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The best part about tech in NYC is that it isn't a non-stop, in-your-face bubble the way that it is in SF/SJ. I work in tech but enjoy having friends in fashion

The best part about tech in NYC is that it isn't a non-stop, in-your-face bubble the way that it is in SF/SJ. I work in tech but enjoy having friends in fashion, finance, real estate, advertising, etc. The conversations here are much more diverse. Interestingly, that same diversity helps improve the tech sector.

mdolon 9y ago
This was a critical factor that led to me relocating from SF to NYC. While it's nice having every tech giant and startup in close proximity, the homogenous conversations and social interactions were a huge drawback. There's definitely a trade-off -- while it's nice being exposed to the issues people experience in a variety of industries, it was nice having easy access to engineers/friends willing to hack on ideas in SF.
technofiend 9y ago
I can't help but wonder if the recent tax changes will have any effect in consolidating East Coast tech jobs. Previously you could live in NJ and work in Manhattan and write off the respective taxes of each. Now it's my understanding you'd be better served (for example) living and working solely in New Jersey. See [1] for an actual discussion on the tax law changes State and local taxes. Taxpayers can deduct a maximum of $10,000 from the total of their state and local income taxes or sales taxes, and their property taxes (added together), a measure that might hurt itemizers in high-tax states such as California, New York and New Jersey. The $10,000 cap applies whether you are single or married filing jointly; if you are married filing separately, it drops to $5,000. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/how-gop-tax-bill-affects-you/ https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/how-gop-tax-bill-affects-... Based on that maybe we'll see clustering on each side of the river? Entirely speculation on my part, of course.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  I don't see what the federal tax changes would have to do with commuting from NJ to NY? The change in federal law has to do with deducting the total amount of state and local taxes paid, which is, going forward, capped at $10k. New Jersey credits any tax paid to New York, which is staying the same.
  - technofiend 9y ago
    > New Jersey credits any tax paid to New York, which is staying the same. 1) I was concerned that may no longer be the case, so thanks for that, but 2) if your net tax burden is > $10k because of double taxation then doesn't it make sense to exit one of the two places taxing you, thus lowering your overall burden? I.E. Even if NJ Tax is $6k and NYC is $5K that still means there's a $1k incentive to no longer work in one place and live in the other. That's my point.
    - lotsofpulp 9y ago
      "Double taxation" would be if you paid income tax in full to both NJ and NY, but that's not what happens since NJ provides a dollar for dollar credit for the income tax you pay to NY. Therefore, you only ever pay the maximum of either the income tax you owe NJ or the income tax you owe NY. You're right that the new federal tax law could incentivize people to move from places with higher state and local taxes to places with lower state and local taxes, but the differences between NJ/NY/CT are negligible. The only big difference would be moving out of New York City, as that would save you up to ~20% (federal tax rate) of 3.5% (NYC income tax rate) of your income, but I doubt many people are willing to trade in their quality of life in NYC just for that.
elefanten 9y ago
Sounds like something of your own making. Actual tech employees in the Bay Area are still an overwhelming minority of people. Yes, tech is more of a minority in NY and NY is more of a hub for other industries. But if you only hung out with tech employees in SF, that was a bubble of your own creation.
- mdolon 9y ago
  Having lived in both SOMA and the Mission, I wholeheartedly disagree. The vast majority of people I met at coffee shops, restaurants or bars in the city worked in tech. Living in Manhattan (East Village) and Brooklyn provided a completely different experience. It was a rare to meet people who work in tech. In both circumstances, I haven't been going out of my way to try to meet people in any specific industry.
  - randomdata 9y ago
    > Having lived in both SOMA and the Mission, I wholeheartedly disagree. No need to rely on anecdotes though. According to San Francisco’s Controller’s Office, a little over 6% of the population work in the tech industry[1]. That is an unquestionably small minority of the overall population. If the people you have met predominantly worked in tech, it is likely due to a bubble you created yourself. Perhaps, for example, the majority of the population outside of tech cannot afford to spend time at those coffee shops and restaurants? [1] https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/20/why-san-francisco-isnt-the-new-new-york/ https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/20/why-san-francisco-...
    - mbesto 9y ago
      > the majority of the population outside of tech cannot afford to spend time at those coffee shops and restaurants? That's probably the parent's point - your likely to see more people in your cohort in NYC that don't work in tech then those that do. > According to San Francisco’s Controller’s Office, a little over 6% of the population work in the tech industry[1]. That is an unquestionably small minority of the overall population. SF is just one part of the bay area. Head down to PAMPA and MV/Cupertino where the big employers are and I'd be willing to bet that % is much higher.
rch 9y ago
