9 ms·

China’s great leap forward in science

106 points by dsr12 9y ago

megaman22 9y ago
Not sure that's a title I would use... Hopefully this great leap forward doesn't kill 30-50 million people through misguided policies like the last one.
- thriftwy 9y ago
  I like that downwotes on this co. Shows people fighting for the right to forget events where their side screwed up. If you fight for not getting reminded, how would we make sure you still remember, eh?
  - rawTruthHurts 9y ago
    I'd rather blame ignorance of both history and English language.
- wmeredith 9y ago
  I was also shocked at this usage. Why employ such charged language in this way? It’s like if there was a holocaust on poverty or something announced by Germany. This is utterly bizarre.
  - hyperbovine 9y ago
    Hypothesis: the person who wrote this headline is some naive millennial who has no idea about the import of this phrase.
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  - shard972 9y ago
    Because it was only chinese that died and we westerners don't empathize with chinese as much? I know that's a bit offensive, but as you said you would see a headline about the holocaust on poverty, or the genocide of african rape or the shoa of fake shekels? But what about the holodomor on corruption? Does that sound like it could get past a non-ukrainian editor?
- Dude2021 9y ago
  That's a liberal-communist paper, what do you expect?
  - valgor 9y ago
    Speaking of not understanding words, you just called the Guardian communist... Please start here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
  - AsyncAwait 9y ago
    I wouldn't describe it as such by a long shot, they constantly attacked Corbyn, praise MbS etc. It's your typical neoliberal piece, moving further to the right with each passing election cycle.
    - shard972 9y ago
      The guardian to the right? I mean, can they even admit that current immigration policies in the UK are problematic? Last time I tried reading a piece they couldn't seem to get over that hurdle, and that's turning out to be a pretty centrist view point in europe currently.
      - AsyncAwait 9y ago
        That's what neoliberal basically means. Liberal on social policies, (i.e. they don't want to seem as bigoted towards any group of people), however on the economic & foreign policy front, they're quite to the right by liberal standards, (i.e. pro interventionist policy).
        shard972 9y ago
        Really? Again I see immigration as mostly economic and foreign policy so being left on that isn't a good start. Throw in the wage gap (an econ issue they are far left on) or their pro-eu stance (very left econ wise). Are you saying they are neoliberal because they are out and out socialists or something? What kind of right wing economic policies do they support aside from free trade which is not really strictly right/left anymore.
- paradite 9y ago
  Yes. To most native Chinese mainland people, the implied meaning of the title would be contradictory to the content of the article. If it was meant as a Chinese equivalence for "leapfrog", the author is certainly missing some research, presuming good intentions.
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radmuzom 9y ago
As an Indian, I am always pleased to see the advances China is making in all facets of life. It shows that another model of development is possible - and one need not blindly follow the American individualist/"free markets" model. In fact, one of the reason why we see an immediate influx of anti-China comments in any such article is driven by fear (possibly at a subconscious level) that the Chinese model actually works.
- narrator 9y ago
  There is also the Chinese model of finance. The Economist has been predicting a Japanese style financial crash in China due to enormous debt levels since at least the early 90s and it never happened. That's because money is electronically printed by the government and given to banks in exchange for bad loans on a regular basis. There is no debt default crisis. The banks just keep lending and no government debt is created like it would be in America if the government wanted to do the same thing. That this whole system has worked so well for 30 years completely undermines the entire basis of western macroeconomics and is the equivalent of telling a traditionally trained economist that the earth orbits the sun while they believed the opposite. It just does not compute and they can't even wrap their heads around it. Thus they keep predicting an imminent economic collapse every years even though they've been wrong for more than 25 years.
  - rushabh 9y ago
    This model works because China run a huge trade surplus, and its excess production is consumed by other countries. It would be interesting to see if this model can continue when the global trade balances out. In a way China is subsidizing goods for the most of the world. The outcome is the kind of political problems this is causing in most countries.
  - cjalmeida 9y ago
    It's not because it didn't happen yet that economists (or economic theory) are wrong. Chinese economy is growing so fast that they can essentially bail out banks (silently) whenever they want and have little impact on the budget. It should be interesting to see how it develops when the economic eventually slows down and China is no longer the cheap manufacturing park of the world. 25y is nothing. Japan went like that for 40y, from the end of WW2 to laye 80s. Until it stopped and never recovered since. Fortunately they stopped at a high income level. A more interesting history is that of Argentina. It was an export powerhouse that went from being a poor Spanish colony in early 1800s to having a per capita income as high as Germany or France in 1920s. After the crash all went downhill and income levels are back to mid levels.
