8 ms·

At a previous job I had to turn people away that had felonies. Some of them just had drug related ones. Felt terrible about it. If we are going to expect felo

by bruceb 9y ago

At a previous job I had to turn people away that had felonies. Some of them just had drug related ones. Felt terrible about it. If we are going to expect felons to reform and get a job and support themselves using legal means, well we have to make sure they have at least some opportunity at doing so. Seems we could have thousands MOOCs available on non internet connected computers. These inmates should spend their time reflecting, studying, and working. Who wants to spent another $35k a year when they get locked up again, instead providing them with near free education that might help them not come back to prison?

kolpa 9y ago
> Who wants to spent another $35k a year when they get locked up again? The prison-industrial complex and their political pawns.
- rukittenme 9y ago
  Do you have any evidence to support that nuanced and well-considered opinion?
  - mooneater 9y ago
    Not sure how anyone informed can question whether this is a thing, so I wonder kind of strange bar you may have for evidence. But this issue is well covered (see below for just a few examples), and I've never heard intelligent rebuttals. I would say at this point, the onus is on you to show why this is not how it works. - https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/07/criminal-justice-and-mass-incarceration https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/07/c... - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-whitehead/prison-privatization_b_1414467.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-whitehead/prison-priva... - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/12/the-prison-industrial-complex/304669/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/12/the-pri...
    - lev99 9y ago
      I feel like you didn't adequately cover the "political pawns" phrase. https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/how-for-profit-prisons-have-become-the-biggest-lobby-no-one-is-talking-about/?utm_term=.7234d83ef992 https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/...
    - rukittenme 9y ago
      There's a rebuttal for everything if you look. According to the ACLU 7% of state prisoners and 18% of federal prisoners are in for-profit prisons[1]. Federal prisoners make up less than 20% of the total prisoners. So a minority of a minority are prisoners of the federal "prison-industrial complex". I of course also hear the rebuttal that public prisons are supplied by private companies. Which is of course true. The government does not grow food or produce security cameras. Perhaps we'll accuse Georgia Pacific of being a beneficiary of the "collegiate-industrial complex" as well as the "prison-industrial complex" because they supply paper products. I believe our prisons are broken. I believe our prisons are cruel and immoral. But I do not believe there is a vast conspiracy of private interests locking people away for the sake of profit. Nor do I believe that those interests influence our politicians in any meaningful way. Ask yourself, is it likely that our politicians are completely beholden to an industry that makes up a fraction of a fraction of a percent of our economy? Or is it much more likely that our representatives believe private prisons could, should, or do work? 1. https://www.aclu.org/issues/mass-incarceration/privatization-criminal-justice/private-prisons https://www.aclu.org/issues/mass-incarceration/privatization...
      - bsenftner 9y ago
        I think it is highly likely that individual politicians accept lobby money from the private prison industry, which influences their votes on any issue impacting this "paying for their interests" constituent. Just repeat this, not very many times, and the nation's voting balance sways in their direction. Realize that each politician has a net of obligations, and by directly impacting a few's behavior, many other politicians are swayed due to their obligations towards their peers accepting lobby incentives. Speaking from experience, I worked very effectively as a lobbyist, until my ethics would not longer allow it.
tyingq 9y ago
This is a bigger problem than it used to be. Back in the day, small businesses didn't have access to background checks, so people with felony convictions could find employment. These days, a background check is a $10 service on a website. A felony conviction is now pretty much economic ruin. The only loopholes left are working as your own business, like hairdressers that rent space at a salon or day labor for under-the-table cash.
- banned1 9y ago
  That’s one narrative. The other narrative is that for $10 bucks I can protect myself, my family, and my business from terrible people. Whether they are terrible or “misguided” is up to me to decide, as it is whether to employ them or not. Again, not everybody in jail deserves humane treatment. There are animals in there. Maybe you have never been on the other end of crime, but there are humans who are animals.
  - tyingq 9y ago
    Was with you up until ”not everybody in jail deserves humane treatment”
    - banned1 9y ago
      Sorry, I believe some crimes deserve death.
      - tyingq 9y ago
        Well, for those crimes that result in life sentences or the death penalty, background checks don't really come into play. There's a wide range of felonies that don't automatically make someone an animal.
  - pc2g4d 9y ago
    "not everybody in jail deserves humane treatment" Maybe this attitude is part of why they're in jail in the first place.
lev99 9y ago
Part of the problem is it is legal to discriminate against felons and so many paths to success in our society are closed to them. A person with a felony is denied the pursuit of happiness.
- banned1 9y ago
  Why is it a problem? Wouldn’t you want to know the background of a person before hiring a nanny for your child? Now change nanny to employee and child to business.
  - khedoros1 9y ago
    Wait...are we talking an employee in the sense of a CEO, or in the sense of some lower-level position? First, my child is more precious than my business. Second, a nanny has much more direct influence over a child than an employee does over a business (except in the case of particularly-powerful employees, of course). Third (and ignored by the person you responded too, as well), not all felonies are created equal.
    - banned1 9y ago
      Does it matter? What if it is a low level position and the person stabs someone at the first disagreement? Why do I have to take that risk?
      - khedoros1 9y ago
        > Does it matter? Stupid question. Yes. > What if it is a low level position and the person stabs someone at the first disagreement? Why do you assume that "felon = violent"? > Why do I have to take that risk? Every hire is a risk. Running a business is a risk in the first place. If you're risk-averse, you probably aren't running a business, anyhow. So, why do you take that risk? Presumably because you've concluded during the interview that they can perform the task that you're hiring for better than the other candidates. If they can't, then it's a moot point anyhow, isn't it?
jpao79 9y ago
I give my kids unlimited 24/7, AYCL (All You Can Learn) screen time on their own Chromebooks that are URL locked down to only khanacademy.org. They learn about math, business econ, history, etc. This really would be a game changer for these individuals and the costs could be marginal given a Chromebook is <$150 and Khan Academy could provide bulk discounts. Latest on Khan Academy: https://www.ted.com/talks/sal_khan_let_s_teach_for_mastery_not_test_scores/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/sal_khan_let_s_teach_for_mastery_n... There seem to be trials of the offline Version of Khan Academy (KALite) at a correctional facility in Idaho and Los Angelos: https://www.khanacademy.org/resources/out-of-school-time-programs/out-of-school-programs-case-studies/a/use-case-correctional-facilities https://www.khanacademy.org/resources/out-of-school-time-pro... https://learningequality.org/ka-lite/ https://learningequality.org/ka-lite/
- Hydraulix989 9y ago
  Why not add Codecademy and Wikipedia to the whitelist? Has anyone published a whitelist of educational web sites? Wouldn't be a bad idea. Could make it a collaborative effort, too, by versioning it with GitHub and accepting online pull requests with public discussion.
  - jpao79 9y ago
    Good point - should have thought about coding when posting to HN. It does look like someone is leading the effort already. The key would be to keep the overhead low and encourage the participants to mentor each other somehow. https://ideas.ted.com/why-im-teaching-prisoners-to-code/ https://ideas.ted.com/why-im-teaching-prisoners-to-code/ https://thelastmile.org https://thelastmile.org

