12 ms·

Craigslist Censored: Adult Section Comes Down

78 points by jswinghammer 16y ago

ck2 16y ago
Congrats on CL on finally taking the high road without being legally forced to first. Claiming that it should be okay to do something questionable because everyone else does it is never the right attitude. Prostitution ads should not be right next to ads for cars, even if others do it. Those that claim how many illegal things would be better if legalized and regulated are naive.
- bmelton 16y ago
  The points have been discussed so often elsewhere in this thread, but I just wanted to point out that, for me at least, this is very much the low road. Bowing down to socio-political pressure without being demanded to, for a service that is very clearly popular and (I believe) ought to be legal is, in my opinion, spineless. I understand that their heart is in the right place, and I'm very understanding that their belief system may not match my own, so I applaud them for doing what they feel is right... but that is all that I can applaud them for.
  - ck2 16y ago
    The problem is prostitution is not victimless crime like most men want to believe. No-one can possibly believe someone wants to be a prostitute. Not only are some girls forced into it by pimps and syndicate hooking them on drugs to guarantee their "employment", even if others just enter into it out of desperation for quick cash, once you are down that path it can screw up your life forever. So yeah, condoning it and promoting it and making it easily available on sites like CL has to be prevented for the better of society over the desire of men to have effortlessly accessible sex. I consider that taking the high road, thinking of others before yourself. I'm under no delusion that it's going to drop even 1% with CL's listings gone, but it's still the right thing to do.
- toto 16y ago
  Cars kills every minute, the car section should be shut down!
jsz0 16y ago
I bet most of the people freaking out about CL's adult services haven't considered that censorship usually leads to an increased demand. They're doing an excellent job advertising to the world that you can easily buy sex online. If they really wanted to help people they'd be advocating a safe highly regulated adult services industry that satisfies the demand while eliminating most of the ugly side effects of prohibition. They completely reject this idea so it seems obvious to me their agenda is more about moral pontificating than helping people or they truly have no understanding of how the real world works.
- danilocampos 16y ago
  It's much easier to shoot the messenger than solve the problem. It's all posturing.
- bluedanieru 16y ago
  It's both, they have no understanding how the real world works, and so they think they are doing everyone a favor with their agenda. And they have neither the desire nor the ability to change.
- qq66 16y ago
  In this case, censorship does not lead to increased demand. In prostitution, demand is fairly constant, and supply is what is usually affected by legalization. Legalization tends to increase supply (women willing to engage in prostitution), which has the effect of increasing the number of prostitutes, making their jobs safer, and lowering prices (there is an risk premium embedded in prostitute pricing in countries where prostitution is illegal).
- jordanb 16y ago
  The Cook County (Chicago) Sheriff, Tom Dart, has been leading the charge on this. The Tribune had an article a few days ago about him increasing prostitution busts, and putting up ads around O'Hare warning johns to stay away. With all this moral outrage coming out of him about prostitution, I'm expecting that he'll soon be arrested in a prostitution bust. Anti-prostitution groups always drag out trafficking as a reason to be against prostitution, and also child prostitution. But being a prostitute or being a john are both misdemeanor offences, whereas trafficking and sexual child abuse are both very serious felony charges. It seems to me that anti-trafficking and child sexual abuse laws are a lot more effective in dealing with those problems than general anti-prostitution laws are. The argument about trafficking really rings hollow. These busts mostly target the prostitutes. If they really wanted to find trafficking victims, they'd get a lot better luck approaching women not in the context of arresting them, and asking them about their situation. Throwing women against the police car and slapping handcuffs on them seems counterproductive if your goal is to limit trafficking. If anything, it reinforces everything the traffickers tell the women about the police, making them less likely to cooperate. If a women is not a victim of sex slavery or underage, it seems absurd that she could be charged with a crime for selling something she can legally give away for free.
derefr 16y ago
In case you're wondering: this only affects Craigslist users in the U.S. It's fine here in Canada, for example.
- raganwald 16y ago
  I am struggling with the notion of a country that will defend to the death the rights of its citizens to purchase guns and use hateful speech, but simultaneously attack sex with such fundamentalist zeal. I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance.
  - TGJ 16y ago
    The country defends the right to speech, whether you are hateful with it or not is your choice. The country defends the right of guns to remind the government that the population is armed and willing to stand up to oppressive regimes. Proliferation of sex outside of the family unit, destroys the family unit. Seems straight forward to me.
    - raganwald 16y ago
      You are simply repeating what I said. Of course I understand that you do not allow the govt. to pass laws restricting speech, and of course you allow and even celebrate hateful speech. And yes, you dearly cherish the quaint notion of an armed rebellion: That's how you were founded. But nothing you have said explains why your laws celebrate freedom for the first two cases: You trust citizens with the right to speak and the right to manage their own deadly weapons, but in the third case you are suddenly "You can't be trusted to make your own choices." Thus, I find your answer is a non-answer, because it does not explain the dichotomy. Furthermore, your third point confuses me. Are you saying that it is an American value to avoid sex before or outside of a marriage conducted for the purpose of raising children?
    - derefr 16y ago
      Why does the government care about defending "the family unit?" That's not its job.
kingkawn 16y ago
no, its just located here now: http://newyork.craigslist.org/thp/ http://newyork.craigslist.org/thp/
anaphoric 16y ago
I used to know Jim Buckmaster, the CEO of CL back in the day in Ann Arbor. He dated my sister for several years. Any ways Jim is a really smart and together guy, and I would suspect in his heart that he takes a pretty dim view of people who shop for sex. At the same time I know him to be a person of principle and I suspect those principles are some type of Chomskyan libertarianism. BTW I wonder what Chomsky would say w.r.t. this controversy. Clearly you have two opposing principles. One is free speech, the other is something that most feel is inherently exploitative and should be minimized. Any ways, I suspect that CL gets more heat because they go against the grain of common corporate culture. Like I said, Jim is a man of principle.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Chomskyan libertarianism? I'm not very familiar with Chomsky, but as I recall he has opposed freedom of speech, freedom of contract (for low skill workers), and favors taking wealth from some and giving to others by force. Wikipedia describes him as a socialist. That sounds like the exact opposite of libertarianism to me. Could you explain what you mean by the term?
  - anaphoric 16y ago