quotemstr 9y ago
It's amazing how much progress a society can make when it isn't tearing itself apart through endless political internecine warfare over imaginary grievances. Group cohesion, trust, and commonality of purpose can make up for almost any material disadvantage.
- majos 9y ago
  ...except the point of this article seems to be that China's current scientific strength is largely a consequence of the state spending more money on science, i.e. material advantage.
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  - shard972 9y ago
    I believe he was referencing material capital as opposed to liquid capital (ie money). It would be fair to say the US not too long ago had a big headstart on existing technology/machines. In any case, I think China's cohesion can easily be seen just by looking at the differences in papers being published in china vs the west. For instance, you won't find many if any papers in china on the effects of diversity within society and the workplace. Unlike here, they don't seem to be urgently researching in this area.
    - yorwba 9y ago
      I have no way to check the relative number of papers about diversity published in China, but they do at least collect statistics. E.g. here is data compiled by the Ministry of Education, which is tabulated for categories such as gender, minority status or age: http://en.moe.gov.cn/Resources/Statistics/edu_stat_2016/2016_en01/index.html http://en.moe.gov.cn/Resources/Statistics/edu_stat_2016/2016...
      - shard972 9y ago
        Odd, I just get an infinite redirect when trying to load the page.
sexydefinesher 9y ago
People will tear their hair 100 years from now when we just watched and marvelled as this inhumane regime climbed to dominating the world.
- quotemstr 9y ago
  Maybe so, but they'll be able to look back and feel pride in how, for one brief shining moment, their ancestors got someone fired for something he said on Twitter. The current climate matters. It doesn't exist as a separate sphere distinct from technological innovation. It saps energy, destroys trust, and squanders human capital. And for what? I don't think it's possible to enforce a strict ideological orthodoxy in one area while leaving the mind free to be creative in others. If people regularly get burned following their ideas, they'll learn a generalized intellectual timidity. China doesn't have this particular social climate. It has many others, yes, including various human rights issues, but its problems don't seem as inimical to technical creativity as ours do.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    I thought that it's much easier to get in serious trouble for speaking politically unacceptable things in China? I suppose everybody just knows it and stays shut, while in the US the notion of free speech periodically leads people to an unpleasant discovery that going against the grain of the established narrative is very much unwelcome.
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      You are right about China. Limits on free speech are codified in their laws[1], and are designed to protect and maintain their government. The US is changing in a completely different way, forming a kind of McCarthyism[2] where those with bad opinions are forced out of jobs and communities. While expression is technically not illegal, Americans can have their careers destroyed for holding unfavorable opinions on contentious political issues. Given that healthcare, housing, and food depend on your career in the US, the repercussions of going against the grain can be nearly as bad as in China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#People's_Republic_of_China_(mainland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#P... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
maximexx 9y ago
That would be great news if their government was more humane and noble. But hey, at least it sounds less terrifying than: "North Korea's great leap forward in science".
smithmayowa 9y ago
As an African I do feel excited for what's to come, and do feel our strategic and growing alliance with China is going to be extremely beneficial, who knows some African countries will end up in similar positions countries like South Korea and Israel ended up with USA to China. But then again even if the above does not happen the mere fact that there Is a stable alternative to western ideology is immensely beneficial to the human race being epsilon greedy and what not.
- aaron-lebo 9y ago
  Genuinely hope you guys find an alternative that works, but authoritarianism is not much of an alternative. There's part of me that worries that China is going to end up exploiting those countries. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2014/05/china-africa-investment-exploitation-201454154158396626.html http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2014/05/chin...
  - mantas 9y ago
    It's not even alternative. It's pretty much colonialism 2.0. Just like Euro empires did in 19th century. The only difference is they give more autonomy to local clans. Although sometimes Europeans did give some autonomy too. So maybe not THAT much of a difference..
- musage 9y ago
