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I wonder would China ban Apple if they refused to do this? Why is Apple submitting to all the demands of the Chinese government?

IntronExon 9y ago
For money and to keep some other player from that money. I don’t think this is a particularly difficult thing to understand, you just need nuclear-grade powers of rationalization and greed.
- cschep 9y ago
  But how would not selling iPhones in China, on principle, help anyone? The perfect world where Apple tells China what to do doesn't exist. Ok. We know that. Now what? Bail? Why? Stick around and play by the rules and play the game and maybe someday make 1% positive difference? Seems like the lesser of two evils to me.
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    I recognize that rape, robbery, assault and murder are sadly inevitable parts of human life, but I refuse to participate in, aid, or abett it. The inevitability of wrong-doing is not license to be a doer. So it’s not the lesser of two evils, it’s just participation in evil for profit.
    - ribosometronome 9y ago
      Do you pay taxes to a country that has a violent military presence in the Middle East (or any other conflict area)? Or to a local police department that has any history of unnecessary force to police non-violent crimes? Most of us do. We don't have much of a choice. We could choose to earn so little that we don't have to pay much or anything in taxes or move elsewhere but, well, we want to live better that or live in a specific area.
      - IntronExon 9y ago
        This isn’t even good whataboutism, it’s downright lazy. Apple is a giant corporation that avoids taxes, not a citizen with few or no choices. This is a business maximizing profit, by choice, in another market.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    Just because someone is going to get screwed either way, doesn't mean it's OK to be the one screwing them. Apple claims that they care about the privacy of their users, but this demonstrates that they don't care at all.
    - prewett 9y ago
      No it doesn't. It demonstrates that Apple respects the laws of the country it operates in. Apple has no moral responsibility to force its privacy views on other countries, and it has no power to do so anyway. Furthermore, Apple has a responsibility to respect the choices of other people. If China had a democratically elected government that choose to intercept all communication crossing its borders, I think Apple would have a moral obligation to either respect that or not do business there. The present government is in power partly because the previous government was so bad that the peasants preferred the Communists, so you could even argue that the present government is there by the will of the people, in some limited sense. We can't just force other people to have our standard.
      - IntronExon 9y ago
        We can’t force anything, but profiting from it is another story which contains a moral dimension regardless of your ideological stance. There is no legal responsibility, but morals are sticky. For what it’s worth though, I appreciate your demonstration of the rationalization I mentioned in my first comment.
      - CaptSpify 9y ago
        Yes, it does. Apple has the option to not do business there. They can simply walk away. And by walking away, they are allowing other people to hold onto their own beliefs, while not encouraging them. > Furthermore, Apple has a responsibility to respect the choices of other people. If China had a democratically elected government that choose to intercept all communication crossing its borders, I think Apple would have a moral obligation to either respect that or not do business there. The present government is in power partly because the previous government was so bad that the peasants preferred the Communists, so you could even argue that the present government is there by the will of the people, in some limited sense. We can't just force other people to have our standard. I don't really disagree with this, but I'm not sure what it has to do with what I posted. Not doing business with a group of people because you disagree with how they want that business done is completely unrelated to "forcing other people to have our standard".
seanmcdirmid 9y ago
> I wonder would China ban Apple if they refused to do this? Yes. > Why is Apple submitting to all the demands of the Chinese government? China is Apple's second or first largest market, depending on the quarter.
- mmrezaie 9y ago
  > Yes. I am not sure how you can know that. I am actually sure Apple would have lost some market but not much and there could have been stuff they could do to let it happen rather than now just giving up everything to any authoritarian government. Maybe Apple could have gained some respect and then market share if they would have stood firm. With this new management, Apple has become just focused on business (income) not what they were known to be passionate about.
  - mattnewton 9y ago
    We know that because China has banned western tech companies in the past when they don’t play ball. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-facebook-banned-china.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-f... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China Also twitter and Snapchat.
    - dwringer 9y ago
      As I understand it, Google actually had been cooperating with China's censorship requests, but didn't like it, and Google made the decision themselves[1] to relocate offices [ED: web search was moved but Google maintains offices in mainland China] to Hong Kong rather than continue self-censorship. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/23/google-china-censorship-hong-kong https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/23/google-ch...
      - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
        Google didn't "relocate" to Hong Kong, their offices in Wudaokou kept running, they just shutdown their Mainland-based webserver.
castis 9y ago
> Why is Apple submitting to all the demands of the Chinese government? Money, and continued market dominance.
oh-kumudo 9y ago
They will ban iCloud in China, for sure.

