14 ms·

Telegram removed from the App Store for 'inappropriate content'

222 points by wafflesraccoon 9y ago

pentae 9y ago
Ahh the app store. It's just like the internet, except the websites are mini apps, and a mega corporation gets to control whats on it. And takes 30% of everything you make. Brilliant.
- Turing_Machine 9y ago
  > And takes 30% of everything you make. Compared to a website, where you get to keep 100% of zero? Users will pay for apps (not much, as a rule, but something), but will not pay for web sites. Third-party advertisers might pay, if you're lucky, and if you don't mind treating your users as a commodity, but the users themselves will not.
  - lj3 9y ago
    > but will not pay for web sites. Subscriptions to web-based services don't count as paying for web sites?
    - artificial 9y ago
      How many people would you say subscribe to something they pay for online? For example news? The pool of subscribers for magazines and news is an ever shrinking pie. I know of no one in the last three jobs that maintains a subscription that’s under under age 40.
      - Frank2312 9y ago
        Netflix (and other similar platforms), Amazon Prime, Twitch subscriptions. Those are only 3 examples a ton of people pay for. If you provide a good service, you will get subscribers. News have been available for free for decades thanks to OTA TV broadcasts. That's why people don't pay for it. Niche journalism needs to have subscriptions since they can have way less views and people looking for news on that niche are ready to pay.
        pavel_lishin 9y ago
        They're also not exactly something a developer can launch and start making money off of. Would you pay a subscription for Flappy Bird?
        klez 9y ago
        > Would you pay a subscription for Flappy Bird? I don't do that on the app store either. And software was sold way before app stores existed, so what's your point?
        eitland 9y ago
        I happily pay for games and apps, including upgrades if they are valuable to me. I refuse to pay monthly for stuff that shouldn't need backend services.
        skinnymuch 9y ago
        Flappy Bird didn’t make money from selling the app though. The example actually hurts your argument. Flappy Bird and many sites make money the same way - ads.
        Turing_Machine 9y ago
        What makes you (and others) think that citing three (or even half a dozen) examples constitutes some kind of refutation of the general rule? There are somewhere over a billion web sites, dude. The number of those that are profitable with a subscription model (as opposed to being supported by advertising, or not being profitable at all) is a rounding error -- in the fourth or fifth decimal place.
        vonmoltke 9y ago
        The number of apps in all app stores combined that are profitable from store sales is also likely a rounding error.
        skinnymuch 9y ago
        How many apps are profitable and of those how many are made by independent people?
      - iand 9y ago
        Here are some of the online services that I subscribe to, delivered over the web: Github, AWS, pinboard.in, spotify, ancestry.com Content/news is a terrible example since there is an oversupply of poor quality content driven by providers who believe content supports their advertising revenue rather than the other way round.
      - peteey 9y ago
        News is free on the web and free as an app. You are not making a distinction. I paid nothing for my NPR and BBC apps.
        thrill 9y ago
        The BBC is fully funded by the government (i.e. the taxpayer). NPR claims they are minimally funded by the government but sure does fight hard to keep that supposed 2%. But the main point is that someone else had to pay for what you espouse as free.
        DanBC 9y ago
        About a quarter of its revenue comes from BBC Worldwide selling BBC content to markets outside the UK.
      - eitland 9y ago
        Happy blendle user. Love to be able to pay for quality content. Same with Spotify. Both models are OK with me. What I don't wanna pay for is every newspaper wanting a monthly subscribtion either I read something or not.
      - addicted 9y ago
        And all those magazines and newspapers also have apps, yet that hasn’t somehow led to floods of money pouring into their coffers.
      - untog 9y ago
        This feels like kind of an aside - do those under 40s you know readily pay for news apps, but not for web subscriptions? If not it's not really related to the issue at hand.
      - elif 9y ago
        Confidence in news is also an ever shrinking pie. Not a great example.
    - alkonaut 9y ago
      The only way people would pay for web sites in the extent they pay for apps is if it’s as convenient. I don’t want to log in to get the paid benefits for example. I don’t want to enter my cc details to pay the subscription if it could be avoided by “the store” already knowing it, and so on. In the end reality is that I just pass on buying subscriptions and would probably prefer buying subscriber access to a website if they made an app facade for the site that handled payment and login. The UX of web sites and subscriptions is that bad.
      - EADGBE 9y ago
        With Stripe's integration of Apple Pay/Google Pay are you more willing or less willing to pay to use a web site?
  - zeveb 9y ago
    > Compared to a website, where you get to keep 100% of zero? There's more to the Internet than websites. Believe it or not, there are lots of protocols out there, not just HTTP.
    - Turing_Machine 9y ago
      The parent explicitly said "websites".
- danpalmer 9y ago
  Ahh the App Store. It's just like the Play Store, except no viruses, far fewer scam apps, and there's a legitimate and thriving market for paid apps.
  - Accacin 9y ago
    But they remove any apps that might show boobs?
    - mcny 9y ago
      > But they remove any apps that might show boobs? We are not much better, sadly. https://floens.github.io/Clover/gp_unavailable.txt https://floens.github.io/Clover/gp_unavailable.txt
  - vinay427 9y ago
    The app stores you mentioned are inextricably to their respective operating systems. The problems with the Play Store are a compromise I'm willing to deal with so I can easily install apps using alternative app stores or none at all.
    - phoneboy 9y ago
      The store is their way to control their ecosystem, has nothing to do with the OS. This effort is a power-play against decentralized apps that threaten the centralized platform model.
      - vinay427 9y ago
        Yes, but my point is that the Play Store inherently allows for competition and limit's Google's control because they chose to develop it on a platform that allows for competing app stores and sideloading. Regardless of Google's choices in managing the Play Store, that stark difference between Google's approach and Apple's approach remains.
        9y ago
- artificial 9y ago