Agreed. Although I did miss meeting engineers from other disciplines (EE, Mechanical, Chem. E., etc). I'm not sure if they are simply scarce in Manhattan, or if I was in the wrong places.
- lotsofpulp 9y ago
  I'm assuming that a greater portion of that type of work isn't do-able in an office farm. Businesses need to make a certain amount of money per square foot, so labs and whatnot aren't feasible.
- mdolon 9y ago
  There are a ton of tech meetups in the city, check them out. https://www.meetup.com/find/tech/?allMeetups=false&radius=5&userFreeform=new+york&mcId=c10001&change=yes&sort=default https://www.meetup.com/find/tech/?allMeetups=false&radius=5&...
  - rch 9y ago
    I did, and they were fine. Still no aerospace engineers or plasma physicists (for example).
adrianparsons 9y ago
I completely agree. I also love the influence NYC industries have on tech startups. Warby Parker is tech+fashion, Buzzfeed is tech+media, Betterment is tech+finance.
- longerthoughts 9y ago
  Seems like it's time to stop calling companies tech companies just because they hire software engineers and leverage some degree of modern technology to provide their product or service. Warby Parker sells glasses and Buzzfeed is a media company - I have a hard time seeing how either of these qualify as tech startups.
  - Cd00d 9y ago
    There's a meet up group here in NYC called Tech in Motion, and a few years ago launched an annual awards event. The company that won 'Best Tech Company of the Year' was Casper, and my only thought was 'selling mattresses through the mail is considered technology'?
    - longerthoughts 9y ago
      Perfect example. I guess at some point along the way the familiar tech startup narrative got peoples' minds to associate all startups with tech. Makes me wonder where the line is. What qualifies a company as a tech company? Software/computing services/hardware as a primary revenue source?
      - Apocryphon 9y ago
        Then, are Uber, Lyft, on demand services even tech? Aren't they just fancy logistics/transport/delivery companies? Is Amazon only tech when it comes down to AWS and Alexa?
        longerthoughts 9y ago
        >Then, are Uber, Lyft, on demand services even tech? I would argue that they are not. They provide services that rely on technology and have been incredibly successful largely due to their embrace of technology, but I would describe Uber as on-demand transportation provider rather than a technology provider. >Is Amazon only tech when it comes down to AWS and Alexa? I understand calling Amazon a tech company because they have significant business lines as a technology provider, even if these do not constitute their entire business. While I have intuitive responses to companies like these, I really don't know where the line is (e.g. how much business one would have to do as a tech provider). I didn't intend to suggest a hard definition but posed the question because I'm genuinely interested in seeing peoples' thoughts on what constitutes a tech company.
giantsloth 9y ago
I find statements like this both cringe and problematic. The heavy emphasis on industry defined identity is creepy, extremely impersonal, and backwards. I've been a software developer in advertising, various startups and have friends in fashion and finance. While sure you can get some interesting insights into their industries, for example Gucci's new operating room spread is dope af, or the fact that hedge funds year over year make 20% on average using their "genius quants" (aka insider trading), I find that the actual people themselves are a relatively homogenous subculture across industries. That is a typically upper middle class white with a BS/BA in econ/finance/cs/communications who got "really drunk" in college, "loves" IPAs now and does sober February's as a challenge. These are all various shades of yuppie identity non-diverse in thought, culture, or world perspective. They are boring.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  > > The best part about tech in NYC is that it isn't a non-stop, in-your-face bubble the way that it is in SF/SJ > I find statements like this both cringe and problematic. I think the 1st sentence of the 1st comment is amusingly and inadvertently supported by the 2nd. These are all various shades of yuppie identity non-diverse in thought, culture, or world perspective. They are boring. You're painting with a pretty broad brush there, yourself. The diversity of thought and culture in the NYC area is breathtaking. It takes a lot of effort to navigate it at times, but it's definitely there. Hundreds of years worth. It used to be that the North East of the US kinda was the US. Half of the soldiers who went to fight in Europe in WWI were from New York state alone. A big part of US history of the 20th century has been the demographic, economic, and cultural shift away from the North East to the West and South. As a part of this, it's only natural that a new intelligentsia would arise on the West Coast and pooh-pooh the North East. It's a very common historical pattern. However, when it comes down to it, people living, thinking, and working in close proximity will create cultural value. To denigrate this is to throw out the baby with the bathwater if you are a humanist, or a progressive.
  - byproxy 9y ago
    I've always thought the stereotype was that of the metropolitan North East pooh-pooh-ing the West, e.g. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MaCXa3ZSH8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MaCXa3ZSH8
tomkarlo 9y ago
Given the share of SP500 profits that the Google/FB/Apple/Amazon gang currently capture, it's hard to describe it as a "bubble". Maybe "corporate hegemony"... but the situation is SF/SJ at this point is clearly driven by actual cash profits, not speculation, at this point. E.g. Google alone apparently owns the equivalent of 14 Salesforce Towers (the largest building in SF) worth of commercial real estate.