  > who knows some African countries will end up in similar positions countries like South Korea and Israel ended up with USA Yes, but are you aware of the full extent of the meaning of that? Maybe your country also can have someone like Yeshayahu Leibowitz, very saddened and disgusted, and very correct -- and/or take part in something like the Vietnam war. Yay! And maybe then you can live in an endless flurry of propaganda, uprooting you from reality and placing you in a revisionist history. > the mere fact that there Is a stable alternative to western ideology is immensely beneficial to the human race being epsilon greedy Can you elaborate on this? What is Western ideology in your view, and what stable alternative does China propose? And is stability in Africa not much more desirable? How many countries sell their natural wealth to the highest bidder while their populations go poor or even starving? Being exploited by a different party in a "better" way isn't really that great, and it's not uncommon for new competitors in a market to be super extra nice until they beat the competition. Generally, Nneka's song "Africans" comes to mind, it's a good song.
majos 9y ago
My perception before and after reading this article is that the Chinese scientific establishment's strength has been making advances that rely on resource investment (e.g. China's dominance of various "biggest supercomputer"-type records), but that the restrictive political climate hinders their ability to attract good scientists.
- chibg10 9y ago
  I don't think it's the political climate. China isn't a particularly immigrant-friendly country, so the scientists they're going to attract are mostly going to be Chinese expats in the West... most of which aren't nearly as troubled by the CCP as typical Westerners are. In my experience, the bigger issues keeping Chinese expats away are QoL issues--air pollution, standard of living, etc.
  - idrios 9y ago
    As an American expat living in China and currently applying to grad schools for neuroscience research, I'll give my own personal anecdote. I considered applying to grad schools here, especially since some Chinese schools are quite highly ranked. Whenever I walk past Starbacks (not a typo) on my way to work, I'm reminded that there's very little respect for IP outside of China. I worry that if I ever came across promising research, someone else would take credit for it and I would be left with nothing. I'm friends with an American here who started a pretty successful restaurant selling Mexican food. He says that if a wealthy, prominent Chinese person liked his business, that person could start the exact same business across the street and then sue my friend for copying the business, and the Chinese person would win the lawsuit because my friend is a foreigner. In regards to the other things you said, air pollution is a thing but it wouldn't stop me from pursuing my career goals, and I expect it to get better. I think the standard of living here is pretty good (though that's mostly because most companies will pay foreigners a lot more than they'll pay locals, so your buying power is pretty high).
    - nopinsight 9y ago
      Genuine question, since I've never lived in China, any qualified foreigners or only qualified Westerners?
foodislove 9y ago
I wonder if the title is intentional. The "great leap forward" was a failed economic and social policy where the communists decided to fast forward development by skipping directly to industrialization. It didn't quite work and tens of millions of people died of famine as a result. What the article actually says, is that China is investing a lot in basic science. What is true is that while the quality of research per researcher in China is not that high, the sheer investment and focus coupled with quantity has led to a lot of scientific progress. My father is part of that thousand research program to lure specialists back to China. Having seen how he works in China compared to Australia, what the real advantage China has for researchers is that they give virtual free reign and all the resources needed (read: $$$, labs and all the grad students you want) to conduct research. For those who've never worked in academia, even though there is more academic freedom outside of China, there are whole loads of red tape (mostly well-intentioned) that slow things down. For example, at Princeton, any social science experiment involving people requires a panel to approve the ethics. A similar experiment in a Chinese university does not have the same requirements. Even if they did on paper, it would not be as rigorous. The same goes for expenditures. I remember my father complaining years ago about how for an Australian research project, spending research money on a special type of computer required additional approval even though the money for research was already granted. That's not the case in China. The net effect is that shockingly enough, the Chinese have managed to create almost a startup-like sandbox environment for researchers. In fields, particularly biotech, where there are ethical, and other red-tape considerations, the Chinese have an edge in producing results faster. Of course, this just means to get one cloned monkey, hundreds of independent teams mostly likely inhumanely murdered many multiples of monkeys to get to this result. What is important is to realize that for the Chinese, this sort of Stanlinist "only the results matter" approach is perfectly acceptable, if not encouraged. Most people would balk at the ethical and human cost, I know I do, but there is no doubt that it provides an advantage to Chinese scientists over those in the developed world. Multiply in the sheer number of Chinese scientists and you have results. Progress at any cost.
