16 ms·

Microsoft again forced upgrades on Win10 PCs specifically set to block updates

118 points by sus_007 9y ago

some_account 9y ago
I don't believe this is accidental. It's a strategy to get updates out that help Microsoft, and then handle the PR afterwards. Most likely this won't get much attention and Microsoft gets away with it.
- kazinator 9y ago
  Pretty much the same as Mozilla Firefox. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/993765 https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/993765 "I've tried to disable updates through the settings, and without fail a day or so later it's updated to the latest version again. Any thoughts?"
  - e12e 9y ago
    Except - you can check out the (old) version you want, and build it yourself? Optionally disable the update code first... [ed: there's also Firefox esr for those that need an old (if not ancient) version: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/ ]
    - some_account 9y ago
      Doesn't matter if a handful of people get around it. The behavior for the masses will continue.
      - e12e 9y ago
        If one person is free to get around it, that person can help other people get around it. That's why there's four software freedoms, not one or two. With w10 there really isn't much of a real choice. [ed: https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/basics/4freedoms.en.html https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/basics/4freedoms.en.html ]
    - _Tev 9y ago
      > Except - you can check out the (old) version you want, and build it yourself? Optionally disable the update code first... I can't tell if you are serious or not. Really, this is nice example of programmers living in their bubble ... Or excellent trolling.
      - e12e 9y ago
        Fair enough... To a point. I can check it out, build it, and email you a copy. Or some other friend could. With Windows, all I can do is suggest you switch to Ubuntu or something.
- senectus1 9y ago
  Capitalism within a "he who pays the most wins" style democracy has the motto of : Do first and ask to be excused later
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
I always think that the "10 tough questions we got asked" [1] weren't really tough, and that it's still the same old Microsoft just presenting itself in a slightly different way. [1] https://www.gatesnotes.com/2018-Annual-Letter https://www.gatesnotes.com/2018-Annual-Letter
- some_account 9y ago
  I think nobody who was there in the previous era of Microsoft has any trouble seeing that they haven't changed. It's just because of a new generation without experience that they are getting away with rebranding themselves. People who go for Microsoft today will be locked in to their tech stack as always after a while.
aplorbust 9y ago
"A strategy devised by Myhrvold the salesman was just as significant. He laid it out in a memo to Gates in 1992: "Regular upgrades are important for both revenue and loyalty...A feeling of progress and improvement is necessary to keep users loyal...and an important way to produce revenue. Upgrades are the closest thing we have to an annual fee or subscription." source: Profile of Nathan Myrvhold https://www.1843magazine.com/content/features/myth-buster https://www.1843magazine.com/content/features/myth-buster
- dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
  Except that in this case they get the opposite result: people are just getting more and more angry.
dingo_bat 9y ago
This is the correct thing to do. They really must avoid another WinXP scenario where people were running 10 year old builds on internet connected PCs. If you connect to the internet, your device must be fully patched.
- some_account 9y ago
  Is it your computer or Microsofts? Because I really think the language in Windows speaks to you as just the guest, while Microsoft is taking care of your needs like a parent. I guess I'm very hostile to that idea since I grew up in a time when my computer was my computer, not the property of an American software organization to decide for me what is best.
  - Sacho 9y ago
    I am sympathetic to your stance - I don't like Microsoft overriding my decisions. My worry is that this stance will eventually lead to harsh penalties for operating unpatched software and getting hacked, and I feel that's not something most users would want. How do we reconcile these two competing problems? It doesn't seem fair to me to have all the power of ownership with none of the responsibility.
    - noselasd 9y ago
      Are they really competing problems ? Most users don't care, they get their updates when Microsoft decides to. The users that do care, and want or need to opt out of the updates know what they are doing and can take responsibility for their actions to block updates.
    - pjc50 9y ago
      > eventually lead to harsh penalties for operating unpatched software and getting hacked People have been saying this for years and there's never been any sign of it getting anywhere near a legislature. If someone's going to be made responsible it's going to be those that produced the product.
  - sheepdestroyer 9y ago
executesorder66 9y ago
I really don't understand people who think microsoft has changed. They still do shady shit all the time.
- colejohnson66 9y ago
  Because while Microsoft is one huge entity, it isn’t run the same in every department. While one department might be hugely user friendly, another won’t.
  - executesorder66 9y ago
    Which microsoft departments would you consider user friendly, and why?
    - hungerstrike 9y ago
      Nothing that Microsoft is doing is shady and every department is user friendly. There. I've argued my points as well as you have yours.
      - executesorder66 9y ago
