20 ms·

How Your Returns Are Used Against You at Best Buy, Other Retailers

182 points by QUFB 9y ago

gknoy 9y ago
So, in order to prevent fraud, companies like Best Buy contract out to companies like Retail Equation to evaluate (and deny) returns. While I can appreciate why they feel it's necessary, this seems like the kind of thing that credit card chargebacks were made to combat.
- larrik 9y ago
  Exactly, I would expect this to be a 100% legit chargeback case, which is going to hurt them in the long run.
  - ben509 9y ago
    From their policy: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy/pcmcat260800050014.c?id=pcmcat260800050014 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-pol... "Like many retailers, we use a third party to help prevent losses by detecting improper returns, and, except where prohibited, require a valid ID for all store returns that lack proof of purchase. Reimbursements on returns lacking proof of purchase may be denied or limited and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed." And the Visa guidelines for chargebacks, page 28 lists the reason codes: https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/chargeback-management-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/chargeback-... My read puts Best Buy on solid footing here. If you're just returning it because you're unsatisfied, Visa doesn't seem to consider that valid for a chargeback. If it's defective and you have proof of purchase, you had enough evidence that BB would accept the return.
    - cjworden 9y ago
      The last bullet point of that section states: "The cardholder claims that the terms of the sale were misrepresented by the merchant". It also states in their return policy disclosure section: "For card-present transactions, Visa will accept that proper disclosure has occurred before a transaction is completed if the following (or similar) disclosure statements are legibly printed on the face of the transaction receipt near the cardholder signature area or in an area easily seen by the cardholder" I'd argue that unless the receipt also mentions Best Buy's use of a third party to potentially deny a return, they have failed to properly disclose their return policy, making a valid claim that Best Buy misrepresented their terms of sale.
    - gknoy 9y ago
      Wow, that document is really informative. Thanks for sharing that. Great point about not-liking-it being an insufficient threshold for returns. If I were blocked from returning things due to returning, say, a camera or a trio of phone cases that weren't the right ones, and then later had a defective washing machine or monitor, it seems like Code 53 (Not as Described or Defective Merchandise) would be a valid reason for a return, though. But, as others have said ... this seems like a compelling reason not to even be a customer.
    - larrik 9y ago
      "Not as Described" generally covers "unsatisfied". The return policy being not as described may even qualify. Visa tends to side with the cardholder on chargebacks more than is probably fair, too.
    - 15155 9y ago
      > and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed Does this imply they just pocket the sales tax or receive it as a refund in some way?
      - gruez 9y ago
        Not an accountant, but my understanding is that the retailer is collecting the tax on behalf of the state. Thus if they're explicitly stating they're not refunding the sales tax, they have to give it to the state, because those funds weren't theirs to begin with.
        gefh 9y ago
        But if they accept the return, there is now no sales tax due to the state? Customer should get 100% back.
        bluGill 9y ago
        They have no way of knowing WHAT state. You might have bought the widget in a different state with lower sales tax.
        FireBeyond 9y ago
        Yeah, that's an odd one. I bought a Christmas gift for a family member at Toys R Us in King County WA and exchanged it in another county. They refunded me 12c for the difference in sales tax between counties.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - saberworks 9y ago
      It's really interesting that their web site says you only need to show ID if you don't have proof of purchase (and it's only in the fine print at the bottom, the top indicates you need it in any case). I recently had to return a defective router ($350) and the receipt said I needed ID to return it. Of course, you don't get the receipt until after you purchase the item otherwise I would have just ordered the router from Amazon. Anyway, I did not want to show an ID, I had my receipt, I had only bought this thing a few days prior, it was broken, and I didn't want my driver's license in yet another set of databases just waiting to be hacked. However, the customer service person was super nice and didn't even ask me for my ID.
    - mindslight 9y ago
      They would be on shaky ground with credit cards, which is why these terms state they only apply when "proof of purchase" is lacking - a CC purchase has intrinsic proof of purchase. Where this surveillance system has become a major pain in my ass is returns over 90 days at Home Depot. The last period I had intensive HD purchases, I could count on returning stuff [0] late that I'd rather not stock, eating the sales tax, and then spending the store credit. Now it's be sure to return within 90 days or plan on keeping it to not end up flagged. Also, I have personally stuck black tape [1] over the serial number and the barcodes on my drivers' license. When asked to show ID, this lets me exercise judgment about whether the rarer bits are revealed. This is especially handy at unknown liquor stores where the cashier will not have the courtesy to even ask before swiping your license in an electronic reader, backhauling it into the surveillance matrix. [0] Unopened, new condition, completely resalable. [1] Sharpie-colored masking tape. Electrical tape tends to be transparent to IR!
      - WrtCdEvrydy 9y ago
        You can just demag it
      - sjruckle 9y ago
        Not to detract from your overall point, but electrical tape isn't transparent to IR. Quite the opposite, in fact. It doesn't matter though, because the scanners don't use IR. They use a red laser which is in the visible spectrum. Any tape that visibly blocks the barcode will work.
        mindslight 9y ago
        Well then, I must have been unlucky with the brand I attempted to use as a flag for an opto interrupter - it definitely passed enough IR for the thing to not trip. And yeah, red lasers are quite common. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of a reader using IR - my experience with the opto left me paranoid on the matter.
        sjruckle 9y ago
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      Purchases made within 50 miles of your home are always chargeback eligible.
    - tbyehl 9y ago
      Amex and Mastercard provide return protection for items up to a few hundred dollars. Many Visa issuers offer it as well.
- astura 9y ago
  Many credit cards come with return protection, so if the retailer won't accept a return you can file a return protection claim. I did that once before with AMEX: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/features-benefits/policies/return-protection-terms.html https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/features-ben...
jasode 9y ago
From the infographic: "returning an item just when a store closes" Can anyone explain why that specific behavior is a red flag?
- keebEz 9y ago
  Minimizes the time employees are willing to spend evaluating the return.
  - RickS 9y ago
    Also maximizes the time to discovery if there are real issues
- LgWoodenBadger 9y ago
  When I was in the point-of-sale software industry a decade ago, this was one of the rules of the fraud-detection system our software offered. Employees in cahoots often "returned" unsold merchandise shortly before, or immediately after, store closing. Mainly due to legitimate customers not being present. There were a surprising number of rules that we had developed over time, usually in response to discovery of all the various schemes that people came up with. Buying-then-returning-within-X-minutes was another.
- ceejayoz 9y ago
  "I really don't want to get home 30 minutes late because I was arguing with an irate customer if I reject this return."
keebEz 9y ago
Customer LTV applied to Retail. Amazon can already do it, so this is just catch up.
- r00fus 9y ago
  How does Amazon apply customer LTV?
  - 13of40 9y ago
    In my case, I returned three relatively expensive items in a year and I got a warning email from them. Googled the text of the mail and it turns out it's the first step to getting your Prime account banned, and based on the contract they probably wouldn't have to pro-rate the subscription fees.
  - keebEz 9y ago
    They know all your purchases, home location, work location (most likely as people deliver to work all the time), and all your returns, as starters. How do they actually make use of it to upsell, etc.? Their recommendation system.
an4rchy 9y ago
It sounds like there might be a few false positives in this algorithm, which negatively impacts the retailers from a publicity standpoint. Also, can someone verify this but I thought that systems like this can be easily manipulated,i.e buying with cash or buying online with PayPal, different credit card etc, as that is PII and companies can't use it to identify you or reject your claims, unless tied to a specific loyalty account.
- ams6110 9y ago
  That's why they are always asking for your email address or phone number when you check out. I always decline.
- randomname123 9y ago
  Yes, this is a very common problem actually, it's called return fraud [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud
ben509 9y ago
I'm more surprised to see that clothing retailers weren't listed. It's incredibly common for "customers" to buy clothes and return them the next day.
- giobox 9y ago
  Returned clothes are surely significantly easier to restock than opened high ticket electrical goods. The typical wholesale values involved are probably very different too. Clothing is further complicated by the fact that not having time to try something on in store and returning it later is typically considered a pretty legitimate and widely practiced shopping pattern, and one that most clothing stores encourage, at least in my experience. I'd imagine red flagging this would materially impact sales overall in some places.
- dawnerd 9y ago
  I do that mostly because the stores I go to for whatever reason either don't have their changing rooms open or don't have them at all. Besides, it's much easier to try something on at home the way I'd normally wear it than quickly putting it on in a store. It's also not like returned clothes are of no value. I've seen plenty of stores put returns right back on the racks as if they're new.
  - ben509 9y ago
    That's fair. I've talked to some people working in retail who mentioned that some people abused the policy mercilessly.
    - dawnerd 9y ago
