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To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes.
by awakeasleep 9y ago
To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system.
Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.'
The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- pishpash 9y agoThe world goes around in circles. Some always want to be on top of others, enslaving them until they get overthrown.
- Itaxpica 9y agoThis is the case in North Korea (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbun), and it's terrifying to see it spread to other, less-totalitarian states
- posterboy 9y agoThe caste system to me means to put people in the position of a caste on purpose. Just like the younger brothers in feudal europe were second class ... so a prince might just kill his older brother. Or literally enslaving countries wholesale as untouchables (the name being an improvement over beatables, I guess). I have a hunch that caste is cognate with castrate, but it's inexplicably "uncertain" as many such terrible topics are, and indeed it's more nuanced: e.g. castrum is linked in the wiki (think casa). It makes sense via separate<enclosure<cover<layer ... it's much more complicated then that though :/
- hosh 9y agoIt isn't the beginning of a new caste system. It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals. (Not that I agree with Confucian philosophy) Confucian philosophy had influenced Chinese culture for several millennial, and the oral tradition was that Confucius (Kong Tzu) himself distilled what went into the Analects from much older rites and cultures. The basic idea here is that humans don't start out as humans, and require socialization to uplift them and refine their spirit to that of "human". To accomplish this as a society, there is an emphasis on education and behavioral control. This has permeated many levels of the Chinese culture. What is novel here is the use of Big Data and AI to enforce these. Confucious's philosophy and its descendent philosophies, though pervasive, are not the only streams that have influenced Chinese culture. If you are looking for echoes of classical liberalism, you'd find it more at home with the Lao-tzu, and the ethos of "let's improve our society with technology" would find an echo with Mo-tzu. > Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' This already happens before Big Data, both in China and in Taiwan. It happened with other cultures that were influenced by ancient Chinese Confucian thought -- Korea and Japan.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago> It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals Confucious also said "those who cannot forgive others break the bridge over which they themselves must pass.”
- pishpash 9y ago
- jrs95 9y agoThis isn't a permanent thing, it's 'up to one year'. Not much different than what we have in Ohio...any drug charge and your driver's license is suspended for a minimum of 6 months. It's ridiculous, yes, but it's hardly the level of totalitarianism you're describing.
- ams6110 9y agoYeah but losing your driver's license for a DUI or drug charge is a specific defined consequence for a specific behavior. It's not something that happens because you have crossed a line on some nebulous "social credit" scale.
- jrs95 9y agoA DUI is a much more serious crime. It's pretty ridiculous to have a mandatory license suspension for any quantity of marijuana possession. Regardless, what's described in this article is closer to this policy than it is to what OP described in my opinion.
- behindmyscreen 9y agoThe guiding principle however appears to be "Once untrustworthy, always forbidden". That is an issue.
- SubiculumCode 9y agoThat seems like what happens once you have a felony in U.S. I mean that a felony removes your right to vote, makes employment much more difficult.
- adventured 9y agoHow does whataboutism about bad US policy improve the nature or standing of China's bad policy?
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
- bhouston 9y agoIs this a Black Mirror episode?
- reaperducer 9y agoIt's the "Majority Rule" episode of The Orville: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orville#Episodes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Orville#Episodes
- hexane360 9y agoIt's Community's "App Developments and Condiments" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Development_and_Condiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/App_Development_and_Condiments
- bogomipz 9y agoYes, the episode is called "Nosedive." https://www.telegraph.co.uk/on-demand/2017/12/15/black-mirror-coming-true-china-rating-affects-home-transport/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/on-demand/2017/12/15/black-mirro...
- dwd 9y agoIt's probably time we started describing these types of situations Brookerian rather than Orwellian.
- behindmyscreen 9y agoRight. To me, the idea is bad in general, however, if they are going to be doing it, at least be fair and allow for someone to rebuild their social credit just like financial credit.
- makmanalp 9y agoIf you think the financial credit system in the US is working smoothly, you might be mistaken! Post-FACTA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_and_Accurate_Credit_Transactions_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_and_Accurate_Credit_Trans...) it's a lot better, but just ask the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau how much ... https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-oversight-uncovers-and-corrects-credit-reporting-problems/ https://www.consumerfinance.gov/about-us/newsroom/cfpb-overs...
- behindmyscreen 9y agoI feel like I will get Mick Mulvaney and he will tell me that everything was great in the 1950's and that is where he wants to take the CFPB.
- dragonwriter 9y agoMulvaney openly has advocated for the abolition of the CFPB.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- fspeech 9y agoHere are the original NDRC documents being reported here: http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879653.html for air travel http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879654.html http://www.ndrc.gov.cn/gzdt/201803/t20180316_879654.html for train travel and Chinese news summary: http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546.shtml http://www.ce.cn/xwzx/gnsz/gdxw/201803/16/t20180316_28505546... Use Google translate to check if this is being misreported. In China you are "bad credit" if you refuse to pay despite a court order. In the US you could be jailed for contempt of court.