- dis-sys 9y ago
  your father worked for some pretty different projects I guess. I have close friends working in those so called 985 universities and they all had issues when they tried to buy those mentioned special computers when they are needed. there is no special approval procedures for them, they can not buy it without going through the annual purchase procedure managed directly by the department of education. they all gave up and end up renting those required computers from different vendors - apparently it is actually more expensive in long term but much easier in terms of paperwork. it also worth noticing that Australia is not the best example to use here. e.g. the NBN project would be considered as a typical corruption case under the Chinese laws, in fact one can argue that it is the textbook definition of corruption in Chinese standard. Think about it - there is no ethics showstopper when laying fiber in Sydney/Melbourne, why the majority of residences in those two cities still don't get access to the NBN first promised back in 2007 after billions of AUD of their tax money already spent on NBN? Corruption is just corruption, calling it red tape is not helping. the rules are simple there - if you are not qualified for the job, it is fine, you get replaced/demoted, if you use red tape/endless paper work as excuses to misuse tax money (e.g. NBN), that is corruption and Central Commission for Discipline Inspection looks after you and your mates. btw, by Chinese standards, the NBN corruption case is enough for many life imprisonment sentences. This week's news on Australian deputy PM living with his mistress (not his partner in his own words) in his friend's apartment rent free is just another good dose of corruption without consequence drama.
nopinsight 9y ago
I grew up in Asia (though not China). A key difference in experience for most children who grow up there is that being academically excellent is usually admired, sometimes even revered, by peers. Recognition for academic merits is widespread among teachers, schools, parents, their acquaintances, and basically everyone in society. The above atmosphere is especially intense in China where the seriousness of Gaokao (高考) derives from the long history of imperial examinations (科舉) since over a thousand years ago. Just as in the old days, academic merits can greatly impact one's socioeconomic position for life. [1] The system originates from Confucianism, which is an ideology with deep influences across East Asia (China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan) and Singapore: "Another new idea, that of meritocracy, led to the introduction of the imperial examination system in China. This system allowed anyone who passed an examination to become a government officer, a position which would bring wealth and honour to the whole family." [2] From what I gather, this is not the case for American society. It is even embedded in language with pejorative terms like 'nerd', 'geek', and 'dork'. Yes, there are honor rolls but it doesn't seem like the kids honored are granted much social status by peers (Correct me if I'm wrong. I did not grow up in the US.). The top social groups belong to athletes, cheerleaders, and cool kids who devote their time to non-academic activites. It is not surprising to see that these social factors, which have great influence on tweens and teens, may lead to weaker academic results for most students who do not have a chance to study and socialize in schools with more academic environment. (It appears to me that Europe is somewhere inbetween the US and East Asia regarding this matter. If anyone from the US or Europe could comment, that would be quite informative.) As a concrete effect, average American math level in high school is about 2-3 years behind their peers in developed Asia and also behind most of Europe. [3] This inevitably results in fewer students qualified to take 'hard' STEM majors in college and grad school. The US has been leading the world in science largely by the works of a minority of outstanding locals and a substantial immigration of global talent. As China develops further and becomes able to train more students at home to their fullest potentials, as well as attracting back Chinese scientists who work abroad, it is not surprising their academic advantage may turn into a practical edge in scientific and technological development. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism#Meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism#Meritocracy [3] http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-math-science-reading-skills-2016-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-mat...
aaavl2821 9y ago
I'd imagine one reason for this is that in the US, there is really no good career path any more for smart scientists. Becoming a tenured professor is orders of magnitude harder than it used to be. Tenure track positions at even universities that arent particularly known as leaders in science and research regularly get thousands of applications If I were a smart Chinese scientist with degrees from top western universities, and I had the option to return to my home country, start a lab, and perhaps be part of a modern day scientific revolution, rather than spend 3 more years in a postdoc position in the us, id do it in a heartbeat

