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Oh really? Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota, the company that literally

Oh really? Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota, the company that literally wrote the book on efficient manufacturing? https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-thinks-it-will-school-toyota-on-lean-manufacturing-fixing-model-3-launch-would-be-a-start/#45f4e2984c74 https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-th... Silicon Valley hubris can be downright embarrassing sometimes.

gameswithgo 9y ago
>Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular. >and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant than Toyota did.
- Cookingboy 9y ago
  >No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular. Last time I checked the big automakers all operate under Toyota's manufacturing philosophy (again, they literally wrote the book on this subject), and more than once Elon has dismissed industry's knowledge and experience in this field. Even without involving Toyota, most of "today's auto factories" operate at a better efficiency and are producing higher quality vehicles in a larger quantity than the Tesla factories. Maybe Elon is right, but it's best to say that kind of things after you are proven right.
  - windexh8er 9y ago
    They aren't "Toyota's manufacturing philosophy". Kaizen is, generally, a result of Deming and total quality management. Deming failed to convince top brass of American auto manufacturing and took his process elsewhere. Toyota and Mazda being the two more notables to adopt early. Read about GM's Hamtramck failures in the 80s for context on the ignorance of US auto brands as they tried to outdo Toyota after starting to lose the quality wars.
  - bicknergseng 9y ago
    You're all over the comments on this article dumping on Tesla's quality, but evidence seems to be anecdotal (in the form of comments on a forum for this article). Also last time I checked, the big automakers investigated and then abandoned Toyota's manufacturing strategies, and it's the Korean manufacturers who have taken top quality marks lately while Toyota has fallen. GM and American manufacturers may have improved, but are still straight garbage when it comes to quality control... I dare you to buy a Buick. You might be write, but as you said it's best to say that kind of things after you are proven right, and anecdotes and comments in a forum are hardly proof.
    - gamblor956 9y ago
      There are few surveys of Tesla owners because Tesla refuses to disclose buyer lists to third-party research companies that have been trying to conduct such surveys. Also, anecdotes are data. They're not observational data, but they're data all the same. One or two anecdotes might not indicate anything, but when you're dealing with dozens or even hundreds of anecdotes from disparate groups of owners, that's data that something is seriously amiss with Tesla build quality.
      - robkop 9y ago
        > Tesla refuses to disclose buyer lists to third-party research companies that have been trying to conduct such surveys. I would prefer it if my car manufacturer wasn't selling out my personal details so I can be harassed for surveys.
      - evrydayhustling 9y ago
        Is disclosing a buyer list really that big an obstacle to those research companies? Like, how much could I charge for a (large) list of Tesla owners? It seems like an easy thing to motivate (share your Tesla story, learn about other owners', here's a free t-shirt) and confirm (what's your VIN). Much easier than other target audiences to develop a true survey audience...
    - Cpoll 9y ago