      No doubt, and thats why some places just put restocking fees around certain types of clothing (formalwear/around school events/ etc)
  - jancsika 9y ago
    The OP almost certainly did not put scare quotes around "customer" to describe trying on clothes at home in edge cases where it's impossible or burdensome to try them on in store. (There's also the common case of regular customers who are busy and want to try lots of clothes at the same time, and the clerk makes a sales quote so they can bring up whatever didn't work for them later.) OP is almost certainly talking about "customers" who buy a piece of clothing specifically to wear to a particular event out in the elements (party/dinner/camping/etc.), then try to return that piece for full credit after the elements have visibly changed the wear/fit/look/smell/elasticity of said clothing. You have nothing to explain if a shop lets you purchase clothing to try at home in controlled clean conditions and then return it if you feel it doesn't work for you. If you also bring back non-defective clothing that is no longer in a condition to be sold for full price, you are a meanie.
misterbowfinger 9y ago
non-paywall https://outline.com/HKktYH https://outline.com/HKktYH
- forgotmypw 9y ago
  Blank page for me?
  - Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
    Are you using NoScript or something similar?
    - forgotmypw 9y ago
      Yes, I have JS disabled.
logfromblammo 9y ago
We cannot accept your return, Mr. Costanza; this book has been flagged. This only stops gormless shoppers from making reasonable returns. Everyone else will do a chargeback for credit purchases, or file a complaint in small claims for cash purchases. The moxious will call their credit card company right at the returns desk and ask if they need a photograph of the posted return policy.
- gknoy 9y ago
  > The moxious will call their credit card company right at the returns desk and ask if they need a photograph of the posted return policy. Thank you! That's an excellent suggestion!
- kalcode 9y ago
  Well if you do and you constantly do chargebacks then you will get hit with fraud from your credit card company.
  - cwkoss 9y ago
    What does it mean for a CC company to 'hit' someone 'with fraud'?
    - kalcode 9y ago
      They hit you with 'Chargeback fraud'. They can cancel your card, put it on your credit history redcord and can choose to press charges.
      - logfromblammo 9y ago
        Has this actually happened to you or any of your acquaintances? The retail-dispute resolution clauses of most credit agreements are very biased towards the consumer. If you can document that you made at least one good-faith effort at resolving the issue yourself before requesting that the credit issuer handle it for you, then the retailer has to overcome the presumption that the customer is always right in the arbitration. As it's all about the money and private agreements, it is always possible that someone who has more of it than you could use it to buy a more favorable outcome. But it is also very unlikely that anyone would ever see a criminal indictment over credit fraud before the damages exceed thousands of dollars. No credit company wants to lose customers because they got a reputation for grassing on their customers, but they would want to discourage their petty frauds--they know they have some, with statistical certainty--from growing worse by occasionally prosecuting the worst of the grand frauds. If HSBC can knowingly launder drug money, and Wells Fargo can knowingly open fake accounts, a credit bank can knowingly screw the retailer when one of their credit customers does a bogus chargeback just because the cashier was rude at the checkout. I won't say bogus chargebacks are not a problem, but there is a threshold below which it does not negatively affect the revenue of the bank, so no one there will be paid to care about it. A computer program might evaluate it. It might get randomly selected for human auditing. And most people are mostly honest, so the fraud rate would still be low, even if no one policed it more than a token amount. The credit banks's mission isn't to catch the frauds; it's to make money. So they catch just the right amount of frauds in order to make the most money.
maerF0x0 9y ago
This could also be "how retailers are going to lose my business"
- daveFNbuck 9y ago
  If you're taking advantage of returns in a way that hurts retailers, they want to lose your business. Chances are that's not you, but it's probably still worth it if they can eliminate the free riders.
  - xienze 9y ago
    Seriously. If you're like any normal person and occasionally return stuff, you're fine. If you're just "renting" products 30 days at a time (yes, this really does happen), retailers don't want anything to do with you. If you fall into this second category, instead of getting all indignant, perhaps stop taking advantage of return policies and retailers won't shun you.
    - softawre 9y ago
      Did you read the article? The guy who was flagged had spent thousands at the store, and bought 3 phone cases for 80$, then returned them as his only return ever, and got flagged.
      - lotsofpulp 9y ago
        That's one side of the story, according to the person who was denied future refunds.
        gknoy 9y ago
        The return history image he presented seems to corroborate it.
        Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
        Yup. Guilty people tend to not admit to their crimes. Go to the forums of any major online game such as League of Legends or World of Warcraft and you'll semi-frequently find posts from players complaining about being banned for no reason at all until a moderator or CS rep finally has to step in and say "Actually, here's exactly what you did to get banned" and it's always a legitimate reason.
Slansitartop 9y ago
Can someone summarize? I don't have a WSJ account.
- gruez 9y ago
  https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-your-returns-are-used-against-you-at-best-buy-other-retailers-1520933400 https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/article...
  - magic_beans 9y ago
    Well that's a neat trick to get around the paywall... Thanks!
    - Ziomislaw 9y ago
      It's easier to just click 'web' link here on HN. It will show you google search results, and clicking on those bypasses the paywall too.
mnm1 9y ago
Amazon does this as well. I don't know why they would this and treat customers this way, especially customers who purchase a lot of things from them, but I do know it's not fraud. It's not even clear how this is legal since the return clause is part of a contract. But they will close your account, prematurely end your Prime membership, and there's nothing you can do about it. Nor can you know when this will happen. That's how much companies like Amazon and Best Buy value their customers. To say they treat them like shit is an understatement.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- daodedickinson 9y ago
  Yup, I got flagged and only ever returned items THAT WERE NOT EVEN THE LISTED PRODUCT THAT I ORDERED. And rather than just punishing me by not letting me buy from randos not fulfilled by Amazon, they go all out in excommunicating me from the ~13% and growing of civilization that Amazon controls. And they give customers the same amount of "strikes" (trying to get scams or seller mistakes resolved) no matter the volume of purchases. But that's the future. These companies operate like the Chinese Communist Party and soon all of society will be run on this sort of repression.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  Businesses don't have to transact with people that cause them to lose money.
  - John_KZ 9y ago
    Why the hell did your other comment about pregnant women got flagged?
- btian 9y ago
  Imagine a "customer" hates Amazon, he can get Amazon to lose a lot of money by buying a lot of things, open them, then return everything. Amazon won't be a sustainable business if it can't reject "customers".
neonate 9y ago
http://archive.is/Swq7X http://archive.is/Swq7X
- ct0 9y ago
  the key to the pay wall is in the above link. thanks
  - parliament32 9y ago
    I'm getting a paywall and there doesn't seem to be a key in the link.
    - softawre 9y ago
      It seems to be based on referrer. You can save the article to Pocket, open Pocket, click "go to original", and bypass.
googlryas 9y ago
Why does returning an item right before a store closes hurt your score? (per the infographic in the article)
- gruez 9y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577824
vinhboy 9y ago
> He asked the firm to lift the ban, but it declined. That's bad business. I think giving customers a second chance before shutting them out is a better idea.
mrfusion 9y ago
Is anyone else finding a lot of the stuff they buy has minor wear and tear ie probably was a return at some point? The brand “new” pressure washer I bought was covered with scuff marks.
- kabdib 9y ago
  I stopped buying things like motherboards, RAM and so forth from Frys quite some time ago. Just too much stuff was returns, and not marked so. (I once bought a desktop computer from them. It was, unsurprisingly, busted -- it wouldn't boot, and the OS installs I tried all failed. I had to threaten to reverse charges on my credit card when they refused to take it back; their argument was it was broken and they were unable to put it back on the shelf and sell it to another customer!)
  - raincom 9y ago
    In old days at Frys (around 2001), Fry's used to check the returned products (mother boards, memory, hard drives, etc) and check the serial number of mother board/memory/hard drive against the serial number on the package. They also used to do quick retest of returned motherboards, put them back in the package, shrink wrap it, then place them back on shelves. People started complaining about this, as customers have no way of knowing whether a package is new or not. Around 2007, Fry's started putting lables on returned packages. This way, one can know whether something is returned or not. Some customers used to replace things by keeping the same new package.
    - DrScump 9y ago
      shrink wrap it, then place them back on shelves I've never heard of this at Fry's; in CA, it would be illegal. And I've been shopping there since the original site on Oakmead. (The current Sunnyvale store is the 3rd she for the flagship.) If you lack a receipt but bought with a card, knowing the card used and the store bought at is enough for them to look it up.
  - giobox 9y ago
    My recent experiences (past 2 years) in Fry's are the opposite - the returned stuff is clearly marked and 10% off. Given the sheer quantity of stuff on the shelves marked this way I have to assume they are probably being honest about it most of the time.
noonespecial 9y ago
Is this behavior stated explicitly in the store's return policy? If not, that sounds a little like fraud. Its a kind of bait and switch: "Shop with confidence because of our awesome return policy!... except for you, we don't serve 'your kind' here"
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- gruez 9y ago