by bruceb 9y ago

kolpa 9y ago

> Who wants to spent another $35k a year when they get locked up again? The prison-industrial complex and their political pawns.

rukittenme 9y ago
Do you have any evidence to support that nuanced and well-considered opinion?
- mooneater 9y ago
  Not sure how anyone informed can question whether this is a thing, so I wonder kind of strange bar you may have for evidence. But this issue is well covered (see below for just a few examples), and I've never heard intelligent rebuttals. I would say at this point, the onus is on you to show why this is not how it works. - https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/07/criminal-justice-and-mass-incarceration https://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2015/07/c... - https://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-whitehead/prison-privatization_b_1414467.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-w-whitehead/prison-priva... - https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/12/the-prison-industrial-complex/304669/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1998/12/the-pri...
  - lev99 9y ago
    I feel like you didn't adequately cover the "political pawns" phrase. https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/how-for-profit-prisons-have-become-the-biggest-lobby-no-one-is-talking-about/?utm_term=.7234d83ef992 https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/04/28/...
  - rukittenme 9y ago
    There's a rebuttal for everything if you look. According to the ACLU 7% of state prisoners and 18% of federal prisoners are in for-profit prisons[1]. Federal prisoners make up less than 20% of the total prisoners. So a minority of a minority are prisoners of the federal "prison-industrial complex". I of course also hear the rebuttal that public prisons are supplied by private companies. Which is of course true. The government does not grow food or produce security cameras. Perhaps we'll accuse Georgia Pacific of being a beneficiary of the "collegiate-industrial complex" as well as the "prison-industrial complex" because they supply paper products. I believe our prisons are broken. I believe our prisons are cruel and immoral. But I do not believe there is a vast conspiracy of private interests locking people away for the sake of profit. Nor do I believe that those interests influence our politicians in any meaningful way. Ask yourself, is it likely that our politicians are completely beholden to an industry that makes up a fraction of a fraction of a percent of our economy? Or is it much more likely that our representatives believe private prisons could, should, or do work? 1. https://www.aclu.org/issues/mass-incarceration/privatization-criminal-justice/private-prisons https://www.aclu.org/issues/mass-incarceration/privatization...
    - bsenftner 9y ago
      I think it is highly likely that individual politicians accept lobby money from the private prison industry, which influences their votes on any issue impacting this "paying for their interests" constituent. Just repeat this, not very many times, and the nation's voting balance sways in their direction. Realize that each politician has a net of obligations, and by directly impacting a few's behavior, many other politicians are swayed due to their obligations towards their peers accepting lobby incentives. Speaking from experience, I worked very effectively as a lobbyist, until my ethics would not longer allow it.

