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The first thing I did when I opened this article was search for "rat", and was happy to see it there. From the comments I saw I had a hunch it might be: I recen

The first thing I did when I opened this article was search for "rat", and was happy to see it there. From the comments I saw I had a hunch it might be: I recently finished a really powerful chapter in the book "Chasing the Scream: The First and Last Days of the War on Drugs" which describes an experiment involving rats that ostensibly shows that addiction isn't about the chemical, but rather it's about the environment and feeling alone. But that chapter also discussed the broader challenge of escaping the view point entrenched in a generation that has only known addiction as a direct result of chemical action. And a huge part of this article, at least the first half or so I got through, painted this chemical action picture: "The molecules derived from it have effectively conquered contemporary America." and it kept going on and on, to describe all the effects in wondrous terms, which seems to just reinforce what the book I've been reading claims are already a societal level view points. I'm by no means qualified to speak about addiction from a public health stand point, nor do I really understand the pharmacological action of any drugs. But this book highlights many experiments or studies that indicate our current thinking is ass backwards, only to have the work squashed and funding ripped away. Now, I cannot stop but seeing these threads in most content produced regarding the drug war or opioid crisis. It'd be nice to know for sure, but it has become very difficult to even entertain the bullshit that politicians are still peddling w.r.t. to the drug war and realistic solutions.

lamename 9y ago
Environment and social setting is known to be important for addiction (along with basically everything else in perception and behavior, e.g. compensatory responses [1]), I think it's just a matter of how long it takes for scientific nuance to go mainstream. The simplified picture is still often the chemical picture, imo, for 2 reasons: 1) the public forgets that the brain is an organ that obeys physical laws, and that behavior and perception depend entirely on the brain. 2) Ok, yes, environment is important, but how is that represented in the brain? It's still physiological, which inevitably includes chemicals. [1] http://nobaproject.com/modules/conditioning-and-learning http://nobaproject.com/modules/conditioning-and-learning
foxbarrington 9y ago
In addition to rat park[0], there's also been an amazing study wrt to Viet Nam vets[1]. Only 5% of soldiers relapsed to heroin use in the first year of returning home. Compared to a traditional 90% relapse rate when addicts treated in the US return to their homes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/05/371894919/what-heroin-addiction-tells-us-about-changing-bad-habits https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/05/3718949...
- lamename 9y ago
  This is one reason why 1) some rehab is more effective than others 2) people aren't always encouraged to go back to their home environment after rehab
- noahdesu 9y ago
  Ahh yes, this story of Vietnam is also in the book. Thanks for mentioning it. It was also a really powerful anecdote.
- andrewjl 9y ago
  I find the rat park experiment intriguing, but have there been any further studies or attempts to replicate the results?
  - emiliobumachar 9y ago
    From http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/, slightly paraphrased to disambiguate the references. I do highly recommend this blog post if you're interested in the topic. "Two studies (1, 2) tried and failed to replicate the results. Another two (3, 4) tried and mostly succeeded. There’s some concern that the rat strain involved might have various substrains that the different experiments didn’t control for. But a result that can’t survive a change in rat substrains has pretty dismal prospects for applicability to humans." [1] http://sci-hub.io/10.2466/pr0.1996.78.2.391 http://sci-hub.io/10.2466/pr0.1996.78.2.391 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2616610 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2616610 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3696469 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3696469 [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463628 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463628
jaredhansen 9y ago
Regarding the Rat Park experiment, Scott Alexander had a pretty thorough discussion here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/
- api 9y ago
  TL;DR: like almost everything else in human psychology "it's complicated" and there are "many factors" yayaya...
majormajor 9y ago
It definitely seems like a mix. I've been addicted (to the point of losing thousands and thousands) to gambling in the past - looking for a way out, something to change things financially - but alcohol or narcotic drugs did nothing for me. But I knew other people in the same situation whose relief came - more destructively, more difficult to recover from - from the drugs.
- newnewpdro 9y ago
  Did you try psychedelic drugs? Ibogaine [1] has been found to be particularly effective in helping those suffering from addiction. Psilocybin has also seen research in this area with some positive results. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine#Addiction_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine#Addiction_treatment [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#Research
  - majormajor 9y ago
    For me it was adderall to bootstrap getting started at finishing a college degree, eventually discontinued after building enough positive habits and getting into a position where my actions were having positive results.
- danieltillett 9y ago
  I have to say I find addiction to gambling quite fascinating as I get absolutely no pleasure from gambling. The thinking a gambler must have is so different to my thinking that it is impossible for me to imagine what they are thinking. My observations from Mars of people at casinos gambling is nobody seems to be having a good time there.
  - jacobolus 9y ago
    The Las Vegas airport is one of the most depressing places in the world. A few years ago I looked on as a mother in a zombie trance dumped a bucket of quarters into a slot machine one by one while her young child sobbed and tried to drag her away to no response. They were presumably waiting to get on a plane home after a weekend of losing bigger money gambling.
arprocter 9y ago
The author mentioned by Sullivan (Johann Hari) was recently on Joe Rogan #1077
njwi332 9y ago
The article specifically mentions Chasing the Scream in the second half. I do recommend finishing it.