  Of the examples given in the story, all of them mentioned a "warn" before being unable to return. So it's not as if they weren't given advance notice.
  - pavon 9y ago
    The story wasn't clear of whether just future purchases would not be allowed to be returned, or if they were banned from returning anything (including previous purchases) after the warning.
    - gknoy 9y ago
      The text of the warning seemed to indicate that, for the next 365 days, no returns would be allowed. I suspect that is intended to be interpreted as any returns, even if it were for something already purchased.
- adrr 9y ago
  Home depot advertises: "Be happy 100% with your purchase or we'll take it back. No problem.". Sure sounds like denying people the ability to return items is false advertising at best or blatant fraud.
avs733 9y ago
"You could do things that are inside the posted rules, but if you are violating the intent of the rules, like every item you’re purchasing you’re using and then returning, then at a certain point in time you become not a profitable customer for that retailer,” Uh...I'm not a lawyer but I really don't think that interpretation of contract law would hold up in court. They offered a contract to purchase an item, the consumer accepted it. Making that contract then reliant on their intent rather than whats written seems a pretty obvious violation of Contra proferentem...am I nuts?
- gweinberg 9y ago
  Most likely the contract doesn't require them to accept returns at all.
  - avs733 9y ago
    I think that is a really anti-consumer way to read this: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-pol...
    - lotu 9y ago
      Dead link
    - kevin_b_er 9y ago
      Link dead. It now a return "promise".
    - grkvlt 9y ago
      From the actual link [0] Like many retailers, we use a third party to help prevent losses by detecting improper returns [...] Reimbursements on returns lacking proof of purchase may be denied or limited and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed. [...] If we caution you or deny your return, you may request a copy of your Return Activity Report by calling 1-888-224-1920 So, they don't promise to unconditionally return items. I wonder what a 'Return Activity Report' looks like? 0. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy/pcmcat260800050014.c?id=pcmcat260800050014 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-pol...
gregmac 9y ago
This is actually one of the major advantages retail still has over online purchases: returns to online providers require paying for shipping, and the initial shipping costs aren't refunded either. Even with 'free shipping', the cost of shipping + everyone else's returns is just built in. That said, this seems like just bad policy that leads to the problem. Why should stores allow returns without a receipt or other proof (lookup using credit card)? That seems to be the major issue. If they require proof of purchase, it means they at least aren't refunding theft or products purchased from other stores. Accepting returns of opened but non-damaged product that can't be resold (eg: missing parts/packaging, obviously used, etc) also seems to be opening themselves up to abuse. Of course, how they handle this has to take into consideration the fact that easy returns are a competitive advantage. This is maybe where the analytics firm can step in, to help identify people that frequently do this.
- kolpa 9y ago
  > returns to online providers require paying for shipping, and the initial shipping costs aren't refunded either. Amazon offers various kinds of free / flat-price shipping, and free return-shipping for flawed products > Even with 'free shipping', the cost of shipping + everyone else's returns is just built in. Delivering a package to a local retailer is customer-paid shipping, just in effort/gas/wear-and-tear, not simple cash.
  - atonse 9y ago
    > Delivering a package to a local retailer is customer-paid shipping, just in effort/gas/wear-and-tear, not simple cash. Potentially. In the case of Home Depot, I usually take my returns when I need to go anyway to shop there. Kills two birds with one stone. Speaking of which, I've got 3 bags of stuff to return. Hope they take it back! Not stuff I've used (like I wasn't sure what size window latch I needed, so I bought 4 different sizes, checked them on the window without opening the package, and have to return the other 3) This kind of stuff is such a boon with kids. I don't have time for 3 trips to Home Depot in one day. But I do over the course of 3-4 weeks.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
unstatusthequo 9y ago
Great idea, brick and mortar retail. That looks ought to help speed up your Amazon-sponsored demise. Amazon's return policy is so flexible it sets a very high bar for customer service
- ConceptJunkie 9y ago
  Amazon is, or was until very recently, running at a loss. Most companies can't afford to do that for long.
  - jazoom 9y ago
    This behaviour is illegal in Australia and many retailers still manage to make a profit.
  - hidenotslide 9y ago
    Depends how you define loss, a lot of people would disagree with you. They have had significant positive free cash flow for a long time, over a decade at least.[1] But since they reinvest the profits this becomes low net income. [1] https://ycharts.com/companies/AMZN/free_cash_flow https://ycharts.com/companies/AMZN/free_cash_flow
  - skellera 9y ago
    https://www.recode.net/2018/2/1/16961598/amazon-jeff-bezos-record-profit-11-quarter-q4-2017-earnings https://www.recode.net/2018/2/1/16961598/amazon-jeff-bezos-r...
- vkou 9y ago
  So, regular Amazon customers are subsidising customers that are abusing returns? And you, as a regular customer are happy for this? Why? Also, if you think Amazon won't use a secret, proprietary algorithm to identify and ban people abusing their return policies (with limited to no appeal or recourse), I have a bridge to sell you.
  - chillwaves 9y ago
nathantotten 9y ago
I frequently shop at Home Depot. Last year I was remodeling my bathroom and I had some extra parts (unused) and I went to return them. I was mistakenly flagged by Retail Equation and several of the things I was returning were denied. It was extremely frustrating as I had bought thousands of dollars of merchandise and was literally trying to return less than $40 of stuff. I asked to talk to the store manager, she said there was nothing she could do. To me, the real problem with these systems is that relying on them too much removes the ability for people to provide good customer service. Fortunately for me, I don't give up so easily. I guessed the email address of the CEO of Home Depot and wrote him. The next day the VP of Loss Prevention called me and then called the store. They let me return my merchandise the next time I tried. ;)
- ng-user 9y ago
  Was the email you guessed perhaps first.last@homedepot.ca?
  - Edmond 9y ago
    you can mostly guess these emails because they all use predictable patterns. The trick I use is to just find any random persons email with a google search (ex "@homedepot.com") and use the same pattern for the person I am trying to reach at the given organization, it works most of the time.
  - nathantotten 9y ago
    I honestly don’t think many executives are trying to hide their emails that hard. Steve Jobs always got a lot of press when he would reply to customers, but the reality is that executives actually value this communication. It helps them learn of problems they may otherwise be insulated from. Of course executives generally also don’t make their email too readily available because then everyone would contact them and that wouldn’t scale. I have emailed various executives over the years and don’t recall it ever not working. It even worked with Comcast to my surprise - the next day someone from some department like “executive customer service” contacted me.
donatj 9y ago
Aren't there consumer protection laws against this sort of thing? Update: I guess it varies state by state http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/customer-returns-and-refund-laws-by-state.html http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/customer-r... Minnesota, where I (and Best Buy Headquarters) are located requires: "A seller must clearly and conspicuously display written notice of its policy in boldface type of a minimum size of 14 points. If a seller fails this requirement, cash refunds are required of goods that are acceptable for return." Also, couldn't fraudsters circumvent this entirely by paying in cash?
- cloudkj 9y ago
  To me it seems very similar to credit reporting agencies, so I would imagine much of it falls under the same buckets, legal or otherwise.
- chrishas35 9y ago
  > Also, couldn't fraudsters circumvent this entirely by paying in cash? Are they doing it off credit cards, or scanning your ID when you present the return and running that?
- gruez 9y ago
  I'm guessing it's legal because they warn you before denying it (ie. they allow you to return it this time, but warn you that you won't be able to return next time)
  - cpwright 9y ago
    On the bottom of every Home Depot receipt is "THE HOME DEPOT RESERVES THE RIGHT TO LIMIT / DENY RETURNS. PLEASE SEE THE RETURN POLICY SIGN IN STORES FOR DETAILS."
test6554 9y ago
I log in with the Wall Street Journal account that I finally broke down and paid for and I get: Service temporarily unavailable.
- castis 9y ago
  I dont know if you're aware, but this isn't the WSJ help desk.
gascan 9y ago
I guess as long as it's implemented well it will never matter to anyone who isn't a cheat. But as one of countless time-strapped homeowners who can't remember if he needs a 5/8" widget or a 1/2" widget, I frequently buy both and return the extra at a later date. I can only hope I don't get flagged. Frankly it's a big part of the value of shopping at a local retailer.
- Domenic_S 9y ago
  Non-cheat here who got hit by best buy. I returned a Surface Pro and some other stuff -- they took it back but flagged me for no returns. So I stopped buying stuff there.
  - fjsolwmv 9y ago
    Do they tell you "you are on notice, we won't accept returns from you anymore"?
    - Domenic_S 9y ago
      Yeah, my ban was temporary (120 days?).
  - acct1771 9y ago
    Off-topic, but very curious: why'd you return the Surface?
    - Domenic_S 9y ago
      - When I unboxed it, on first boot it bluescreened - The stylus' battery was dead out of box - Sleep/wake behavior was not what I like -- took too long for me - Bluescreened about 3x/day on normal use
  - shawndellysse 9y ago
    I had a similar experience. I bought an open-box sound bar for my tv, got home and unboxed it to find that the sound bar was DOA and the serial number didn't match the box. I had bought it from a Best Buy about an hour from my home, and tried to return it, with receipt, to the Best Buy 15 minutes from home since I had bought it on a Sunday afternoon and wanted to return it same day if possible. I was told I had to bring it back to the original store since the serials didn't match; okay great Best Buy didn't do it's job checking serials when whoever had this item before me return-swapped it, but sure I'll go out of my way. I bring it back to the original store and they then tell me I'm on the no-return list from that time for 120 days. I've since stopped shopping at Best Buy.
