9 ms·

Not surprising at all. In fact, many of the Chinese expats (visitors of mitbbs.com) are pro-china in general. They become less agreeing to western values after

Not surprising at all. In fact, many of the Chinese expats (visitors of mitbbs.com) are pro-china in general. They become less agreeing to western values after spending years in US. (I am one of those examples myself)

Abundnce10 9y ago
> They become less agreeing to western values after spending years in US. (I am one of those examples myself) Can you explain which values you're referring to and why you don't agree with them?
- aphextron 9y ago
  >Can you explain which values you're referring to and why you don't agree with them? I can imagine that personal property rights and freedom of speech are not included in that list of disagreeable values.
  - tonylinn80 9y ago
    democracy, to begin with... at least American style of democracy
    - sidcool 9y ago
      Elaborate.
      - tonylinn80 9y ago
        It'll take too much time to talk in details. Democracy in general in better than totalitarian in general, i don't disagree with that. However, establishing American democracy in China at this moment, most likely won't bring anything good or solve any problems China is facing now. And it's dangerous: If a presidential candidate say "Elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force", the most likely outcome is that he'll get a shit ton of votes for that stance.
        gurkendoktor 9y ago
        > And it's dangerous: If a presidential candidate say "Elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force", the most likely outcome is that he'll get a shit ton of votes for that stance. Sure, a revolution that ends in democracy would be extremely dangerous right now (the aftermath of Arab Spring comes to mind). But if Xi's CCP keeps repeating that the Chinese should feel deeply humiliated by the West, and that conquering Taiwan (and the South China Sea, etc...) is the only way out, then the situation will become increasingly dangerous no matter the form of government. It's fine if Chinese culture values stability, the problem is that ignoring politics leads to anything but.
        jeffcore 9y ago
        It seems like your real issue isn't with "American democracy", but democracy in general. It doesn't appear you have much faith in the Chinese people exercising power directly or through elected representatives.
        tonylinn80 9y ago
        I'd totally support that if it's working as designed. Having a level of indirectness is very different from having everyone vote for who becomes president. NPC has thousands of members, and I'd expect them to be much more educated and rational than general public overall (again, if the system actually works). They could be elected for various reasons and do not need majority vote of the entire population to become a member of NPC. Their opinions would be a lot more diverse.
        tonylinn80 9y ago
        The way Chinese government is supposed to work, is actually another form of democracy: People elect representatives to become "National People's Congress", which is supposed to have highest power in China, and decides who the president is going to be. The reality is that NPC do not have real power and the voting process to elect representatives are very flawed. However, if that actually work as designed, it's not entirely non-democratic, and it's a form I think would be a better fit for China at least in foreseeable future.
    - Abundnce10 9y ago
      Why?
Analemma_ 9y ago
> green account created 2 days ago to post on news about Xi abolishing term limits I'm curious, do you literally get 50 cents for each of these posts, or are you salaried?
- seanmcdirmid 9y ago
  Wu mao is more like 7 cents.
- phyller 9y ago
  The moment the Chinese government becomes aware of hacker news and starts paying people 50 cents a post, we won't be able to even find the legitimate comments under the epic pile of shill :D I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, when I think about it. Also, there are actual Chinese people (a lot of them) that are pretty supportive of their government. And many that aren't. But unfortunately you can't assume trolling behavior based on this.
cornholio 9y ago
One should asume "pro-China" means against dictatorship and presidents for life, right? There is no people or culture on Earth that stands to gain from oligarchy.
- tonylinn80 9y ago
  You'd be surprised how many people in China are seriously pro-amendment, and agrees that Xi should have a 3rd term or more. Though it's probably also true that tons of people are shocked by the news
  - cornholio 9y ago
    I've looked a bit in your posting history and can't say with confidence that you are shill, but a certain patern is clearly emerging: the Chinese government is always right, it serves the people and listens to them, in fact it knows what people want; there is certainly no need for those pesky elections and wasted energy voting. Oligarchy ad infinitum. In the off chance that you are a real person, I'm sorry to say but you have the gullibility and critical thinking of a child and I mean that in the most non-ofensive way. It's troubling that propaganda could be so effective.
    - tonylinn80 9y ago
      lol, it's not a long history anyway. I'm glad you read. I came to read tech news mostly and didn't feel the need to create an account to post comment until a few days ago
  - antichronology 9y ago
    Probably similar to how a lot of Russian people are unwaveringly support Putin's continuous rule
- phyller 9y ago
  I'm an American, I've had many close Chinese friends. What follows is completely anecdotal, but I've spent a lot of time trying to wrap my mind around it, for what it is worth. Our cultures are incredibly different. At the same time our cultures are both unusually strong. And for some reason, part of American culture seems to be assuming everyone in the world is just like us, just in different circumstances. This is extremely foolish. It took me quite a while to be able to understand some things about my Chinese friends that really confused and sometimes frustrated me. A big part of it is the American concept of freedom and personal independence is practically part of our DNA, while it is not valued very highly by many Chinese. Stability, peace and order are highly valued. Of course it would be nice to be able to do whatever you want, but it is much more important that the government is strong. Period. And you get away with what you can as an individual (I've noticed much less respect for the rule of law, much greater respect for personal relationships). And of course many (not all) are highly patriotic, as a great culture with a great history that has been under great pressure for generations, and feels that the rest of the world doesn't respect them like they should or wants to see them fail. I guess I'd sum it up, that it seems to me an unusual amount of mainland Chinese would choose strength over freedom, and almost all mainland Chinese see themselves as part of a bigger society and a somewhat oppressive government is inevitable and it is futile to resist. In America, we would prefer to free 10 guilty people than unjustly imprison 1 innocent person. In China, the concept is reversed, it is better to imprison 10 innocent people than let 1 guilty person go free. I actually heard someone say that. Think about it.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
davesque 9y ago
I'm inclined to believe you're not legit.
- sctb 9y ago
  > Don't accuse others of astroturfing or shillage. Email us and we'll look into it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Abundnce10 9y ago