  Which internet are you on that requires 30% of all made on it? If news is any indicator the vast majority of people have no interest in paying for and even reading the content - the headline will suffice. Curation has its merits, for example not nearly as many trojaned clones. Ransomware does not exist. Ahhh users, bless them. The public daily demonstrates a lack of interest in owning and operating a well maintained and updatable/ed device.
  - nullbyte 9y ago
    He's saying that the app store takes 30% of your earnings.
- jmull 9y ago
  I'm not sure why anyone argues against Apple's 30% cut like this. It's app developers who make the determination whether the cost is worth the benefit. As you point out, there are alternatives. Why do you think developers have massively and overwhelmingly opted-in?
  - vetinari 9y ago
    Exactly, similarly, I'm not sure why anyone argues against the troll watching the bridge. It's the travelers who make the determination whether the price is worth crossing the bridge. After all, there are alternatives to bridges, why do the travelers opt to pay the fee? -- Obviously, /s
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Please explain how developers can ship native iOS apps outside of the store?
    - ceejayoz 9y ago
      I think the point was they're free not to ship iOS apps.
      - marnett 9y ago
        Yea, but this isn't necessarily an alternative.
  - cma 9y ago
    Because of network effects outside of anyone's control?
  - djsumdog 9y ago
    > are alternatives Are there? Really? No, they're not. No one who isn't in tech is going to install F-droid. Few people will uninstall untrusted sources, or even know what that is. Fewer Apple users than ever jailbreak their phones. For over 90% of the market, no, there are no alternatives (other than a mobile website). Due to the non-standard nature of ARM and SoC/binary drivers, we don't even have a real alternative OS for old Android devices that's universal like most Linux distros on the PC in the 90s (although PostmarketOS is making some huge strides in this area). 30% is an insane cut. Bandcamp sells music with a 15% cut, literally half of Amazon/Google/Apple. I always prefer it because I know the band gets more money and I get a higher quality version of the song without a patent encumbered codec (FLAC and OGG downloads are supported). But no, there are no real alternatives. AppStore/Play are bastardizations of the software repo concept from Linux. If Google Play was a real package managers, it'd keep standardize shared jar files across apps (dependencies to reduce massive app size) either by mirroring maven repos and signing dependencies or creating their own system, and they'd also allow for easily adding 3rd party app trees. Both Apple and Google are closed walled gardens, where everything you need has to be contained in your bloated package, and where their corporate overlords get final approval of what is in and out.
- pastastickers 9y ago
  And how much does it cost to build and maintain your own domain, storage, delivery/updates infrastructure and billing system? Oh, and how about marketing for your app?
  - jbigelow76 9y ago
    The app stores market your app for you? Ha!
    - pastastickers 9y ago
      Apple’s ‘App of the Day’ featuring boosts downloads by 1747%, games by 792%[1] [1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/24/apples-app-of-the-day-featuring-boosts-downloads-by-1747-games-by-792/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/24/apples-app-of-the-day-feat...
      - jbigelow76 9y ago
        Sure getting featured helps, just like if a fashion designer has a celebrity photographed in their clothes, they will probably see a temporary bump in sales. Getting featured on the App Store is one time, possibly incredibly beneficial, event, but it is not a marketing plan.
    - Veen 9y ago
      Ask developers how much difference being made a featured app makes to sales. Apple recently radically redesigned the App Store so that it could more effectively promote apps.
- tw1010 9y ago
  And the incentive/risk tradeoff is too much in favour of the former for optimistic entrepreneurs to ever think they'll be affected by something like this.
- mherdeg 9y ago
  The ebb and flow is kind of neat to watch. (1) Load AOL and visit keyword "UBER" to get started requesting a car now! (2) Type UBER into your web browser location bar then hit control-enter to visit http://UBER.com/ http://UBER.com/ and get started requesting a car now! (3) Load your app store and search for "UBER" to get started requesting a car now!
- squarefoot 9y ago
  "except the websites are mini apps, and a mega corporation gets to control whats on it" There is more to it. Using apps instead of websites we're killing the whole concept of making information and services available using a standard protocol. That's like going back over 30 years, even before gopher. Then there is the cloud->mainframe similarity, with data and services being moved somewhere into the net where the user has no control over his/her own data, and the whole email/usenet->social media migration which puts private and public communications in the hands of corporations having no intention of guaranteeing interoperability with competing systems. Basically the industry screwed 40+ years of IT development, not just in a technical way, but they did it behind shiny graphics and animated emoticons, so nobody really cares.
  - phoneboy 9y ago
    That's why we need decentralized solutions that break the hold the current centralized platforms have on us.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      The problem wasn't that we didn't have decentralized solutions since the 1960s -- it was that we've never figured out a way to make hosting your own environment as easy / cheap as using an externally managed one.
    - s0adex 9y ago
      Not every user is smart. That's why there is a necessity for centralized/trusted solution. I wouldn't sleep well if I knew my mom could install a malware by mistake on appstore. Unfortunately, life is not this simple and every path there's a toll.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - m12k 9y ago
    > Using apps instead of websites we're killing the whole concept of making information and services available using a standard protocol I think the interesting thing to note here is that for most end users a standard protocol is not nearly as appealing as a standard user interface. Like how most iOS apps follow common navigation paradigms, so users don't need to spend time learning each new one. And how people tend to prefer buying things on Amazon instead of any random webshop. And how WeChat has almost become a little web of its own with custom chat UIs for e.g. ordering pizza. If open software for consumers is ever to stop being beaten by these walled gardens, it needs to get a ton more UX people involved and focus on the end user UX, not just the technical implementation.
- gpmcadam 9y ago
  Ahh the race track. It's just like the highway, except the roads are smaller and a corporation gets to control who drives on it. And they make you pay to use it. Brilliant.
- debt 9y ago
  It's supposedly more secure than the normal internet. But ya figure for a large company of creative geniuses they could figure out how to democratize security so that the whole system isn't wholly owned and controlled by a single entity.