    Sorry, you are right. I misspoke. He rather has 'anarchist' leanings. He is against "systems of domination without justification". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G6kf7XM9Nk Chomsky has a complex position that defies quick labels. I think his analysis of the system is pretty accurate, but, of course I don't really see him as having presented any type of workable solution/alternative. But what brilliant analysis and critique!
  - steveklabnik 16y ago
    Chomsky is a 'libertarian socialist', which is very different than Socialism. See the giant thread here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1653063 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1653063
ErrantX 16y ago
I never thought TC would ever come up with a quote worth, uh, quoting, but pigs are in flight today! If it’s just a sex crime it isn’t a story. But if a listing on Craigslist was involved, it’s a big story. Painfully true. It's all bullshit as well, this "OMG Sex crimes" nonsense. We investigate sex crimes (i.e. rape, abuse, murder etc.) caused by the internet - literally none of them (and I am well above 60 investigations in that area now) have anything to do with personal ads such as the ones censored here. I might be out on a limb here because a) this is based on only a small amount of empirical evidence and b) I've not talked to colleagues to get their take on it, but, most of the internet derived sex crime comes from the "under the radar" sleazy dating sites or, more likely, simply someone they managed to get on MSN. These people prey on those looking for a boyfriend, not someone looking to sell sex. Prostitutes are, for the most part, not stupid - they know when to take a deal or walk away. I can't help feeling crusades such as this are actually harmful. </rant>
korch 16y ago
The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. —Abraham Lincoln First, the only question that truly matters: Cui Bono? What industry made ~40% of their revenues from classified listings within the last decade? What industry has been slyly running hooker ads and profiting off prostitution for decades? What industry has been anti-Internet from the start? What industry has been running sensationalist, sexed-up hit-pieces scaring the public about rampant crime on Craigslist for several years? And more importantly in the grand-scheme of things, from a level way above mere prostitution: What hypocritical industry has been utterly incapable of understanding that the core tenet of online freedom of speech is intimately connected to the availability of online, open forums where anyone can say anything in an anonymous, online public space that is protected under the first amendment? Newspapers. And it's funny because no newspaper editor will ever let what I just said ever see print, as this tempest in a teapot about the world's oldest profession continues to simmer. Remember, it's an election year, so all these AGs who have been turning a blind eye to prostitution for decades now have the perfect political opportunity to play the morality police handed to them on a silver platter: It has taken years to trend, but the MSM has slowly pumped up a moral crusade around Craigslist. Gee, isn't that convenient for them? Now they just want to hand off the ball to the state AGs. Then the AGs get to grand-stand from their corrupt moral soapboxes, which helps their political base, and the newspapers get to reclaim ~30% of Craigslist's revenue. Ahh, the circle of Life, ain't it beautiful! You don't see Backpage, the 2nd largest site for the exact same adult classified ads being targeted at all now do you? Who owns Backpage? Why it's the Village Voice media corp, who has deep pockets, a long history, and many friends in high places. Craig's biggest personal mistake was not doing what Google had to do a few years ago, what Microsoft learned to do in the 90's during the antitrust trial, and what countless other tech companies insulated in their Silicon Valley tech bubble all have eventually had to do: send one hundred or more paid lobbyists to DC. Who has been public enemy #1 of the newspapers and their media conglomerates? Who has almost single-handedly caused the entire newspaper industry to cave in on itself in just a decade? Craigslist What we're seeing here is just business as usual from the Great Houses of yellow journalism. AND NOW FOR A RANT! :) /rant I know a thing or two about a thing or two in this particular niche of the classified industry, since once upon a time long ago I worked a very brief & desperate stint coding at some unnamed company in the adult classified biz. It's not at all what the general public thinks it is. It's a lot more organized, practical and intentional in subtle ways most people don't realize, while the sexy, titillating parts that you see Faux News and CNN play are not nearly as exciting in reality. I don't pass any judgment on it—it's called the oldest profession for a reason. We're all mammals after all, what's wrong with that? In fact, I think it should be completely legal, across the board, and regulated by the health industry just like in Europe and most of the rest of the world. Too many Americans are completely stupid in their expectations about what they think would happen if it were legal. It's exactly like with America's idiotic, failed War on Some Drugs and alcohol Prohibition. Make it illegal, no it doesn't stop, since any attempt to legislate the most basic and natural of all human behaviors is futile! Prohibition only makes it worse in fact, as it just empowers organized crime to take over. Who do you think is trafficking little kids for this? Who is keeping the modern day equivalent of female slaves? Who has international shipping networks to even do those kind of logistics? Who is committing 99% of the violence in an industry of "victimless crime"? Who is tying this illegal industry to others, like drug or arms trafficking, in order to capitalize on economies of scale? Not some 12 year old girl from some Asian country. And not John Smith who has been in a sexless marriage for 20 years. And it's not Corner Pimp Moe who still lives with his mother since he just got out of jail for a petty misdemeanor. No, it's the organized criminals and corporations pulling the strings in high places in America who only exist because our gov't has setup a system of (in)justice that enables them to operate. And a massive amount of our tax dollars are wasted in law enforcement of this industry. There's a massive opportunity cost behind it—just remember, every hooker busted and given the average penalty of a $200 ticket with no jail time is one less robber, murderer, rapist, you name it, who is caught and taken off the streets by the cops. Not to mention that the cops don't really want to enforce prohibition, since they could care less about being the morality police, and they know they have a snowball's chance in hell of stopping basic mammalian reproduction, so they are already doing it half-assed. It's kind of like the military study where they found that 60% of soldiers on the battle fields were intentionally aiming high during Vietnam to miss their human targets—such is the subconscious social fear of hurting other human beings! We need our cops to be effective and trusted by society, not the opposite! So why are we setting up a judicial system that sets the cops up for failure? And don't even get me started on the Feminist angle on all of this. I'll just say that I know of nothing else in society than making it illegal that has done more to exploit, injure and permanently disadvantage countless innocent women than the entire legal and social apparatus setup for prohibition. Most of these women have tough lives, tough backgrounds, they have fallen through the cracks in education and our social system, and they are single moms getting by in a decimated economy. That's not exactly what I picture when I imagine criminals. But here in America we can't treat people at the bottom of our social order in a decent, Christian way. As a society, what is our solution to this so-called problem? We