IntronExon 9y ago

For money and to keep some other player from that money. I don’t think this is a particularly difficult thing to understand, you just need nuclear-grade powers of rationalization and greed.

cschep 9y ago
But how would not selling iPhones in China, on principle, help anyone? The perfect world where Apple tells China what to do doesn't exist. Ok. We know that. Now what? Bail? Why? Stick around and play by the rules and play the game and maybe someday make 1% positive difference? Seems like the lesser of two evils to me.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  I recognize that rape, robbery, assault and murder are sadly inevitable parts of human life, but I refuse to participate in, aid, or abett it. The inevitability of wrong-doing is not license to be a doer. So it’s not the lesser of two evils, it’s just participation in evil for profit.
  - ribosometronome 9y ago
    Do you pay taxes to a country that has a violent military presence in the Middle East (or any other conflict area)? Or to a local police department that has any history of unnecessary force to police non-violent crimes? Most of us do. We don't have much of a choice. We could choose to earn so little that we don't have to pay much or anything in taxes or move elsewhere but, well, we want to live better that or live in a specific area.
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      This isn’t even good whataboutism, it’s downright lazy. Apple is a giant corporation that avoids taxes, not a citizen with few or no choices. This is a business maximizing profit, by choice, in another market.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  Just because someone is going to get screwed either way, doesn't mean it's OK to be the one screwing them. Apple claims that they care about the privacy of their users, but this demonstrates that they don't care at all.
  - prewett 9y ago
    No it doesn't. It demonstrates that Apple respects the laws of the country it operates in. Apple has no moral responsibility to force its privacy views on other countries, and it has no power to do so anyway. Furthermore, Apple has a responsibility to respect the choices of other people. If China had a democratically elected government that choose to intercept all communication crossing its borders, I think Apple would have a moral obligation to either respect that or not do business there. The present government is in power partly because the previous government was so bad that the peasants preferred the Communists, so you could even argue that the present government is there by the will of the people, in some limited sense. We can't just force other people to have our standard.
    - IntronExon 9y ago
      We can’t force anything, but profiting from it is another story which contains a moral dimension regardless of your ideological stance. There is no legal responsibility, but morals are sticky. For what it’s worth though, I appreciate your demonstration of the rationalization I mentioned in my first comment.
    - CaptSpify 9y ago
      Yes, it does. Apple has the option to not do business there. They can simply walk away. And by walking away, they are allowing other people to hold onto their own beliefs, while not encouraging them. > Furthermore, Apple has a responsibility to respect the choices of other people. If China had a democratically elected government that choose to intercept all communication crossing its borders, I think Apple would have a moral obligation to either respect that or not do business there. The present government is in power partly because the previous government was so bad that the peasants preferred the Communists, so you could even argue that the present government is there by the will of the people, in some limited sense. We can't just force other people to have our standard. I don't really disagree with this, but I'm not sure what it has to do with what I posted. Not doing business with a group of people because you disagree with how they want that business done is completely unrelated to "forcing other people to have our standard".

seanmcdirmid 9y ago

> I wonder would China ban Apple if they refused to do this? Yes. > Why is Apple submitting to all the demands of the Chinese government? China is Apple's second or first largest market, depending on the quarter.

mmrezaie 9y ago
> Yes. I am not sure how you can know that. I am actually sure Apple would have lost some market but not much and there could have been stuff they could do to let it happen rather than now just giving up everything to any authoritarian government. Maybe Apple could have gained some respect and then market share if they would have stood firm. With this new management, Apple has become just focused on business (income) not what they were known to be passionate about.
- mattnewton 9y ago
  We know that because China has banned western tech companies in the past when they don’t play ball. https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-facebook-banned-china.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/042915/why-f... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_China Also twitter and Snapchat.
  - dwringer 9y ago
    As I understand it, Google actually had been cooperating with China's censorship requests, but didn't like it, and Google made the decision themselves[1] to relocate offices [ED: web search was moved but Google maintains offices in mainland China] to Hong Kong rather than continue self-censorship. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/23/google-china-censorship-hong-kong https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/mar/23/google-ch...
    - seanmcdirmid 9y ago
      Google didn't "relocate" to Hong Kong, their offices in Wudaokou kept running, they just shutdown their Mainland-based webserver.

castis 9y ago

> Why is Apple submitting to all the demands of the Chinese government? Money, and continued market dominance.

oh-kumudo 9y ago

They will ban iCloud in China, for sure.