106 points by dsr12 9y ago

Not sure that's a title I would use... Hopefully this great leap forward doesn't kill 30-50 million people through misguided policies like the last one.

thriftwy 9y ago
I like that downwotes on this co. Shows people fighting for the right to forget events where their side screwed up. If you fight for not getting reminded, how would we make sure you still remember, eh?
- rawTruthHurts 9y ago
  I'd rather blame ignorance of both history and English language.
wmeredith 9y ago
I was also shocked at this usage. Why employ such charged language in this way? It’s like if there was a holocaust on poverty or something announced by Germany. This is utterly bizarre.
- hyperbovine 9y ago
  Hypothesis: the person who wrote this headline is some naive millennial who has no idea about the import of this phrase.
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- shard972 9y ago
  Because it was only chinese that died and we westerners don't empathize with chinese as much? I know that's a bit offensive, but as you said you would see a headline about the holocaust on poverty, or the genocide of african rape or the shoa of fake shekels? But what about the holodomor on corruption? Does that sound like it could get past a non-ukrainian editor?
Dude2021 9y ago
That's a liberal-communist paper, what do you expect?
- valgor 9y ago
  Speaking of not understanding words, you just called the Guardian communist... Please start here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
- AsyncAwait 9y ago
  I wouldn't describe it as such by a long shot, they constantly attacked Corbyn, praise MbS etc. It's your typical neoliberal piece, moving further to the right with each passing election cycle.
  - shard972 9y ago
    The guardian to the right? I mean, can they even admit that current immigration policies in the UK are problematic? Last time I tried reading a piece they couldn't seem to get over that hurdle, and that's turning out to be a pretty centrist view point in europe currently.
    - AsyncAwait 9y ago
      That's what neoliberal basically means. Liberal on social policies, (i.e. they don't want to seem as bigoted towards any group of people), however on the economic & foreign policy front, they're quite to the right by liberal standards, (i.e. pro interventionist policy).
      - shard972 9y ago
        Really? Again I see immigration as mostly economic and foreign policy so being left on that isn't a good start. Throw in the wage gap (an econ issue they are far left on) or their pro-eu stance (very left econ wise). Are you saying they are neoliberal because they are out and out socialists or something? What kind of right wing economic policies do they support aside from free trade which is not really strictly right/left anymore.
paradite 9y ago
Yes. To most native Chinese mainland people, the implied meaning of the title would be contradictory to the content of the article. If it was meant as a Chinese equivalence for "leapfrog", the author is certainly missing some research, presuming good intentions.
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radmuzom 9y ago

As an Indian, I am always pleased to see the advances China is making in all facets of life. It shows that another model of development is possible - and one need not blindly follow the American individualist/"free markets" model. In fact, one of the reason why we see an immediate influx of anti-China comments in any such article is driven by fear (possibly at a subconscious level) that the Chinese model actually works.

narrator 9y ago
There is also the Chinese model of finance. The Economist has been predicting a Japanese style financial crash in China due to enormous debt levels since at least the early 90s and it never happened. That's because money is electronically printed by the government and given to banks in exchange for bad loans on a regular basis. There is no debt default crisis. The banks just keep lending and no government debt is created like it would be in America if the government wanted to do the same thing. That this whole system has worked so well for 30 years completely undermines the entire basis of western macroeconomics and is the equivalent of telling a traditionally trained economist that the earth orbits the sun while they believed the opposite. It just does not compute and they can't even wrap their heads around it. Thus they keep predicting an imminent economic collapse every years even though they've been wrong for more than 25 years.
- rushabh 9y ago
  This model works because China run a huge trade surplus, and its excess production is consumed by other countries. It would be interesting to see if this model can continue when the global trade balances out. In a way China is subsidizing goods for the most of the world. The outcome is the kind of political problems this is causing in most countries.
- cjalmeida 9y ago
  It's not because it didn't happen yet that economists (or economic theory) are wrong. Chinese economy is growing so fast that they can essentially bail out banks (silently) whenever they want and have little impact on the budget. It should be interesting to see how it develops when the economic eventually slows down and China is no longer the cheap manufacturing park of the world. 25y is nothing. Japan went like that for 40y, from the end of WW2 to laye 80s. Until it stopped and never recovered since. Fortunately they stopped at a high income level. A more interesting history is that of Argentina. It was an export powerhouse that went from being a poor Spanish colony in early 1800s to having a per capita income as high as Germany or France in 1920s. After the crash all went downhill and income levels are back to mid levels.