add another layer of victimization on these innocent women who are already victimized! America is shameful in how always treats its least well-off citizens. Yes, I blame the hypocritical religious fundies who's modus operandi is to scare folks into the pews on Sundays, and who have apparently forgotten the level of forgiveness and tolerance which Jesus himself showed to prostitutes. Ultimately it's due to America's historic, unchangeable bedrock of Puritan culture. Even though America practically invented porn, culturally, we have a completely backwards view towards human sexuality and behavior, compared to the rest of the modernized world, who laughs at us. Ooh, the answer, I know, I know, let's criminalize it! As for the consequences of legality, no, all marriages and relationships would not be doomed as everyone switches to hookers. In fact, the opposite would probably happen: the price would drop(you have no idea how much of the money is wasted on jumping through hoops to keep safe from organized crime and Johnny Law), and the labor supply would go up a little bit. But the social stigma would remain, and this is the important part. Since humans are entirely social creatures, legalization would probably have the completely counter-intuitive effect of making relationships better across society, since if sex is made nearly valueless, rather than equivalent to what a top attorney would bill you per hour, then the social shame aspect is suddenly bumped to the top of the list of concerns. Since you don't have to worry about being associated with illegality, slavery, crime, etc. And we all know that shaming within social groups is the most effective way to alter and control human behavior—even more so than relying on prison or economics to do it. QED.
patio11 16y ago
I hear quite often that prostitution would be a wonderfully pleasant industry if it were only legal, which does not square with the experiences of countries where it is legal or tolerated. You pretty much have to be running schoolgirls out of homeroom to get the Nagoya police to so much as glance in your direction, but Japanese prostitution is a very, very ugly place to be, and much of it is based on trafficking. I live two hundred feet from a "Korean aesthetic salon" which is open at three A.M. in the morning. One of the not-so-young ladies who works there has taken to sleeping on the bus bench across the street recently, in heat which has nearly sent me to the hospital twice. You may have heard that Japan has a storied relationship with its Korean immigrants. Those who do -- to use a nauseating euphemism -- the jobs Japanese girls won't do can expect neglect from polite society, because polite society knows that inquiring into her circumstances means they have to know what goes on in those walls, and they are very interested in keeping up the fiction that they do not know what goes on in those walls. Or take the European experience. Amsterdam, city of lights, so much more sophisticated than the American puritans, perfectly legal thriving sex trade, right? It has been taken over by Russian mafia who are undercutting the locals via use of trafficked girls from Eastern Europe. You always have the option as a merchant of sex slaves to one-up what the "morally upright prostitutes" allow, safe in the knowledge that they will cover for you because an investigation into what you are doing harms their business interests. Society, meanwhile, has no great desire to actually police what happens inside of brothels, preferring to believe its sanity-saving fictions like "she wants to be there", "it is just sex between two consenting adults", and "no slaves live on my block." http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/world/europe/24amsterdam.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/world/europe/24amsterdam.h... Prostitution, legal or otherwise, is not pretty. It is based, root and branch, on exploitation. To the extent you think that legalizing it will end the exploitation, you believe something which is contrary to reality.
- weeksie 16y ago
  Don't paint every country with the same brush. In Australia it's legal and regulated. Sure, there are dodgy brothels (usually the asian ones) but the normal ones are mostly college girls who are earning a bunch of extra cash.
jfager 16y ago
This seems a bit petulant to me. There is real, substantive criticism of how CL handles adult ads independent of grandstanding politicians, hand-wringing moralists, and sensationalist media. These groups are always going to be flinging shit around; why dignify them by pretending to be their victim? And why refuse to acknowledge the legitimate issues that are raised? CL has said nothing in response to critics who have pointed out that independent research groups have been able to place ads that contradict CL's stated policies, or that relevant authorities have said they've received few to no reports of suspicious activity from CL. Refusing to acknowledge these problems, and instead focusing on the misdeeds or weakest arguments of their most sensational critics, undermines CL's credibility quite a bit. And if you are going to shut the section down on your own, just do it. You don't get any pity for claiming you've been censored when there's been no actual legal pressure applied. You haven't been censored, you just caved.
toto 16y ago
People believing that the prostitution issue will be solved through craigslist section shut down, should learn what 5 whys root cause analysis is... This sounds like first level solution, what about the other ones? Emotional topic. Difficult (half)-solutions.
drblast 16y ago
I can't understand the motivations for this. Several state attorney generals find out there is are people going to a web site, and for all intents and purposes advertising they are going to commit criminal acts. The public is outraged. A rational person whose job is to enforce the law at this point would be dancing in happy circles, because the criminals are not only advertising their crimes, they're doing it in a single, easily searchable location. This makes his job much easier than it was before. So what does this person do in order to score political points with the outraged public? Arrest all these people in sting operations? No. He gets the site shut down. Out of sight, out of mind. And the public is happy about that. For the life of me I can't understand why people do the things they do and feel justified about it. Prostitution is either so bad that it should be illegal and those laws enforced, or it shouldn't be illegal at all because all that does is create problems. There is no middle ground here.
mysterymilfinri 16y ago
Ironically even though Craigslist just about crippled the newspaper industry, these same newspapers have been running adult ads in the personal sections, in every major cities for years, ad how about the good old yelow pages that the escort services use to pay 15,000 a year to appear in. The problem is this, LE is going to keep using CL as an escape goat, while they have no real interest in catching pimps expoiting teens, they want to STALK MIDDLE AGE CONSENTING ADULTS IN PRIVATE, because of their moral witch hunt. We have street hookers in every city, they don't seem to concerned about them. On top of the sex worker being criminalized LE often calls her employer and landlord when they arrest her, its like being the victim of a hate crime, where you hated just because you exisit. We are not given the same sancation and protection under the law as everyne else, and they even wish us harm. Why are we such a threat, it seems if they went after the predators and pimps with the same ZEST that they go after these consenting adults, we might live in a nicer world. Also lets look at LE behavior, follow this newsfeed http://theproviderpage.com/news/TheProviderPage-News.php http://theproviderpage.com/news/TheProviderPage-News.php Here you will see how the chief of police was handing out crack to street hookers and