Splines 9y ago
The amusing thing is that retailers are going to have the data that shows this works. Return fraud will certainly go down. What they're not going to have is data on the people who choose not to shop at these stores because of this policy, both those who have been incorrectly identified as fraudsters and those who just don't want to bother with the hassle.
- megy 9y ago
  > What they're not going to have is data on the people who choose not to shop at these stores because of this policy, Why won't they have that data? They will certainly know if sales have gone down, and they can try it out in different areas to remove other factors.
  - frenchie14 9y ago
    Because sales has thousands of variables at play and this is just one. It won't be possible to attribute the degree of the loss of sales to a single variable.
forgotmypw 9y ago
How Your Returns Are Used Against You at Best Buy, Other Retailers Best Buy, other chains pay to track customers’ shopping behavior and limit items they can bring back (Picture of a best buy store with a car parked out front, and a man pushing a cart with a TV towards the entrance) At Best Buy, returning too many items within a short time can hurt a person’s score, as can returning high-theft items such as digital cameras. Photo: Craig Matthews/The Press of Atlantic City/Associated Press By Khadeeja Safdar March 13, 2018 5:30 a.m. ET Every time shoppers return purchases to Best Buy Co., they are tracked by a company that has the power to override the store’s touted policy and refuse to refund their money. That is because the electronics giant is one of several chains that have hired a service called Retail Equation to score customers’ shopping behavior and impose limits on the amount of merchandise they can return. Jake Zakhar recently returned three cellphone cases at a Best Buy store in Mission Viejo, Calif., and a salesperson told him he would be banned from making returns and exchanges for a year. The 41-year-old real-estate agent had bought cases in extra colors as gifts for his sons and assumed he could bring back the unused ones within the 15 days stated in the return policy as long as he had a receipt. The salesperson told him to contact Retail Equation, based in Irvine, Calif., to request his “return activity report,” a history of his return transactions. The report showed only three items—the cellphone cases—totaling $87.43. He asked the firm to lift the ban, but it declined. When he appealed to Best Buy and tweeted his report, the company referred him back to Retail Equation. “I’m being made to feel like I committed a crime,” said Mr. Zakhar. “When you say habitual returner, I’m thinking 27 videogames and 14 TVs.” Stores have long used generous return guidelines to lure more customers, but such policies also invite abuse. Retailers estimate 11% of their sales are returned, and of those, 11% are likely fraudulent returns, according to a 2017 survey of 63 retailers by the National Retail Federation. Return fraud or abuse occurs when customers exploit the return process, such as requesting a refund for items they have used, stolen or bought somewhere else. Amazon.com Inc. and other online players that have made it easy to return items have changed consumer expectations, adding pressure on brick-and-mortar chains. L.L. Bean Inc., which once allowed customers to make returns even years after they purchased items, recently clamped down, citing abuse. Some retailers monitor return fraud in-house, but Best Buy and others pay Retail Equation to track and score each customer’s return behavior for both in-store and online purchases. The service also works with Home Depot Inc., J.C. Penney Co. , Sephora and Victoria’s Secret. Some retailers use the system only to assess returns made without a receipt. Best Buy uses Retail Equation to assess all returns, even those made with a receipt. Dozens of shoppers have complained on Twitter, Facebook, Yelp and other online forums that they were prevented from making returns despite following the store’s policy. Retail Equation said its services are used in 34,000 stores, but declined to provide a full list of its clients. The Wall Street Journal learned of the relationship between some retailers and the firm by reviewing return activity reports from customers. “We are hired by the retailers to review the returns, look for suspicious situations and issue approvals, warnings or denials,” said Tom Rittman, a marketing vice president at Appriss Inc., a Louisville, Ky., data analytics firm that acquired Retail Equation in 2015. The company said its system is designed to identify 1% of shoppers whose behaviors mimic return fraud or abuse. Its statisticians and programmers have built a customized algorithm for each retailer that scores customers based on their shopping behavior and then flags people who exceed a certain score. The company said it doesn’t share a person’s data from one retailer with another. “You could do things that are inside the posted rules, but if you are violating the intent of the rules, like every item you’re purchasing you’re using and then returning, then at a certain point in time you become not a profitable customer for that retailer,” said Mr. Rittman. At Best Buy, returning too many items within a short time can hurt a person’s score, as can returning high-theft items such as digital cameras. After the Journal contacted Best Buy, the company said it created a dedicated hotline (1-866-764-6979) to help customers who think they were wrongfully banned from making returns. “On very rare occasions—less than one tenth of one percent of returns—we stop what we believe is a fraudulent return,” said Jeff Haydock, a spokesman for Best Buy. “Fraud is a real problem in retail, but if our systems aren’t as good as they can be, we apologize to anyone inappropriately affected.” Best Buy CEO Hubert Joly said the company is “looking very seriously at the process and partner around this.” When a consumer makes a return, details about his or her identity and shopping visit are transmitted to Retail Equation, which then generates a “risk score.” If the score exceeds the threshold specific to the retailer, a salesperson informs the consumer that future returns will be denied and then directs them to Retail Equation to request a return activity report or file a dispute. It isn’t easy for shoppers to learn their standing before receiving a warning. Retailers typically don’t publicize their relationship with Retail Equation. And even if a customer tracks down his or her return report, it doesn’t include purchase history or other information used to generate a score. The report also doesn’t disclose the actual score or the thresholds for getting barred. Dave Payne, a 38-year-old public relations professional, said he learned of the system for the first time when he received a warning at a Best Buy in Orlando, Fla. He was returning a digital scale and a router extender, with a receipt for both items. He said neither Best Buy nor Retail Equation provided a clear explanation for what he did wrong: “Best Buy advertises a 15-day return policy, but they are not advertising that at some point when you’ve crossed an arbitrary line, that policy no longer applies.” The ban on his account was lifted after he complained to the company’s public-relations department, but he remains upset that his information is being shared with a third party. “It creeps me out.” Write to Khadeeja Safdar at khadeeja.safdar@wsj.com
AcerbicZero 9y ago
I dunno if it would help, but I buy everything with credit cards (not directly linked to my bank account) so if I'm having issues returning something the next step would be a dispute via the CC company. It's amazing how many issues have been cleared up within a few days once the money is on the line.
Zhenya 9y ago
Sounds like the best way to combat this is to call your credit card and do a charge-back. In that case, the retailer wouldn't even get the merchandise back. Make that very clear when you are initiating the return and you are being refused.
xivzgrev 9y ago
Then we should have access to our records like credit scores and explanations of what they mean.
dingo_bat 9y ago
IMO no-questions asked returns should not be a thing. When you buy something, you should make sure it is the right thing for your need. If it doesn't work as advertised, sure return it. But if you bought something knowing full well that it isn't right for you, you shouldn't be able to return it later. For example, you buy a pair of shoes. Unless the sole is coming off or it has some other defect, you don't get to return it a week later. When buying online, the return conditions should also include size issues. Sometimes the indicated size does not fit as well as you'd like to and there's no way for you to find that out without wearing it.
- acdha 9y ago
  Your last sentence shows why no questions policies exist. It’s easy to say people show pick the right thing first but in real life most products have details which are hard to learn in advance and it’s often hard to find all of the details in advance (e.g. maybe you bought an appliance which does what you want, fits the space, but the geometry for the power/water/vent/etc. is wrong for your house. Whose fault is that?). If you try to require justifications, all you’re doing is paying people to interrogate customers - increasing the odds that they become former customers - and the people you’d most want to stop are also the most likely to have come up with a good excuse.
- analog31 9y ago
  In my view, no-questions-asked returns is a marketing strategy like any other. The larger retailers who can absorb the cost of accepting returns gain a competitive advantage over stores that have a less efficient returns process. It also reduces or perhaps even eliminates credit card charge-backs. All other things being equal, I would prefer to shop at a store with a pleasant return process. This advantage could outweigh the cost of taking back a few returns.
Sam_Harris 9y ago
paywall
michaelmrose 9y ago
Anyone have the text of the article lots of us can't actually read?
joeevans1000 9y ago
I thought one had the 'right' to return items in the returns policy... is there fine print allowing them to deny you?
joeevans1000 9y ago
There seem to be two scenarios: 1) the third party company blocks sketchy transactions 2) the third party cuts off customers that are deemed 'not profitable' because they return too many items The first scenario seems perfectly reasonable. The second is evidence of a far more scary direction things could be going in. Fender bender in that rental car? No more Avis rentals. Had to negotiate that medical bill? No more medical care at this facility.
KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
Retail Equation sounds like they came straight out of Little Britain's "Computer Says No" sketch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJQ3TM-p2QI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJQ3TM-p2QI