        I guess you missed the fact that this whole thread is about them forcing shit updates onto their users, even though they set their OS to not auto-update. Would you call that user-friendly? What about these: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-desktop/a-case-for-microsoft-to-start-listening-to-its/f401cb2d-f325-45ea-8adb-788d23f1bd7b https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10... https://www.channelnews.com.au/big-bad-microsoft-sammed-again-over-unethical-practices/ https://www.channelnews.com.au/big-bad-microsoft-sammed-agai... https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opinion/2454935/microsofts-heavy-handed-windows-10-tactics-may-be-its-undoing https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opinion/2454935/microso... https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/microsoft-pushed-windows-10-results/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/microsoft-pushed-windows-10-re... I hope you'll notice the links in my comment, since they are pretty obvious. But then again you didn't notice the fucking article that started this thread, nor what the whole discussion is about.
skyzyx 9y ago
Good. People need to fucking update. Don’t be dumb.
- imtringued 9y ago
  I'm not sure the people are the problem. The problem is that microsoft pushes broken patches that simply do not work.
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  Oh yeah. Now when the "up"date stops disabling the computer's one and only graphics card (and mind you, this is a completely stock laptop, with all the usual "security" magic dust, without any user-messing around), we can talk about reenabling Windows Update. From here, it seems more like Windows "get yet another new computer you luser"date. (Hopefully the boxes with W7 won't catch yet another of the forced-WinX-upgrade "glitches")
- ImaCake 9y ago
  Sometimes those computers are running critical medical equipment that fails on the latest update. There are good reasons not to update. Try and have a little bit of an open mind so that you are not being dumb.
  - eropple 9y ago
    The only "dumb" thing I can think of is critical medical equipment being on a network that can hit Windows Update. It is on people Windows for production tasks that may be jeopardized by updates to responsibly handle themselves. I practice what I preach: my video encoder rig lives on a network that explicitly drops connections to Windows Update--but the machine is also firewalled away from the internet at large and only visits trusted websites as part of production tasks. Neither half of this responsibility is tenable without the other. I am expressly not saying that "forcing" Windows 10 updates on users is a good idea--but I'm sympathetic, and I'm not saying it's not--but if you are running something like "critical medical equipment", it should already be incumbent upon you to be doing it right.
  - CJefferson 9y ago
lowlevel 9y ago
My understanding was you couldn’t block the updates on windows 10. Looks like in creators update, they offered ability to block updates/and this has been ignored. As far as forcing updates, it’s kind of a double edged sword... noble to protect the masses, but honestly it’s been a terrible experience. We had a small ‘pilot’ team give it a try for a length of time. It seemed almost every time the updates install, we’re dealing with failed network drivers, no displays, blue screens and the odd boot failure. Not very good for a professional services staff under tight client deadlines. We’re not upgrading to Windows 10 at this time.
mdekkers 9y ago
I am so fucking done with Windows. Windows 10 has a lot of cool things I like and that are useful to me, but the only other time I felt such a complete lack of control over my systems was during a 3 month Apple Mac experiment (ended with an apple mac being flung from a 3rd story window). Research for the coming months: getting Linux running on my Surface Pro.
- boobsbr 9y ago
  You're so fucking done with Windows that you went out and bought a Surface Pro?
  - ccozan 9y ago
    Hey, hardware is OK. Getting Linux to run on it is kind of noble.
  - pritambaral 9y ago
    Could be the parent had a Surface Pro and is now looking to supplant the Windows on it with Linux.
    - mdekkers 9y ago
      That is the exact sequence of events. I'll miss onenote, which was one of the reasons for buying the surface, but I currently miss not feeling like it is my laptop even more
LifeLiverTransp 9y ago
Everytime they overcome the carefully crafted group policys and firewall settings- i ask myself- what is the difference to a rather run down linux distro here. The drivers do not work, i have no control over my system, the options they offer you- are like a toddlers toys- nice buttons to push, which the 'adults' can safely ignore on every update. The only thing still keeping me in windows is the ecosystem of software, they have held hostage. But there is a exit sign glowing brighter every thursday: https://www.vmware.com/?PID=3607085&PubCID=2786910 https://www.vmware.com/?PID=3607085&PubCID=2786910
- John_KZ 9y ago
  The only secure way to run windows at this point is to get an old CD or ISO and run it in a VM or air-gapped machine. Unfortunately a lot of software these days ignores the possibility of being disconnected from the internet - some folks won't even provide a real installer, just a downloader for the installer.
makecheck 9y ago
It is possible that their implementation of settings simply sucks, not checking the off-switch everywhere it should. This is one reason I don’t trust Facebook’s huge list of “settings” either, for instance. In complex systems there are just too many ways that a switch can be ignored, even if you do trust the intentions of the developer. A better solution for this (and Facebook) is to physically block at the client. And rather than providing “settings”, Microsoft should proactively encourage this too: the official FAQ for disabling updates should essentially be specifying the domains and IPs to block in routers for example.
ramijames 9y ago
This is part of why I will never go back to Windows. I want real control over my personal computer.
zeedee 9y ago
- Ignores options blocking automatic updates - Installs update assistant on your machine without permission - Starts downloading updates without giving you the option to stop other than killing the process (which just restarts again in a few minutes) - Re-installs update assistant if you try to delete/uninstall or break it - Re-starts update service within minutes even if you keep disabling it - Re-boots your machine without your permission Those were a lot of "accidents". Some of this behavior was on par with most viruses I've come across... Seems MS were really desperate to get this update out. Will be upgrading to windows 7/8.1 as soon as I get the time(until I am hopefully able to jump ship to linux).
