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I think there are two interesting correlaries: 1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard

I think there are two interesting correlaries: 1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard science researchers, or even things like some social work -- that's really hard in entirely different ways). Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get them, banking, consulting and law jobs actually have a lot of mindless or not super challenging work

TheCoelacanth 9y ago
Programming is one of the few "hard" jobs that is demanded in very large quantities. There are roughly 1.6 million people working as programmers in the US[1]. That is approximately as many as all engineering professions combined (the largest individual engineering profession is mechanical with 285k). It is roughly 50% more than all life, physical and social sciences combined. [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#17-0000 https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#17-0000
fuggedaboudit 9y ago
I guess the grass is always greener. I'm a lawyer who lurks here occasionally. Most legal jobs involve 60+ hours of work, being on call 24/7, and there is pretty much no legal equivalent of a 10Xer because almost all work is billed by the hour. There is no way to make a contract that's 10x as valuable as your competitor's, and certainly no legal equivalent of scaling to the degree of Google or Facebook. Law is incredibly challenging work - I know more than one lawyer who complains that they should have went into programming to work 9-5 at Google between free massages and endless burritos or whatever other perks you guys have. It's certainly not work you can casually do while watching youtube - especially considered there's such a thing as legal malpractice a.k.a. get something less than perfect and you could personally be on the hook for your license. Also, it seems like career longevity in software engineering is a lot higher than in law - most lawyers for the top firms (the Google/Facebook equivalents in pay) wash out by the 4th year and practically all do by the 8th. I always wondered if I made a mistake picking law over software engineering. I don't have any strong passions and I was good at reading/writing so I went into law, but have been kicking myself for missing out on stock options and equivalent pay for a laid back lifestyle. Glad to see there are programmers who think lawyers have it easy.
- solipsism 9y ago
  Are you at a top tier law firm? Because you're comparing yourself to programmers at a top tier employer of programmers. The life of the average programmer certainly does not involve endless burritos or massages, and the compensation is probably below yours.
  - fuggedaboudit 9y ago
    Yep - top tier firms pay roughly the same as tech companies do as far as I can tell (with the added bonus that you don't need 250k in grad school loans to work for Google at an entry level - and a much higher ceiling for the truly, amazingly talent). Another key difference is that in most top tier law firms, literally 2-3% of every starting class can expect to have a full career there. I've heard tech has a similar concept called stack ranking, but it seems much milder in terms of the forced attrition. Not to mention you don't need a full career at Google - you can always take that resume line and go to another big tech company, a startup or something midmarket. Law is much more segmented. The M&A lawyer laid off during a recession isn't going to find a job at a small firm because those generally do not do M&A. I don't really hear of top tier software engineers struggling to find work - happens to out of work top tier lawyers all the time. Oh, and for the record 15% of law school grads get that sweet 180k starting salary (a trajectory most won't stay on). There are many, many lawyers making 40-60k a year working horrendous hours with no real hope of advancement. Let me be clear: I have zero doubt in my mind, even with my very limited knowledge of the software engineering market, that I have no doubt the median software engineer is far better off than the median lawyer, likely in terms of pay, hours, and prospects all at the same time. My question related solely to the top tier because that's where it's even remotely competitive.
- unoti 9y ago
  Software keeps working after the work is done. That’s the key differentiator, not the brain power. This leads to economies of scale on two fronts. 1) scale for the low end. As an engineer, I’ve made a game where I have customers worldwide that pay me something like 25 cents a week. A lawyer can’t really do work that scales out at the low end like that. It’s not a brain power thing, it’s just the nature of the work product. 2) at the high end, a big company like Google or a financial institution can keep hiring programmers at say $100k, and have them produce tiny detailed enhancements that produce say 150k or or more of revenue per year over a multi year period. Most large systems can always sustain a little more enhancement that will produce an optimization of revenue. I think this is the key difference between programming and other kinds of work. Programming is scalable at both the low end (distributable to very cheap consumers) and the high end (can always get more revenue through optimization). And at both ends of this spectrum the machine keeps earning money even when the programmer is sleeping or working on a new project.
vostok 9y ago
I think I have to disagree with both statements. banking - extremely long hours with unpredictable work, huge attrition rate (most people who start in banking don't stay in banking), eventual career progression is into sales consulting - long hours, weekly travel, huge attrition rate (most people who start in consulting don't stay in consulting), eventual career progression is into sales law - long hours, high attrition rate (most people who start in big law don't stay in big law), eventual career progression is into sales At least for me software engineering is much easier than any of those.
- aaavl2821 9y ago
  I agree with your statement but when I said "hard" I meant the work itself was hard rather than the work "lifestyle", if that makes sense I woerked in banking and agree it is a hard work environment , but getting the deliverables done was easy and not intellectually challenging. From my friends in big consulting and law firms the work sounds similar in nature
  - vostok 9y ago
    That's a good point and I mentioned it because you included social work in your list of hard careers so thought hard doesn't necessarily mean doing hard math/logic/etc.
    - aaavl2821 9y ago
      I think social work is a hard work "lifestyle" but also hard in the sense the problems you are trying to solve are very hard. In banking / consulting advisory work, the problem is making the client happy, which is not easy but not as hard as rapidly scaling a software system, or "solving" the problems like ptsd or homelessness that social workers deal with. I'm sort of mixing apples and oranges but it makes sense in my head :)
jimbokun 9y ago
"Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well" Hitting major league pitching.
dagw 9y ago
Programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned Perhaps for some people. Most of what I spend my time on is little more than simple data munging, some trivial analysis and glorified crud apps.
dsacco 9y ago
> 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get them, banking, consulting and law jobs actually have a lot of mindless or not super challenging work Are you saying this as a programmer, or are you saying this as a banker/consultant/lawyer?
- georgeecollins 9y ago
  Every task is easy to the person who doesn't have to do it. I usually say this to non-technical people when they ask for a feature that sounds simple to do, in their minds. But the same fallacy is at work if you think that highly paid bankers or consultants have mindless work.
- aaavl2821 9y ago
  A former banker, have also done freelance consulting work and did an MBA do know lots of consultants. I'm relaying things I've heard from lawyers I've worked with in various roles. Am a hobbyist programmer, been doing 10-20 hrs of coding / week the last 18 months, and interned at a FAANG in business roles tho knew some engineers The stuff you do in investment banking is at least an order of magnitude simpler than making any useful software. It's basically modifying excel templates and debugging complex models, making slide decks that are 80% template slides, and working on deals that are intellectually challenging on occasion but a lot of it is blocking and tackling and managing processes
regulation_d 9y ago
Having been both an attorney and a programmer, the better jobs in both industries will be quite challenging. I personally find writing software much more rewarding than practicing law, but it's certainly not more mentally taxing.