shard972 9y ago
Related? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16280713 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16280713
mcguire 9y ago
"Telegram has risen in popularity thanks to its focus on advanced security features and the ability to hold secret conversations with end-to-end encryption. ... Telegram was forced to create a team of moderators in Indonesia to remove “terrorist-related content” after the Indonesian government threatened to ban the messaging app." Wait, how does that work?
- maxerickson 9y ago
  The secure chats are opt in. The normal mode shares everything with the server.
  - dbrgn 9y ago
    This is probably mostly about the public channels, not regular group chats.
    - marksomnian 9y ago
      Correct. Moderators only intervene in public groups and channels, chats are exempt and secret chats are impossible to be moderated.
- pr0ph3t 9y ago
  Telegram has public channels that aren't encrypted.
  - ReverseCold 9y ago
    Note that 1 to 1 chats are also not encrypted by default. It must be manually enabled - and once enabled you can only access the chat on a single device.
kevin_b_er 9y ago
Secure communication is not possible on iOS because Apple does not permit it. This is an accurate statement. Apple demands that Telegram be able to monitor and block "inappropriate" content. Therefor, secure communication is impossible on iOS. Apple has further demanded that developers of communications services spy on their users by "monitoring" them. Tell me again how Apple supposedly respects privacy?
- djsumdog 9y ago
  Are there no end-to-end encrypted communication apps in the Apple store/iOS? I know it's an option (that no one uses) in Facebook. It's kinda ironic since Apple refused to break encryption on their own devices for the FBI.
  - galad87 9y ago
    Yes there are, Telegram issue has got nothing to do with end-to-end encryption. Whatsapp and Signal are end-to-end for example and available on the app store.
  - maxerickson 9y ago
    iMessage itself is end to end encrypted (as is Facetime). Signal, WhatsApp and Wire are all available on iOS and end to end encrypted. Other commenter is wrong.
- mathiasben 9y ago
  Aren't there PGP clients available through the app store?
- mitchty 9y ago
  > Secure communication is not possible on iOS because Apple does not permit it. Explain Signal then, otherwise citation needed.
- mbesto 9y ago
  This is totally unfounded...stop spreading FUD without legitimate sources. WhatsApp, Signal, Wire...
thanatropism 9y ago
Every social network has a "weird" subset. "Weird facebook" is circularly-referencing visual memes. Weird Telegram is people who mix their Deleuze and Bataille and come up with something like the Andy Kaufmann version of witchcraft mysticism. I mean, it's awesome.
- Infernal 9y ago
  I've never tried/installed Telegram but thought it was just a messaging app - not a social network. Now I'm /almost/ curious enough to try it.... but I can't install it now.
  - klez 9y ago
    It depends on your definition of a social network. Telegram is a messaging app with group chat you can join and others where you're invited to. And bots of varying utility.
  - eitland 9y ago
    Many use it for many-to-many family chat: Pictures from birthdays and everyday life to aunts/uncles and grandparents etc. Many also use it for social/professional groups (again many-to-many) where it offers simplicity but also includes moderation features in "supergroups" that can have up to 100 000 users. Lately I've also joined a few channels. Channels are one-to-many (or rather: one or a few-to-many) As for why Telegram it is super easy to use, it seems well aligned with my interests in that it's owner already lost his previous company to authorities and seems obsessed with preventing that from happening again. That said: if your life or professional life depends on strong crypto I'd think twice or more as certain bright and leading cryptographers seems to distrust/hate it. (Anyone who needs that should think carefully anyways but Signal seems to be a good option that is also aligned with the users interests. WhatsApp is often recommended as well and they also seem to have solid crypto but I actively avoid them as they've broken too many promises already and also has a owner that is not aligned with my interests.)
- sr-ix 9y ago
  where can I find weird telegram?
lixtra 9y ago
Pump and dump in Telegram groups was recently discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16252063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16252063
nailer 9y ago
From the article: > Telegram has risen in popularity thanks to its focus on advanced security features and the ability to hold secret conversations with end-to-end encryption. Isn't this wrong? I thought Telegram was famous for decrypting messages in transit.
- theon144 9y ago
  Nah; their biggest security blunder is: a) The secure chats are opt-in b) Their (own) protocol hasn't been audited yet. But it's a still valuable privacy-oriented app.
  - vesak 9y ago
    c) Group chats cannot be secured
mahemm 9y ago
Following all of the negative press Signal has gotten recently, I feel it's unethical to let a Telegram post pass without a reminder that they don't even bother to encrypt group chats, and that there is still no proof whatsoever that their protocol is secure.
- verytrivial 9y ago
  > Following all of the negative press Signal has gotten about security flaws Sorry, what? Can you show me where Signal has been implicated in flaws? There are some stories about security agencies bypassing Signal, but that is true on any hardware platform you didn't wire-wrap yourself.
  - mahemm 9y ago
    I worded that poorly and have edited the OP to reflect that. I was referring to the recently re-discovered paper about group chats (e.g. https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2018/01/11/whatsapp-signal-group-chats/ https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2018/01/11/whatsapp-signal-g... paper here: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/713.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/713.pdf)
    - Forbo 9y ago
      > “The good news is that in Signal the attack is very difficult to execute,” Green noted. “The reason is that in order to add someone to your group, I need to know the group ID. Since the group ID is a random 128-bit number (and is never revealed to non-group-members or even the server) that pretty much blocks the attack. The main exception to this is former group members, who already know the group ID — and can now add themselves back to the group with impunity.” Sounds like making a mountain out of a molehill.
      - mahemm 9y ago
        It absolutely is! Which is why I felt like it was important to bring more attention to the much lesser security stance of others in the space.
goda90 9y ago
It's back on there. https://twitter.com/durov/status/959094104822034434 https://twitter.com/durov/status/959094104822034434
FiveSquared 9y ago
