all be living happy and meaningful lives and work one our per week. We should instead ask the difficult question - why are even the richest societies so unhappy?
- jdtang13 9y ago
  In those idyllic societies that you mention, there are still teachers, senators, merchants, and diplomats who have to do work. The only people I can think of who don't do "work" in ancient history are religious monks and rich people living off of an inheritance.

dizzystar 9y ago

If you are so fortunate to only have to work a 9to5, there is no excuse to waste these years. How many musicians do you know that play in clubs? Most are working two restaurant jobs, renting a room, and scraping money together to buy strings, just for the chance to entertain a crowd for little or no pay. It's all perspective, really.

ghettoimp 9y ago
“Only” work 9 to 5? Don’t forget your commute. And you’ll still need your wife to get the kids to school and pick them up. Hope you earn enough for that and she’s happy st home. And you should help out with dinner and the lunches and homework. And when you get the kids to bed it’s 8 and you’re exhausted. Enjoy your weekend.
- mathgladiator 9y ago
  I chose not to have kids. Was a great call becauses kids are like 1,000,000 each (when you factor in investment returns).
  - stephenhuey 9y ago
    The ROI for a child is priceless. :)
    - childfree 9y ago
      Because it’s zero.
    - mathgladiator 9y ago
      I got goats; I think they are a better deal. ;)
    - ionised 9y ago
      Only if you're that way inclined in the first place, which many people (and an increasing number) are not.

innocentoldguy 9y ago

I agree! I just sold my house, moved into a smaller place, and paid off all my debt. Once free of my mortgage and car payments, I was able to quit working for the ungrateful bastards who used to employ me and start making changes to my life, and the way I use of money, so I can live the remainder of my life on my own terms. I use to think wealth was having a huge amount of money. I think that point of view was wrong. Now I view wealth as having my income and outflow perfectly balanced so I can remain free of debt and corporate bondage.

rosege 9y ago

Your comment strikes a chord with me. Similar to the saying that someone reminded me of the other day, we spend huge amounts of time working to afford a house and then we are hardly ever there. I'm working on breaking out of it too - my idea is to move to somewhere with a much lower cost of living (im currently in one of the most expensive places) and then shifting to working 2-3 days per week, hopefully I can still do that for my current employer while in my spare time build up a few side gigs which I will eventually shift to.

ryanmarsh 9y ago

I feel like it’s been this way since we were cast out of eden (aka the agricultural revolution).

grecy 9y ago

I agree wholeheartedly, and just so you know, once you get out of North America (the USA especially), it's often not like this. There are millions and millions of people out there in their 20s and 30s who work part time and do whatever they want with the other time, because that provides "enough" money for the life they want to live. I personally work roughly 50% time. I work a few years, then a quit and do whatever I want for a few years. Right now I'm driving around Africa, have not gone to work since mid-2015, it's fantastic. My brother just built a house and had his first child with his wife. He works 4 days a week, looking to get down to 3. When his wife goes back to work she will work 3, maybe only two. They don't have a lot of money, but they have "enough" for the life they want and they spend a lot of time surfing, walking on the beach etc. They're both early 30s.

retube 9y ago
> They don't have a lot of money, but they have "enough" for the life they want and they spend a lot of time surfing Right. and what happens when they get old? how will they ever be able to retire?
- stagbeetle 9y ago
  Are you asking this as someone who's already in retirement, enjoying what's left of the simple pleasures or are you still working like the typical American and planning for retirement? It's sort of like most people turning their noses when someone (used to; now it's different) said they were starting a business: "Oh, well what happens when you fail and can't get a job? How will you ever be able to live then?" People find a way and it sounds like the people the poster was referencing, know themselves well enough to make their decisions. While on the other hand, comparing people to the "norm" many times comes from someone who doesn't know themselves and their wants well (or ignores them), and uses the norm as their gauge for "success," or what have you. For a subset of people, retirement isn't something they want or even need. One of the sentiments I hear often from those still working in older age, "What, retire? Now? I've been working my entire life, what the hell am I gonna do in retirement besides die?" or "60 years of doing shit I didn't want, so I could enjoy 15 doing only the things my body allows now." Life's short. If you want to do things, do them. The only reason you don't is because you live in fear. There will always be drawbacks to going against the status quo, but that's the price you pay to get what you want.

ILikeConemowk 9y ago

>The job was torture, quitting was scary and bumpy, but looking back it was an excellent decision. Can you share your story? How did you make it?

osrec 9y ago
Sure. I always wanted my own business as I saw it as a route to mental and financial freedom. I was under no false impressions of the difficulty involved as I've seen my family struggle (and prosper) while running their own businesses. Anyway, I started by building a little product on the side whilst working. I sold the product to a few hedge funds and investment bank divisions that I could get into via my contacts (both from university and work). That little product turned into this: https://osrec.co.uk/products/heavymetl https://osrec.co.uk/products/heavymetl and provides good recurring income. I then put together a SaaS product for bookkeeping/accounting/invoicing: https://usebx.com/app https://usebx.com/app . It was rather well received, and we even got a few corporate clients to sign up. We're working on version 2, which I think will be even better! We tend to pick up customers that have become irritated by quickbooks/Xero/Sage. Then there's the consulting piece, which is ongoing. We basically help institutions get out of sticky tech situations that your average developer might struggle with without specific financial regulation knowledge. E.g. helping an investment bank prove that their implementation of a data store for financial greeks is in accordance with BCBS239. Not easy to do unless you know the regs, and can suggest ways in which they can become compliant if they are not. Random tips that I picked up along the way: - Tenacity and passion are important - A healthy bank balance is important, primarily to keep anxiety away - Don't ever appear desperate for business. Big turn off for a client. - A well defined product sells better than a poorly defined one - A good product sells better than a bad one (i.e. don't believe the ship rubbish early mantra - it does have its place, however, if you are going into a mature market, users want something good and reliable first time or they bail) - Build things often and well. Don't be lazy with quality control. Have the guts to build without a framework! It can really bolster your technical prowess. - Be nice to people. A friendly interaction has often turned into business. - Be assertive with difficult clients. Often this applies to the non-techy clients that come out with sarcastic remarks such as "you charged us £50k for pressing a few buttons. Why can't we have XYZ as well as ABC?" or "I thought this was included in the original contract?". Make it clear to them that if they don't see the value in the service or can't deal straightforwardly, then we don't need them as a client. They soon come around, when they have to go back to their manual error-prone ways. So that's it, in a nutshell! Sorry if I rambled. All the best :)

unalloy 9y ago

What do you do now?