- chopin 9y ago
  I can only encourage the switch. I switched to Linux Mint recently and it was smooth even for the not-so-computer-literate users in my family.
- dplgk 9y ago
  This worries me as I have a Win 10 computer in a house that runs off a mifi Hotspot. If windows blows through my monthly bandwidth with and unwanted undate, I'm gonna be very annoyed.
sidyapa 9y ago
Windows 10 updates in the past fortnight have consumed 9+ Gb of my data after failing again and again due to my choppy wifi connection (there's no other option available as I live in a university hostel). Having limited data per month, this has made me buy up extra data just to get through this month. Being a student, internet is indispensable and Microsoft doing this is really bad on their part.
- KMag 9y ago
  I find it crazy that resumable downloads aren't the table stakes for an automated upgrade system. Really, they also should be using erasure codes over UDP with TCP-friendly flow control in order to make more efficient use of noisy or high-latency channels.
  - exikyut 9y ago
    Huh. That sounds very interesting. What sort of protocols are used for this kind of thing, and what would I research if I wanted to do this myself?
- poizan42 9y ago
  Why don't you set your connection to metered then?
  - KMag 9y ago
    I think the OP is saying they are on a metered connection, and ran out of quota, so they had to go pony up more money in order to be able to finish their studies.
    - poizan42 9y ago
      Yes clearly, but they should set it as metered in Windows, like here: https://i.imgur.com/Y71LI5F.png https://i.imgur.com/Y71LI5F.png
      - deleted 9y ago
yolobey 9y ago
Oh boy, this happened to me despite using the enterprise edition. The system forced an upgrade, despite me doing everything to stop it, and every time the upgrade crashed and I had to roll back to the previous version. Every day. I spent a month like this, on an always-on system, trying to shut down the upgrade downloader from the task bar whenever I can after failing to stop it from settings, group policy, horsing around in powershell etc. Before that, I had also tried to make the upgrade work by doing it manually, updating drivers, unplugging all the peripherals etc. but it kept getting stuck halfway through. So I couldn't upgrade, and I couldn't not upgrade. Well last week there was an update to the update so I hoped at least the upgrade would work now and I would be done with this charade. Nope, it crashed again while upgrading, except this time there was no way to roll back and use my system. I am torn between cutting windows out completely and going back to windows 7.
- executesorder66 9y ago
  Laughs in Linux.
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    ... but your laughs are logged in binary format by systemd, so no-one can share your joy ;) FreeBSD forever :)
- lancefisher 9y ago
  Have you tried settting your internet connection to metered? https://www.howtogeek.com/226722/how-when-and-why-to-set-a-connection-as-metered-on-windows-10/ https://www.howtogeek.com/226722/how-when-and-why-to-set-a-c...
  - yolobey 9y ago
    I read about that method too, but unfortunately doesn't work if you're connected via ethernet.
    - 9y ago
nunodonato 9y ago
Aside from those running windows-exclusive software, I'm more and more boggled at the fact that some people still choose windows over other OSes. I couldn't imagine living with this sort of crap. To each their own, I guess
- dijit 9y ago
  It's a really nice development ecosystem I'm told. Our developers write exclusively Windows software (games company) and even though it costs us multiple millions of dollars in software licenses to run dedicated servers, the "cost of porting" is high enough to prevent people from doing it.
  - reacweb 9y ago
    No, it is not a nice development ecosystem. Visual studio is a good IDE for c++ and c# development. Eclipse is slightly better on Windows than on Linux. In Linux, the whole OS is development friendly.
    - dijit 9y ago
      Ok, but you must understand that I'm going on the word of 500~ developers. Maybe they selection bias themselves for Windows affinity but a lot have development experience with Linux too and smirk at things like epoll with absolute derision. I'm not a developer myself but seeing how they work on Windows is definitely impressive.
      - fzzzy 9y ago
        They smirk at epoll but are happy with IOCP? That seems... unlikely to me.
        dijit 9y ago
        I don't know, like I said, I'm not a developer myself, however I thought epoll was universally criticised for being poor. I researched a little after I was told (while pushing linux) that things like epoll were why they would never use it. I did manage to convince them to write their storage backend on FreeBSD because that uses kqueues and has ZFS. https://idea.popcount.org/2017-02-20-epoll-is-fundamentally-broken-12/ https://idea.popcount.org/2017-02-20-epoll-is-fundamentally-...
ShorsHammer 9y ago
This blew up on r/sysadmin today. Was a suggestion to null route all Microsoft domains, which is likely a decent option for an individual or small company. Cant see it going down well at large scale. https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/843esj/for_the_third_time_in_the_past_four_months/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/843esj/for_the_th...
smittywerben 9y ago
There is an overwhelming amount of "but the users NEED to update" in the Windows 10 community. Sorry but now users are running random scripts they find on the internet. This is worse than just "hacking the registry" or adding some group policy to disable auto-updates. I need security and no random shutdowns. I switched to linux about a year ago. Lots of complaints, yes, but no auto-updates. Example scripts (haven't used any): https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10/blob/master/scripts/fix-privacy-settings.ps1 https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10/blob/master/sc... https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater https://github.com/bmrf/tron https://github.com/bmrf/tron
- apexalpha 9y ago