182 points by QUFB 9y ago

So, in order to prevent fraud, companies like Best Buy contract out to companies like Retail Equation to evaluate (and deny) returns. While I can appreciate why they feel it's necessary, this seems like the kind of thing that credit card chargebacks were made to combat.

larrik 9y ago
Exactly, I would expect this to be a 100% legit chargeback case, which is going to hurt them in the long run.
- ben509 9y ago
  From their policy: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy/pcmcat260800050014.c?id=pcmcat260800050014 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-pol... "Like many retailers, we use a third party to help prevent losses by detecting improper returns, and, except where prohibited, require a valid ID for all store returns that lack proof of purchase. Reimbursements on returns lacking proof of purchase may be denied or limited and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed." And the Visa guidelines for chargebacks, page 28 lists the reason codes: https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/chargeback-management-guidelines-for-visa-merchants.pdf https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/chargeback-... My read puts Best Buy on solid footing here. If you're just returning it because you're unsatisfied, Visa doesn't seem to consider that valid for a chargeback. If it's defective and you have proof of purchase, you had enough evidence that BB would accept the return.
  - cjworden 9y ago
    The last bullet point of that section states: "The cardholder claims that the terms of the sale were misrepresented by the merchant". It also states in their return policy disclosure section: "For card-present transactions, Visa will accept that proper disclosure has occurred before a transaction is completed if the following (or similar) disclosure statements are legibly printed on the face of the transaction receipt near the cardholder signature area or in an area easily seen by the cardholder" I'd argue that unless the receipt also mentions Best Buy's use of a third party to potentially deny a return, they have failed to properly disclose their return policy, making a valid claim that Best Buy misrepresented their terms of sale.
  - gknoy 9y ago
    Wow, that document is really informative. Thanks for sharing that. Great point about not-liking-it being an insufficient threshold for returns. If I were blocked from returning things due to returning, say, a camera or a trio of phone cases that weren't the right ones, and then later had a defective washing machine or monitor, it seems like Code 53 (Not as Described or Defective Merchandise) would be a valid reason for a return, though. But, as others have said ... this seems like a compelling reason not to even be a customer.
  - larrik 9y ago
    "Not as Described" generally covers "unsatisfied". The return policy being not as described may even qualify. Visa tends to side with the cardholder on chargebacks more than is probably fair, too.
  - 15155 9y ago
    > and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed Does this imply they just pocket the sales tax or receive it as a refund in some way?
    - gruez 9y ago
      Not an accountant, but my understanding is that the retailer is collecting the tax on behalf of the state. Thus if they're explicitly stating they're not refunding the sales tax, they have to give it to the state, because those funds weren't theirs to begin with.
      - gefh 9y ago
        But if they accept the return, there is now no sales tax due to the state? Customer should get 100% back.
        bluGill 9y ago
        They have no way of knowing WHAT state. You might have bought the widget in a different state with lower sales tax.
        FireBeyond 9y ago
        Yeah, that's an odd one. I bought a Christmas gift for a family member at Toys R Us in King County WA and exchanged it in another county. They refunded me 12c for the difference in sales tax between counties.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - saberworks 9y ago
    It's really interesting that their web site says you only need to show ID if you don't have proof of purchase (and it's only in the fine print at the bottom, the top indicates you need it in any case). I recently had to return a defective router ($350) and the receipt said I needed ID to return it. Of course, you don't get the receipt until after you purchase the item otherwise I would have just ordered the router from Amazon. Anyway, I did not want to show an ID, I had my receipt, I had only bought this thing a few days prior, it was broken, and I didn't want my driver's license in yet another set of databases just waiting to be hacked. However, the customer service person was super nice and didn't even ask me for my ID.
  - mindslight 9y ago
    They would be on shaky ground with credit cards, which is why these terms state they only apply when "proof of purchase" is lacking - a CC purchase has intrinsic proof of purchase. Where this surveillance system has become a major pain in my ass is returns over 90 days at Home Depot. The last period I had intensive HD purchases, I could count on returning stuff [0] late that I'd rather not stock, eating the sales tax, and then spending the store credit. Now it's be sure to return within 90 days or plan on keeping it to not end up flagged. Also, I have personally stuck black tape [1] over the serial number and the barcodes on my drivers' license. When asked to show ID, this lets me exercise judgment about whether the rarer bits are revealed. This is especially handy at unknown liquor stores where the cashier will not have the courtesy to even ask before swiping your license in an electronic reader, backhauling it into the surveillance matrix. [0] Unopened, new condition, completely resalable. [1] Sharpie-colored masking tape. Electrical tape tends to be transparent to IR!
    - WrtCdEvrydy 9y ago
      You can just demag it
    - sjruckle 9y ago
      Not to detract from your overall point, but electrical tape isn't transparent to IR. Quite the opposite, in fact. It doesn't matter though, because the scanners don't use IR. They use a red laser which is in the visible spectrum. Any tape that visibly blocks the barcode will work.
      - mindslight 9y ago
        Well then, I must have been unlucky with the brand I attempted to use as a flag for an opto interrupter - it definitely passed enough IR for the thing to not trip. And yeah, red lasers are quite common. But that doesn't rule out the possibility of a reader using IR - my experience with the opto left me paranoid on the matter.
        sjruckle 9y ago
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    Purchases made within 50 miles of your home are always chargeback eligible.
  - tbyehl 9y ago
    Amex and Mastercard provide return protection for items up to a few hundred dollars. Many Visa issuers offer it as well.
astura 9y ago
Many credit cards come with return protection, so if the retailer won't accept a return you can file a return protection claim. I did that once before with AMEX: https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/features-benefits/policies/return-protection-terms.html https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/features-ben...

jasode 9y ago

From the infographic: "returning an item just when a store closes" Can anyone explain why that specific behavior is a red flag?

keebEz 9y ago
Minimizes the time employees are willing to spend evaluating the return.
- RickS 9y ago
  Also maximizes the time to discovery if there are real issues
LgWoodenBadger 9y ago
When I was in the point-of-sale software industry a decade ago, this was one of the rules of the fraud-detection system our software offered. Employees in cahoots often "returned" unsold merchandise shortly before, or immediately after, store closing. Mainly due to legitimate customers not being present. There were a surprising number of rules that we had developed over time, usually in response to discovery of all the various schemes that people came up with. Buying-then-returning-within-X-minutes was another.
ceejayoz 9y ago
"I really don't want to get home 30 minutes late because I was arguing with an irate customer if I reject this return."

keebEz 9y ago

Customer LTV applied to Retail. Amazon can already do it, so this is just catch up.

r00fus 9y ago
How does Amazon apply customer LTV?
- 13of40 9y ago
  In my case, I returned three relatively expensive items in a year and I got a warning email from them. Googled the text of the mail and it turns out it's the first step to getting your Prime account banned, and based on the contract they probably wouldn't have to pro-rate the subscription fees.
- keebEz 9y ago
  They know all your purchases, home location, work location (most likely as people deliver to work all the time), and all your returns, as starters. How do they actually make use of it to upsell, etc.? Their recommendation system.

an4rchy 9y ago

It sounds like there might be a few false positives in this algorithm, which negatively impacts the retailers from a publicity standpoint. Also, can someone verify this but I thought that systems like this can be easily manipulated,i.e buying with cash or buying online with PayPal, different credit card etc, as that is PII and companies can't use it to identify you or reject your claims, unless tied to a specific loyalty account.

ams6110 9y ago
That's why they are always asking for your email address or phone number when you check out. I always decline.
randomname123 9y ago
Yes, this is a very common problem actually, it's called return fraud [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_fraud

ben509 9y ago

I'm more surprised to see that clothing retailers weren't listed. It's incredibly common for "customers" to buy clothes and return them the next day.

giobox 9y ago
Returned clothes are surely significantly easier to restock than opened high ticket electrical goods. The typical wholesale values involved are probably very different too. Clothing is further complicated by the fact that not having time to try something on in store and returning it later is typically considered a pretty legitimate and widely practiced shopping pattern, and one that most clothing stores encourage, at least in my experience. I'd imagine red flagging this would materially impact sales overall in some places.
dawnerd 9y ago
I do that mostly because the stores I go to for whatever reason either don't have their changing rooms open or don't have them at all. Besides, it's much easier to try something on at home the way I'd normally wear it than quickly putting it on in a store. It's also not like returned clothes are of no value. I've seen plenty of stores put returns right back on the racks as if they're new.
- ben509 9y ago
  That's fair. I've talked to some people working in retail who mentioned that some people abused the policy mercilessly.
  - dawnerd 9y ago
    No doubt, and thats why some places just put restocking fees around certain types of clothing (formalwear/around school events/ etc)
- jancsika 9y ago
  The OP almost certainly did not put scare quotes around "customer" to describe trying on clothes at home in edge cases where it's impossible or burdensome to try them on in store. (There's also the common case of regular customers who are busy and want to try lots of clothes at the same time, and the clerk makes a sales quote so they can bring up whatever didn't work for them later.) OP is almost certainly talking about "customers" who buy a piece of clothing specifically to wear to a particular event out in the elements (party/dinner/camping/etc.), then try to return that piece for full credit after the elements have visibly changed the wear/fit/look/smell/elasticity of said clothing. You have nothing to explain if a shop lets you purchase clothing to try at home in controlled clean conditions and then return it if you feel it doesn't work for you. If you also bring back non-defective clothing that is no longer in a condition to be sold for full price, you are a meanie.