      > Also last time I checked, the big automakers investigated and then abandoned Toyota's manufacturing strategies, and it's the Korean manufacturers who have taken top quality marks lately while Toyota has fallen. Is there anywhere I can read about this? I was still under the impression that Kanban/Kaizen and the whole package are the state of the art.
- njarboe 9y ago
  The Forbes article quotes Musk saying 50% more production should be achievable.
- IncRnd 9y ago
  > The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant than Toyota did. From the article: But that's just the beginning. Musk said he is considering a subterranean conveyance system that would carry seats and other sub-assemblies from nearby facilities to the assembly plant via new tunnels dug by The Boring Company, Musk's newest company. "These things get increasingly difficult, but they're all doable," he said. "But I can see a path where we get to, say, 600,000 Model 3 production and 100,000 S and X, so maybe 700,000, which should be like almost 50% more than GM or Toyota got out of the plant. I mean that seems achievable."
  - _Tev 9y ago
    Thanks for the quote! However: > he thinks Tesla will school Toyota vs > These things get increasingly difficult, but they're all doable [...] should be like almost 50% more than GM or Toyota got out of the plant. I mean that seems achievable. Musk has a lot of problems with idealism, but he seems to be pretty grounded here. Maybe still too idealistic ... But "seems achievable" === "Sillicon Valley hubris"? Should we stop with even thinking about improving anything?
    - IncRnd 9y ago
      I didn't mean to set you off. I was pointing out that your quote of 5% was wrong. It should be 50%.
usaphp 9y ago
> and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota When did he say that he thinks that?
njarboe 9y ago
IIRC the video where Musk was talking about how fast the assembly line moves, the "slower than a Grandma with a walker" on the speed of current auto line velocities is literally correct. He was discussing manufacturing plant efficiencies and how he was hoping to get Tesla's lines up to at least a walking speed. With Tesla right now, I think he is focusing more on the efficiency of the manufacturing process than the output quality. Maybe that is a bad idea and it might fail. But if he ends up with a large reductions in manufacturing costs/per car and can get quality up to industry standards, he will once again revolutionize the auto industry and other manufactures follow have to follow his lead.
- gamblor956 9y ago
  I think he is focusing more on the efficiency of the manufacturing process than the output quality. Citation needed. Tesla's current process is known to be a magnitude (or more) less efficient than any other Western car maker. Just a few months ago, they were still building Model 3 cars by hand. Tesla's having difficulty scaling up to monthly quantities that other car manufacturers can reach in under a week, and Tesla's quality control has dropped through the floor while it struggles to achieve that paltry output. Tesla might be able to achieve "large reductions in costs" and get quality up to industry standards, but after 10 years and 4 models of cars, they have yet to prove that they can achieve either.
  - wcunning 9y ago
    The F150 assembly line in Dearborn Assembly is ~650 trucks per 10 hour shift. They can't keep up with single shift numbers, much less weekly output.
  - matwood 9y ago
    > Just a few months ago, they were still building Model 3 cars by hand. And this why quality is all over the map. Manufacturing cars at scale is hard. It's a similar problem that Apple has. There are designs and components, and then there are designs and components you can manufacture at scale. The two are often very different.
  - 9y ago