E2E encryption’s bad! Terrorism! Bad things! Shock and terror! Politicians lying about encryption! Moar of all of that! /s
igloofoo 9y ago
There may be political motive to this. Why is Telegram X issued by "Telegram Messenger LLP" while the original Telegram is issued by "Telegram LLC"? Telegram LLC, which issues the original Telegram app on the App Store has been undergoing litigation with regards to its ownership. It is based out of Russia and a company called UCP with Krelim ties who 'bought' VKontakte has been suing Durov for full Telegram ownership pursuant to VKontakte 'purchase'. Telegram Messenger LLP however is based in London and seemingly wholly owned by Durov crew. In 2014, Telegram Messenger LLP launched Telegram HD, a separate app from Telegram-LLC-issued-Telegram. Now it is launching Telegram X , another separate app (which was until very recently Challegram, an open source Telegram client, winner of Telegram contest, and purchased by Durov) . Draw your own conclusions. EDITED for clarity and details https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-telegram-lawsuits-explained-pavel-durov-58989 https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-telegram-lawsuits-ex... http://www.ewdn.com/2014/07/29/pavel-durov-has-cloned-telegram/ http://www.ewdn.com/2014/07/29/pavel-durov-has-cloned-telegr... https://rusletter.com/articles/ucp_requires_to_recognize_telegram_as_the_property_of_vkontakte https://rusletter.com/articles/ucp_requires_to_recognize_tel... http://www.frandroid.com/android/applications/securite-applications/484643_telegram-fait-lacquisition-de-challegram-et-le-renomme-en-telegram-x http://www.frandroid.com/android/applications/securite-appli...
- Theodores 9y ago
  I think the 'moral panic' about crypto is a far more likely political reason. Nobody had heard of Telegram before, now it is where you go to find out what coin is going to the moon next. Yesterday Facebook took down all crypto-gambling adverts. There is a duty of care to not be the company responsible for making your customers crypto bag-holders. The gig is up with crypto in its current scam incarnation.
  - jsmthrowaway 9y ago
    You realize you're alleging that Apple is moderating its App Store based on conversations people are having within an app? Given the gravity of your claim, and the fact that there are cryptocurrency-related applications all over the App Store, you really need to think about whether your possibility is more likely. (It isn't.) Facebook taking down cryptocurrency gambling ads is much different than Apple removing a general purpose instant messenger. You're finding a connection you want to find, I'm guessing based on your knowledge of PnD groups being on Telegram, that being your sole exposure to Telegram, and your opinion on cryptocurrency. Apple is very conservative with adult content which I consider the far more likely reason, be that buggy image search, some kind of trending view that porn snuck into, that kind of thing.
kragen 9y ago
Any open communications network will have inappropriate content, more or less by definition — if not immediately, then once it grows to have a lot of users.
Animats 9y ago
Because it allows users to send inappropriate content? What next, automatic voice censorship? That's technically feasible now.
- module0000 9y ago
  >> What next, automatic voice censorship? Yes. The manual from 1984 is being followed in an uncanny fashion.
- morganvachon 9y ago
  It may have been triggered by one of the sets of "stickers" available as alternatives to emoji. I've browsed through them and while they all seem PG-13 or tamer to me, I can see how someone with sensitivity towards suggestive cartoons would be offended. There are a few with female cartoons showing cleavage, and at least one that is obviously targeted at furries.
  - Doxin 9y ago
    As far as I can tell anyone can create a set of stickers. There's much worse out there than just cleavage or furries.
    - morganvachon 9y ago
      Yes but don't they have to be submitted to Telegram for acceptance? That's what it says in the "Stickers" section of Settings. Then again, maybe they accept all submissions by default and depend on the community to self-police. Anyway, all I ever see are the "trending" ones in the app's interface. I wouldn't know where to look beyond that (and I don't use them so I don't care to look for them anyway).
      - sli 9y ago
        You can create arbitrary sticker packs all you want from within the Telegram client using one of Telegram's own bots (Stickers, similar to BotFather for creating bot accounts). I've made a few myself. Unless Telegram promotes them in the stickers section, they have to be shared manually after that. Telegram itself does not prevent you from making any sticker pack you want.
qwerty456127 9y ago
Why not remove Chrome, Safari and E-mail clients for inappropriate content too? Why not WhatsApp, Skype or iMessage? Telegram is just a wire, it's up to the users if they want to use it to talk to other users that speak 'inappropriate'. This is why I will never buy an iPhone (though I don't mind a MacBook as long as root access and legal ways to install Linux have not been locked on them yet) - I want to use the device the way I want, have full control over its filesystem, run the apps I want without all that store bullshit (which hits even harder if you live outside the USA by the way, in synergy with your local government bullshit and with what corporations think about your region market) and decide what is appropriate for me myself. Today Apple is a fascist organization. Historical fascists did fairly good in eye-candy design and hardware quality too but that's the only good part of them and it's pretty much ruined by so much crazy fascist bullshit to tolerate in exchange.
- donarb 9y ago
  No fascism here, just a buggy program. All the developer has to do is to follow Apple's rules whereby the user is given the opportunity to control inappropriate content. As was mentioned in the article, the developer expects to fix their filters and resubmit the program.
  - qwerty456127 9y ago
    Nice to know the details, thanks. But anyway, how can a messenger app know what content is going to be inappropriate? What if I call somebody when I am drunk and say something inappropriate - can the telephone app tell this in advance? How is a messenger different?
webninja 9y ago
I still see the original Telegram app on Apple’s AppStore. I’ve been using Telegram app for a couple of months and it matches the same app I have installed. I don’t like waving the “Fake News” flag prematurely, but this seems like an appropriate time to start waving it.
ohiovr 9y ago
Isn't LibreTaxi based on telegram? My brother expressed an interest in making his own one man cab company and i mentioned alternatives to uber and lyft and one of them was libretaxi. I had no knowledge of what it did or how it worked but we were looking at it literally just the other day and now it is gone. My brother can't use lyft because he doesn't have a good enough car for them and uber doesn't cater to our small town. So scrach libretaxi off too.

