13 ms·

False memories, or why we’re so sure of things we’re wrong about

230 points by Hooke 9y ago

GenYCubeJockey 9y ago
I'd like to see a cross-section of data and metrics that acknowledge that some human beings lie. I searched the article for any mention of lie or untruth or manipulation and found nothing. Why is that concerning to me? >Ultimately, we want to understand the psychological mechanisms underlying these kinds of cognitive processes to generate models that can contribute to computer programs and artificial intelligence. "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that." - Hal A great start would be to use the espoused rubric on Duke students and/or faculty to see if they are willing to lie about bribery in NCAA Basketball recruiting vis-a-vie success.
- sdrothrock 9y ago
  I agree, especially in this kind of study, where it's been acknowledged (e.g. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09658211.2017.1340286 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09658211.2017.1...) that lies contribute to the formation of false memories. For example, another commenter reports that his mother seemingly remembers things that never happened; the first thing I thought (because of similar experiences) was that perhaps his mother had lied to friends about family coming over to visit.
Anon84 9y ago
The mengle effect ;)
- cJ0th 9y ago
  No, it's the Mandela effect. Either that or some weird parallel universe stuff.
  - pluma 9y ago
    Weird, I'm pretty sure it was always called the Mengele effect but all Google results indicate it's always been called the Mandela effect. /s
SubiculumCode 9y ago
The classic Deese–Roediger–McDermott false memory study paradigm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deese%E2%80%93Roediger%E2%80%93McDermott_paradigm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deese%E2%80%93Roediger%E2%80%9... Basically, semantically related lures can lead to false memories for items not actually presented. Interestingly, younger children do not have this type of false memories as frequently. That is theorized to be because a)a reliance on verbatim memory traces, an b)under-developed semantic knowledge
- adventured 9y ago
  I'd argue a strong impact for young children, is that they haven't formed but a small fraction of the concepts that adults have. They simply are unable to generate as many or as elaborate of false memories because they lack the necessary array of concepts required for a higher level of creativity an older human can put together. Simply put, if you're aware of seven concepts, that's a hard limiting wall for your creativity when it comes to inventing false memories. What would the false memories consist of? They can only consist of what you know. And further restricting that limited set, is the ways in which you understand to arrange/rearrange what you know. You understand the concept table. You know the generally defining characteristics visually of a table. You know some of the ways a table is or can be used, however you only possess a limited knowledge of tables and how they can be used. That limited knowledge set of "table," restricts your ability to utilize the concept "table" in your false memories.
  - SubiculumCode 9y ago
    I'm using 'semantic' as an umbrella term to include facts AND concepts. So we are saying very similar things.
  - gowld 9y ago
    No one is aware of only 7 concepts after the first few days of life. Children are exceptionally "good" at mixing reality and fantasy and not having the critical thinking skills and knowledge to reject the reality of their dreams.
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
oceanghost 9y ago
My mother in law is a master confabulator. She makes up stories out of whole cloth and absolutely believes them. They range from the mundane to the fantastic to the impossible. Some examples: One year she was disappointed that we didn't come to spend Christmas Eve with her. She never called to make plans because she imagined we'd just come over because "that's what we always do." In reality--we have never spent xmas eve together-- ever. She insists there was a ghost in her house which played pranks on her and-- in full view of two other people levitated a potted plant and threw it at her. and her masterpiece-- blaming me for her husband's death (of cancer) because I asked him to come to his daughter's graduation ceremony. I don't even know what to do with this one. The maddening thing is, these people absolutely believe these things. They will argue until they are blue and tell you that you're crazy. It's hard to even blame them in the end.
- mehrdadn 9y ago
  Regarding the ghost thing, I assume it wasn't the case here, but it could be a life-or-death situation... see this video (I don't want to spoil it so I won't say more): https://www.ted.com/talks/carrie_poppy_a_scientific_approach_to_the_paranormal https://www.ted.com/talks/carrie_poppy_a_scientific_approach...
  - tedajax 9y ago
    There's something endlessly entertaining about the juxtaposition of a life or death situation and still not telling him outright just to maintain the suspense.
  - dEnigma 9y ago
    Just in case anyone is interested (spoilers!): the talk is about a woman who thought her house was haunted, but it turned out she was suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning, due to a leak. Carbon monoxide can cause auditory hallucinations and feelings of dread and pressure on your chest. Edit: added spoiler warning
    - mehrdadn 9y ago
TipVFL 9y ago
The scariest thing about false memories is that police interrogation techniques are great at planting them. Yet another reason to never talk to the police. https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/people-can-be-convinced-they-committed-a-crime-they-dont-remember.html https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/people-ca...
- shams93 9y ago
  There are people who are still in prison over the most ahsurb charges leveled in the heat of the 1980s Satanic Panic. Bogues right wing Christian therapists implanted false memories of satanic ritual abuse in children you have parents who are still in prison over the most bogus charges drovenby flase memory implants.
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    I have read about cases like that in children, but they didn't really chalk it up to false memory implantation. It seemed mostly to come down to children just wanting to give the answer that the authority figure wants to hear. Or what the child perceives as what they want to hear.
    - boomboomsubban 9y ago
      That still sounds like false memory implanting. They're asking detailed questions and the child knows they want them to agree, so they say yes and start believing what the question said happened. I will say that the questioner wasn't necessarily trying to get this to happen, but they still would have implanted a memory.
lsc 9y ago