  For every person running a script there are thousands now updating their computers who would've simply clicked 'no' on previous versions. Win10 is inherently more secure because of these forced updates. Think about WannaCry... it only worked _because_ people (and organisations) don't update. Now I understand that some people apparently need a system that will never update, but I agree with the policy of simply forcing the updates for 99% of the people.
  - chopin 9y ago
    For security fixes, that is. Not for adware, crapware or phone home capabilities (or resetting your preferences) bundled on top. Microsoft ruined the benefits of auto-updates for which it should be criticized much more. I believe Microsoft wants two things: A more homogeneous installation base and the beloved walled garden with phone home capabilities. Both are directly adverse to users interests. Therefore people don't want to update.
    - Karunamon 9y ago
      I think it’s a bit more mundane than that. Most people aren't putting that much thought into their computers after all. I think it's that Microsoft still hasn’t figured out how to do updates without requiring a reboot. Nobody wants to lose their working state or wait minutes to begin working to what appears at first glance to be pointless computer housekeeping.
Crontab 9y ago
Windows 10 is a total nightmare to those who value the control and privacy of what is supposed to be "their computer".
keldaris 9y ago
Well, the good news is they haven't managed to get through to my (severely eviscerated) Win10 Enterprise system yet - the only Win10 system I run. Still, I guess it's time to finally block the relevant domains in the router to be safe. After the next hardware upgrade, I'll finally be able to relegate Windows to a VFIO VM without network access. Looking forward to it more and more.
nkkollaw 9y ago
A few years ago you would have Apple fans bragging about how Apple is so much better, but now it's just as bad. You have Linux left, but then again I accidentally removed the wrong package the other day and I made my system completely non-functional, to the point that I had to reinstall from scratch.
sevensor 9y ago
As an HN reader, I believe I am qualified to comment on the strategic direction of a major multi-billion-dollar software company. By pushing to make Windows as idiot-proof as possible, Microsoft is zagging when it should zig. They've basically lost the mass market. The e-mail checking machine in the kitchen has been replaced by a tablet, and it doesn't run Windows. Their only hope is to position Windows as the OS for people who want to get serious work done, playing on their historical strength as the platform for office computers. To that end, they have to stop taking the people who use Windows all day long at work for granted, because it's never been easier to find an alternative, and if they lose the enterprise, Windows is over. And it's stuff like this I'm thinking of when I say "taking for granted." Telemetry. User-hostile update policies. Minecraft in the start menu. Pushing a Microsoft account for desktop login. These things are not office-user friendly, they do not say, "we take your need to do work on this computer seriously."
- thirdsun 9y ago
  That's one side of the story. There are still huge numbers of casual and home users who are much better off with automatic updates and the reflex to disable them due to being a minor annoyance has to go.
  - sevensor 9y ago
    > There are still huge numbers of casual and home users who are much better off with automatic updates and the reflex to disable them due to being a minor annoyance has to go. Outside of gamers, though, most of them couldn't care less about Windows and continue to use it because it's what came with the laptop. This is an irretrievably shrinking market. I admit Microsoft is in a bind here. A huge legacy install base that refuses to apply updates when asked nicely is a recipe for another Conficker. Their previous success in the consumer market has turned into a huge liability. But they can't fix that by having a punitive update process in Windows 10. All those old unpatched Windows 7 machines are still out there. The same users who don't apply patches opted out of the free windows 10 update.
    - 9y ago
jeroen 9y ago
Ironically, I just took a break from work to make a cup of coffee. On returning, I find that my (virtual) pc is "working on updates". It feels like the primary focus of Windows is no longer to do what the user wants, but to do what Microsoft wants.
makecheck 9y ago
A platform company ought to know better: at this point in history, peoples’ entire lives (or companies’ entire data sets) are intertwined with computers. You are not just talking about a software update anymore, you are directly inserting yourself into people’s lives/businesses. That means you should not just do whatever the hell you want. Microsoft doesn’t deserve 44th or 45th chances to get it right with decades of experience and billions of dollars. Does a law need to change here?
- justmyopinion1 9y ago
  No law needed, simply stop using it. Find alternatives which there are plenty. They will disappear. And our lives will be little better.
yorby 9y ago
Thanks to Windows updates, my 70yo dad finally asked me to install Linux on his laptop...
kayfox 9y ago
This is causing turmoil in the Audio-Visual industry when machines cant be relied upon not to try to upgrade in the middle of live events and critical times. It kinda sucks to have your lighting workstation or video switcher workstation have to upgrade and reboot because Microsoft decided to push a critical update that wont let itself be deffered for the period of time needed.
justmyopinion1 9y ago
I guess we just have to wait it out for a couple more years where windows would have suffered the same fate as Nokia and gone into the grave yard and Google upgrades their Chrome OS or Fuschia to be a desktop capable OS. Starting to bid a slow good bye to Microsoft. The moment they started forcing us into doing something that we don't want, their windows death cycle begins. Also why does windows take that much space as it doesn't offer that much feature compared to the software size in GBs. Has anyone seen those windows inside the VR, it is so dumb and stupid, y would anyone want to use windows in that way. They have lost it.