Ahh the app store. It's just like the internet, except the websites are mini apps, and a mega corporation gets to control whats on it. And takes 30% of everything you make. Brilliant.

Turing_Machine 9y ago
> And takes 30% of everything you make. Compared to a website, where you get to keep 100% of zero? Users will pay for apps (not much, as a rule, but something), but will not pay for web sites. Third-party advertisers might pay, if you're lucky, and if you don't mind treating your users as a commodity, but the users themselves will not.
- lj3 9y ago
  > but will not pay for web sites. Subscriptions to web-based services don't count as paying for web sites?
  - artificial 9y ago
    How many people would you say subscribe to something they pay for online? For example news? The pool of subscribers for magazines and news is an ever shrinking pie. I know of no one in the last three jobs that maintains a subscription that’s under under age 40.
    - Frank2312 9y ago
      Netflix (and other similar platforms), Amazon Prime, Twitch subscriptions. Those are only 3 examples a ton of people pay for. If you provide a good service, you will get subscribers. News have been available for free for decades thanks to OTA TV broadcasts. That's why people don't pay for it. Niche journalism needs to have subscriptions since they can have way less views and people looking for news on that niche are ready to pay.
      - pavel_lishin 9y ago
        They're also not exactly something a developer can launch and start making money off of. Would you pay a subscription for Flappy Bird?
        klez 9y ago
        > Would you pay a subscription for Flappy Bird? I don't do that on the app store either. And software was sold way before app stores existed, so what's your point?
        eitland 9y ago
        I happily pay for games and apps, including upgrades if they are valuable to me. I refuse to pay monthly for stuff that shouldn't need backend services.
        skinnymuch 9y ago
        Flappy Bird didn’t make money from selling the app though. The example actually hurts your argument. Flappy Bird and many sites make money the same way - ads.
      - Turing_Machine 9y ago
        What makes you (and others) think that citing three (or even half a dozen) examples constitutes some kind of refutation of the general rule? There are somewhere over a billion web sites, dude. The number of those that are profitable with a subscription model (as opposed to being supported by advertising, or not being profitable at all) is a rounding error -- in the fourth or fifth decimal place.
        vonmoltke 9y ago
        The number of apps in all app stores combined that are profitable from store sales is also likely a rounding error.
        skinnymuch 9y ago
        How many apps are profitable and of those how many are made by independent people?
    - iand 9y ago
      Here are some of the online services that I subscribe to, delivered over the web: Github, AWS, pinboard.in, spotify, ancestry.com Content/news is a terrible example since there is an oversupply of poor quality content driven by providers who believe content supports their advertising revenue rather than the other way round.
    - peteey 9y ago
      News is free on the web and free as an app. You are not making a distinction. I paid nothing for my NPR and BBC apps.
      - thrill 9y ago
        The BBC is fully funded by the government (i.e. the taxpayer). NPR claims they are minimally funded by the government but sure does fight hard to keep that supposed 2%. But the main point is that someone else had to pay for what you espouse as free.
        DanBC 9y ago
        About a quarter of its revenue comes from BBC Worldwide selling BBC content to markets outside the UK.
    - eitland 9y ago
      Happy blendle user. Love to be able to pay for quality content. Same with Spotify. Both models are OK with me. What I don't wanna pay for is every newspaper wanting a monthly subscribtion either I read something or not.
    - addicted 9y ago
      And all those magazines and newspapers also have apps, yet that hasn’t somehow led to floods of money pouring into their coffers.
    - untog 9y ago
      This feels like kind of an aside - do those under 40s you know readily pay for news apps, but not for web subscriptions? If not it's not really related to the issue at hand.
    - elif 9y ago
      Confidence in news is also an ever shrinking pie. Not a great example.
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    The only way people would pay for web sites in the extent they pay for apps is if it’s as convenient. I don’t want to log in to get the paid benefits for example. I don’t want to enter my cc details to pay the subscription if it could be avoided by “the store” already knowing it, and so on. In the end reality is that I just pass on buying subscriptions and would probably prefer buying subscriber access to a website if they made an app facade for the site that handled payment and login. The UX of web sites and subscriptions is that bad.
    - EADGBE 9y ago
      With Stripe's integration of Apple Pay/Google Pay are you more willing or less willing to pay to use a web site?
- zeveb 9y ago
  > Compared to a website, where you get to keep 100% of zero? There's more to the Internet than websites. Believe it or not, there are lots of protocols out there, not just HTTP.
  - Turing_Machine 9y ago
    The parent explicitly said "websites".
danpalmer 9y ago
Ahh the App Store. It's just like the Play Store, except no viruses, far fewer scam apps, and there's a legitimate and thriving market for paid apps.
- Accacin 9y ago
  But they remove any apps that might show boobs?
  - mcny 9y ago
    > But they remove any apps that might show boobs? We are not much better, sadly. https://floens.github.io/Clover/gp_unavailable.txt https://floens.github.io/Clover/gp_unavailable.txt
- vinay427 9y ago
  The app stores you mentioned are inextricably to their respective operating systems. The problems with the Play Store are a compromise I'm willing to deal with so I can easily install apps using alternative app stores or none at all.
  - phoneboy 9y ago
    The store is their way to control their ecosystem, has nothing to do with the OS. This effort is a power-play against decentralized apps that threaten the centralized platform model.
    - vinay427 9y ago
      Yes, but my point is that the Play Store inherently allows for competition and limit's Google's control because they chose to develop it on a platform that allows for competing app stores and sideloading. Regardless of Google's choices in managing the Play Store, that stark difference between Google's approach and Apple's approach remains.
      - 9y ago
artificial 9y ago
Which internet are you on that requires 30% of all made on it? If news is any indicator the vast majority of people have no interest in paying for and even reading the content - the headline will suffice. Curation has its merits, for example not nearly as many trojaned clones. Ransomware does not exist. Ahhh users, bless them. The public daily demonstrates a lack of interest in owning and operating a well maintained and updatable/ed device.