The interesting thing is that society really strongly rewards confidence, even when you are wrong... but having a certain amount of self-doubt, I think, is fundamental to sanity for all the reasons in the article; sometimes, even when I'm really sure, it turns out that I'm just... wrong.
- sametmax 9y ago
  Not just society, institutions and groups. But individuals as well. It's probably hardwired in our brain.
  - lsc 9y ago
    Maybe? I find I have a "dangerous other" type reaction to people who seem too confident. I mean, I can get over it, but my initial reaction to a confident person tends to be quite negative; I pretty much immediately switch to "defense against salesmen" mode and only slowly start to consider that they might actually be competent after they have proven themselves, which is quite different, I think, from how I try to treat people in general.
    - sametmax 9y ago
      I found out that your reaction mainly rise among intellectuals, which are not the majority. Also it's only triggered with certain kind of display of confidence (like aggressive confidence, or confidence mixed with poor vocabulary/skill, etc). E.G: the confidence of a humble but strong expert does not trigger the reaction.
      - projektir 9y ago
        > I found out that your reaction mainly rise among intellectuals, which are not the majority. That very much implies it's not hardwired, though, just that it requires unlearning.
        sametmax 9y ago
BadassFractal 9y ago
Elizabeth Loftus work on the subject is super interesting too, definitely recommended if you like the topic.
madamimadam 9y ago
"Every time you recall a memory, it becomes sensitive to disruption. Often that is used to incorporate new information into it." That's the blunt assessment from one of the world's leading experts on memory, Dr. Eric Kandel from Columbia University. http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/scientists-explore-the-illusion-of-memory-1.1353905 http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/scientists-explore-the-illusio...
- switch007 9y ago
  Yes but is he recalling his research correctly?
danieltillett 9y ago
When I was younger my memory was rock solid in that if I recalled something it was 100% true. As I got older my memory is not as certain, but at least I know my memory is not always correct. The loss of the reliability of my memory is probably the thing I most about my youth.
- anvandare 9y ago
  But how can you trust your memory when it tells you that your memory was once better? :>
  - danieltillett 9y ago
    Yes an interesting question. I do have written evidence from the time, but I also have a whole lot of independent memories of having a rock solid memory. I don’t seem to have false memories, just incomplete memories. It is not like my memory is bad now (it is still better than nearly everyone I know), it just is not as good as it used to be. I have to write things now in my diary and use bookmarks when I read, rather than just remember which page I was up to.
- jjeaff 9y ago
  Or could it be that as a youth, you were simply more sure of your memory? I have found that as I get older, I know much more than I ever have, but am also less sure than ever.
- gowld 9y ago
  https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/10/10/twain-father/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/10/10/twain-father/ "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."
snarfy 9y ago
When I was young I had reoccurring dreams for a few months about a domestic violence issue. Years later after my parents had passed, the stories started to come out. It turns out that incident was real. My mind completely blocked it out and turned it into a dream. It was then I knew to not trust my memories.
Ritsuko_akagi 9y ago
Personal story: I once remember seeing a spider in my childhood, as huge as an elephant, with its web spanning two large trees. I am sure I saw it, without a doubt. But my conscience says that it's simply impossible. I kept on telling my dad this story when I was a kid and he didn't believe it. But when I told it a long time later on, he too thinks he might have seen it. Maybe he formed those memories from my story.
- moccachino 9y ago
  is that you Frodo?
Jedd 9y ago
> I’ve been interested in memory for as long as I can remember. Eeh, so a wise-arse, eh? Great interview. I'm reading Kurt Anderson's 'Fantasyland (How America went Haywire)' ... and the idea of false memories features large. I wonder about the mentality or outlook of people who approach any session of false memory exploration with a 'too open' mind.
bloak 9y ago
Almost every time I watch a film for the second time I encounter a scene which seems to have been mysteriously messed up. I remember precisely how it was the first time I watched the film, but on the second occasion the dialogue and actions seem to have been changed so as to give an inferior overall result. I used to think that perhaps there were multiple versions of all these films, but every time I investigated I failed to discover any evidence of the existence of an alternative edition containing the details that I clearly remember, so I now think it's just the way my memory improves things. On the other hand, perhaps in some cases there really are different editions of the film that use different takes for certain scenes, though the films I watch twice are not usually the big-budget productions that are well-known for having multiple editions. Anyone else experience this?
- pokemongoaway 9y ago
  I recommend meditation. It's just delusion. Staying present is protection against actively overwriting fact with fiction.
- EliRivers 9y ago
  Relatedly, you might enjoy knowing of the Mandela Effect. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mandela_effect https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mandela_effect https://www.reddit.com/r/MandelaEffect/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MandelaEffect/
- js2 9y ago
  Sometimes I re-watch classic sports games that didn’t end well for my team hoping my memory was wrong and that the game ends differently than I remembered. It never has. :-(
saheb37 9y ago
An Indian Bollywood movie comes to my mind, the hero recreates an entire day by planting false memories in the minds of people around him, he exploits the power of visual sense to do so, which sticks quickly to your mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drishyam_(2015_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drishyam_(2015_film)
creaghpatr 9y ago
The past is a faulty memory and the future is an illusion of ego.
Isamu 9y ago
The vividness of a memory is also misleading; people are always sure some memory is accurate because they can vividly recall every detail. Except that the brain often will generate vivid details to replace or fill in gaps. E.g. I had extremely vivid memories of a movie I hadn't seen for years, so I was surprised when I watched it again and I was very wrong in those vivid details. I had only retained the outline of things, some snapshots of things.

