13 ms·
How NYC’s subway got wireless in the tunnels
- dvdhsu 9y agoI have always wondered why the subways in London, NYC, and Paris have no cell signal in the tunnels. Subways in many large Asian cities (Hong Kong, Shanghai, Seoul, Tokyo) have signal in most tunnels. From the article, it sounds like it's because London, NYC, and Paris had subways very early - and so didn't anticipate having to install telecom equipment in the tunnels: > In addition to the smart city initiatives, Transit Wireless obviously is eyeing the tunnels as one of the most important infrastructure challenges going forward. Given the age of the tunnel construction, they are much narrower than the engineering standards used today for modern transit systems. In some cases, installed equipment has to fit within just a handful of inches of space lest a moving train rip the equipment right off the wall. It reminds me of the Galápagos Syndrome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gal%C3%A1pagos_syndrome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gal%C3%A1pagos_syndrome), where Japan pioneers some technologies, but they're often incompatible with the rest of the world because Japan itself is isolated (ATMs, mobile phones, etc.). Edit: wrong about Paris! Thanks for correcting me :)
- epc 9y agoIn the 1990s you could carry on a conversation on the "analog" cell phones (AMPS vs CDMA/TDMA) in the cut & cover lines in NYC (lines which are 12-20 feet below street surface). The signal would fade but wouldn't drop. The cutover to digital signals circa 2001-2002 meant calls would drop as soon as the signal faded.
- dazc 9y ago'The cutover to digital signals circa 2001-2002 meant calls would drop as soon as the signal faded.' We get that even overground in the UK.
- acjohnson55 9y agoI pretty regularly get transient LTE service in Lower Manhattan's tunnels. Although, certainly not consistently enough to make calls.
- epc 9y agoYeah…I don't know if it's the depth or type of construction but I can get enough signal to check mail and occasionally twitter on the R and 1/2/3/4/5 but not the A/C/E.
- Scoundreller 9y agoParis has had it for a long time, but because it was implemented so long ago, it's often limited to 2g.
- Havoc 9y agoParis is now actually pretty good - I was impressed. Fairly stable 4G London still sucked hard the last time I checked - basically a bit of spotty wifi near the stations.
- yann63 9y agoYes, Paris mobile network in subway is now pretty good. My second job was to install BTS for FTM (now Orange) in Paris including the subway in... 2000 ;-) And we had to do it cooperatively with competitive carriers because of the lack of space in the tubes.
- w-m 9y agoMy experience (with the carrier “Free”) is quite different. If there’s data at all, it’s mostly Edge and will cut out when the train gets to the next station. In some deeper lines I won’t even get a phone signal.
- yakovsi 9y agoI don't understand infatuation with NYC subway. Moscow subway, while being very old, very deep and in supposed third world country had count down clocks for 25 years, all major carriers LTE for years, very fast wifi on stations and in tunnels for forever, doesn't even require stupid login, just connects, imagine that. The only feeling I have for NYC subway is shame. That pride that some people have is apparently because they never visit anywhere. Oh, and trains are very fast, and come every 3 minutes
- usaphp 9y agoAnd it’s much cleaner
- WaxProlix 9y agoI lived in Moscow for a while as a kid and the Metro system was such a joy in retrospect that it's really soured me on some other cities' transit systems. Living in Seattle right now while we struggle to achieve a single-route light rail system is especially saddening. Crazy that Moscow's system is almost 100 years old, dating from 1935. (I just checked and London's Underground has it beat by a margin though - 1863)
- seanmcdirmid 9y agoDepending on how you count it, nyc metro started in 1863 also (as an above road rail).
- DoreenMichele 9y agoHN is a US-cetric forum. Americans are bad about being oblivious to the existence of anything outside the US. New York is, by far, the largest US city and one of the oldest. It is hugely influential here and has essentially legendary status in the minds of many Americans. To most Americans, New York is kind of The big city and symbolizes anything and everything urban. I am not sure if we even have subways elsewhere (which just may be my own ignorance showing). If we do, they wouldn't be as extensive.
- 9y ago
- Spooky23 9y agoIt is weird. Even moderately busy underground public spaces can get LTE modems for cheap. My guess is that one or more of the carriers refuse to use multi-antenna solutions or are holding out for exclusivity.
- jdietrich 9y agoTransport for London are currently trialling in-tunnel 4G service on the Waterloo & City line, with a full rollout across the whole London Underground network planned for 2019. https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2017/november/4g-mobile-coverage-on-tube-on-track-to-begin-from-2019 https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2017/novemb... The tunnel gauge isn't a major problem. The standard technology for providing wireless coverage inside tunnels is a leaky feeder or radiating cable - a length of coax cable with a perforated shield. The leaky feeder acts like an antenna with a very elongated radiation pattern. As long as the distance between stations isn't too great, then you don't actually need to put any equipment inside the tunnel other than a length of cable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_feeder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_feeder
- jamesblonde 9y agoIs this a story, seriously? I've been using 4G in the tunnels in Stockholm since 2012, 3G before that.