mdolon 9y ago

This was a critical factor that led to me relocating from SF to NYC. While it's nice having every tech giant and startup in close proximity, the homogenous conversations and social interactions were a huge drawback. There's definitely a trade-off -- while it's nice being exposed to the issues people experience in a variety of industries, it was nice having easy access to engineers/friends willing to hack on ideas in SF.

technofiend 9y ago

I can't help but wonder if the recent tax changes will have any effect in consolidating East Coast tech jobs. Previously you could live in NJ and work in Manhattan and write off the respective taxes of each. Now it's my understanding you'd be better served (for example) living and working solely in New Jersey. See [1] for an actual discussion on the tax law changes State and local taxes. Taxpayers can deduct a maximum of $10,000 from the total of their state and local income taxes or sales taxes, and their property taxes (added together), a measure that might hurt itemizers in high-tax states such as California, New York and New Jersey. The $10,000 cap applies whether you are single or married filing jointly; if you are married filing separately, it drops to $5,000. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/how-gop-tax-bill-affects-you/ https://www.investopedia.com/taxes/how-gop-tax-bill-affects-... Based on that maybe we'll see clustering on each side of the river? Entirely speculation on my part, of course.

lotsofpulp 9y ago
I don't see what the federal tax changes would have to do with commuting from NJ to NY? The change in federal law has to do with deducting the total amount of state and local taxes paid, which is, going forward, capped at $10k. New Jersey credits any tax paid to New York, which is staying the same.
- technofiend 9y ago
  > New Jersey credits any tax paid to New York, which is staying the same. 1) I was concerned that may no longer be the case, so thanks for that, but 2) if your net tax burden is > $10k because of double taxation then doesn't it make sense to exit one of the two places taxing you, thus lowering your overall burden? I.E. Even if NJ Tax is $6k and NYC is $5K that still means there's a $1k incentive to no longer work in one place and live in the other. That's my point.
  - lotsofpulp 9y ago
    "Double taxation" would be if you paid income tax in full to both NJ and NY, but that's not what happens since NJ provides a dollar for dollar credit for the income tax you pay to NY. Therefore, you only ever pay the maximum of either the income tax you owe NJ or the income tax you owe NY. You're right that the new federal tax law could incentivize people to move from places with higher state and local taxes to places with lower state and local taxes, but the differences between NJ/NY/CT are negligible. The only big difference would be moving out of New York City, as that would save you up to ~20% (federal tax rate) of 3.5% (NYC income tax rate) of your income, but I doubt many people are willing to trade in their quality of life in NYC just for that.

elefanten 9y ago

Sounds like something of your own making. Actual tech employees in the Bay Area are still an overwhelming minority of people. Yes, tech is more of a minority in NY and NY is more of a hub for other industries. But if you only hung out with tech employees in SF, that was a bubble of your own creation.

mdolon 9y ago
Having lived in both SOMA and the Mission, I wholeheartedly disagree. The vast majority of people I met at coffee shops, restaurants or bars in the city worked in tech. Living in Manhattan (East Village) and Brooklyn provided a completely different experience. It was a rare to meet people who work in tech. In both circumstances, I haven't been going out of my way to try to meet people in any specific industry.
- randomdata 9y ago
  > Having lived in both SOMA and the Mission, I wholeheartedly disagree. No need to rely on anecdotes though. According to San Francisco’s Controller’s Office, a little over 6% of the population work in the tech industry[1]. That is an unquestionably small minority of the overall population. If the people you have met predominantly worked in tech, it is likely due to a bubble you created yourself. Perhaps, for example, the majority of the population outside of tech cannot afford to spend time at those coffee shops and restaurants? [1] https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/20/why-san-francisco-isnt-the-new-new-york/ https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/03/20/why-san-francisco-...
  - mbesto 9y ago
    > the majority of the population outside of tech cannot afford to spend time at those coffee shops and restaurants? That's probably the parent's point - your likely to see more people in your cohort in NYC that don't work in tech then those that do. > According to San Francisco’s Controller’s Office, a little over 6% of the population work in the tech industry[1]. That is an unquestionably small minority of the overall population. SF is just one part of the bay area. Head down to PAMPA and MV/Cupertino where the big employers are and I'd be willing to bet that % is much higher.

rch 9y ago

Agreed. Although I did miss meeting engineers from other disciplines (EE, Mechanical, Chem. E., etc). I'm not sure if they are simply scarce in Manhattan, or if I was in the wrong places.