- nullbyte 9y ago
  He's saying that the app store takes 30% of your earnings.
jmull 9y ago
I'm not sure why anyone argues against Apple's 30% cut like this. It's app developers who make the determination whether the cost is worth the benefit. As you point out, there are alternatives. Why do you think developers have massively and overwhelmingly opted-in?
- vetinari 9y ago
  Exactly, similarly, I'm not sure why anyone argues against the troll watching the bridge. It's the travelers who make the determination whether the price is worth crossing the bridge. After all, there are alternatives to bridges, why do the travelers opt to pay the fee? -- Obviously, /s
- pjc50 9y ago
  Please explain how developers can ship native iOS apps outside of the store?
  - ceejayoz 9y ago
    I think the point was they're free not to ship iOS apps.
    - marnett 9y ago
      Yea, but this isn't necessarily an alternative.
- cma 9y ago
  Because of network effects outside of anyone's control?
- djsumdog 9y ago
  > are alternatives Are there? Really? No, they're not. No one who isn't in tech is going to install F-droid. Few people will uninstall untrusted sources, or even know what that is. Fewer Apple users than ever jailbreak their phones. For over 90% of the market, no, there are no alternatives (other than a mobile website). Due to the non-standard nature of ARM and SoC/binary drivers, we don't even have a real alternative OS for old Android devices that's universal like most Linux distros on the PC in the 90s (although PostmarketOS is making some huge strides in this area). 30% is an insane cut. Bandcamp sells music with a 15% cut, literally half of Amazon/Google/Apple. I always prefer it because I know the band gets more money and I get a higher quality version of the song without a patent encumbered codec (FLAC and OGG downloads are supported). But no, there are no real alternatives. AppStore/Play are bastardizations of the software repo concept from Linux. If Google Play was a real package managers, it'd keep standardize shared jar files across apps (dependencies to reduce massive app size) either by mirroring maven repos and signing dependencies or creating their own system, and they'd also allow for easily adding 3rd party app trees. Both Apple and Google are closed walled gardens, where everything you need has to be contained in your bloated package, and where their corporate overlords get final approval of what is in and out.
pastastickers 9y ago
And how much does it cost to build and maintain your own domain, storage, delivery/updates infrastructure and billing system? Oh, and how about marketing for your app?
- jbigelow76 9y ago
  The app stores market your app for you? Ha!
  - pastastickers 9y ago
    Apple’s ‘App of the Day’ featuring boosts downloads by 1747%, games by 792%[1] [1] https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/24/apples-app-of-the-day-featuring-boosts-downloads-by-1747-games-by-792/ https://techcrunch.com/2017/10/24/apples-app-of-the-day-feat...
    - jbigelow76 9y ago
      Sure getting featured helps, just like if a fashion designer has a celebrity photographed in their clothes, they will probably see a temporary bump in sales. Getting featured on the App Store is one time, possibly incredibly beneficial, event, but it is not a marketing plan.
  - Veen 9y ago
    Ask developers how much difference being made a featured app makes to sales. Apple recently radically redesigned the App Store so that it could more effectively promote apps.
tw1010 9y ago
And the incentive/risk tradeoff is too much in favour of the former for optimistic entrepreneurs to ever think they'll be affected by something like this.
mherdeg 9y ago
The ebb and flow is kind of neat to watch. (1) Load AOL and visit keyword "UBER" to get started requesting a car now! (2) Type UBER into your web browser location bar then hit control-enter to visit http://UBER.com/ http://UBER.com/ and get started requesting a car now! (3) Load your app store and search for "UBER" to get started requesting a car now!
squarefoot 9y ago
"except the websites are mini apps, and a mega corporation gets to control whats on it" There is more to it. Using apps instead of websites we're killing the whole concept of making information and services available using a standard protocol. That's like going back over 30 years, even before gopher. Then there is the cloud->mainframe similarity, with data and services being moved somewhere into the net where the user has no control over his/her own data, and the whole email/usenet->social media migration which puts private and public communications in the hands of corporations having no intention of guaranteeing interoperability with competing systems. Basically the industry screwed 40+ years of IT development, not just in a technical way, but they did it behind shiny graphics and animated emoticons, so nobody really cares.
- phoneboy 9y ago
  That's why we need decentralized solutions that break the hold the current centralized platforms have on us.
  - ethbro 9y ago
    The problem wasn't that we didn't have decentralized solutions since the 1960s -- it was that we've never figured out a way to make hosting your own environment as easy / cheap as using an externally managed one.
  - s0adex 9y ago
    Not every user is smart. That's why there is a necessity for centralized/trusted solution. I wouldn't sleep well if I knew my mom could install a malware by mistake on appstore. Unfortunately, life is not this simple and every path there's a toll.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- m12k 9y ago
  > Using apps instead of websites we're killing the whole concept of making information and services available using a standard protocol I think the interesting thing to note here is that for most end users a standard protocol is not nearly as appealing as a standard user interface. Like how most iOS apps follow common navigation paradigms, so users don't need to spend time learning each new one. And how people tend to prefer buying things on Amazon instead of any random webshop. And how WeChat has almost become a little web of its own with custom chat UIs for e.g. ordering pizza. If open software for consumers is ever to stop being beaten by these walled gardens, it needs to get a ton more UX people involved and focus on the end user UX, not just the technical implementation.
gpmcadam 9y ago
Ahh the race track. It's just like the highway, except the roads are smaller and a corporation gets to control who drives on it. And they make you pay to use it. Brilliant.
debt 9y ago
It's supposedly more secure than the normal internet. But ya figure for a large company of creative geniuses they could figure out how to democratize security so that the whole system isn't wholly owned and controlled by a single entity.