misterbowfinger 9y ago

non-paywall https://outline.com/HKktYH https://outline.com/HKktYH

forgotmypw 9y ago
Blank page for me?
- Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
  Are you using NoScript or something similar?
  - forgotmypw 9y ago
    Yes, I have JS disabled.

logfromblammo 9y ago

We cannot accept your return, Mr. Costanza; this book has been flagged. This only stops gormless shoppers from making reasonable returns. Everyone else will do a chargeback for credit purchases, or file a complaint in small claims for cash purchases. The moxious will call their credit card company right at the returns desk and ask if they need a photograph of the posted return policy.

gknoy 9y ago
> The moxious will call their credit card company right at the returns desk and ask if they need a photograph of the posted return policy. Thank you! That's an excellent suggestion!
kalcode 9y ago
Well if you do and you constantly do chargebacks then you will get hit with fraud from your credit card company.
- cwkoss 9y ago
  What does it mean for a CC company to 'hit' someone 'with fraud'?
  - kalcode 9y ago
    They hit you with 'Chargeback fraud'. They can cancel your card, put it on your credit history redcord and can choose to press charges.
    - logfromblammo 9y ago
      Has this actually happened to you or any of your acquaintances? The retail-dispute resolution clauses of most credit agreements are very biased towards the consumer. If you can document that you made at least one good-faith effort at resolving the issue yourself before requesting that the credit issuer handle it for you, then the retailer has to overcome the presumption that the customer is always right in the arbitration. As it's all about the money and private agreements, it is always possible that someone who has more of it than you could use it to buy a more favorable outcome. But it is also very unlikely that anyone would ever see a criminal indictment over credit fraud before the damages exceed thousands of dollars. No credit company wants to lose customers because they got a reputation for grassing on their customers, but they would want to discourage their petty frauds--they know they have some, with statistical certainty--from growing worse by occasionally prosecuting the worst of the grand frauds. If HSBC can knowingly launder drug money, and Wells Fargo can knowingly open fake accounts, a credit bank can knowingly screw the retailer when one of their credit customers does a bogus chargeback just because the cashier was rude at the checkout. I won't say bogus chargebacks are not a problem, but there is a threshold below which it does not negatively affect the revenue of the bank, so no one there will be paid to care about it. A computer program might evaluate it. It might get randomly selected for human auditing. And most people are mostly honest, so the fraud rate would still be low, even if no one policed it more than a token amount. The credit banks's mission isn't to catch the frauds; it's to make money. So they catch just the right amount of frauds in order to make the most money.

maerF0x0 9y ago

This could also be "how retailers are going to lose my business"

daveFNbuck 9y ago
If you're taking advantage of returns in a way that hurts retailers, they want to lose your business. Chances are that's not you, but it's probably still worth it if they can eliminate the free riders.
- xienze 9y ago
  Seriously. If you're like any normal person and occasionally return stuff, you're fine. If you're just "renting" products 30 days at a time (yes, this really does happen), retailers don't want anything to do with you. If you fall into this second category, instead of getting all indignant, perhaps stop taking advantage of return policies and retailers won't shun you.
  - softawre 9y ago
    Did you read the article? The guy who was flagged had spent thousands at the store, and bought 3 phone cases for 80$, then returned them as his only return ever, and got flagged.
    - lotsofpulp 9y ago
      That's one side of the story, according to the person who was denied future refunds.
      - gknoy 9y ago
        The return history image he presented seems to corroborate it.
      - Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
        Yup. Guilty people tend to not admit to their crimes. Go to the forums of any major online game such as League of Legends or World of Warcraft and you'll semi-frequently find posts from players complaining about being banned for no reason at all until a moderator or CS rep finally has to step in and say "Actually, here's exactly what you did to get banned" and it's always a legitimate reason.

Slansitartop 9y ago

Can someone summarize? I don't have a WSJ account.

gruez 9y ago
https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-your-returns-are-used-against-you-at-best-buy-other-retailers-1520933400 https://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=https://www.wsj.com/article...
- magic_beans 9y ago
  Well that's a neat trick to get around the paywall... Thanks!
  - Ziomislaw 9y ago
    It's easier to just click 'web' link here on HN. It will show you google search results, and clicking on those bypasses the paywall too.

mnm1 9y ago

Amazon does this as well. I don't know why they would this and treat customers this way, especially customers who purchase a lot of things from them, but I do know it's not fraud. It's not even clear how this is legal since the return clause is part of a contract. But they will close your account, prematurely end your Prime membership, and there's nothing you can do about it. Nor can you know when this will happen. That's how much companies like Amazon and Best Buy value their customers. To say they treat them like shit is an understatement.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
daodedickinson 9y ago
Yup, I got flagged and only ever returned items THAT WERE NOT EVEN THE LISTED PRODUCT THAT I ORDERED. And rather than just punishing me by not letting me buy from randos not fulfilled by Amazon, they go all out in excommunicating me from the ~13% and growing of civilization that Amazon controls. And they give customers the same amount of "strikes" (trying to get scams or seller mistakes resolved) no matter the volume of purchases. But that's the future. These companies operate like the Chinese Communist Party and soon all of society will be run on this sort of repression.
lotsofpulp 9y ago
Businesses don't have to transact with people that cause them to lose money.
- John_KZ 9y ago
  Why the hell did your other comment about pregnant women got flagged?
btian 9y ago
Imagine a "customer" hates Amazon, he can get Amazon to lose a lot of money by buying a lot of things, open them, then return everything. Amazon won't be a sustainable business if it can't reject "customers".

neonate 9y ago

http://archive.is/Swq7X http://archive.is/Swq7X

ct0 9y ago
the key to the pay wall is in the above link. thanks
- parliament32 9y ago
  I'm getting a paywall and there doesn't seem to be a key in the link.
  - softawre 9y ago
    It seems to be based on referrer. You can save the article to Pocket, open Pocket, click "go to original", and bypass.

googlryas 9y ago

Why does returning an item right before a store closes hurt your score? (per the infographic in the article)

gruez 9y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577824 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16577824

vinhboy 9y ago

> He asked the firm to lift the ban, but it declined. That's bad business. I think giving customers a second chance before shutting them out is a better idea.

mrfusion 9y ago

Is anyone else finding a lot of the stuff they buy has minor wear and tear ie probably was a return at some point? The brand “new” pressure washer I bought was covered with scuff marks.

kabdib 9y ago
I stopped buying things like motherboards, RAM and so forth from Frys quite some time ago. Just too much stuff was returns, and not marked so. (I once bought a desktop computer from them. It was, unsurprisingly, busted -- it wouldn't boot, and the OS installs I tried all failed. I had to threaten to reverse charges on my credit card when they refused to take it back; their argument was it was broken and they were unable to put it back on the shelf and sell it to another customer!)
- raincom 9y ago
  In old days at Frys (around 2001), Fry's used to check the returned products (mother boards, memory, hard drives, etc) and check the serial number of mother board/memory/hard drive against the serial number on the package. They also used to do quick retest of returned motherboards, put them back in the package, shrink wrap it, then place them back on shelves. People started complaining about this, as customers have no way of knowing whether a package is new or not. Around 2007, Fry's started putting lables on returned packages. This way, one can know whether something is returned or not. Some customers used to replace things by keeping the same new package.
  - DrScump 9y ago
    shrink wrap it, then place them back on shelves I've never heard of this at Fry's; in CA, it would be illegal. And I've been shopping there since the original site on Oakmead. (The current Sunnyvale store is the 3rd she for the flagship.) If you lack a receipt but bought with a card, knowing the card used and the store bought at is enough for them to look it up.
- giobox 9y ago
  My recent experiences (past 2 years) in Fry's are the opposite - the returned stuff is clearly marked and 10% off. Given the sheer quantity of stuff on the shelves marked this way I have to assume they are probably being honest about it most of the time.

noonespecial 9y ago

Is this behavior stated explicitly in the store's return policy? If not, that sounds a little like fraud. Its a kind of bait and switch: "Shop with confidence because of our awesome return policy!... except for you, we don't serve 'your kind' here"

deleted 9y ago
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gruez 9y ago
Of the examples given in the story, all of them mentioned a "warn" before being unable to return. So it's not as if they weren't given advance notice.
- pavon 9y ago
  The story wasn't clear of whether just future purchases would not be allowed to be returned, or if they were banned from returning anything (including previous purchases) after the warning.
  - gknoy 9y ago
    The text of the warning seemed to indicate that, for the next 365 days, no returns would be allowed. I suspect that is intended to be interpreted as any returns, even if it were for something already purchased.
adrr 9y ago
Home depot advertises: "Be happy 100% with your purchase or we'll take it back. No problem.". Sure sounds like denying people the ability to return items is false advertising at best or blatant fraud.