tyingq 9y ago

This is a bigger problem than it used to be. Back in the day, small businesses didn't have access to background checks, so people with felony convictions could find employment. These days, a background check is a $10 service on a website. A felony conviction is now pretty much economic ruin. The only loopholes left are working as your own business, like hairdressers that rent space at a salon or day labor for under-the-table cash.

banned1 9y ago
That’s one narrative. The other narrative is that for $10 bucks I can protect myself, my family, and my business from terrible people. Whether they are terrible or “misguided” is up to me to decide, as it is whether to employ them or not. Again, not everybody in jail deserves humane treatment. There are animals in there. Maybe you have never been on the other end of crime, but there are humans who are animals.
- tyingq 9y ago
  Was with you up until ”not everybody in jail deserves humane treatment”
  - banned1 9y ago
    Sorry, I believe some crimes deserve death.
    - tyingq 9y ago
      Well, for those crimes that result in life sentences or the death penalty, background checks don't really come into play. There's a wide range of felonies that don't automatically make someone an animal.
- pc2g4d 9y ago
  "not everybody in jail deserves humane treatment" Maybe this attitude is part of why they're in jail in the first place.

lev99 9y ago

Part of the problem is it is legal to discriminate against felons and so many paths to success in our society are closed to them. A person with a felony is denied the pursuit of happiness.

banned1 9y ago
Why is it a problem? Wouldn’t you want to know the background of a person before hiring a nanny for your child? Now change nanny to employee and child to business.
- khedoros1 9y ago
  Wait...are we talking an employee in the sense of a CEO, or in the sense of some lower-level position? First, my child is more precious than my business. Second, a nanny has much more direct influence over a child than an employee does over a business (except in the case of particularly-powerful employees, of course). Third (and ignored by the person you responded too, as well), not all felonies are created equal.
  - banned1 9y ago
    Does it matter? What if it is a low level position and the person stabs someone at the first disagreement? Why do I have to take that risk?
    - khedoros1 9y ago
      > Does it matter? Stupid question. Yes. > What if it is a low level position and the person stabs someone at the first disagreement? Why do you assume that "felon = violent"? > Why do I have to take that risk? Every hire is a risk. Running a business is a risk in the first place. If you're risk-averse, you probably aren't running a business, anyhow. So, why do you take that risk? Presumably because you've concluded during the interview that they can perform the task that you're hiring for better than the other candidates. If they can't, then it's a moot point anyhow, isn't it?

jpao79 9y ago

I give my kids unlimited 24/7, AYCL (All You Can Learn) screen time on their own Chromebooks that are URL locked down to only khanacademy.org. They learn about math, business econ, history, etc. This really would be a game changer for these individuals and the costs could be marginal given a Chromebook is <$150 and Khan Academy could provide bulk discounts. Latest on Khan Academy: https://www.ted.com/talks/sal_khan_let_s_teach_for_mastery_not_test_scores/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/sal_khan_let_s_teach_for_mastery_n... There seem to be trials of the offline Version of Khan Academy (KALite) at a correctional facility in Idaho and Los Angelos: https://www.khanacademy.org/resources/out-of-school-time-programs/out-of-school-programs-case-studies/a/use-case-correctional-facilities https://www.khanacademy.org/resources/out-of-school-time-pro... https://learningequality.org/ka-lite/ https://learningequality.org/ka-lite/

Hydraulix989 9y ago
Why not add Codecademy and Wikipedia to the whitelist? Has anyone published a whitelist of educational web sites? Wouldn't be a bad idea. Could make it a collaborative effort, too, by versioning it with GitHub and accepting online pull requests with public discussion.
- jpao79 9y ago
  Good point - should have thought about coding when posting to HN. It does look like someone is leading the effort already. The key would be to keep the overhead low and encourage the participants to mentor each other somehow. https://ideas.ted.com/why-im-teaching-prisoners-to-code/ https://ideas.ted.com/why-im-teaching-prisoners-to-code/ https://thelastmile.org https://thelastmile.org