118 points by sus_007 9y ago

I don't believe this is accidental. It's a strategy to get updates out that help Microsoft, and then handle the PR afterwards. Most likely this won't get much attention and Microsoft gets away with it.

kazinator 9y ago
Pretty much the same as Mozilla Firefox. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/993765 https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/questions/993765 "I've tried to disable updates through the settings, and without fail a day or so later it's updated to the latest version again. Any thoughts?"
- e12e 9y ago
  Except - you can check out the (old) version you want, and build it yourself? Optionally disable the update code first... [ed: there's also Firefox esr for those that need an old (if not ancient) version: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/organizations/ ]
  - some_account 9y ago
    Doesn't matter if a handful of people get around it. The behavior for the masses will continue.
    - e12e 9y ago
      If one person is free to get around it, that person can help other people get around it. That's why there's four software freedoms, not one or two. With w10 there really isn't much of a real choice. [ed: https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/basics/4freedoms.en.html https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/basics/4freedoms.en.html ]
  - _Tev 9y ago
    > Except - you can check out the (old) version you want, and build it yourself? Optionally disable the update code first... I can't tell if you are serious or not. Really, this is nice example of programmers living in their bubble ... Or excellent trolling.
    - e12e 9y ago
      Fair enough... To a point. I can check it out, build it, and email you a copy. Or some other friend could. With Windows, all I can do is suggest you switch to Ubuntu or something.
senectus1 9y ago
Capitalism within a "he who pays the most wins" style democracy has the motto of : Do first and ask to be excused later

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago

I always think that the "10 tough questions we got asked" [1] weren't really tough, and that it's still the same old Microsoft just presenting itself in a slightly different way. [1] https://www.gatesnotes.com/2018-Annual-Letter https://www.gatesnotes.com/2018-Annual-Letter

some_account 9y ago
I think nobody who was there in the previous era of Microsoft has any trouble seeing that they haven't changed. It's just because of a new generation without experience that they are getting away with rebranding themselves. People who go for Microsoft today will be locked in to their tech stack as always after a while.

aplorbust 9y ago

"A strategy devised by Myhrvold the salesman was just as significant. He laid it out in a memo to Gates in 1992: "Regular upgrades are important for both revenue and loyalty...A feeling of progress and improvement is necessary to keep users loyal...and an important way to produce revenue. Upgrades are the closest thing we have to an annual fee or subscription." source: Profile of Nathan Myrvhold https://www.1843magazine.com/content/features/myth-buster https://www.1843magazine.com/content/features/myth-buster

dvfjsdhgfv 9y ago
Except that in this case they get the opposite result: people are just getting more and more angry.

dingo_bat 9y ago

This is the correct thing to do. They really must avoid another WinXP scenario where people were running 10 year old builds on internet connected PCs. If you connect to the internet, your device must be fully patched.

some_account 9y ago
Is it your computer or Microsofts? Because I really think the language in Windows speaks to you as just the guest, while Microsoft is taking care of your needs like a parent. I guess I'm very hostile to that idea since I grew up in a time when my computer was my computer, not the property of an American software organization to decide for me what is best.
- Sacho 9y ago
  I am sympathetic to your stance - I don't like Microsoft overriding my decisions. My worry is that this stance will eventually lead to harsh penalties for operating unpatched software and getting hacked, and I feel that's not something most users would want. How do we reconcile these two competing problems? It doesn't seem fair to me to have all the power of ownership with none of the responsibility.
  - noselasd 9y ago
    Are they really competing problems ? Most users don't care, they get their updates when Microsoft decides to. The users that do care, and want or need to opt out of the updates know what they are doing and can take responsibility for their actions to block updates.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    > eventually lead to harsh penalties for operating unpatched software and getting hacked People have been saying this for years and there's never been any sign of it getting anywhere near a legislature. If someone's going to be made responsible it's going to be those that produced the product.
- sheepdestroyer 9y ago

executesorder66 9y ago

I really don't understand people who think microsoft has changed. They still do shady shit all the time.

colejohnson66 9y ago
Because while Microsoft is one huge entity, it isn’t run the same in every department. While one department might be hugely user friendly, another won’t.
- executesorder66 9y ago
  Which microsoft departments would you consider user friendly, and why?
  - hungerstrike 9y ago
    Nothing that Microsoft is doing is shady and every department is user friendly. There. I've argued my points as well as you have yours.
    - executesorder66 9y ago
      I guess you missed the fact that this whole thread is about them forcing shit updates onto their users, even though they set their OS to not auto-update. Would you call that user-friendly? What about these: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-desktop/a-case-for-microsoft-to-start-listening-to-its/f401cb2d-f325-45ea-8adb-788d23f1bd7b https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10... https://www.channelnews.com.au/big-bad-microsoft-sammed-again-over-unethical-practices/ https://www.channelnews.com.au/big-bad-microsoft-sammed-agai... https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opinion/2454935/microsofts-heavy-handed-windows-10-tactics-may-be-its-undoing https://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/opinion/2454935/microso... https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/microsoft-pushed-windows-10-results/ https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/microsoft-pushed-windows-10-re... I hope you'll notice the links in my comment, since they are pretty obvious. But then again you didn't notice the fucking article that started this thread, nor what the whole discussion is about.