quotemstr 9y ago

It's amazing how much progress a society can make when it isn't tearing itself apart through endless political internecine warfare over imaginary grievances. Group cohesion, trust, and commonality of purpose can make up for almost any material disadvantage.

majos 9y ago
...except the point of this article seems to be that China's current scientific strength is largely a consequence of the state spending more money on science, i.e. material advantage.
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- shard972 9y ago
  I believe he was referencing material capital as opposed to liquid capital (ie money). It would be fair to say the US not too long ago had a big headstart on existing technology/machines. In any case, I think China's cohesion can easily be seen just by looking at the differences in papers being published in china vs the west. For instance, you won't find many if any papers in china on the effects of diversity within society and the workplace. Unlike here, they don't seem to be urgently researching in this area.
  - yorwba 9y ago
    I have no way to check the relative number of papers about diversity published in China, but they do at least collect statistics. E.g. here is data compiled by the Ministry of Education, which is tabulated for categories such as gender, minority status or age: http://en.moe.gov.cn/Resources/Statistics/edu_stat_2016/2016_en01/index.html http://en.moe.gov.cn/Resources/Statistics/edu_stat_2016/2016...
    - shard972 9y ago
      Odd, I just get an infinite redirect when trying to load the page.

sexydefinesher 9y ago

People will tear their hair 100 years from now when we just watched and marvelled as this inhumane regime climbed to dominating the world.

quotemstr 9y ago
Maybe so, but they'll be able to look back and feel pride in how, for one brief shining moment, their ancestors got someone fired for something he said on Twitter. The current climate matters. It doesn't exist as a separate sphere distinct from technological innovation. It saps energy, destroys trust, and squanders human capital. And for what? I don't think it's possible to enforce a strict ideological orthodoxy in one area while leaving the mind free to be creative in others. If people regularly get burned following their ideas, they'll learn a generalized intellectual timidity. China doesn't have this particular social climate. It has many others, yes, including various human rights issues, but its problems don't seem as inimical to technical creativity as ours do.
- nine_k 9y ago
  I thought that it's much easier to get in serious trouble for speaking politically unacceptable things in China? I suppose everybody just knows it and stays shut, while in the US the notion of free speech periodically leads people to an unpleasant discovery that going against the grain of the established narrative is very much unwelcome.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    You are right about China. Limits on free speech are codified in their laws[1], and are designed to protect and maintain their government. The US is changing in a completely different way, forming a kind of McCarthyism[2] where those with bad opinions are forced out of jobs and communities. While expression is technically not illegal, Americans can have their careers destroyed for holding unfavorable opinions on contentious political issues. Given that healthcare, housing, and food depend on your career in the US, the repercussions of going against the grain can be nearly as bad as in China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#People's_Republic_of_China_(mainland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#P... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

maximexx 9y ago

That would be great news if their government was more humane and noble. But hey, at least it sounds less terrifying than: "North Korea's great leap forward in science".

smithmayowa 9y ago

As an African I do feel excited for what's to come, and do feel our strategic and growing alliance with China is going to be extremely beneficial, who knows some African countries will end up in similar positions countries like South Korea and Israel ended up with USA to China. But then again even if the above does not happen the mere fact that there Is a stable alternative to western ideology is immensely beneficial to the human race being epsilon greedy and what not.