then expoitig them for sex in lue of going to jail and the 2 cops while arresting a women on a online sting, they took pics of her naked with their personal cell phones while she cried and begged to get dressed as they laughed at her. All sex workers are expoited, by their own persona plight, poverty, and how does society really think we will be safer if we become homeless and live on the street, don't you think we would be raped and become a target for violence because we have no shelter/safety. None of these MORAL People who want to save us from ourselves are creating any services or safety for these women. I just wonder why society seems to think its ok to treat a hooker anyway and that she gets what she deserves, she could easily be your mother, sister, aunt or child. Don't be so naive that you think this would never affect someone you know. The internet gave me the abilty to find safer, higher paying clients, that I see on my terms, without needing an agency to give half my money too. I can choose to see just 1 or 2 clients a day and am putting my daugter through college as a single mom. I am also creating http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ which I am creating to support my peers. Thanks for listening to my rant.
mysterymilfinri 16y ago
See us at http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ While we oppose society's Moral Witch Hunt against us and laws that criminalize us, we are aware that escort providers must live in the real world. At it's best, that world disrespects and ostracizes us; at it's worst, it seeks to exploit and even harm us. TheProviderPage.com is a site planned and paid for by a provider to offer a safe harbor from that world for my peers. Whether your method of running your business includes being a "lot lizard", a "streetwalker", an escort working for a respectable agency, an escort working independently, an exclusive mistress who takes on only one client, or a dominatrix who specifically does not offer "escort" services, you are welcome here and will be treated with the respect often missing in the real world. We believe adult providers can make the best choices for themselves without interference from law enforcement on the one hand nor do-gooders who want to "help" us against our will on the other hand. If you need resources and support to run your business, you will find that here. If you choose to leave this business, we seek to provide you information on the best resources that can assist you transition to another lifestyle. We respect each provider's right to choose for herself. We vehemently oppose all forms of human trafficking and child prostitution. The victims of these crimes deserve our compassion and support; those who exploit others in such a manner deserve severe punishment. While much of this site is addressed to women, male providers are welcome also; our only criteria for membership is that you are a provider. All are welcome to read and use our site, but membership is for providers only. Welcome from Bella This site was commissioned by Bella for her fellow escorts. Bella has been in the adult industry for over 25 years. She has owned and operated escort agencies and also worked as a independent escort; therefore she has consulted with the finest attorneys available over the past 25 years. Bella keeps up to date on laws and what is going on in the media (see our news feeds) . Bella's hope is that others can learn from her experience. I hope that other escorts can empower themselves, understand the risks involved and have the tools to make their experiences safer, and for them to be able to find support and fellowship from other escorts. And I hope the escort wanting out of this lifestyle will find some resources here that will help her in her transition back to the main stream of society. The only requirement for membership is that you are a legit escort with a good reputation that I can verify. We have just started our journey here on TheProviderPage and have many more great ideas coming soon, and we also value your opinion as a escort so please forward your suggestions/comments and we will take them into consideration.
mysterymilfinri 16y ago
The same newspapers that Craigslist just about crippled have been running ads for yeas,and they where much more expensive, my escort service I use to own in St.Pete times I paid 12.000 a year to keep a 3 line ad up and I also use to pay the yellow pages 15 to 30,000 a year. The internet has giving me the abilty to be indpendent, no more agency drama,and I am able to get better clients, they pay more, I chose the respectful day time guys and only have to see 1 or 2 clients a day and I am also putting my daughter through college. LE is using craigslist as an escpae goat, because they really have no interest in stopping the pimps from exploiting the teenagers, but for some reason they are obsessed with what consenting adults do in private, they go beyond what is legal to arrest these women, and most of their cases would not make it to trail if these women had lawyers, they arrest escorts for just showing up for an appontment, even if they are not able to solicit the women for an illegal act, so they get her for not having a massage license or supsion of prostitution, heck they can't arrest you for suspsion of murder unless they can prove it but its ok to lock up a hooker. They also BULLY the john into snitching and it works because they are no criminals and do not know what to do if detained by police, I bet a drug dealer or gang member wouldn't let LE into bullying confssions out of them. I have bee reading in the news, we have a chief of police handing out crack to street level hooker and exploiting them for sex in lue of going to jail and we have 2 cops while arresting a women during an online sting, took pics of her with their personal sell phones while she was naked and crying and begging to get dress while they laughed at her. these articles are in the newspapers, and happen all the time. It seems if we stalked the predators and pimps with the same ZEST as we d the hooker then we might actually catch some real criminals. But the million dollar question is this, why does the general public believe its ok to treat a hooker any way they want and that she deserves it, what gives anyone the right to HATE us, just because we. exisit. I know LE even calls our employers and landlords after they arrest us, with no cause other than to get us out of their town, do you think we would be safer on the street, where we could become far game to be raped and beaten and we don't want to be regulated so we will have to work in brothels and give the brothel wners most of our money, Back n 2005 I owned a escort service in FL and I was incorpated and paid taxes. Many agencies such as myself are now being harassed and stalked by LE, but seems like if your a cop or governor Spitzer you don't get prosecuted and you can still be on CNN. I just woner who many of MY TAX dollars is LE going to use to STALK ME. Thanks For letting me Rant.
mysterymilfinri 16y ago
Why is it if I place a personal ad on match.com and meet a uy for coffee and he turns out to be a salker that I can call LE for help. But if I place a adult ad and charge for my time and companiosnhip I can not get any assistance from LE if I need it. Ironically do you know what they do to the hookers once they sent them to jail. f they go to prison they usualy get raped by correctional offcers and even used for THEIR OWN PROSTITUION RING, as they are state property. We already have prrof that indoor prositution works, RI had a loophole from 1979 til 2009, they never charged anyone with human trafficking and only arrested street hookers in public and when the CL killer killed the girl in Boston he then wentto RI and robbed a women and she called LE reported it and that is why they catch him. LE does ot want cooperateion from hookersor Craiglsit they just want the keep the witch hunt going for their own personal campaign stradegy.