skyzyx 9y ago

Good. People need to fucking update. Don’t be dumb.

imtringued 9y ago
I'm not sure the people are the problem. The problem is that microsoft pushes broken patches that simply do not work.
Piskvorrr 9y ago
Oh yeah. Now when the "up"date stops disabling the computer's one and only graphics card (and mind you, this is a completely stock laptop, with all the usual "security" magic dust, without any user-messing around), we can talk about reenabling Windows Update. From here, it seems more like Windows "get yet another new computer you luser"date. (Hopefully the boxes with W7 won't catch yet another of the forced-WinX-upgrade "glitches")
ImaCake 9y ago
Sometimes those computers are running critical medical equipment that fails on the latest update. There are good reasons not to update. Try and have a little bit of an open mind so that you are not being dumb.
- eropple 9y ago
  The only "dumb" thing I can think of is critical medical equipment being on a network that can hit Windows Update. It is on people Windows for production tasks that may be jeopardized by updates to responsibly handle themselves. I practice what I preach: my video encoder rig lives on a network that explicitly drops connections to Windows Update--but the machine is also firewalled away from the internet at large and only visits trusted websites as part of production tasks. Neither half of this responsibility is tenable without the other. I am expressly not saying that "forcing" Windows 10 updates on users is a good idea--but I'm sympathetic, and I'm not saying it's not--but if you are running something like "critical medical equipment", it should already be incumbent upon you to be doing it right.
- CJefferson 9y ago

lowlevel 9y ago

My understanding was you couldn’t block the updates on windows 10. Looks like in creators update, they offered ability to block updates/and this has been ignored. As far as forcing updates, it’s kind of a double edged sword... noble to protect the masses, but honestly it’s been a terrible experience. We had a small ‘pilot’ team give it a try for a length of time. It seemed almost every time the updates install, we’re dealing with failed network drivers, no displays, blue screens and the odd boot failure. Not very good for a professional services staff under tight client deadlines. We’re not upgrading to Windows 10 at this time.

mdekkers 9y ago

I am so fucking done with Windows. Windows 10 has a lot of cool things I like and that are useful to me, but the only other time I felt such a complete lack of control over my systems was during a 3 month Apple Mac experiment (ended with an apple mac being flung from a 3rd story window). Research for the coming months: getting Linux running on my Surface Pro.

boobsbr 9y ago
You're so fucking done with Windows that you went out and bought a Surface Pro?
- ccozan 9y ago
  Hey, hardware is OK. Getting Linux to run on it is kind of noble.
- pritambaral 9y ago
  Could be the parent had a Surface Pro and is now looking to supplant the Windows on it with Linux.
  - mdekkers 9y ago
    That is the exact sequence of events. I'll miss onenote, which was one of the reasons for buying the surface, but I currently miss not feeling like it is my laptop even more

LifeLiverTransp 9y ago

Everytime they overcome the carefully crafted group policys and firewall settings- i ask myself- what is the difference to a rather run down linux distro here. The drivers do not work, i have no control over my system, the options they offer you- are like a toddlers toys- nice buttons to push, which the 'adults' can safely ignore on every update. The only thing still keeping me in windows is the ecosystem of software, they have held hostage. But there is a exit sign glowing brighter every thursday: https://www.vmware.com/?PID=3607085&PubCID=2786910 https://www.vmware.com/?PID=3607085&PubCID=2786910

John_KZ 9y ago
The only secure way to run windows at this point is to get an old CD or ISO and run it in a VM or air-gapped machine. Unfortunately a lot of software these days ignores the possibility of being disconnected from the internet - some folks won't even provide a real installer, just a downloader for the installer.

makecheck 9y ago

It is possible that their implementation of settings simply sucks, not checking the off-switch everywhere it should. This is one reason I don’t trust Facebook’s huge list of “settings” either, for instance. In complex systems there are just too many ways that a switch can be ignored, even if you do trust the intentions of the developer. A better solution for this (and Facebook) is to physically block at the client. And rather than providing “settings”, Microsoft should proactively encourage this too: the official FAQ for disabling updates should essentially be specifying the domains and IPs to block in routers for example.

ramijames 9y ago

This is part of why I will never go back to Windows. I want real control over my personal computer.

zeedee 9y ago

- Ignores options blocking automatic updates - Installs update assistant on your machine without permission - Starts downloading updates without giving you the option to stop other than killing the process (which just restarts again in a few minutes) - Re-installs update assistant if you try to delete/uninstall or break it - Re-starts update service within minutes even if you keep disabling it - Re-boots your machine without your permission Those were a lot of "accidents". Some of this behavior was on par with most viruses I've come across... Seems MS were really desperate to get this update out. Will be upgrading to windows 7/8.1 as soon as I get the time(until I am hopefully able to jump ship to linux).

chopin 9y ago
I can only encourage the switch. I switched to Linux Mint recently and it was smooth even for the not-so-computer-literate users in my family.
dplgk 9y ago
This worries me as I have a Win 10 computer in a house that runs off a mifi Hotspot. If windows blows through my monthly bandwidth with and unwanted undate, I'm gonna be very annoyed.

sidyapa 9y ago

Windows 10 updates in the past fortnight have consumed 9+ Gb of my data after failing again and again due to my choppy wifi connection (there's no other option available as I live in a university hostel). Having limited data per month, this has made me buy up extra data just to get through this month. Being a student, internet is indispensable and Microsoft doing this is really bad on their part.