TheCoelacanth 9y ago

Programming is one of the few "hard" jobs that is demanded in very large quantities. There are roughly 1.6 million people working as programmers in the US[1]. That is approximately as many as all engineering professions combined (the largest individual engineering profession is mechanical with 285k). It is roughly 50% more than all life, physical and social sciences combined. [1] https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#17-0000 https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#17-0000

fuggedaboudit 9y ago

I guess the grass is always greener. I'm a lawyer who lurks here occasionally. Most legal jobs involve 60+ hours of work, being on call 24/7, and there is pretty much no legal equivalent of a 10Xer because almost all work is billed by the hour. There is no way to make a contract that's 10x as valuable as your competitor's, and certainly no legal equivalent of scaling to the degree of Google or Facebook. Law is incredibly challenging work - I know more than one lawyer who complains that they should have went into programming to work 9-5 at Google between free massages and endless burritos or whatever other perks you guys have. It's certainly not work you can casually do while watching youtube - especially considered there's such a thing as legal malpractice a.k.a. get something less than perfect and you could personally be on the hook for your license. Also, it seems like career longevity in software engineering is a lot higher than in law - most lawyers for the top firms (the Google/Facebook equivalents in pay) wash out by the 4th year and practically all do by the 8th. I always wondered if I made a mistake picking law over software engineering. I don't have any strong passions and I was good at reading/writing so I went into law, but have been kicking myself for missing out on stock options and equivalent pay for a laid back lifestyle. Glad to see there are programmers who think lawyers have it easy.