230 points by Hooke 9y ago

I'd like to see a cross-section of data and metrics that acknowledge that some human beings lie. I searched the article for any mention of lie or untruth or manipulation and found nothing. Why is that concerning to me? >Ultimately, we want to understand the psychological mechanisms underlying these kinds of cognitive processes to generate models that can contribute to computer programs and artificial intelligence. "I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that." - Hal A great start would be to use the espoused rubric on Duke students and/or faculty to see if they are willing to lie about bribery in NCAA Basketball recruiting vis-a-vie success.

sdrothrock 9y ago
I agree, especially in this kind of study, where it's been acknowledged (e.g. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09658211.2017.1340286 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/09658211.2017.1...) that lies contribute to the formation of false memories. For example, another commenter reports that his mother seemingly remembers things that never happened; the first thing I thought (because of similar experiences) was that perhaps his mother had lied to friends about family coming over to visit.

Anon84 9y ago

The mengle effect ;)

cJ0th 9y ago
No, it's the Mandela effect. Either that or some weird parallel universe stuff.
- pluma 9y ago
  Weird, I'm pretty sure it was always called the Mengele effect but all Google results indicate it's always been called the Mandela effect. /s

SubiculumCode 9y ago

The classic Deese–Roediger–McDermott false memory study paradigm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deese%E2%80%93Roediger%E2%80%93McDermott_paradigm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deese%E2%80%93Roediger%E2%80%9... Basically, semantically related lures can lead to false memories for items not actually presented. Interestingly, younger children do not have this type of false memories as frequently. That is theorized to be because a)a reliance on verbatim memory traces, an b)under-developed semantic knowledge