- tyingq 9y agoYup. Works for you, but happens not to just work, without deliberate effort, in NYC.
- adrianparsons 9y agoInteresting, I wonder why. Stockholm's subway was built in 1950[0], which is a bit newer than NYC's. That may or may not explain why. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_metro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_metro
- moogly 9y agoThe Stockholm Metro got 3G in 2005, by installing a radiating cable that acts as an antenna[1]. Should work everywhere, really. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_feeder https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaky_feeder
- adrianparsons 9y agoNice. from that Wiki article: An alternative to using leaky feeder in underground railways is to use Distributed Antenna System (DAS). A DAS system was deployed in some New York City Subway stations by Transit Wireless to provide WiFi and mobile phone and data coverage for customers. I wonder what the pros and cons are for each solution.
- jasonlaramburu 9y agoIsn’t this title a bit misleading? It sounds like there is only service in one ‘tunnel’ on the Grand Central Shuttle. Everywhere else it’s just on the station platform.
- epc 9y agoThe original title is "Engineering against all odds, or how NYC’s subway will get wireless in the tunnels". There's wifi + LTE coverage in stations today. I don't know if it's part of this program or something else but there's LTE coverage from Verizon on the E from midtown down to about Penn Station.
- Ologn 9y agoNew York Transit Wireless has a free, open wifi that is open in many stations, which I use frequently. It is a little bit of a throwback using it on the subway though, as it does not work in the tunnel, so you have to wait to stop at a station, get the wifi signal back, send out your web page request and receive it, then the train goes into the tunnel again and your connection goes dead again. It is better than nothing though.
- anarchy8 9y agoBoston has had wireless signal in the subways for over a decade now.
- lttlrck 9y agoAnd somehow GPS is surprisingly stable along the I93 when it goes thorough The Big Dig. Thankfully - it’s a warren. It might be dead reckoning working remarkably well I suppose.
- macNchz 9y agoThe built in navigation system in my car seems to work in tunnels, presumably because it has data from the car itself to use for dead reckoning, but I haven’t found that to be the case with navigation apps or standalone GPS units.
- Piskvorrr 9y agoIt would require reading data out of the OBD2 - greatly useful, but a Bluetooth dongle needs to be installed in the engine, first. Hence, quite rare: https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/issues/3204 https://github.com/osmandapp/Osmand/issues/3204
- blfr 9y agoHere in Warsaw you get cell reception and even LTE on both lines. From what I understand, the transit authority installed antennas along the tunnels and then the big four wireless operators maintain their BTS at each station directly, without any specialized underground operator. It used to only work reliably on and near the platforms but nowadays you can watch full HD YouTube videos all along the line with minimal issues.
- mixmastamyk 9y agoWifi perhaps, have no desire to hear business types yelling into phones while on the metro.
- bradleyjg 9y agoIt's pretty loud down there. Cell phones work on the elevated portion of the 7 and you don't hear too many people talking on the phone. The LIRR, on the other hand, has an epidemic of loud cell phone talkers.
- Havoc 9y agoMuch more likely to find a gansta kid that doesn't feel the need to use headphones to listen to youtube tracks.
- acjohnson55 9y agoWould such a kid be "gangsta", or merely inconsiderate?
- mhh__ 9y agoThe amount of tutting that would induce on the tube would be a sight to see.
- dazc 9y agoIt's kind of ironic that the tube is one of the last places on Earth where you get can respite from a lot of the most annoying human activity?
- blackbagboys 9y agoJust fyi, "gangsta" is such a dated, anachronistic slang term that it's use is now almost exclusively associated with resentful white Fox News types ineptly attempting to dog-whistle "black teens who don't give me the deference I think I deserve" (and occasionally "black athletes or entertainers I disapprove of for nebulously defined reasons"). I'd recommend the next time you need such a euphemistic term you go with the more timeless "urban youth".
- Froyoh 9y agoWe need some in Toronto, badly
- Polyphonie 9y agoYou already can on the TTC subway- both on station platform and some in tunnel service. Although it only works if you're on Freedom Mobile: https://www.freedommobile.ca/network-and-coverage/subway-coverage https://www.freedommobile.ca/network-and-coverage/subway-cov...
- mbell 9y agoA slightly more technical article based on Boston's system: http://www.masstransitmag.com/article/12242267/mobile-communications-lessons-from-the-boston-subway-system http://www.masstransitmag.com/article/12242267/mobile-commun...
- kchoudhu 9y agoNow if only they could get actual trains in their tunnels...
- bob_theslob646 9y ago>The authority rewarded the contract to Transit Wireless, which now holds a 27-year license to operate cellular service in the subway system. 27 years ?!?! How is this not monopolistic?