78 points by jswinghammer 16y ago

ck2 16y ago

Congrats on CL on finally taking the high road without being legally forced to first. Claiming that it should be okay to do something questionable because everyone else does it is never the right attitude. Prostitution ads should not be right next to ads for cars, even if others do it. Those that claim how many illegal things would be better if legalized and regulated are naive.

bmelton 16y ago
The points have been discussed so often elsewhere in this thread, but I just wanted to point out that, for me at least, this is very much the low road. Bowing down to socio-political pressure without being demanded to, for a service that is very clearly popular and (I believe) ought to be legal is, in my opinion, spineless. I understand that their heart is in the right place, and I'm very understanding that their belief system may not match my own, so I applaud them for doing what they feel is right... but that is all that I can applaud them for.
- ck2 16y ago
  The problem is prostitution is not victimless crime like most men want to believe. No-one can possibly believe someone wants to be a prostitute. Not only are some girls forced into it by pimps and syndicate hooking them on drugs to guarantee their "employment", even if others just enter into it out of desperation for quick cash, once you are down that path it can screw up your life forever. So yeah, condoning it and promoting it and making it easily available on sites like CL has to be prevented for the better of society over the desire of men to have effortlessly accessible sex. I consider that taking the high road, thinking of others before yourself. I'm under no delusion that it's going to drop even 1% with CL's listings gone, but it's still the right thing to do.
toto 16y ago
Cars kills every minute, the car section should be shut down!

jsz0 16y ago

I bet most of the people freaking out about CL's adult services haven't considered that censorship usually leads to an increased demand. They're doing an excellent job advertising to the world that you can easily buy sex online. If they really wanted to help people they'd be advocating a safe highly regulated adult services industry that satisfies the demand while eliminating most of the ugly side effects of prohibition. They completely reject this idea so it seems obvious to me their agenda is more about moral pontificating than helping people or they truly have no understanding of how the real world works.

danilocampos 16y ago
It's much easier to shoot the messenger than solve the problem. It's all posturing.
bluedanieru 16y ago
It's both, they have no understanding how the real world works, and so they think they are doing everyone a favor with their agenda. And they have neither the desire nor the ability to change.
qq66 16y ago
In this case, censorship does not lead to increased demand. In prostitution, demand is fairly constant, and supply is what is usually affected by legalization. Legalization tends to increase supply (women willing to engage in prostitution), which has the effect of increasing the number of prostitutes, making their jobs safer, and lowering prices (there is an risk premium embedded in prostitute pricing in countries where prostitution is illegal).
jordanb 16y ago
The Cook County (Chicago) Sheriff, Tom Dart, has been leading the charge on this. The Tribune had an article a few days ago about him increasing prostitution busts, and putting up ads around O'Hare warning johns to stay away. With all this moral outrage coming out of him about prostitution, I'm expecting that he'll soon be arrested in a prostitution bust. Anti-prostitution groups always drag out trafficking as a reason to be against prostitution, and also child prostitution. But being a prostitute or being a john are both misdemeanor offences, whereas trafficking and sexual child abuse are both very serious felony charges. It seems to me that anti-trafficking and child sexual abuse laws are a lot more effective in dealing with those problems than general anti-prostitution laws are. The argument about trafficking really rings hollow. These busts mostly target the prostitutes. If they really wanted to find trafficking victims, they'd get a lot better luck approaching women not in the context of arresting them, and asking them about their situation. Throwing women against the police car and slapping handcuffs on them seems counterproductive if your goal is to limit trafficking. If anything, it reinforces everything the traffickers tell the women about the police, making them less likely to cooperate. If a women is not a victim of sex slavery or underage, it seems absurd that she could be charged with a crime for selling something she can legally give away for free.

derefr 16y ago

In case you're wondering: this only affects Craigslist users in the U.S. It's fine here in Canada, for example.

raganwald 16y ago
I am struggling with the notion of a country that will defend to the death the rights of its citizens to purchase guns and use hateful speech, but simultaneously attack sex with such fundamentalist zeal. I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance.
- TGJ 16y ago
  The country defends the right to speech, whether you are hateful with it or not is your choice. The country defends the right of guns to remind the government that the population is armed and willing to stand up to oppressive regimes. Proliferation of sex outside of the family unit, destroys the family unit. Seems straight forward to me.
  - raganwald 16y ago
    You are simply repeating what I said. Of course I understand that you do not allow the govt. to pass laws restricting speech, and of course you allow and even celebrate hateful speech. And yes, you dearly cherish the quaint notion of an armed rebellion: That's how you were founded. But nothing you have said explains why your laws celebrate freedom for the first two cases: You trust citizens with the right to speak and the right to manage their own deadly weapons, but in the third case you are suddenly "You can't be trusted to make your own choices." Thus, I find your answer is a non-answer, because it does not explain the dichotomy. Furthermore, your third point confuses me. Are you saying that it is an American value to avoid sex before or outside of a marriage conducted for the purpose of raising children?
  - derefr 16y ago
    Why does the government care about defending "the family unit?" That's not its job.

kingkawn 16y ago

no, its just located here now: http://newyork.craigslist.org/thp/ http://newyork.craigslist.org/thp/

anaphoric 16y ago

I used to know Jim Buckmaster, the CEO of CL back in the day in Ann Arbor. He dated my sister for several years. Any ways Jim is a really smart and together guy, and I would suspect in his heart that he takes a pretty dim view of people who shop for sex. At the same time I know him to be a person of principle and I suspect those principles are some type of Chomskyan libertarianism. BTW I wonder what Chomsky would say w.r.t. this controversy. Clearly you have two opposing principles. One is free speech, the other is something that most feel is inherently exploitative and should be minimized. Any ways, I suspect that CL gets more heat because they go against the grain of common corporate culture. Like I said, Jim is a man of principle.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Chomskyan libertarianism? I'm not very familiar with Chomsky, but as I recall he has opposed freedom of speech, freedom of contract (for low skill workers), and favors taking wealth from some and giving to others by force. Wikipedia describes him as a socialist. That sounds like the exact opposite of libertarianism to me. Could you explain what you mean by the term?
- anaphoric 16y ago
  Sorry, you are right. I misspoke. He rather has 'anarchist' leanings. He is against "systems of domination without justification". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G6kf7XM9Nk Chomsky has a complex position that defies quick labels. I think his analysis of the system is pretty accurate, but, of course I don't really see him as having presented any type of workable solution/alternative. But what brilliant analysis and critique!
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  Chomsky is a 'libertarian socialist', which is very different than Socialism. See the giant thread here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1653063 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1653063