KMag 9y ago
I find it crazy that resumable downloads aren't the table stakes for an automated upgrade system. Really, they also should be using erasure codes over UDP with TCP-friendly flow control in order to make more efficient use of noisy or high-latency channels.
- exikyut 9y ago
  Huh. That sounds very interesting. What sort of protocols are used for this kind of thing, and what would I research if I wanted to do this myself?
poizan42 9y ago
Why don't you set your connection to metered then?
- KMag 9y ago
  I think the OP is saying they are on a metered connection, and ran out of quota, so they had to go pony up more money in order to be able to finish their studies.
  - poizan42 9y ago
    Yes clearly, but they should set it as metered in Windows, like here: https://i.imgur.com/Y71LI5F.png https://i.imgur.com/Y71LI5F.png
    - deleted 9y ago

yolobey 9y ago

Oh boy, this happened to me despite using the enterprise edition. The system forced an upgrade, despite me doing everything to stop it, and every time the upgrade crashed and I had to roll back to the previous version. Every day. I spent a month like this, on an always-on system, trying to shut down the upgrade downloader from the task bar whenever I can after failing to stop it from settings, group policy, horsing around in powershell etc. Before that, I had also tried to make the upgrade work by doing it manually, updating drivers, unplugging all the peripherals etc. but it kept getting stuck halfway through. So I couldn't upgrade, and I couldn't not upgrade. Well last week there was an update to the update so I hoped at least the upgrade would work now and I would be done with this charade. Nope, it crashed again while upgrading, except this time there was no way to roll back and use my system. I am torn between cutting windows out completely and going back to windows 7.

executesorder66 9y ago
Laughs in Linux.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  ... but your laughs are logged in binary format by systemd, so no-one can share your joy ;) FreeBSD forever :)
lancefisher 9y ago
Have you tried settting your internet connection to metered? https://www.howtogeek.com/226722/how-when-and-why-to-set-a-connection-as-metered-on-windows-10/ https://www.howtogeek.com/226722/how-when-and-why-to-set-a-c...
- yolobey 9y ago
  I read about that method too, but unfortunately doesn't work if you're connected via ethernet.
  - 9y ago

nunodonato 9y ago

Aside from those running windows-exclusive software, I'm more and more boggled at the fact that some people still choose windows over other OSes. I couldn't imagine living with this sort of crap. To each their own, I guess

dijit 9y ago
It's a really nice development ecosystem I'm told. Our developers write exclusively Windows software (games company) and even though it costs us multiple millions of dollars in software licenses to run dedicated servers, the "cost of porting" is high enough to prevent people from doing it.
- reacweb 9y ago
  No, it is not a nice development ecosystem. Visual studio is a good IDE for c++ and c# development. Eclipse is slightly better on Windows than on Linux. In Linux, the whole OS is development friendly.
  - dijit 9y ago
    Ok, but you must understand that I'm going on the word of 500~ developers. Maybe they selection bias themselves for Windows affinity but a lot have development experience with Linux too and smirk at things like epoll with absolute derision. I'm not a developer myself but seeing how they work on Windows is definitely impressive.
    - fzzzy 9y ago
      They smirk at epoll but are happy with IOCP? That seems... unlikely to me.
      - dijit 9y ago
        I don't know, like I said, I'm not a developer myself, however I thought epoll was universally criticised for being poor. I researched a little after I was told (while pushing linux) that things like epoll were why they would never use it. I did manage to convince them to write their storage backend on FreeBSD because that uses kqueues and has ZFS. https://idea.popcount.org/2017-02-20-epoll-is-fundamentally-broken-12/ https://idea.popcount.org/2017-02-20-epoll-is-fundamentally-...

ShorsHammer 9y ago

This blew up on r/sysadmin today. Was a suggestion to null route all Microsoft domains, which is likely a decent option for an individual or small company. Cant see it going down well at large scale. https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/843esj/for_the_third_time_in_the_past_four_months/ https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/843esj/for_the_th...