gameswithgo 9y ago

>Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a walker" No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular. >and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant than Toyota did.

Cookingboy 9y ago
>No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular. Last time I checked the big automakers all operate under Toyota's manufacturing philosophy (again, they literally wrote the book on this subject), and more than once Elon has dismissed industry's knowledge and experience in this field. Even without involving Toyota, most of "today's auto factories" operate at a better efficiency and are producing higher quality vehicles in a larger quantity than the Tesla factories. Maybe Elon is right, but it's best to say that kind of things after you are proven right.
- windexh8er 9y ago
  They aren't "Toyota's manufacturing philosophy". Kaizen is, generally, a result of Deming and total quality management. Deming failed to convince top brass of American auto manufacturing and took his process elsewhere. Toyota and Mazda being the two more notables to adopt early. Read about GM's Hamtramck failures in the 80s for context on the ignorance of US auto brands as they tried to outdo Toyota after starting to lose the quality wars.
- bicknergseng 9y ago
  You're all over the comments on this article dumping on Tesla's quality, but evidence seems to be anecdotal (in the form of comments on a forum for this article). Also last time I checked, the big automakers investigated and then abandoned Toyota's manufacturing strategies, and it's the Korean manufacturers who have taken top quality marks lately while Toyota has fallen. GM and American manufacturers may have improved, but are still straight garbage when it comes to quality control... I dare you to buy a Buick. You might be write, but as you said it's best to say that kind of things after you are proven right, and anecdotes and comments in a forum are hardly proof.
  - gamblor956 9y ago
    There are few surveys of Tesla owners because Tesla refuses to disclose buyer lists to third-party research companies that have been trying to conduct such surveys. Also, anecdotes are data. They're not observational data, but they're data all the same. One or two anecdotes might not indicate anything, but when you're dealing with dozens or even hundreds of anecdotes from disparate groups of owners, that's data that something is seriously amiss with Tesla build quality.
    - robkop 9y ago
      > Tesla refuses to disclose buyer lists to third-party research companies that have been trying to conduct such surveys. I would prefer it if my car manufacturer wasn't selling out my personal details so I can be harassed for surveys.
    - evrydayhustling 9y ago
      Is disclosing a buyer list really that big an obstacle to those research companies? Like, how much could I charge for a (large) list of Tesla owners? It seems like an easy thing to motivate (share your Tesla story, learn about other owners', here's a free t-shirt) and confirm (what's your VIN). Much easier than other target audiences to develop a true survey audience...
  - Cpoll 9y ago
    > Also last time I checked, the big automakers investigated and then abandoned Toyota's manufacturing strategies, and it's the Korean manufacturers who have taken top quality marks lately while Toyota has fallen. Is there anywhere I can read about this? I was still under the impression that Kanban/Kaizen and the whole package are the state of the art.
njarboe 9y ago
The Forbes article quotes Musk saying 50% more production should be achievable.
IncRnd 9y ago
> The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant than Toyota did. From the article: But that's just the beginning. Musk said he is considering a subterranean conveyance system that would carry seats and other sub-assemblies from nearby facilities to the assembly plant via new tunnels dug by The Boring Company, Musk's newest company. "These things get increasingly difficult, but they're all doable," he said. "But I can see a path where we get to, say, 600,000 Model 3 production and 100,000 S and X, so maybe 700,000, which should be like almost 50% more than GM or Toyota got out of the plant. I mean that seems achievable."
- _Tev 9y ago
  Thanks for the quote! However: > he thinks Tesla will school Toyota vs > These things get increasingly difficult, but they're all doable [...] should be like almost 50% more than GM or Toyota got out of the plant. I mean that seems achievable. Musk has a lot of problems with idealism, but he seems to be pretty grounded here. Maybe still too idealistic ... But "seems achievable" === "Sillicon Valley hubris"? Should we stop with even thinking about improving anything?
  - IncRnd 9y ago
    I didn't mean to set you off. I was pointing out that your quote of 5% was wrong. It should be 50%.

usaphp 9y ago

> and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota When did he say that he thinks that?

njarboe 9y ago

IIRC the video where Musk was talking about how fast the assembly line moves, the "slower than a Grandma with a walker" on the speed of current auto line velocities is literally correct. He was discussing manufacturing plant efficiencies and how he was hoping to get Tesla's lines up to at least a walking speed. With Tesla right now, I think he is focusing more on the efficiency of the manufacturing process than the output quality. Maybe that is a bad idea and it might fail. But if he ends up with a large reductions in manufacturing costs/per car and can get quality up to industry standards, he will once again revolutionize the auto industry and other manufactures follow have to follow his lead.

gamblor956 9y ago
I think he is focusing more on the efficiency of the manufacturing process than the output quality. Citation needed. Tesla's current process is known to be a magnitude (or more) less efficient than any other Western car maker. Just a few months ago, they were still building Model 3 cars by hand. Tesla's having difficulty scaling up to monthly quantities that other car manufacturers can reach in under a week, and Tesla's quality control has dropped through the floor while it struggles to achieve that paltry output. Tesla might be able to achieve "large reductions in costs" and get quality up to industry standards, but after 10 years and 4 models of cars, they have yet to prove that they can achieve either.
- wcunning 9y ago
  The F150 assembly line in Dearborn Assembly is ~650 trucks per 10 hour shift. They can't keep up with single shift numbers, much less weekly output.
- matwood 9y ago
  > Just a few months ago, they were still building Model 3 cars by hand. And this why quality is all over the map. Manufacturing cars at scale is hard. It's a similar problem that Apple has. There are designs and components, and then there are designs and components you can manufacture at scale. The two are often very different.
- 9y ago