aaron-lebo 9y ago
Genuinely hope you guys find an alternative that works, but authoritarianism is not much of an alternative. There's part of me that worries that China is going to end up exploiting those countries. http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2014/05/china-africa-investment-exploitation-201454154158396626.html http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/insidestory/2014/05/chin...
- mantas 9y ago
  It's not even alternative. It's pretty much colonialism 2.0. Just like Euro empires did in 19th century. The only difference is they give more autonomy to local clans. Although sometimes Europeans did give some autonomy too. So maybe not THAT much of a difference..
musage 9y ago
> who knows some African countries will end up in similar positions countries like South Korea and Israel ended up with USA Yes, but are you aware of the full extent of the meaning of that? Maybe your country also can have someone like Yeshayahu Leibowitz, very saddened and disgusted, and very correct -- and/or take part in something like the Vietnam war. Yay! And maybe then you can live in an endless flurry of propaganda, uprooting you from reality and placing you in a revisionist history. > the mere fact that there Is a stable alternative to western ideology is immensely beneficial to the human race being epsilon greedy Can you elaborate on this? What is Western ideology in your view, and what stable alternative does China propose? And is stability in Africa not much more desirable? How many countries sell their natural wealth to the highest bidder while their populations go poor or even starving? Being exploited by a different party in a "better" way isn't really that great, and it's not uncommon for new competitors in a market to be super extra nice until they beat the competition. Generally, Nneka's song "Africans" comes to mind, it's a good song.

majos 9y ago

My perception before and after reading this article is that the Chinese scientific establishment's strength has been making advances that rely on resource investment (e.g. China's dominance of various "biggest supercomputer"-type records), but that the restrictive political climate hinders their ability to attract good scientists.

chibg10 9y ago
I don't think it's the political climate. China isn't a particularly immigrant-friendly country, so the scientists they're going to attract are mostly going to be Chinese expats in the West... most of which aren't nearly as troubled by the CCP as typical Westerners are. In my experience, the bigger issues keeping Chinese expats away are QoL issues--air pollution, standard of living, etc.
- idrios 9y ago
  As an American expat living in China and currently applying to grad schools for neuroscience research, I'll give my own personal anecdote. I considered applying to grad schools here, especially since some Chinese schools are quite highly ranked. Whenever I walk past Starbacks (not a typo) on my way to work, I'm reminded that there's very little respect for IP outside of China. I worry that if I ever came across promising research, someone else would take credit for it and I would be left with nothing. I'm friends with an American here who started a pretty successful restaurant selling Mexican food. He says that if a wealthy, prominent Chinese person liked his business, that person could start the exact same business across the street and then sue my friend for copying the business, and the Chinese person would win the lawsuit because my friend is a foreigner. In regards to the other things you said, air pollution is a thing but it wouldn't stop me from pursuing my career goals, and I expect it to get better. I think the standard of living here is pretty good (though that's mostly because most companies will pay foreigners a lot more than they'll pay locals, so your buying power is pretty high).
  - nopinsight 9y ago
    Genuine question, since I've never lived in China, any qualified foreigners or only qualified Westerners?

foodislove 9y ago

I wonder if the title is intentional. The "great leap forward" was a failed economic and social policy where the communists decided to fast forward development by skipping directly to industrialization. It didn't quite work and tens of millions of people died of famine as a result. What the article actually says, is that China is investing a lot in basic science. What is true is that while the quality of research per researcher in China is not that high, the sheer investment and focus coupled with quantity has led to a lot of scientific progress. My father is part of that thousand research program to lure specialists back to China. Having seen how he works in China compared to Australia, what the real advantage China has for researchers is that they give virtual free reign and all the resources needed (read: $$$, labs and all the grad students you want) to conduct research. For those who've never worked in academia, even though there is more academic freedom outside of China, there are whole loads of red tape (mostly well-intentioned) that slow things down. For example, at Princeton, any social science experiment involving people requires a panel to approve the ethics. A similar experiment in a Chinese university does not have the same requirements. Even if they did on paper, it would not be as rigorous. The same goes for expenditures. I remember my father complaining years ago about how for an Australian research project, spending research money on a special type of computer required additional approval even though the money for research was already granted. That's not the case in China. The net effect is that shockingly enough, the Chinese have managed to create almost a startup-like sandbox environment for researchers. In fields, particularly biotech, where there are ethical, and other red-tape considerations, the Chinese have an edge in producing results faster. Of course, this just means to get one cloned monkey, hundreds of independent teams mostly likely inhumanely murdered many multiples of monkeys to get to this result. What is important is to realize that for the Chinese, this sort of Stanlinist "only the results matter" approach is perfectly acceptable, if not encouraged. Most people would balk at the ethical and human cost, I know I do, but there is no doubt that it provides an advantage to Chinese scientists over those in the developed world. Multiply in the sheer number of Chinese scientists and you have results. Progress at any cost.