smittywerben 9y ago

There is an overwhelming amount of "but the users NEED to update" in the Windows 10 community. Sorry but now users are running random scripts they find on the internet. This is worse than just "hacking the registry" or adding some group policy to disable auto-updates. I need security and no random shutdowns. I switched to linux about a year ago. Lots of complaints, yes, but no auto-updates. Example scripts (haven't used any): https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://gist.github.com/alirobe/7f3b34ad89a159e6daa1 https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10/blob/master/scripts/fix-privacy-settings.ps1 https://github.com/W4RH4WK/Debloat-Windows-10/blob/master/sc... https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater https://github.com/bmrf/tron https://github.com/bmrf/tron

apexalpha 9y ago
For every person running a script there are thousands now updating their computers who would've simply clicked 'no' on previous versions. Win10 is inherently more secure because of these forced updates. Think about WannaCry... it only worked _because_ people (and organisations) don't update. Now I understand that some people apparently need a system that will never update, but I agree with the policy of simply forcing the updates for 99% of the people.
- chopin 9y ago
  For security fixes, that is. Not for adware, crapware or phone home capabilities (or resetting your preferences) bundled on top. Microsoft ruined the benefits of auto-updates for which it should be criticized much more. I believe Microsoft wants two things: A more homogeneous installation base and the beloved walled garden with phone home capabilities. Both are directly adverse to users interests. Therefore people don't want to update.
  - Karunamon 9y ago
    I think it’s a bit more mundane than that. Most people aren't putting that much thought into their computers after all. I think it's that Microsoft still hasn’t figured out how to do updates without requiring a reboot. Nobody wants to lose their working state or wait minutes to begin working to what appears at first glance to be pointless computer housekeeping.

Crontab 9y ago

Windows 10 is a total nightmare to those who value the control and privacy of what is supposed to be "their computer".

keldaris 9y ago

Well, the good news is they haven't managed to get through to my (severely eviscerated) Win10 Enterprise system yet - the only Win10 system I run. Still, I guess it's time to finally block the relevant domains in the router to be safe. After the next hardware upgrade, I'll finally be able to relegate Windows to a VFIO VM without network access. Looking forward to it more and more.

nkkollaw 9y ago

A few years ago you would have Apple fans bragging about how Apple is so much better, but now it's just as bad. You have Linux left, but then again I accidentally removed the wrong package the other day and I made my system completely non-functional, to the point that I had to reinstall from scratch.

sevensor 9y ago

As an HN reader, I believe I am qualified to comment on the strategic direction of a major multi-billion-dollar software company. By pushing to make Windows as idiot-proof as possible, Microsoft is zagging when it should zig. They've basically lost the mass market. The e-mail checking machine in the kitchen has been replaced by a tablet, and it doesn't run Windows. Their only hope is to position Windows as the OS for people who want to get serious work done, playing on their historical strength as the platform for office computers. To that end, they have to stop taking the people who use Windows all day long at work for granted, because it's never been easier to find an alternative, and if they lose the enterprise, Windows is over. And it's stuff like this I'm thinking of when I say "taking for granted." Telemetry. User-hostile update policies. Minecraft in the start menu. Pushing a Microsoft account for desktop login. These things are not office-user friendly, they do not say, "we take your need to do work on this computer seriously."

thirdsun 9y ago
That's one side of the story. There are still huge numbers of casual and home users who are much better off with automatic updates and the reflex to disable them due to being a minor annoyance has to go.
- sevensor 9y ago
  > There are still huge numbers of casual and home users who are much better off with automatic updates and the reflex to disable them due to being a minor annoyance has to go. Outside of gamers, though, most of them couldn't care less about Windows and continue to use it because it's what came with the laptop. This is an irretrievably shrinking market. I admit Microsoft is in a bind here. A huge legacy install base that refuses to apply updates when asked nicely is a recipe for another Conficker. Their previous success in the consumer market has turned into a huge liability. But they can't fix that by having a punitive update process in Windows 10. All those old unpatched Windows 7 machines are still out there. The same users who don't apply patches opted out of the free windows 10 update.
  - 9y ago

jeroen 9y ago

Ironically, I just took a break from work to make a cup of coffee. On returning, I find that my (virtual) pc is "working on updates". It feels like the primary focus of Windows is no longer to do what the user wants, but to do what Microsoft wants.

makecheck 9y ago

A platform company ought to know better: at this point in history, peoples’ entire lives (or companies’ entire data sets) are intertwined with computers. You are not just talking about a software update anymore, you are directly inserting yourself into people’s lives/businesses. That means you should not just do whatever the hell you want. Microsoft doesn’t deserve 44th or 45th chances to get it right with decades of experience and billions of dollars. Does a law need to change here?

justmyopinion1 9y ago
No law needed, simply stop using it. Find alternatives which there are plenty. They will disappear. And our lives will be little better.

yorby 9y ago

Thanks to Windows updates, my 70yo dad finally asked me to install Linux on his laptop...

kayfox 9y ago

This is causing turmoil in the Audio-Visual industry when machines cant be relied upon not to try to upgrade in the middle of live events and critical times. It kinda sucks to have your lighting workstation or video switcher workstation have to upgrade and reboot because Microsoft decided to push a critical update that wont let itself be deffered for the period of time needed.

justmyopinion1 9y ago

I guess we just have to wait it out for a couple more years where windows would have suffered the same fate as Nokia and gone into the grave yard and Google upgrades their Chrome OS or Fuschia to be a desktop capable OS. Starting to bid a slow good bye to Microsoft. The moment they started forcing us into doing something that we don't want, their windows death cycle begins. Also why does windows take that much space as it doesn't offer that much feature compared to the software size in GBs. Has anyone seen those windows inside the VR, it is so dumb and stupid, y would anyone want to use windows in that way. They have lost it.