adventured 9y ago
I'd argue a strong impact for young children, is that they haven't formed but a small fraction of the concepts that adults have. They simply are unable to generate as many or as elaborate of false memories because they lack the necessary array of concepts required for a higher level of creativity an older human can put together. Simply put, if you're aware of seven concepts, that's a hard limiting wall for your creativity when it comes to inventing false memories. What would the false memories consist of? They can only consist of what you know. And further restricting that limited set, is the ways in which you understand to arrange/rearrange what you know. You understand the concept table. You know the generally defining characteristics visually of a table. You know some of the ways a table is or can be used, however you only possess a limited knowledge of tables and how they can be used. That limited knowledge set of "table," restricts your ability to utilize the concept "table" in your false memories.
- SubiculumCode 9y ago
  I'm using 'semantic' as an umbrella term to include facts AND concepts. So we are saying very similar things.
- gowld 9y ago
  No one is aware of only 7 concepts after the first few days of life. Children are exceptionally "good" at mixing reality and fantasy and not having the critical thinking skills and knowledge to reject the reality of their dreams.
SubiculumCode 9y ago

oceanghost 9y ago

My mother in law is a master confabulator. She makes up stories out of whole cloth and absolutely believes them. They range from the mundane to the fantastic to the impossible. Some examples: One year she was disappointed that we didn't come to spend Christmas Eve with her. She never called to make plans because she imagined we'd just come over because "that's what we always do." In reality--we have never spent xmas eve together-- ever. She insists there was a ghost in her house which played pranks on her and-- in full view of two other people levitated a potted plant and threw it at her. and her masterpiece-- blaming me for her husband's death (of cancer) because I asked him to come to his daughter's graduation ceremony. I don't even know what to do with this one. The maddening thing is, these people absolutely believe these things. They will argue until they are blue and tell you that you're crazy. It's hard to even blame them in the end.

mehrdadn 9y ago
Regarding the ghost thing, I assume it wasn't the case here, but it could be a life-or-death situation... see this video (I don't want to spoil it so I won't say more): https://www.ted.com/talks/carrie_poppy_a_scientific_approach_to_the_paranormal https://www.ted.com/talks/carrie_poppy_a_scientific_approach...
- tedajax 9y ago
  There's something endlessly entertaining about the juxtaposition of a life or death situation and still not telling him outright just to maintain the suspense.
- dEnigma 9y ago
  Just in case anyone is interested (spoilers!): the talk is about a woman who thought her house was haunted, but it turned out she was suffering from carbon monoxide poisoning, due to a leak. Carbon monoxide can cause auditory hallucinations and feelings of dread and pressure on your chest. Edit: added spoiler warning
  - mehrdadn 9y ago

TipVFL 9y ago

The scariest thing about false memories is that police interrogation techniques are great at planting them. Yet another reason to never talk to the police. https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/people-can-be-convinced-they-committed-a-crime-they-dont-remember.html https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/releases/people-ca...

shams93 9y ago
There are people who are still in prison over the most ahsurb charges leveled in the heat of the 1980s Satanic Panic. Bogues right wing Christian therapists implanted false memories of satanic ritual abuse in children you have parents who are still in prison over the most bogus charges drovenby flase memory implants.
- jjeaff 9y ago
  I have read about cases like that in children, but they didn't really chalk it up to false memory implantation. It seemed mostly to come down to children just wanting to give the answer that the authority figure wants to hear. Or what the child perceives as what they want to hear.
  - boomboomsubban 9y ago
    That still sounds like false memory implanting. They're asking detailed questions and the child knows they want them to agree, so they say yes and start believing what the question said happened. I will say that the questioner wasn't necessarily trying to get this to happen, but they still would have implanted a memory.

lsc 9y ago

The interesting thing is that society really strongly rewards confidence, even when you are wrong... but having a certain amount of self-doubt, I think, is fundamental to sanity for all the reasons in the article; sometimes, even when I'm really sure, it turns out that I'm just... wrong.

sametmax 9y ago
Not just society, institutions and groups. But individuals as well. It's probably hardwired in our brain.
- lsc 9y ago
  Maybe? I find I have a "dangerous other" type reaction to people who seem too confident. I mean, I can get over it, but my initial reaction to a confident person tends to be quite negative; I pretty much immediately switch to "defense against salesmen" mode and only slowly start to consider that they might actually be competent after they have proven themselves, which is quite different, I think, from how I try to treat people in general.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    I found out that your reaction mainly rise among intellectuals, which are not the majority. Also it's only triggered with certain kind of display of confidence (like aggressive confidence, or confidence mixed with poor vocabulary/skill, etc). E.G: the confidence of a humble but strong expert does not trigger the reaction.
    - projektir 9y ago
      > I found out that your reaction mainly rise among intellectuals, which are not the majority. That very much implies it's not hardwired, though, just that it requires unlearning.
      - sametmax 9y ago