- jessriedel 9y agoPresumably it is intended to be monopolistic, just like a patent (which lasts 20 years).
- donarb 9y agoWhat company would invest $300M and not expect some period of exclusivity?
- kristofferR 9y agoFor cell coverage in the Oslo subways the carriers simply cooperated and payed their share of the cost (based on market share). That seems like a much simpler solution than creating a new monopolistic and rent-seeking company.
- gaadd33 9y agoIn 5 years when the market share has changed are the carriers okay with subsidizing someone else's access while they haven't recouped their sunk costs? If I start a new cell company in Oslo do I automatically get access for free since I have 0 market share? For NYC, in theory it would have been better if the infrastructure was provided by the MTA and access to it was rented out to each carrier based on usage.
- chrisseaton 9y agoIs it a monopoly when you hire just one person to cut your lawn? Why is this any different?
- bob_theslob646 9y agoThe difference is you had a choice on hiring who you wanted to cut your lawn...
- nextstep 9y agoAmerica is a third world country
- 7ewis 9y agoI often try checking my overground train times while on the London Underground. There's free Wi-Fi on the tube, but only in stations. So you have around 30 seconds to connect and check before getting disconnected.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- prettynatty 9y agoWorth mentioning, that for a long time Moscow subway already has free wi-fi (with paid plans too). Moreover, in Moscow you can see Moscow_WiFi_Free in almost every place of city center. Even every bus has a wi-fi hotspot.
- somecontext 9y agoHowever, you need to receive a text message to use the free Wi-Fi, rendering the service less useful for tourists. So it's for some valley where you have a cell plan including SMS, but not decent data.
- vinay427 9y agoI believe (but someone should confirm) that incoming calls and SMS are free in Russia, as in most countries.
- perseusprime11 9y agoCan NJ & NY Transit do something similar?
- the_mitsuhiko 9y agoVienna has LTE in all tunnels and stations for all carriers. How? The train just runs next to hundreds of kilometers of antenna cables and picks up the signal that way. Perfect reception throughout and much more stable than the old antennas they had between stations.
- bastawhiz 9y agoMaybe I missed it in the article, but where exactly do they make money? If they're paying MTA, do they get their revenue from the cell providers? I.e., does Verizon, AT&T, etc. pay them to provide access to their customers?
- mi100hael 9y agoYeah I assume since it's not at all taxpayer funded, it looks something like: 1. They build a network on their own dime in the tunnels 2. They pay MTA "rent" for the privilege 3. They have an exclusive contract so other carriers pay them to use their infrastructure. AT&T, Verizon, etc. essentially operate as MVNOs in the tunnels.
- justinph 9y agoDisappointed with the content of the article; it does not cite an examples of the engineering that was involved, just the challenges and the end result. Missing the whole point, IMHO.
- joecool1029 9y agoSame feeling for me. I clicked it thinking 'oh damn, I wonder if they'll use leaky coax[1] like the Hudson River car tunnels did' but was sorely disappointed. [1] https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/21/7260271/how-at-t-brought-cellular-service-to-the-lincoln-tunnel https://www.theverge.com/2014/11/21/7260271/how-at-t-brought...
- Terretta 9y ago“Got” and “will get” are not the same title. The NYC subway has not “got wireless in the tunnels”. FTA: > Transit Wireless obviously is eyeing the tunnels as one of the most important infrastructure challenges going forward... Currently, the company is offering a pilot demonstration of tunnel service on the shuttle between Times Square and Grand Central Station, which launched in December.
- isuckatcoding 9y agoOn a related note, I would love if I didn’t lose Cellular data connection when going in tunnels in the BART. I know, what a first world problem.
- madengr 9y agoThe article is worthless. Nothing to do with “how” it got wireless. I was expecting a technical article.
- kevindong 9y agoIn Chicago, every underground station AND the tunnels connecting them have had LTE service since December 2015. Amazingly, it works annoyingly well (quite a few people will do video Facetime chats, without headphones, for tens of minutes while we're going through the underground portions of the network). http://www.transitchicago.com/4g/default.aspx http://www.transitchicago.com/4g/default.aspx
- dzhiurgis 9y ago> without headphones How is that different from having a chat with a friend next to you?
- kevindong 9y agoI don't know how/why but those conversations are a lot quieter than the video chats.
- yjftsjthsd-h 9y agoBetter audio quality plus non-visual cues?
- rangibaby 9y agoPeople yell when they talk to their phone.
- grkvlt 9y agoOnly when using the handset, and on connections without sidetone. With speakerphone style conversations there would be no perceived need to yell.
- lovemenot 9y agoIn Tokyo, a sustained conversation even at barely audible levels would be discouraged by social comparison - others don't so I shouldn't. As a result I can follow a typical conversation between seemingly oblivious native English speakers from half-way down a carriage.