ErrantX 16y ago

I never thought TC would ever come up with a quote worth, uh, quoting, but pigs are in flight today! If it’s just a sex crime it isn’t a story. But if a listing on Craigslist was involved, it’s a big story. Painfully true. It's all bullshit as well, this "OMG Sex crimes" nonsense. We investigate sex crimes (i.e. rape, abuse, murder etc.) caused by the internet - literally none of them (and I am well above 60 investigations in that area now) have anything to do with personal ads such as the ones censored here. I might be out on a limb here because a) this is based on only a small amount of empirical evidence and b) I've not talked to colleagues to get their take on it, but, most of the internet derived sex crime comes from the "under the radar" sleazy dating sites or, more likely, simply someone they managed to get on MSN. These people prey on those looking for a boyfriend, not someone looking to sell sex. Prostitutes are, for the most part, not stupid - they know when to take a deal or walk away. I can't help feeling crusades such as this are actually harmful. </rant>

korch 16y ago

The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly. —Abraham Lincoln First, the only question that truly matters: Cui Bono? What industry made ~40% of their revenues from classified listings within the last decade? What industry has been slyly running hooker ads and profiting off prostitution for decades? What industry has been anti-Internet from the start? What industry has been running sensationalist, sexed-up hit-pieces scaring the public about rampant crime on Craigslist for several years? And more importantly in the grand-scheme of things, from a level way above mere prostitution: What hypocritical industry has been utterly incapable of understanding that the core tenet of online freedom of speech is intimately connected to the availability of online, open forums where anyone can say anything in an anonymous, online public space that is protected under the first amendment? Newspapers. And it's funny because no newspaper editor will ever let what I just said ever see print, as this tempest in a teapot about the world's oldest profession continues to simmer. Remember, it's an election year, so all these AGs who have been turning a blind eye to prostitution for decades now have the perfect political opportunity to play the morality police handed to them on a silver platter: It has taken years to trend, but the MSM has slowly pumped up a moral crusade around Craigslist. Gee, isn't that convenient for them? Now they just want to hand off the ball to the state AGs. Then the AGs get to grand-stand from their corrupt moral soapboxes, which helps their political base, and the newspapers get to reclaim ~30% of Craigslist's revenue. Ahh, the circle of Life, ain't it beautiful! You don't see Backpage, the 2nd largest site for the exact same adult classified ads being targeted at all now do you? Who owns Backpage? Why it's the Village Voice media corp, who has deep pockets, a long history, and many friends in high places. Craig's biggest personal mistake was not doing what Google had to do a few years ago, what Microsoft learned to do in the 90's during the antitrust trial, and what countless other tech companies insulated in their Silicon Valley tech bubble all have eventually had to do: send one hundred or more paid lobbyists to DC. Who has been public enemy #1 of the newspapers and their media conglomerates? Who has almost single-handedly caused the entire newspaper industry to cave in on itself in just a decade? Craigslist What we're seeing here is just business as usual from the Great Houses of yellow journalism. AND NOW FOR A RANT! :) /rant I know a thing or two about a thing or two in this particular niche of the classified industry, since once upon a time long ago I worked a very brief & desperate stint coding at some unnamed company in the adult classified biz. It's not at all what the general public thinks it is. It's a lot more organized, practical and intentional in subtle ways most people don't realize, while the sexy, titillating parts that you see Faux News and CNN play are not nearly as exciting in reality. I don't pass any judgment on it—it's called the oldest profession for a reason. We're all mammals after all, what's wrong with that? In fact, I think it should be completely legal, across the board, and regulated by the health industry just like in Europe and most of the rest of the world. Too many Americans are completely stupid in their expectations about what they think would happen if it were legal. It's exactly like with America's idiotic, failed War on Some Drugs and alcohol Prohibition. Make it illegal, no it doesn't stop, since any attempt to legislate the most basic and natural of all human behaviors is futile! Prohibition only makes it worse in fact, as it just empowers organized crime to take over. Who do you think is trafficking little kids for this? Who is keeping the modern day equivalent of female slaves? Who has international shipping networks to even do those kind of logistics? Who is committing 99% of the violence in an industry of "victimless crime"? Who is tying this illegal industry to others, like drug or arms trafficking, in order to capitalize on economies of scale? Not some 12 year old girl from some Asian country. And not John Smith who has been in a sexless marriage for 20 years. And it's not Corner Pimp Moe who still lives with his mother since he just got out of jail for a petty misdemeanor. No, it's the organized criminals and corporations pulling the strings in high places in America who only exist because our gov't has setup a system of (in)justice that enables them to operate. And a massive amount of our tax dollars are wasted in law enforcement of this industry. There's a massive opportunity cost behind it—just remember, every hooker busted and given the average penalty of a $200 ticket with no jail time is one less robber, murderer, rapist, you name it, who is caught and taken off the streets by the cops. Not to mention that the cops don't really want to enforce prohibition, since they could care less about being the morality police, and they know they have a snowball's chance in hell of stopping basic mammalian reproduction, so they are already doing it half-assed. It's kind of like the military study where they found that 60% of soldiers on the battle fields were intentionally aiming high during Vietnam to miss their human targets—such is the subconscious social fear of hurting other human beings! We need our cops to be effective and trusted by society, not the opposite! So why are we setting up a judicial system that sets the cops up for failure? And don't even get me started on the Feminist angle on all of this. I'll just say that I know of nothing else in society than making it illegal that has done more to exploit, injure and permanently disadvantage countless innocent women than the entire legal and social apparatus setup for prohibition. Most of these women have tough lives, tough backgrounds, they have fallen through the cracks in education and our social system, and they are single moms getting by in a decimated economy. That's not exactly what I picture when I imagine criminals. But here in America we can't treat people at the bottom of our social order in a decent, Christian way. As a society, what is our solution to this so-called problem? We add another layer of victimization on these innocent women who are already victimized! America is shameful in how always treats its least well-off citizens. Yes, I blame the hypocritical religious fundies who's modus operandi is to scare folks into the pews on Sundays, and who have apparently forgotten the level of forgiveness and tolerance which Jesus himself showed to prostitutes. Ultimately it's due to America's historic, unchangeable bedrock of Puritan culture. Even though America practically invented porn, culturally, we have a completely backwards view towards human sexuality and behavior, compared to the rest of the modernized world, who laughs at us. Ooh, the answer, I know, I know, let's criminalize it! As for the consequences of legality, no, all marriages and relationships would not be doomed as everyone switches to hookers. In fact, the opposite would probably happen: the price would drop(you have no idea how much of the money is wasted on jumping through hoops to keep safe from organized crime and Johnny Law), and the labor supply would go up a little bit. But the social stigma would remain, and this is the important part. Since humans are entirely social creatures, legalization would probably have the completely counter-intuitive effect of making relationships better across society, since if sex is made nearly valueless, rather than equivalent to what a top attorney would bill you per hour, then the social shame aspect is suddenly bumped to the top of the list of concerns. Since you don't have to worry about being associated with illegality, slavery, crime, etc. And we all know that shaming within social groups is the most effective way to alter and control human behavior—even more so than relying on prison or economics to do it. QED.