lotsofpulp 9y ago
I'm assuming that a greater portion of that type of work isn't do-able in an office farm. Businesses need to make a certain amount of money per square foot, so labs and whatnot aren't feasible.
mdolon 9y ago
There are a ton of tech meetups in the city, check them out. https://www.meetup.com/find/tech/?allMeetups=false&radius=5&userFreeform=new+york&mcId=c10001&change=yes&sort=default https://www.meetup.com/find/tech/?allMeetups=false&radius=5&...
- rch 9y ago
  I did, and they were fine. Still no aerospace engineers or plasma physicists (for example).

adrianparsons 9y ago

I completely agree. I also love the influence NYC industries have on tech startups. Warby Parker is tech+fashion, Buzzfeed is tech+media, Betterment is tech+finance.

longerthoughts 9y ago
Seems like it's time to stop calling companies tech companies just because they hire software engineers and leverage some degree of modern technology to provide their product or service. Warby Parker sells glasses and Buzzfeed is a media company - I have a hard time seeing how either of these qualify as tech startups.
- Cd00d 9y ago
  There's a meet up group here in NYC called Tech in Motion, and a few years ago launched an annual awards event. The company that won 'Best Tech Company of the Year' was Casper, and my only thought was 'selling mattresses through the mail is considered technology'?
  - longerthoughts 9y ago
    Perfect example. I guess at some point along the way the familiar tech startup narrative got peoples' minds to associate all startups with tech. Makes me wonder where the line is. What qualifies a company as a tech company? Software/computing services/hardware as a primary revenue source?
    - Apocryphon 9y ago
      Then, are Uber, Lyft, on demand services even tech? Aren't they just fancy logistics/transport/delivery companies? Is Amazon only tech when it comes down to AWS and Alexa?
      - longerthoughts 9y ago
        >Then, are Uber, Lyft, on demand services even tech? I would argue that they are not. They provide services that rely on technology and have been incredibly successful largely due to their embrace of technology, but I would describe Uber as on-demand transportation provider rather than a technology provider. >Is Amazon only tech when it comes down to AWS and Alexa? I understand calling Amazon a tech company because they have significant business lines as a technology provider, even if these do not constitute their entire business. While I have intuitive responses to companies like these, I really don't know where the line is (e.g. how much business one would have to do as a tech provider). I didn't intend to suggest a hard definition but posed the question because I'm genuinely interested in seeing peoples' thoughts on what constitutes a tech company.

giantsloth 9y ago

I find statements like this both cringe and problematic. The heavy emphasis on industry defined identity is creepy, extremely impersonal, and backwards. I've been a software developer in advertising, various startups and have friends in fashion and finance. While sure you can get some interesting insights into their industries, for example Gucci's new operating room spread is dope af, or the fact that hedge funds year over year make 20% on average using their "genius quants" (aka insider trading), I find that the actual people themselves are a relatively homogenous subculture across industries. That is a typically upper middle class white with a BS/BA in econ/finance/cs/communications who got "really drunk" in college, "loves" IPAs now and does sober February's as a challenge. These are all various shades of yuppie identity non-diverse in thought, culture, or world perspective. They are boring.

stcredzero 9y ago
> > The best part about tech in NYC is that it isn't a non-stop, in-your-face bubble the way that it is in SF/SJ > I find statements like this both cringe and problematic. I think the 1st sentence of the 1st comment is amusingly and inadvertently supported by the 2nd. These are all various shades of yuppie identity non-diverse in thought, culture, or world perspective. They are boring. You're painting with a pretty broad brush there, yourself. The diversity of thought and culture in the NYC area is breathtaking. It takes a lot of effort to navigate it at times, but it's definitely there. Hundreds of years worth. It used to be that the North East of the US kinda was the US. Half of the soldiers who went to fight in Europe in WWI were from New York state alone. A big part of US history of the 20th century has been the demographic, economic, and cultural shift away from the North East to the West and South. As a part of this, it's only natural that a new intelligentsia would arise on the West Coast and pooh-pooh the North East. It's a very common historical pattern. However, when it comes down to it, people living, thinking, and working in close proximity will create cultural value. To denigrate this is to throw out the baby with the bathwater if you are a humanist, or a progressive.
- byproxy 9y ago
  I've always thought the stereotype was that of the metropolitan North East pooh-pooh-ing the West, e.g. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MaCXa3ZSH8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MaCXa3ZSH8

tomkarlo 9y ago

Given the share of SP500 profits that the Google/FB/Apple/Amazon gang currently capture, it's hard to describe it as a "bubble". Maybe "corporate hegemony"... but the situation is SF/SJ at this point is clearly driven by actual cash profits, not speculation, at this point. E.g. Google alone apparently owns the equivalent of 14 Salesforce Towers (the largest building in SF) worth of commercial real estate.