shard972 9y ago

Related? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16280713 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16280713

mcguire 9y ago

"Telegram has risen in popularity thanks to its focus on advanced security features and the ability to hold secret conversations with end-to-end encryption. ... Telegram was forced to create a team of moderators in Indonesia to remove “terrorist-related content” after the Indonesian government threatened to ban the messaging app." Wait, how does that work?

maxerickson 9y ago
The secure chats are opt in. The normal mode shares everything with the server.
- dbrgn 9y ago
  This is probably mostly about the public channels, not regular group chats.
  - marksomnian 9y ago
    Correct. Moderators only intervene in public groups and channels, chats are exempt and secret chats are impossible to be moderated.
pr0ph3t 9y ago
Telegram has public channels that aren't encrypted.
- ReverseCold 9y ago
  Note that 1 to 1 chats are also not encrypted by default. It must be manually enabled - and once enabled you can only access the chat on a single device.

kevin_b_er 9y ago

Secure communication is not possible on iOS because Apple does not permit it. This is an accurate statement. Apple demands that Telegram be able to monitor and block "inappropriate" content. Therefor, secure communication is impossible on iOS. Apple has further demanded that developers of communications services spy on their users by "monitoring" them. Tell me again how Apple supposedly respects privacy?

djsumdog 9y ago
Are there no end-to-end encrypted communication apps in the Apple store/iOS? I know it's an option (that no one uses) in Facebook. It's kinda ironic since Apple refused to break encryption on their own devices for the FBI.
- galad87 9y ago
  Yes there are, Telegram issue has got nothing to do with end-to-end encryption. Whatsapp and Signal are end-to-end for example and available on the app store.
- maxerickson 9y ago
  iMessage itself is end to end encrypted (as is Facetime). Signal, WhatsApp and Wire are all available on iOS and end to end encrypted. Other commenter is wrong.
mathiasben 9y ago
Aren't there PGP clients available through the app store?
mitchty 9y ago
> Secure communication is not possible on iOS because Apple does not permit it. Explain Signal then, otherwise citation needed.
mbesto 9y ago
This is totally unfounded...stop spreading FUD without legitimate sources. WhatsApp, Signal, Wire...

thanatropism 9y ago

Every social network has a "weird" subset. "Weird facebook" is circularly-referencing visual memes. Weird Telegram is people who mix their Deleuze and Bataille and come up with something like the Andy Kaufmann version of witchcraft mysticism. I mean, it's awesome.

Infernal 9y ago
I've never tried/installed Telegram but thought it was just a messaging app - not a social network. Now I'm /almost/ curious enough to try it.... but I can't install it now.
- klez 9y ago
  It depends on your definition of a social network. Telegram is a messaging app with group chat you can join and others where you're invited to. And bots of varying utility.
- eitland 9y ago
  Many use it for many-to-many family chat: Pictures from birthdays and everyday life to aunts/uncles and grandparents etc. Many also use it for social/professional groups (again many-to-many) where it offers simplicity but also includes moderation features in "supergroups" that can have up to 100 000 users. Lately I've also joined a few channels. Channels are one-to-many (or rather: one or a few-to-many) As for why Telegram it is super easy to use, it seems well aligned with my interests in that it's owner already lost his previous company to authorities and seems obsessed with preventing that from happening again. That said: if your life or professional life depends on strong crypto I'd think twice or more as certain bright and leading cryptographers seems to distrust/hate it. (Anyone who needs that should think carefully anyways but Signal seems to be a good option that is also aligned with the users interests. WhatsApp is often recommended as well and they also seem to have solid crypto but I actively avoid them as they've broken too many promises already and also has a owner that is not aligned with my interests.)
sr-ix 9y ago
where can I find weird telegram?

lixtra 9y ago

Pump and dump in Telegram groups was recently discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16252063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16252063

nailer 9y ago

From the article: > Telegram has risen in popularity thanks to its focus on advanced security features and the ability to hold secret conversations with end-to-end encryption. Isn't this wrong? I thought Telegram was famous for decrypting messages in transit.

theon144 9y ago
Nah; their biggest security blunder is: a) The secure chats are opt-in b) Their (own) protocol hasn't been audited yet. But it's a still valuable privacy-oriented app.
- vesak 9y ago
  c) Group chats cannot be secured

mahemm 9y ago

Following all of the negative press Signal has gotten recently, I feel it's unethical to let a Telegram post pass without a reminder that they don't even bother to encrypt group chats, and that there is still no proof whatsoever that their protocol is secure.

verytrivial 9y ago
> Following all of the negative press Signal has gotten about security flaws Sorry, what? Can you show me where Signal has been implicated in flaws? There are some stories about security agencies bypassing Signal, but that is true on any hardware platform you didn't wire-wrap yourself.
- mahemm 9y ago
  I worded that poorly and have edited the OP to reflect that. I was referring to the recently re-discovered paper about group chats (e.g. https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2018/01/11/whatsapp-signal-group-chats/ https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2018/01/11/whatsapp-signal-g... paper here: https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/713.pdf https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/713.pdf)
  - Forbo 9y ago
    > “The good news is that in Signal the attack is very difficult to execute,” Green noted. “The reason is that in order to add someone to your group, I need to know the group ID. Since the group ID is a random 128-bit number (and is never revealed to non-group-members or even the server) that pretty much blocks the attack. The main exception to this is former group members, who already know the group ID — and can now add themselves back to the group with impunity.” Sounds like making a mountain out of a molehill.
    - mahemm 9y ago
      It absolutely is! Which is why I felt like it was important to bring more attention to the much lesser security stance of others in the space.

goda90 9y ago

It's back on there. https://twitter.com/durov/status/959094104822034434 https://twitter.com/durov/status/959094104822034434