avs733 9y ago

"You could do things that are inside the posted rules, but if you are violating the intent of the rules, like every item you’re purchasing you’re using and then returning, then at a certain point in time you become not a profitable customer for that retailer,” Uh...I'm not a lawyer but I really don't think that interpretation of contract law would hold up in court. They offered a contract to purchase an item, the consumer accepted it. Making that contract then reliant on their intent rather than whats written seems a pretty obvious violation of Contra proferentem...am I nuts?

gweinberg 9y ago
Most likely the contract doesn't require them to accept returns at all.
- avs733 9y ago
  I think that is a really anti-consumer way to read this: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-pol...
  - lotu 9y ago
    Dead link
  - kevin_b_er 9y ago
    Link dead. It now a return "promise".
  - grkvlt 9y ago
    From the actual link [0] Like many retailers, we use a third party to help prevent losses by detecting improper returns [...] Reimbursements on returns lacking proof of purchase may be denied or limited and state sales tax and fees will not be reimbursed. [...] If we caution you or deny your return, you may request a copy of your Return Activity Report by calling 1-888-224-1920 So, they don't promise to unconditionally return items. I wonder what a 'Return Activity Report' looks like? 0. https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-policy/pcmcat260800050014.c?id=pcmcat260800050014 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/help-topics/return-exchange-pol...

gregmac 9y ago

This is actually one of the major advantages retail still has over online purchases: returns to online providers require paying for shipping, and the initial shipping costs aren't refunded either. Even with 'free shipping', the cost of shipping + everyone else's returns is just built in. That said, this seems like just bad policy that leads to the problem. Why should stores allow returns without a receipt or other proof (lookup using credit card)? That seems to be the major issue. If they require proof of purchase, it means they at least aren't refunding theft or products purchased from other stores. Accepting returns of opened but non-damaged product that can't be resold (eg: missing parts/packaging, obviously used, etc) also seems to be opening themselves up to abuse. Of course, how they handle this has to take into consideration the fact that easy returns are a competitive advantage. This is maybe where the analytics firm can step in, to help identify people that frequently do this.

kolpa 9y ago
> returns to online providers require paying for shipping, and the initial shipping costs aren't refunded either. Amazon offers various kinds of free / flat-price shipping, and free return-shipping for flawed products > Even with 'free shipping', the cost of shipping + everyone else's returns is just built in. Delivering a package to a local retailer is customer-paid shipping, just in effort/gas/wear-and-tear, not simple cash.
- atonse 9y ago
  > Delivering a package to a local retailer is customer-paid shipping, just in effort/gas/wear-and-tear, not simple cash. Potentially. In the case of Home Depot, I usually take my returns when I need to go anyway to shop there. Kills two birds with one stone. Speaking of which, I've got 3 bags of stuff to return. Hope they take it back! Not stuff I've used (like I wasn't sure what size window latch I needed, so I bought 4 different sizes, checked them on the window without opening the package, and have to return the other 3) This kind of stuff is such a boon with kids. I don't have time for 3 trips to Home Depot in one day. But I do over the course of 3-4 weeks.
deleted 9y ago
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unstatusthequo 9y ago

Great idea, brick and mortar retail. That looks ought to help speed up your Amazon-sponsored demise. Amazon's return policy is so flexible it sets a very high bar for customer service

ConceptJunkie 9y ago
Amazon is, or was until very recently, running at a loss. Most companies can't afford to do that for long.
- jazoom 9y ago
  This behaviour is illegal in Australia and many retailers still manage to make a profit.
- hidenotslide 9y ago
  Depends how you define loss, a lot of people would disagree with you. They have had significant positive free cash flow for a long time, over a decade at least.[1] But since they reinvest the profits this becomes low net income. [1] https://ycharts.com/companies/AMZN/free_cash_flow https://ycharts.com/companies/AMZN/free_cash_flow
- skellera 9y ago
  https://www.recode.net/2018/2/1/16961598/amazon-jeff-bezos-record-profit-11-quarter-q4-2017-earnings https://www.recode.net/2018/2/1/16961598/amazon-jeff-bezos-r...
vkou 9y ago
So, regular Amazon customers are subsidising customers that are abusing returns? And you, as a regular customer are happy for this? Why? Also, if you think Amazon won't use a secret, proprietary algorithm to identify and ban people abusing their return policies (with limited to no appeal or recourse), I have a bridge to sell you.
- chillwaves 9y ago

nathantotten 9y ago

I frequently shop at Home Depot. Last year I was remodeling my bathroom and I had some extra parts (unused) and I went to return them. I was mistakenly flagged by Retail Equation and several of the things I was returning were denied. It was extremely frustrating as I had bought thousands of dollars of merchandise and was literally trying to return less than $40 of stuff. I asked to talk to the store manager, she said there was nothing she could do. To me, the real problem with these systems is that relying on them too much removes the ability for people to provide good customer service. Fortunately for me, I don't give up so easily. I guessed the email address of the CEO of Home Depot and wrote him. The next day the VP of Loss Prevention called me and then called the store. They let me return my merchandise the next time I tried. ;)

ng-user 9y ago
Was the email you guessed perhaps first.last@homedepot.ca?
- Edmond 9y ago
  you can mostly guess these emails because they all use predictable patterns. The trick I use is to just find any random persons email with a google search (ex "@homedepot.com") and use the same pattern for the person I am trying to reach at the given organization, it works most of the time.
- nathantotten 9y ago
  I honestly don’t think many executives are trying to hide their emails that hard. Steve Jobs always got a lot of press when he would reply to customers, but the reality is that executives actually value this communication. It helps them learn of problems they may otherwise be insulated from. Of course executives generally also don’t make their email too readily available because then everyone would contact them and that wouldn’t scale. I have emailed various executives over the years and don’t recall it ever not working. It even worked with Comcast to my surprise - the next day someone from some department like “executive customer service” contacted me.

donatj 9y ago

Aren't there consumer protection laws against this sort of thing? Update: I guess it varies state by state http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/customer-returns-and-refund-laws-by-state.html http://consumer.findlaw.com/consumer-transactions/customer-r... Minnesota, where I (and Best Buy Headquarters) are located requires: "A seller must clearly and conspicuously display written notice of its policy in boldface type of a minimum size of 14 points. If a seller fails this requirement, cash refunds are required of goods that are acceptable for return." Also, couldn't fraudsters circumvent this entirely by paying in cash?

cloudkj 9y ago
To me it seems very similar to credit reporting agencies, so I would imagine much of it falls under the same buckets, legal or otherwise.
chrishas35 9y ago
> Also, couldn't fraudsters circumvent this entirely by paying in cash? Are they doing it off credit cards, or scanning your ID when you present the return and running that?
gruez 9y ago
I'm guessing it's legal because they warn you before denying it (ie. they allow you to return it this time, but warn you that you won't be able to return next time)
- cpwright 9y ago
  On the bottom of every Home Depot receipt is "THE HOME DEPOT RESERVES THE RIGHT TO LIMIT / DENY RETURNS. PLEASE SEE THE RETURN POLICY SIGN IN STORES FOR DETAILS."

test6554 9y ago

I log in with the Wall Street Journal account that I finally broke down and paid for and I get: Service temporarily unavailable.

castis 9y ago
I dont know if you're aware, but this isn't the WSJ help desk.

gascan 9y ago

I guess as long as it's implemented well it will never matter to anyone who isn't a cheat. But as one of countless time-strapped homeowners who can't remember if he needs a 5/8" widget or a 1/2" widget, I frequently buy both and return the extra at a later date. I can only hope I don't get flagged. Frankly it's a big part of the value of shopping at a local retailer.

Domenic_S 9y ago
Non-cheat here who got hit by best buy. I returned a Surface Pro and some other stuff -- they took it back but flagged me for no returns. So I stopped buying stuff there.
- fjsolwmv 9y ago
  Do they tell you "you are on notice, we won't accept returns from you anymore"?
  - Domenic_S 9y ago
    Yeah, my ban was temporary (120 days?).
- acct1771 9y ago
  Off-topic, but very curious: why'd you return the Surface?
  - Domenic_S 9y ago
    - When I unboxed it, on first boot it bluescreened - The stylus' battery was dead out of box - Sleep/wake behavior was not what I like -- took too long for me - Bluescreened about 3x/day on normal use
- shawndellysse 9y ago
  I had a similar experience. I bought an open-box sound bar for my tv, got home and unboxed it to find that the sound bar was DOA and the serial number didn't match the box. I had bought it from a Best Buy about an hour from my home, and tried to return it, with receipt, to the Best Buy 15 minutes from home since I had bought it on a Sunday afternoon and wanted to return it same day if possible. I was told I had to bring it back to the original store since the serials didn't match; okay great Best Buy didn't do it's job checking serials when whoever had this item before me return-swapped it, but sure I'll go out of my way. I bring it back to the original store and they then tell me I'm on the no-return list from that time for 120 days. I've since stopped shopping at Best Buy.