patio11 16y ago

I hear quite often that prostitution would be a wonderfully pleasant industry if it were only legal, which does not square with the experiences of countries where it is legal or tolerated. You pretty much have to be running schoolgirls out of homeroom to get the Nagoya police to so much as glance in your direction, but Japanese prostitution is a very, very ugly place to be, and much of it is based on trafficking. I live two hundred feet from a "Korean aesthetic salon" which is open at three A.M. in the morning. One of the not-so-young ladies who works there has taken to sleeping on the bus bench across the street recently, in heat which has nearly sent me to the hospital twice. You may have heard that Japan has a storied relationship with its Korean immigrants. Those who do -- to use a nauseating euphemism -- the jobs Japanese girls won't do can expect neglect from polite society, because polite society knows that inquiring into her circumstances means they have to know what goes on in those walls, and they are very interested in keeping up the fiction that they do not know what goes on in those walls. Or take the European experience. Amsterdam, city of lights, so much more sophisticated than the American puritans, perfectly legal thriving sex trade, right? It has been taken over by Russian mafia who are undercutting the locals via use of trafficked girls from Eastern Europe. You always have the option as a merchant of sex slaves to one-up what the "morally upright prostitutes" allow, safe in the knowledge that they will cover for you because an investigation into what you are doing harms their business interests. Society, meanwhile, has no great desire to actually police what happens inside of brothels, preferring to believe its sanity-saving fictions like "she wants to be there", "it is just sex between two consenting adults", and "no slaves live on my block." http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/world/europe/24amsterdam.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/world/europe/24amsterdam.h... Prostitution, legal or otherwise, is not pretty. It is based, root and branch, on exploitation. To the extent you think that legalizing it will end the exploitation, you believe something which is contrary to reality.

weeksie 16y ago
Don't paint every country with the same brush. In Australia it's legal and regulated. Sure, there are dodgy brothels (usually the asian ones) but the normal ones are mostly college girls who are earning a bunch of extra cash.

jfager 16y ago

This seems a bit petulant to me. There is real, substantive criticism of how CL handles adult ads independent of grandstanding politicians, hand-wringing moralists, and sensationalist media. These groups are always going to be flinging shit around; why dignify them by pretending to be their victim? And why refuse to acknowledge the legitimate issues that are raised? CL has said nothing in response to critics who have pointed out that independent research groups have been able to place ads that contradict CL's stated policies, or that relevant authorities have said they've received few to no reports of suspicious activity from CL. Refusing to acknowledge these problems, and instead focusing on the misdeeds or weakest arguments of their most sensational critics, undermines CL's credibility quite a bit. And if you are going to shut the section down on your own, just do it. You don't get any pity for claiming you've been censored when there's been no actual legal pressure applied. You haven't been censored, you just caved.

toto 16y ago

People believing that the prostitution issue will be solved through craigslist section shut down, should learn what 5 whys root cause analysis is... This sounds like first level solution, what about the other ones? Emotional topic. Difficult (half)-solutions.

drblast 16y ago

I can't understand the motivations for this. Several state attorney generals find out there is are people going to a web site, and for all intents and purposes advertising they are going to commit criminal acts. The public is outraged. A rational person whose job is to enforce the law at this point would be dancing in happy circles, because the criminals are not only advertising their crimes, they're doing it in a single, easily searchable location. This makes his job much easier than it was before. So what does this person do in order to score political points with the outraged public? Arrest all these people in sting operations? No. He gets the site shut down. Out of sight, out of mind. And the public is happy about that. For the life of me I can't understand why people do the things they do and feel justified about it. Prostitution is either so bad that it should be illegal and those laws enforced, or it shouldn't be illegal at all because all that does is create problems. There is no middle ground here.