> They become less agreeing to western values after spending years in US. (I am one of those examples myself) Can you explain which values you're referring to and why you don't agree with them?

aphextron 9y ago
>Can you explain which values you're referring to and why you don't agree with them? I can imagine that personal property rights and freedom of speech are not included in that list of disagreeable values.
- tonylinn80 9y ago
  democracy, to begin with... at least American style of democracy
  - sidcool 9y ago
    Elaborate.
    - tonylinn80 9y ago
      It'll take too much time to talk in details. Democracy in general in better than totalitarian in general, i don't disagree with that. However, establishing American democracy in China at this moment, most likely won't bring anything good or solve any problems China is facing now. And it's dangerous: If a presidential candidate say "Elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force", the most likely outcome is that he'll get a shit ton of votes for that stance.
      - gurkendoktor 9y ago
        > And it's dangerous: If a presidential candidate say "Elect me and we'll take Taiwan back by force", the most likely outcome is that he'll get a shit ton of votes for that stance. Sure, a revolution that ends in democracy would be extremely dangerous right now (the aftermath of Arab Spring comes to mind). But if Xi's CCP keeps repeating that the Chinese should feel deeply humiliated by the West, and that conquering Taiwan (and the South China Sea, etc...) is the only way out, then the situation will become increasingly dangerous no matter the form of government. It's fine if Chinese culture values stability, the problem is that ignoring politics leads to anything but.
      - jeffcore 9y ago
        It seems like your real issue isn't with "American democracy", but democracy in general. It doesn't appear you have much faith in the Chinese people exercising power directly or through elected representatives.
        tonylinn80 9y ago
        I'd totally support that if it's working as designed. Having a level of indirectness is very different from having everyone vote for who becomes president. NPC has thousands of members, and I'd expect them to be much more educated and rational than general public overall (again, if the system actually works). They could be elected for various reasons and do not need majority vote of the entire population to become a member of NPC. Their opinions would be a lot more diverse.
      - tonylinn80 9y ago
        The way Chinese government is supposed to work, is actually another form of democracy: People elect representatives to become "National People's Congress", which is supposed to have highest power in China, and decides who the president is going to be. The reality is that NPC do not have real power and the voting process to elect representatives are very flawed. However, if that actually work as designed, it's not entirely non-democratic, and it's a form I think would be a better fit for China at least in foreseeable future.
  - Abundnce10 9y ago
    Why?