Splines 9y ago

The amusing thing is that retailers are going to have the data that shows this works. Return fraud will certainly go down. What they're not going to have is data on the people who choose not to shop at these stores because of this policy, both those who have been incorrectly identified as fraudsters and those who just don't want to bother with the hassle.

megy 9y ago
> What they're not going to have is data on the people who choose not to shop at these stores because of this policy, Why won't they have that data? They will certainly know if sales have gone down, and they can try it out in different areas to remove other factors.
- frenchie14 9y ago
  Because sales has thousands of variables at play and this is just one. It won't be possible to attribute the degree of the loss of sales to a single variable.

forgotmypw 9y ago

How Your Returns Are Used Against You at Best Buy, Other Retailers Best Buy, other chains pay to track customers’ shopping behavior and limit items they can bring back (Picture of a best buy store with a car parked out front, and a man pushing a cart with a TV towards the entrance) At Best Buy, returning too many items within a short time can hurt a person’s score, as can returning high-theft items such as digital cameras. Photo: Craig Matthews/The Press of Atlantic City/Associated Press By Khadeeja Safdar March 13, 2018 5:30 a.m. ET Every time shoppers return purchases to Best Buy Co., they are tracked by a company that has the power to override the store’s touted policy and refuse to refund their money. That is because the electronics giant is one of several chains that have hired a service called Retail Equation to score customers’ shopping behavior and impose limits on the amount of merchandise they can return. Jake Zakhar recently returned three cellphone cases at a Best Buy store in Mission Viejo, Calif., and a salesperson told him he would be banned from making returns and exchanges for a year. The 41-year-old real-estate agent had bought cases in extra colors as gifts for his sons and assumed he could bring back the unused ones within the 15 days stated in the return policy as long as he had a receipt. The salesperson told him to contact Retail Equation, based in Irvine, Calif., to request his “return activity report,” a history of his return transactions. The report showed only three items—the cellphone cases—totaling $87.43. He asked the firm to lift the ban, but it declined. When he appealed to Best Buy and tweeted his report, the company referred him back to Retail Equation. “I’m being made to feel like I committed a crime,” said Mr. Zakhar. “When you say habitual returner, I’m thinking 27 videogames and 14 TVs.” Stores have long used generous return guidelines to lure more customers, but such policies also invite abuse. Retailers estimate 11% of their sales are returned, and of those, 11% are likely fraudulent returns, according to a 2017 survey of 63 retailers by the National Retail Federation. Return fraud or abuse occurs when customers exploit the return process, such as requesting a refund for items they have used, stolen or bought somewhere else. Amazon.com Inc. and other online players that have made it easy to return items have changed consumer expectations, adding pressure on brick-and-mortar chains. L.L. Bean Inc., which once allowed customers to make returns even years after they purchased items, recently clamped down, citing abuse. Some retailers monitor return fraud in-house, but Best Buy and others pay Retail Equation to track and score each customer’s return behavior for both in-store and online purchases. The service also works with Home Depot Inc., J.C. Penney Co. , Sephora and Victoria’s Secret. Some retailers use the system only to assess returns made without a receipt. Best Buy uses Retail Equation to assess all returns, even those made with a receipt. Dozens of shoppers have complained on Twitter, Facebook, Yelp and other online forums that they were prevented from making returns despite following the store’s policy. Retail Equation said its services are used in 34,000 stores, but declined to provide a full list of its clients. The Wall Street Journal learned of the relationship between some retailers and the firm by reviewing return activity reports from customers. “We are hired by the retailers to review the returns, look for suspicious situations and issue approvals, warnings or denials,” said Tom Rittman, a marketing vice president at Appriss Inc., a Louisville, Ky., data analytics firm that acquired Retail Equation in 2015. The company said its system is designed to identify 1% of shoppers whose behaviors mimic return fraud or abuse. Its statisticians and programmers have built a customized algorithm for each retailer that scores customers based on their shopping behavior and then flags people who exceed a certain score. The company said it doesn’t share a person’s data from one retailer with another. “You could do things that are inside the posted rules, but if you are violating the intent of the rules, like every item you’re purchasing you’re using and then returning, then at a certain point in time you become not a profitable customer for that retailer,” said Mr. Rittman. At Best Buy, returning too many items within a short time can hurt a person’s score, as can returning high-theft items such as digital cameras. After the Journal contacted Best Buy, the company said it created a dedicated hotline (1-866-764-6979) to help customers who think they were wrongfully banned from making returns. “On very rare occasions—less than one tenth of one percent of returns—we stop what we believe is a fraudulent return,” said Jeff Haydock, a spokesman for Best Buy. “Fraud is a real problem in retail, but if our systems aren’t as good as they can be, we apologize to anyone inappropriately affected.” Best Buy CEO Hubert Joly said the company is “looking very seriously at the process and partner around this.” When a consumer makes a return, details about his or her identity and shopping visit are transmitted to Retail Equation, which then generates a “risk score.” If the score exceeds the threshold specific to the retailer, a salesperson informs the consumer that future returns will be denied and then directs them to Retail Equation to request a return activity report or file a dispute. It isn’t easy for shoppers to learn their standing before receiving a warning. Retailers typically don’t publicize their relationship with Retail Equation. And even if a customer tracks down his or her return report, it doesn’t include purchase history or other information used to generate a score. The report also doesn’t disclose the actual score or the thresholds for getting barred. Dave Payne, a 38-year-old public relations professional, said he learned of the system for the first time when he received a warning at a Best Buy in Orlando, Fla. He was returning a digital scale and a router extender, with a receipt for both items. He said neither Best Buy nor Retail Equation provided a clear explanation for what he did wrong: “Best Buy advertises a 15-day return policy, but they are not advertising that at some point when you’ve crossed an arbitrary line, that policy no longer applies.” The ban on his account was lifted after he complained to the company’s public-relations department, but he remains upset that his information is being shared with a third party. “It creeps me out.” Write to Khadeeja Safdar at khadeeja.safdar@wsj.com

AcerbicZero 9y ago

I dunno if it would help, but I buy everything with credit cards (not directly linked to my bank account) so if I'm having issues returning something the next step would be a dispute via the CC company. It's amazing how many issues have been cleared up within a few days once the money is on the line.

Zhenya 9y ago

Sounds like the best way to combat this is to call your credit card and do a charge-back. In that case, the retailer wouldn't even get the merchandise back. Make that very clear when you are initiating the return and you are being refused.

xivzgrev 9y ago

Then we should have access to our records like credit scores and explanations of what they mean.

dingo_bat 9y ago

IMO no-questions asked returns should not be a thing. When you buy something, you should make sure it is the right thing for your need. If it doesn't work as advertised, sure return it. But if you bought something knowing full well that it isn't right for you, you shouldn't be able to return it later. For example, you buy a pair of shoes. Unless the sole is coming off or it has some other defect, you don't get to return it a week later. When buying online, the return conditions should also include size issues. Sometimes the indicated size does not fit as well as you'd like to and there's no way for you to find that out without wearing it.

acdha 9y ago
Your last sentence shows why no questions policies exist. It’s easy to say people show pick the right thing first but in real life most products have details which are hard to learn in advance and it’s often hard to find all of the details in advance (e.g. maybe you bought an appliance which does what you want, fits the space, but the geometry for the power/water/vent/etc. is wrong for your house. Whose fault is that?). If you try to require justifications, all you’re doing is paying people to interrogate customers - increasing the odds that they become former customers - and the people you’d most want to stop are also the most likely to have come up with a good excuse.
analog31 9y ago
In my view, no-questions-asked returns is a marketing strategy like any other. The larger retailers who can absorb the cost of accepting returns gain a competitive advantage over stores that have a less efficient returns process. It also reduces or perhaps even eliminates credit card charge-backs. All other things being equal, I would prefer to shop at a store with a pleasant return process. This advantage could outweigh the cost of taking back a few returns.

Sam_Harris 9y ago

paywall

michaelmrose 9y ago

Anyone have the text of the article lots of us can't actually read?

joeevans1000 9y ago

I thought one had the 'right' to return items in the returns policy... is there fine print allowing them to deny you?

joeevans1000 9y ago

There seem to be two scenarios: 1) the third party company blocks sketchy transactions 2) the third party cuts off customers that are deemed 'not profitable' because they return too many items The first scenario seems perfectly reasonable. The second is evidence of a far more scary direction things could be going in. Fender bender in that rental car? No more Avis rentals. Had to negotiate that medical bill? No more medical care at this facility.

KKKKkkkk1 9y ago

Retail Equation sounds like they came straight out of Little Britain's "Computer Says No" sketch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJQ3TM-p2QI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJQ3TM-p2QI