mysterymilfinri 16y ago

Ironically even though Craigslist just about crippled the newspaper industry, these same newspapers have been running adult ads in the personal sections, in every major cities for years, ad how about the good old yelow pages that the escort services use to pay 15,000 a year to appear in. The problem is this, LE is going to keep using CL as an escape goat, while they have no real interest in catching pimps expoiting teens, they want to STALK MIDDLE AGE CONSENTING ADULTS IN PRIVATE, because of their moral witch hunt. We have street hookers in every city, they don't seem to concerned about them. On top of the sex worker being criminalized LE often calls her employer and landlord when they arrest her, its like being the victim of a hate crime, where you hated just because you exisit. We are not given the same sancation and protection under the law as everyne else, and they even wish us harm. Why are we such a threat, it seems if they went after the predators and pimps with the same ZEST that they go after these consenting adults, we might live in a nicer world. Also lets look at LE behavior, follow this newsfeed http://theproviderpage.com/news/TheProviderPage-News.php http://theproviderpage.com/news/TheProviderPage-News.php Here you will see how the chief of police was handing out crack to street hookers and then expoitig them for sex in lue of going to jail and the 2 cops while arresting a women on a online sting, they took pics of her naked with their personal cell phones while she cried and begged to get dressed as they laughed at her. All sex workers are expoited, by their own persona plight, poverty, and how does society really think we will be safer if we become homeless and live on the street, don't you think we would be raped and become a target for violence because we have no shelter/safety. None of these MORAL People who want to save us from ourselves are creating any services or safety for these women. I just wonder why society seems to think its ok to treat a hooker anyway and that she gets what she deserves, she could easily be your mother, sister, aunt or child. Don't be so naive that you think this would never affect someone you know. The internet gave me the abilty to find safer, higher paying clients, that I see on my terms, without needing an agency to give half my money too. I can choose to see just 1 or 2 clients a day and am putting my daugter through college as a single mom. I am also creating http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ which I am creating to support my peers. Thanks for listening to my rant.

mysterymilfinri 16y ago

See us at http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ http://theproviderpage.com/cms/ While we oppose society's Moral Witch Hunt against us and laws that criminalize us, we are aware that escort providers must live in the real world. At it's best, that world disrespects and ostracizes us; at it's worst, it seeks to exploit and even harm us. TheProviderPage.com is a site planned and paid for by a provider to offer a safe harbor from that world for my peers. Whether your method of running your business includes being a "lot lizard", a "streetwalker", an escort working for a respectable agency, an escort working independently, an exclusive mistress who takes on only one client, or a dominatrix who specifically does not offer "escort" services, you are welcome here and will be treated with the respect often missing in the real world. We believe adult providers can make the best choices for themselves without interference from law enforcement on the one hand nor do-gooders who want to "help" us against our will on the other hand. If you need resources and support to run your business, you will find that here. If you choose to leave this business, we seek to provide you information on the best resources that can assist you transition to another lifestyle. We respect each provider's right to choose for herself. We vehemently oppose all forms of human trafficking and child prostitution. The victims of these crimes deserve our compassion and support; those who exploit others in such a manner deserve severe punishment. While much of this site is addressed to women, male providers are welcome also; our only criteria for membership is that you are a provider. All are welcome to read and use our site, but membership is for providers only. Welcome from Bella This site was commissioned by Bella for her fellow escorts. Bella has been in the adult industry for over 25 years. She has owned and operated escort agencies and also worked as a independent escort; therefore she has consulted with the finest attorneys available over the past 25 years. Bella keeps up to date on laws and what is going on in the media (see our news feeds) . Bella's hope is that others can learn from her experience. I hope that other escorts can empower themselves, understand the risks involved and have the tools to make their experiences safer, and for them to be able to find support and fellowship from other escorts. And I hope the escort wanting out of this lifestyle will find some resources here that will help her in her transition back to the main stream of society. The only requirement for membership is that you are a legit escort with a good reputation that I can verify. We have just started our journey here on TheProviderPage and have many more great ideas coming soon, and we also value your opinion as a escort so please forward your suggestions/comments and we will take them into consideration.

mysterymilfinri 16y ago

The same newspapers that Craigslist just about crippled have been running ads for yeas,and they where much more expensive, my escort service I use to own in St.Pete times I paid 12.000 a year to keep a 3 line ad up and I also use to pay the yellow pages 15 to 30,000 a year. The internet has giving me the abilty to be indpendent, no more agency drama,and I am able to get better clients, they pay more, I chose the respectful day time guys and only have to see 1 or 2 clients a day and I am also putting my daughter through college. LE is using craigslist as an escpae goat, because they really have no interest in stopping the pimps from exploiting the teenagers, but for some reason they are obsessed with what consenting adults do in private, they go beyond what is legal to arrest these women, and most of their cases would not make it to trail if these women had lawyers, they arrest escorts for just showing up for an appontment, even if they are not able to solicit the women for an illegal act, so they get her for not having a massage license or supsion of prostitution, heck they can't arrest you for suspsion of murder unless they can prove it but its ok to lock up a hooker. They also BULLY the john into snitching and it works because they are no criminals and do not know what to do if detained by police, I bet a drug dealer or gang member wouldn't let LE into bullying confssions out of them. I have bee reading in the news, we have a chief of police handing out crack to street level hooker and exploiting them for sex in lue of going to jail and we have 2 cops while arresting a women during an online sting, took pics of her with their personal sell phones while she was naked and crying and begging to get dress while they laughed at her. these articles are in the newspapers, and happen all the time. It seems if we stalked the predators and pimps with the same ZEST as we d the hooker then we might actually catch some real criminals. But the million dollar question is this, why does the general public believe its ok to treat a hooker any way they want and that she deserves it, what gives anyone the right to HATE us, just because we. exisit. I know LE even calls our employers and landlords after they arrest us, with no cause other than to get us out of their town, do you think we would be safer on the street, where we could become far game to be raped and beaten and we don't want to be regulated so we will have to work in brothels and give the brothel wners most of our money, Back n 2005 I owned a escort service in FL and I was incorpated and paid taxes. Many agencies such as myself are now being harassed and stalked by LE, but seems like if your a cop or governor Spitzer you don't get prosecuted and you can still be on CNN. I just woner who many of MY TAX dollars is LE going to use to STALK ME. Thanks For letting me Rant.

mysterymilfinri 16y ago

Why is it if I place a personal ad on match.com and meet a uy for coffee and he turns out to be a salker that I can call LE for help. But if I place a adult ad and charge for my time and companiosnhip I can not get any assistance from LE if I need it. Ironically do you know what they do to the hookers once they sent them to jail. f they go to prison they usualy get raped by correctional offcers and even used for THEIR OWN PROSTITUION RING, as they are state property. We already have prrof that indoor prositution works, RI had a loophole from 1979 til 2009, they never charged anyone with human trafficking and only arrested street hookers in public and when the CL killer killed the girl in Boston he then wentto RI and robbed a women and she called LE reported it and that is why they catch him. LE does ot want cooperateion from hookersor Craiglsit they just want the keep the witch hunt going for their own personal campaign stradegy.