Analemma_ 9y ago

> green account created 2 days ago to post on news about Xi abolishing term limits I'm curious, do you literally get 50 cents for each of these posts, or are you salaried?

seanmcdirmid 9y ago
Wu mao is more like 7 cents.
phyller 9y ago
The moment the Chinese government becomes aware of hacker news and starts paying people 50 cents a post, we won't be able to even find the legitimate comments under the epic pile of shill :D I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, when I think about it. Also, there are actual Chinese people (a lot of them) that are pretty supportive of their government. And many that aren't. But unfortunately you can't assume trolling behavior based on this.

cornholio 9y ago

One should asume "pro-China" means against dictatorship and presidents for life, right? There is no people or culture on Earth that stands to gain from oligarchy.

tonylinn80 9y ago
You'd be surprised how many people in China are seriously pro-amendment, and agrees that Xi should have a 3rd term or more. Though it's probably also true that tons of people are shocked by the news
- cornholio 9y ago
  I've looked a bit in your posting history and can't say with confidence that you are shill, but a certain patern is clearly emerging: the Chinese government is always right, it serves the people and listens to them, in fact it knows what people want; there is certainly no need for those pesky elections and wasted energy voting. Oligarchy ad infinitum. In the off chance that you are a real person, I'm sorry to say but you have the gullibility and critical thinking of a child and I mean that in the most non-ofensive way. It's troubling that propaganda could be so effective.
  - tonylinn80 9y ago
    lol, it's not a long history anyway. I'm glad you read. I came to read tech news mostly and didn't feel the need to create an account to post comment until a few days ago
- antichronology 9y ago
  Probably similar to how a lot of Russian people are unwaveringly support Putin's continuous rule
phyller 9y ago
I'm an American, I've had many close Chinese friends. What follows is completely anecdotal, but I've spent a lot of time trying to wrap my mind around it, for what it is worth. Our cultures are incredibly different. At the same time our cultures are both unusually strong. And for some reason, part of American culture seems to be assuming everyone in the world is just like us, just in different circumstances. This is extremely foolish. It took me quite a while to be able to understand some things about my Chinese friends that really confused and sometimes frustrated me. A big part of it is the American concept of freedom and personal independence is practically part of our DNA, while it is not valued very highly by many Chinese. Stability, peace and order are highly valued. Of course it would be nice to be able to do whatever you want, but it is much more important that the government is strong. Period. And you get away with what you can as an individual (I've noticed much less respect for the rule of law, much greater respect for personal relationships). And of course many (not all) are highly patriotic, as a great culture with a great history that has been under great pressure for generations, and feels that the rest of the world doesn't respect them like they should or wants to see them fail. I guess I'd sum it up, that it seems to me an unusual amount of mainland Chinese would choose strength over freedom, and almost all mainland Chinese see themselves as part of a bigger society and a somewhat oppressive government is inevitable and it is futile to resist. In America, we would prefer to free 10 guilty people than unjustly imprison 1 innocent person. In China, the concept is reversed, it is better to imprison 10 innocent people than let 1 guilty person go free. I actually heard someone say that. Think about it.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

davesque 9y ago

I'm inclined to believe you're not legit.

sctb 9y ago
> Don't accuse others of astroturfing or shillage. Email us and we'll look into it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html