- thathappened 9y agoSo this is really just like communal imprisonment vs jail in other societies
- fspeech 9y agoAir travel has been considered luxury until recently and may still be for most. China has a very developed passenger train network and road network. The train ban for non-safety-related cases only bans travelling in first class/sleeper cars and G trains (high speed trains). You can still travel in regular train cars. So the spirit is more like: if you refuse to pay or claim you can't afford to pay, you shouldn't be able to travel with too much comfort.
- echevil 9y agoIsn't the American credit score more like “once untrustworthy, always restricted”? Most the restrictions announced by China are removed automatically in just one year.
- xeromal 9y agoEvery bad mark expires after 7 years generally. Many times, you can contact the company who you owe and set up a plan where they'll remove the bad mark if you pay the debt in full.
- mastax 9y agoThe time limit for negative information is 7 years.
- DamnYuppie 9y agoNo it isn't. While it can inconvenience you for a few years you can get it back up by simply paying your bills on time and paying down debts. Now that being the case I still don't like credit scores. You can work years, have lots of savings, pay all your bills on time, pay off cars and mortgages and have a rocking credit score. The if one medical vendor sends your $90 bill to the wrong address, you never see it, then they send you to collections you will watch your score crater. This is sadly what happened to me, it is rage inducing!
- hungryhobo 9y agoso it's the same then.
- DamnYuppie 9y agoI am not sure I follow this. I have gotten back up by simply doing the things I was doing before.
- lazerpants 9y agoInteresting. I had the same experience (doctor->collections; trivial amount of money) and it didn't impact my score at all. In fact, I laughed at the collections agent and told her they would never see a penny from me, as it hasn't impacted my score. That was several months ago and still no change in my score and I certainly haven't paid them.
- coliveira 9y agoWhy don't you apply the same reasoning to black people convicted of minor crimes in the USA?
- will_brown 9y agoWhy highlight “black people”? Do white people convicted of crimes not carry a stigma? Hispanics? Notwithstanding the qualifier, I think the difference between criminal records and social credit is the system itself. While flawed at least the (US) court system provide certain safeguards: due process, equal protection, right to remain silent, right to confront accusers, right to a lawyer even if you can’t afford one, ect... What safeguards are in place for a system of social credit?
- cdmckay 9y agoBecause people treat black and Hispanic people with criminal records more harshly than white people. From: https://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/posts/researchers-examine-effects-of-a-criminal-record-on-prospects-for-employment/ https://csgjusticecenter.org/reentry/posts/researchers-exami... > Key findings include: > * Both black and Hispanic men were less likely to receive a positive response from employers—including a call back or email for an interview or a job offer—compared with white men. > * Men with criminal records were more likely than women with criminal records to receive a negative response from employers. > * White men with a criminal record had more positive responses than black men with no criminal record.
- lovich 9y agoEven if we safeguards worked 100% perfectly do they matter if we craft laws that convict a certain group of people? I can't remember the quote exactly, but there's one about the law, in all it's equality, prevents the poor and rich alike from sleeping outside or begging for food. I don't really see a practical difference between the two systems
- will_brown 9y agoYou can’t have it both ways... Safeguards that work 100% and laws that convict a certain group. Moreover, one of the safe guards is “equal protection” (14th Amendment) and if a Law on its face or in application is designed to convict a certain group that law would be declared unconstitutional. If a Law is being challenged under the 14th Amendment, there are 3 levels of scrutiny: 1. Strict: race, national origin, religion, alienage 2. Middle tier: gender, illegitimacy 3. Minimum scrutiny: all other classes As to your quote, I for one would love to see a class created based on socio-economic status which receives the highest level of scruitiny. Nevertheless there are significant differences between our exisiting system of US law and the a unproven/untested social credit system. Maybe in time as it plays out one of us will change our mind.
- jdietrich 9y agoConsider the restrictions that US law places on convicted felons. Millions of Americans have been stripped of constitutional rights, often for infractions as minor as stealing a coat or possessing half an ounce of marijuana. Felons often face considerable difficulties in finding employment and housing. "Once untrustworthy, always restricted" is a practical reality in the US.
- DamnYuppie 9y agoStealing a coat or possessing 1/2 and ounce of marijuana are generally not felonies. Stealing would be larceny and there are cost thresholds associated with that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felony
- jamesblonde 9y agoWhat about 3 strikes in many States?
- thathappened 9y agoSympathy for habitual criminals?
- bilbo0s 9y agoI understand your point. But I think the problem actually arises long before strike number three. In most cases, it's ONE strike and you're out as far as "bad social credit score" goes. It's just going to be VERY difficult for you to secure employment, or even decent housing, with that conviction on your record. Just one of the hard realities of the legal system.
- DamnYuppie 9y agoI am not sure I follow your question as it is very open ended. Are you asking if I am in favor of incarcerating criminals who continually commit violent felonies?