lamename 9y ago

Environment and social setting is known to be important for addiction (along with basically everything else in perception and behavior, e.g. compensatory responses [1]), I think it's just a matter of how long it takes for scientific nuance to go mainstream. The simplified picture is still often the chemical picture, imo, for 2 reasons: 1) the public forgets that the brain is an organ that obeys physical laws, and that behavior and perception depend entirely on the brain. 2) Ok, yes, environment is important, but how is that represented in the brain? It's still physiological, which inevitably includes chemicals. [1] http://nobaproject.com/modules/conditioning-and-learning http://nobaproject.com/modules/conditioning-and-learning

foxbarrington 9y ago

In addition to rat park[0], there's also been an amazing study wrt to Viet Nam vets[1]. Only 5% of soldiers relapsed to heroin use in the first year of returning home. Compared to a traditional 90% relapse rate when addicts treated in the US return to their homes. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/05/371894919/what-heroin-addiction-tells-us-about-changing-bad-habits https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2015/01/05/3718949...

lamename 9y ago
This is one reason why 1) some rehab is more effective than others 2) people aren't always encouraged to go back to their home environment after rehab
noahdesu 9y ago
Ahh yes, this story of Vietnam is also in the book. Thanks for mentioning it. It was also a really powerful anecdote.
andrewjl 9y ago
I find the rat park experiment intriguing, but have there been any further studies or attempts to replicate the results?
- emiliobumachar 9y ago
  From http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/, slightly paraphrased to disambiguate the references. I do highly recommend this blog post if you're interested in the topic. "Two studies (1, 2) tried and failed to replicate the results. Another two (3, 4) tried and mostly succeeded. There’s some concern that the rat strain involved might have various substrains that the different experiments didn’t control for. But a result that can’t survive a change in rat substrains has pretty dismal prospects for applicability to humans." [1] http://sci-hub.io/10.2466/pr0.1996.78.2.391 http://sci-hub.io/10.2466/pr0.1996.78.2.391 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2616610 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2616610 [3] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3696469 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3696469 [4] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463628 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18463628

jaredhansen 9y ago

Regarding the Rat Park experiment, Scott Alexander had a pretty thorough discussion here: http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/10/25/against-rat-park/

api 9y ago
TL;DR: like almost everything else in human psychology "it's complicated" and there are "many factors" yayaya...

majormajor 9y ago

It definitely seems like a mix. I've been addicted (to the point of losing thousands and thousands) to gambling in the past - looking for a way out, something to change things financially - but alcohol or narcotic drugs did nothing for me. But I knew other people in the same situation whose relief came - more destructively, more difficult to recover from - from the drugs.

newnewpdro 9y ago
Did you try psychedelic drugs? Ibogaine [1] has been found to be particularly effective in helping those suffering from addiction. Psilocybin has also seen research in this area with some positive results. [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine#Addiction_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibogaine#Addiction_treatment [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#Research https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin#Research
- majormajor 9y ago
  For me it was adderall to bootstrap getting started at finishing a college degree, eventually discontinued after building enough positive habits and getting into a position where my actions were having positive results.
danieltillett 9y ago
I have to say I find addiction to gambling quite fascinating as I get absolutely no pleasure from gambling. The thinking a gambler must have is so different to my thinking that it is impossible for me to imagine what they are thinking. My observations from Mars of people at casinos gambling is nobody seems to be having a good time there.
- jacobolus 9y ago
  The Las Vegas airport is one of the most depressing places in the world. A few years ago I looked on as a mother in a zombie trance dumped a bucket of quarters into a slot machine one by one while her young child sobbed and tried to drag her away to no response. They were presumably waiting to get on a plane home after a weekend of losing bigger money gambling.

arprocter 9y ago

The author mentioned by Sullivan (Johann Hari) was recently on Joe Rogan #1077

njwi332 9y ago

The article specifically mentions Chasing the Scream in the second half. I do recommend finishing it.