solipsism 9y ago
Are you at a top tier law firm? Because you're comparing yourself to programmers at a top tier employer of programmers. The life of the average programmer certainly does not involve endless burritos or massages, and the compensation is probably below yours.
- fuggedaboudit 9y ago
  Yep - top tier firms pay roughly the same as tech companies do as far as I can tell (with the added bonus that you don't need 250k in grad school loans to work for Google at an entry level - and a much higher ceiling for the truly, amazingly talent). Another key difference is that in most top tier law firms, literally 2-3% of every starting class can expect to have a full career there. I've heard tech has a similar concept called stack ranking, but it seems much milder in terms of the forced attrition. Not to mention you don't need a full career at Google - you can always take that resume line and go to another big tech company, a startup or something midmarket. Law is much more segmented. The M&A lawyer laid off during a recession isn't going to find a job at a small firm because those generally do not do M&A. I don't really hear of top tier software engineers struggling to find work - happens to out of work top tier lawyers all the time. Oh, and for the record 15% of law school grads get that sweet 180k starting salary (a trajectory most won't stay on). There are many, many lawyers making 40-60k a year working horrendous hours with no real hope of advancement. Let me be clear: I have zero doubt in my mind, even with my very limited knowledge of the software engineering market, that I have no doubt the median software engineer is far better off than the median lawyer, likely in terms of pay, hours, and prospects all at the same time. My question related solely to the top tier because that's where it's even remotely competitive.
unoti 9y ago
Software keeps working after the work is done. That’s the key differentiator, not the brain power. This leads to economies of scale on two fronts. 1) scale for the low end. As an engineer, I’ve made a game where I have customers worldwide that pay me something like 25 cents a week. A lawyer can’t really do work that scales out at the low end like that. It’s not a brain power thing, it’s just the nature of the work product. 2) at the high end, a big company like Google or a financial institution can keep hiring programmers at say $100k, and have them produce tiny detailed enhancements that produce say 150k or or more of revenue per year over a multi year period. Most large systems can always sustain a little more enhancement that will produce an optimization of revenue. I think this is the key difference between programming and other kinds of work. Programming is scalable at both the low end (distributable to very cheap consumers) and the high end (can always get more revenue through optimization). And at both ends of this spectrum the machine keeps earning money even when the programmer is sleeping or working on a new project.

vostok 9y ago

I think I have to disagree with both statements. banking - extremely long hours with unpredictable work, huge attrition rate (most people who start in banking don't stay in banking), eventual career progression is into sales consulting - long hours, weekly travel, huge attrition rate (most people who start in consulting don't stay in consulting), eventual career progression is into sales law - long hours, high attrition rate (most people who start in big law don't stay in big law), eventual career progression is into sales At least for me software engineering is much easier than any of those.

aaavl2821 9y ago
I agree with your statement but when I said "hard" I meant the work itself was hard rather than the work "lifestyle", if that makes sense I woerked in banking and agree it is a hard work environment , but getting the deliverables done was easy and not intellectually challenging. From my friends in big consulting and law firms the work sounds similar in nature
- vostok 9y ago
  That's a good point and I mentioned it because you included social work in your list of hard careers so thought hard doesn't necessarily mean doing hard math/logic/etc.
  - aaavl2821 9y ago
    I think social work is a hard work "lifestyle" but also hard in the sense the problems you are trying to solve are very hard. In banking / consulting advisory work, the problem is making the client happy, which is not easy but not as hard as rapidly scaling a software system, or "solving" the problems like ptsd or homelessness that social workers deal with. I'm sort of mixing apples and oranges but it makes sense in my head :)

jimbokun 9y ago

"Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well" Hitting major league pitching.

dagw 9y ago

Programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned Perhaps for some people. Most of what I spend my time on is little more than simple data munging, some trivial analysis and glorified crud apps.

dsacco 9y ago

> 2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get them, banking, consulting and law jobs actually have a lot of mindless or not super challenging work Are you saying this as a programmer, or are you saying this as a banker/consultant/lawyer?

georgeecollins 9y ago
Every task is easy to the person who doesn't have to do it. I usually say this to non-technical people when they ask for a feature that sounds simple to do, in their minds. But the same fallacy is at work if you think that highly paid bankers or consultants have mindless work.
aaavl2821 9y ago
A former banker, have also done freelance consulting work and did an MBA do know lots of consultants. I'm relaying things I've heard from lawyers I've worked with in various roles. Am a hobbyist programmer, been doing 10-20 hrs of coding / week the last 18 months, and interned at a FAANG in business roles tho knew some engineers The stuff you do in investment banking is at least an order of magnitude simpler than making any useful software. It's basically modifying excel templates and debugging complex models, making slide decks that are 80% template slides, and working on deals that are intellectually challenging on occasion but a lot of it is blocking and tackling and managing processes

regulation_d 9y ago

Having been both an attorney and a programmer, the better jobs in both industries will be quite challenging. I personally find writing software much more rewarding than practicing law, but it's certainly not more mentally taxing.