- vondur 9y ago
- kiteracer 9y agoYou can extend this metaphor to employment and job performance as well, as explored by Marshall Brain in his short story "Manna" [0]: > You can imagine what would happen. Manna fires you because you don't show up for work a couple times. Now you try to go get a job somewhere else. No other Manna system is going to hire you. There had always been an implicit threat in the American economy -- "if you do not have a job, you cannot make any money and you will therefore become homeless." Manna simply took that threat and turned the screws. If you did not do what Manna told you to, it would fire you. Then you would not be able to get a job anywhere else. As we get better at collecting and analyzing data on employees (a hot topic whenever tech interviews are discussed on HN), we should remember to exercise a certain amount of "social forgiveness." [0] http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm http://marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm
- harlanji 9y agoMy life history shows this isn’t hypothetical. Rising star from midwest now on a life raft in SF, rent 6+ wk overdue, most accounts closed, no cash and bank account frozen/thawed if I can get funds, and most everyone’s abandoned me. Can’t even afford a bus ride/parking meter to get to a meetup/friends’ game demo. Simple conversation with old friends from home show I am a good guy but it’s invisible. Instead we see InstantCheckMate telling the world I was arrested for something. They don’t talk about the nuance of the situation, people only see the Red Bang (!) and stop. Add to that two frivolous firings possibly derived from that image, followed by some shit rung jobs I quit because they were the only ones who’d hire me and hold my lack of options over my head. Now working like a mad man to do something somebody will pay me for. I like to say it always works out in the end. The good part about being choked nearly to death is I fear nothing anymore, including the latter. So this body is a vessel to show the dangers of this type of system via Internet Archive. Block chain terrifies me in this regard. I now feel why people run around in fear like I used to. I go to the beach every day and the universe seems to bring me exactly what I need. I feel better than ever.
- CompelTechnic 9y agoThanks for that link. Manna was an amazing read.
- 9y ago
- aero142 9y agoThese problems also exist with debt and I think similar solutions are also possible. Muslim law banned interest. Jewish custom create Jubilee where debt was forgiven every seven years. America has a fairly forgiving bankruptcy system. I think the world of personal data scores is coming whether we like it or not, the only question is how is society going to codify it into law. Privacy laws may also apply to this where you are only allowed to keep these kinds of records for a few years and then they have to be expunged. At the government level, maybe your childhood mistakes phase out over time by law.
- fareesh 9y agoI think we are assuming that once you have a low score it becomes impossible to raise the score back to an acceptable level. Caste does not work like that. If you are born into the wrong caste you can't be promoted to a higher one.
- echevil 9y agoThe original announcement all included ways that these restrictions are lifted. Most of them are automatically lifted in 180 days or 1 year.
- bduerst 9y agoAlready happened with Wells Fargo, who fired and blacklisted employees that refused to create extra (illegal) accounts for their customers. Those employees couldn't get a job in finance again.
- Slansitartop 9y ago> Already happened with Wells Fargo, who fired and blacklisted employees that refused to create extra (illegal) accounts for their customers. Those employees couldn't get a job in finance again. It's worth noting that Wells Fargo ironically did that by abusing a fraud reporting system: > The blacklist is called "U5," and it's maintained by the finance institutions as a way of alerting each other to fraudsters who are fired for breaking finance rules. The list was designed to protect banks from fraud, but it has no defenses against fraudulent banks. https://boingboing.net/2016/10/31/wells-fargo-blackballed-employ.html https://boingboing.net/2016/10/31/wells-fargo-blackballed-em...
- wdr1 9y agoThe first sentence in the article states the restrictions are "for up to a year". Where does your "always restricted" come from? Not to be rude, but did you read the article or just the headline?
- daodedickinson 9y agoResisting the Chinese Communist Party is not a mistake IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT MISSION ON THE PLANET TODAY. Even the pope has given up his right to name bishops to the CCP. The pope is no longer Catholic and has become Communist just a few decades after JP2 gave us such hope. Now communist propaganda has Americans disarming themselves and praising the CCP as the best government in the world. Humanity is doomed and when AI takes over there will be nothing left of humanity worth saving.
- Aunche 9y agoDoes anyone have have the actual context of where “once untrustworthy, always restricted” is applied? It sounds like the author cherry picked the most provocative quote out of context and applied the most nefarious translation, especially since the punishments seem to be temporary according to the article.
- throwwit 9y agoCaste systems will never go away until the asymmetric advantage they endow to a majority is honestly weighed against the hidden costs of society manifesting self-fulfilling prophecies in the minority. Which way should the slippery slope slide? Should an individual’s means to succeed be the rule or an exception. That’s freedom, thats’s bravery in my eyes.
- nothis 9y agoInteresting way to look at how inequality grows and IMO totally logical. It's scary as fuck, especially since China is on the verge of becoming very powerful on an international level.
- krylon 9y agoThank God that doesn't sound the like the US at all.
- dredmorbius 9y agoQuite. Beware creating a cohort with nothing left to lose. https://suntzusaid.com/book/8/2 https://suntzusaid.com/book/8/2
- ccajas 9y agoI would like to see if there exist any societal examples of self-regulation in social status, beyond rehabilitation and re-education centers. A healthy human body releases sweat as one form of regulating body temperature. If it fails to do this, you can reason that the person is unhealthy or has an illness. A cause of a systemic failure. If such feedback loops exist in a society that cause the worst in reputation to fall in even deeper, then there is also a systemic failure here. It promotes the idea that anything broken should just be discarded rather than fixed. It is a very passive way to run a society.