dis-sys 9y ago
your father worked for some pretty different projects I guess. I have close friends working in those so called 985 universities and they all had issues when they tried to buy those mentioned special computers when they are needed. there is no special approval procedures for them, they can not buy it without going through the annual purchase procedure managed directly by the department of education. they all gave up and end up renting those required computers from different vendors - apparently it is actually more expensive in long term but much easier in terms of paperwork. it also worth noticing that Australia is not the best example to use here. e.g. the NBN project would be considered as a typical corruption case under the Chinese laws, in fact one can argue that it is the textbook definition of corruption in Chinese standard. Think about it - there is no ethics showstopper when laying fiber in Sydney/Melbourne, why the majority of residences in those two cities still don't get access to the NBN first promised back in 2007 after billions of AUD of their tax money already spent on NBN? Corruption is just corruption, calling it red tape is not helping. the rules are simple there - if you are not qualified for the job, it is fine, you get replaced/demoted, if you use red tape/endless paper work as excuses to misuse tax money (e.g. NBN), that is corruption and Central Commission for Discipline Inspection looks after you and your mates. btw, by Chinese standards, the NBN corruption case is enough for many life imprisonment sentences. This week's news on Australian deputy PM living with his mistress (not his partner in his own words) in his friend's apartment rent free is just another good dose of corruption without consequence drama.

nopinsight 9y ago

I grew up in Asia (though not China). A key difference in experience for most children who grow up there is that being academically excellent is usually admired, sometimes even revered, by peers. Recognition for academic merits is widespread among teachers, schools, parents, their acquaintances, and basically everyone in society. The above atmosphere is especially intense in China where the seriousness of Gaokao (高考) derives from the long history of imperial examinations (科舉) since over a thousand years ago. Just as in the old days, academic merits can greatly impact one's socioeconomic position for life. [1] The system originates from Confucianism, which is an ideology with deep influences across East Asia (China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan) and Singapore: "Another new idea, that of meritocracy, led to the introduction of the imperial examination system in China. This system allowed anyone who passed an examination to become a government officer, a position which would bring wealth and honour to the whole family." [2] From what I gather, this is not the case for American society. It is even embedded in language with pejorative terms like 'nerd', 'geek', and 'dork'. Yes, there are honor rolls but it doesn't seem like the kids honored are granted much social status by peers (Correct me if I'm wrong. I did not grow up in the US.). The top social groups belong to athletes, cheerleaders, and cool kids who devote their time to non-academic activites. It is not surprising to see that these social factors, which have great influence on tweens and teens, may lead to weaker academic results for most students who do not have a chance to study and socialize in schools with more academic environment. (It appears to me that Europe is somewhere inbetween the US and East Asia regarding this matter. If anyone from the US or Europe could comment, that would be quite informative.) As a concrete effect, average American math level in high school is about 2-3 years behind their peers in developed Asia and also behind most of Europe. [3] This inevitably results in fewer students qualified to take 'hard' STEM majors in college and grad school. The US has been leading the world in science largely by the works of a minority of outstanding locals and a substantial immigration of global talent. As China develops further and becomes able to train more students at home to their fullest potentials, as well as attracting back Chinese scientists who work abroad, it is not surprising their academic advantage may turn into a practical edge in scientific and technological development. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_examination [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism#Meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism#Meritocracy [3] http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-math-science-reading-skills-2016-12 http://www.businessinsider.com/pisa-worldwide-ranking-of-mat...

aaavl2821 9y ago

I'd imagine one reason for this is that in the US, there is really no good career path any more for smart scientists. Becoming a tenured professor is orders of magnitude harder than it used to be. Tenure track positions at even universities that arent particularly known as leaders in science and research regularly get thousands of applications If I were a smart Chinese scientist with degrees from top western universities, and I had the option to return to my home country, start a lab, and perhaps be part of a modern day scientific revolution, rather than spend 3 more years in a postdoc position in the us, id do it in a heartbeat