FiveSquared 9y ago

E2E encryption’s bad! Terrorism! Bad things! Shock and terror! Politicians lying about encryption! Moar of all of that! /s

igloofoo 9y ago

There may be political motive to this. Why is Telegram X issued by "Telegram Messenger LLP" while the original Telegram is issued by "Telegram LLC"? Telegram LLC, which issues the original Telegram app on the App Store has been undergoing litigation with regards to its ownership. It is based out of Russia and a company called UCP with Krelim ties who 'bought' VKontakte has been suing Durov for full Telegram ownership pursuant to VKontakte 'purchase'. Telegram Messenger LLP however is based in London and seemingly wholly owned by Durov crew. In 2014, Telegram Messenger LLP launched Telegram HD, a separate app from Telegram-LLC-issued-Telegram. Now it is launching Telegram X , another separate app (which was until very recently Challegram, an open source Telegram client, winner of Telegram contest, and purchased by Durov) . Draw your own conclusions. EDITED for clarity and details https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-telegram-lawsuits-explained-pavel-durov-58989 https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/the-telegram-lawsuits-ex... http://www.ewdn.com/2014/07/29/pavel-durov-has-cloned-telegram/ http://www.ewdn.com/2014/07/29/pavel-durov-has-cloned-telegr... https://rusletter.com/articles/ucp_requires_to_recognize_telegram_as_the_property_of_vkontakte https://rusletter.com/articles/ucp_requires_to_recognize_tel... http://www.frandroid.com/android/applications/securite-applications/484643_telegram-fait-lacquisition-de-challegram-et-le-renomme-en-telegram-x http://www.frandroid.com/android/applications/securite-appli...

Theodores 9y ago
I think the 'moral panic' about crypto is a far more likely political reason. Nobody had heard of Telegram before, now it is where you go to find out what coin is going to the moon next. Yesterday Facebook took down all crypto-gambling adverts. There is a duty of care to not be the company responsible for making your customers crypto bag-holders. The gig is up with crypto in its current scam incarnation.
- jsmthrowaway 9y ago
  You realize you're alleging that Apple is moderating its App Store based on conversations people are having within an app? Given the gravity of your claim, and the fact that there are cryptocurrency-related applications all over the App Store, you really need to think about whether your possibility is more likely. (It isn't.) Facebook taking down cryptocurrency gambling ads is much different than Apple removing a general purpose instant messenger. You're finding a connection you want to find, I'm guessing based on your knowledge of PnD groups being on Telegram, that being your sole exposure to Telegram, and your opinion on cryptocurrency. Apple is very conservative with adult content which I consider the far more likely reason, be that buggy image search, some kind of trending view that porn snuck into, that kind of thing.

kragen 9y ago

Any open communications network will have inappropriate content, more or less by definition — if not immediately, then once it grows to have a lot of users.

Animats 9y ago

Because it allows users to send inappropriate content? What next, automatic voice censorship? That's technically feasible now.

module0000 9y ago
>> What next, automatic voice censorship? Yes. The manual from 1984 is being followed in an uncanny fashion.
morganvachon 9y ago
It may have been triggered by one of the sets of "stickers" available as alternatives to emoji. I've browsed through them and while they all seem PG-13 or tamer to me, I can see how someone with sensitivity towards suggestive cartoons would be offended. There are a few with female cartoons showing cleavage, and at least one that is obviously targeted at furries.
- Doxin 9y ago
  As far as I can tell anyone can create a set of stickers. There's much worse out there than just cleavage or furries.
  - morganvachon 9y ago
    Yes but don't they have to be submitted to Telegram for acceptance? That's what it says in the "Stickers" section of Settings. Then again, maybe they accept all submissions by default and depend on the community to self-police. Anyway, all I ever see are the "trending" ones in the app's interface. I wouldn't know where to look beyond that (and I don't use them so I don't care to look for them anyway).
    - sli 9y ago
      You can create arbitrary sticker packs all you want from within the Telegram client using one of Telegram's own bots (Stickers, similar to BotFather for creating bot accounts). I've made a few myself. Unless Telegram promotes them in the stickers section, they have to be shared manually after that. Telegram itself does not prevent you from making any sticker pack you want.

qwerty456127 9y ago

Why not remove Chrome, Safari and E-mail clients for inappropriate content too? Why not WhatsApp, Skype or iMessage? Telegram is just a wire, it's up to the users if they want to use it to talk to other users that speak 'inappropriate'. This is why I will never buy an iPhone (though I don't mind a MacBook as long as root access and legal ways to install Linux have not been locked on them yet) - I want to use the device the way I want, have full control over its filesystem, run the apps I want without all that store bullshit (which hits even harder if you live outside the USA by the way, in synergy with your local government bullshit and with what corporations think about your region market) and decide what is appropriate for me myself. Today Apple is a fascist organization. Historical fascists did fairly good in eye-candy design and hardware quality too but that's the only good part of them and it's pretty much ruined by so much crazy fascist bullshit to tolerate in exchange.

donarb 9y ago
No fascism here, just a buggy program. All the developer has to do is to follow Apple's rules whereby the user is given the opportunity to control inappropriate content. As was mentioned in the article, the developer expects to fix their filters and resubmit the program.
- qwerty456127 9y ago
  Nice to know the details, thanks. But anyway, how can a messenger app know what content is going to be inappropriate? What if I call somebody when I am drunk and say something inappropriate - can the telephone app tell this in advance? How is a messenger different?

webninja 9y ago

I still see the original Telegram app on Apple’s AppStore. I’ve been using Telegram app for a couple of months and it matches the same app I have installed. I don’t like waving the “Fake News” flag prematurely, but this seems like an appropriate time to start waving it.

ohiovr 9y ago

Isn't LibreTaxi based on telegram? My brother expressed an interest in making his own one man cab company and i mentioned alternatives to uber and lyft and one of them was libretaxi. I had no knowledge of what it did or how it worked but we were looking at it literally just the other day and now it is gone. My brother can't use lyft because he doesn't have a good enough car for them and uber doesn't cater to our small town. So scrach libretaxi off too.