BadassFractal 9y ago

Elizabeth Loftus work on the subject is super interesting too, definitely recommended if you like the topic.

madamimadam 9y ago

"Every time you recall a memory, it becomes sensitive to disruption. Often that is used to incorporate new information into it." That's the blunt assessment from one of the world's leading experts on memory, Dr. Eric Kandel from Columbia University. http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/scientists-explore-the-illusion-of-memory-1.1353905 http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/scientists-explore-the-illusio...

switch007 9y ago
Yes but is he recalling his research correctly?

danieltillett 9y ago

When I was younger my memory was rock solid in that if I recalled something it was 100% true. As I got older my memory is not as certain, but at least I know my memory is not always correct. The loss of the reliability of my memory is probably the thing I most about my youth.

anvandare 9y ago
But how can you trust your memory when it tells you that your memory was once better? :>
- danieltillett 9y ago
  Yes an interesting question. I do have written evidence from the time, but I also have a whole lot of independent memories of having a rock solid memory. I don’t seem to have false memories, just incomplete memories. It is not like my memory is bad now (it is still better than nearly everyone I know), it just is not as good as it used to be. I have to write things now in my diary and use bookmarks when I read, rather than just remember which page I was up to.
jjeaff 9y ago
Or could it be that as a youth, you were simply more sure of your memory? I have found that as I get older, I know much more than I ever have, but am also less sure than ever.
gowld 9y ago
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/10/10/twain-father/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/10/10/twain-father/ "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years."

snarfy 9y ago

When I was young I had reoccurring dreams for a few months about a domestic violence issue. Years later after my parents had passed, the stories started to come out. It turns out that incident was real. My mind completely blocked it out and turned it into a dream. It was then I knew to not trust my memories.

Ritsuko_akagi 9y ago

Personal story: I once remember seeing a spider in my childhood, as huge as an elephant, with its web spanning two large trees. I am sure I saw it, without a doubt. But my conscience says that it's simply impossible. I kept on telling my dad this story when I was a kid and he didn't believe it. But when I told it a long time later on, he too thinks he might have seen it. Maybe he formed those memories from my story.

moccachino 9y ago
is that you Frodo?

Jedd 9y ago

> I’ve been interested in memory for as long as I can remember. Eeh, so a wise-arse, eh? Great interview. I'm reading Kurt Anderson's 'Fantasyland (How America went Haywire)' ... and the idea of false memories features large. I wonder about the mentality or outlook of people who approach any session of false memory exploration with a 'too open' mind.

bloak 9y ago

Almost every time I watch a film for the second time I encounter a scene which seems to have been mysteriously messed up. I remember precisely how it was the first time I watched the film, but on the second occasion the dialogue and actions seem to have been changed so as to give an inferior overall result. I used to think that perhaps there were multiple versions of all these films, but every time I investigated I failed to discover any evidence of the existence of an alternative edition containing the details that I clearly remember, so I now think it's just the way my memory improves things. On the other hand, perhaps in some cases there really are different editions of the film that use different takes for certain scenes, though the films I watch twice are not usually the big-budget productions that are well-known for having multiple editions. Anyone else experience this?

pokemongoaway 9y ago
I recommend meditation. It's just delusion. Staying present is protection against actively overwriting fact with fiction.
EliRivers 9y ago
Relatedly, you might enjoy knowing of the Mandela Effect. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mandela_effect https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mandela_effect https://www.reddit.com/r/MandelaEffect/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MandelaEffect/
js2 9y ago
Sometimes I re-watch classic sports games that didn’t end well for my team hoping my memory was wrong and that the game ends differently than I remembered. It never has. :-(

saheb37 9y ago

An Indian Bollywood movie comes to my mind, the hero recreates an entire day by planting false memories in the minds of people around him, he exploits the power of visual sense to do so, which sticks quickly to your mind. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drishyam_(2015_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drishyam_(2015_film)

creaghpatr 9y ago

The past is a faulty memory and the future is an illusion of ego.

Isamu 9y ago

The vividness of a memory is also misleading; people are always sure some memory is accurate because they can vividly recall every detail. Except that the brain often will generate vivid details to replace or fill in gaps. E.g. I had extremely vivid memories of a movie I hadn't seen for years, so I was surprised when I watched it again and I was very wrong in those vivid details. I had only retained the outline of things, some snapshots of things.