3 ms·

>Are you making an "intent is irrelevant" argument about speech outside the workplace? I am accounting for the fact that people of different backgrounds interp

>Are you making an "intent is irrelevant" argument about speech outside the workplace? I am accounting for the fact that people of different backgrounds interpret statements differently. >What if the speaker cares about expressing frustration about bigotry? It is simple to express frustration about bigotry without using bigoted language. >Do they have to get your sign off on how to express it? They can do whatever they like, but if they act like a bigot, don't be surprised when they get labeled as one. >they have to choose between expressing anger about it or participating in a constructive dialogue about ending it Stop putting words in my mouth so that you can defend bigotry. They are free to express their anger any way they wish. However, if they way they choose is to be a bigot, then they will be called a bigot.

Chaebixi 9y ago
You should probably be aware of the term "tone-policing," because I think you're very close to being directly accused of it. In short, it's the social justice idea that: 1) people with the correct identities (LGBT, POC, women, etc) should be able to express themselves as rudely, angrily, or abusively as they like; and that 2) people with other, disfavored, identities (such as white men) cannot object to that rude, angry, or abusive manner of expression. If they do, it's an objectionable form of "oppression." Instead they must take the incivility, be supportive of it, and desperately and submissively search for some kind of positive meaning in the nasty statements. You see this all of the twisting around "kill all men." However, IMHO, all of that is really just a tactic pushed by a bunch of assholes who want to be jerks to others and get away with it.
- camgunz 9y ago
  Yeah I felt like searine was tone policing a little, but your characterization is... not helpful? > 1) people with the correct identities (LGBT, POC, women, etc) should be able to express themselves as rudely, angrily, or abusively as they like; It's not about correct or disfavored identities. It's about people who have been oppressed by society. If I chopped off 20% of your paycheck, you'd probably be angry about it. If I then were like, "whoa, there's no need to be angry", that's super dismissive. You can't do something bad to someone, and then come down on them for reacting angrily. It's also not "as they like". It's really only specifically about social issues. > Instead they must take the incivility, be supportive of it, and desperately and submissively search for some kind of positive meaning in the nasty statements. Basically none of this is right. "submissively"? Really just understand that our culture makes things harder for people who aren't cis straight white men, and don't give them grief when they get frustrated about it.
camgunz 9y ago
Bigotry isn't really about words or drawing lines around sex, gender, or race. It's about the institutions that oppress people of color, LGBT people, and women. That's why saying "kill all men" as an expression of frustration isn't the same as, "women are biologically worse engineers than men". The US has no history of male genocide and it's silly to even consider. The US does have a history of curbing the rights of women though, and if people like James Damore have their way we'll start walking back down the path where we curtail the rights, freedoms, and opportunities of women and justify it using "biology". There is no correlating behavior here. If feminists win out, women will pay the same for health care as men do, we'll have as many women working in STEM as we have men, women will be paid the same money for the same work. You can't equate that with sexism. You can't say that if we want to advocate for equal rights for women in the workplace that we have to tolerate people advocating against equal rights for women in the workplace. It's deeply and clearly wrong. It's like if I want to say "vaccines don't cause autism" we have to give equal air time to people who think they do. No, we don't. They're wrong. That's why these things aren't the same. I would guess you'll probably just say (again), "people who say 'kill all men' are expressing hate against men, that's misandry and it's bigoted", but please at least consider what I've written now to... idk 8 people in this thread. The worst thing that happens is you come to the conclusion I'm just spending a lot of time ineffectively trolling and burning my karma. But I'm hoping you'll start to consider that the issue is much more complicated.
- searine 9y ago
  >Bigotry isn't really about words Words matter. Bigotry isn't just words, but words matter. A lot. Instead of dumping a ton of words defending bigotry, maybe just use a few well chosen ones to denounce it.
  - camgunz 9y ago
    I've spent a lot of time explaining this to you. If you don't want to listen that's fine, if a little disappointing. But really, please do some reading on feminism and anti-racism. Look here [1]. Look at the differences in hate crimes against white and Black people. Or look here [2] and see the differences in unemployment. Or look here [3] and see the difference in prison population. Or look here [4] at the differences between male and female victims of domestic violence. These things happen because of institutional racism and sexism, and if we're going to deal with them we're going to have to be informed. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crime... [2]: https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm [3]: https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.... [4]: https://ncadv.org/statistics https://ncadv.org/statistics

Chaebixi 9y ago

You should probably be aware of the term "tone-policing," because I think you're very close to being directly accused of it. In short, it's the social justice idea that: 1) people with the correct identities (LGBT, POC, women, etc) should be able to express themselves as rudely, angrily, or abusively as they like; and that 2) people with other, disfavored, identities (such as white men) cannot object to that rude, angry, or abusive manner of expression. If they do, it's an objectionable form of "oppression." Instead they must take the incivility, be supportive of it, and desperately and submissively search for some kind of positive meaning in the nasty statements. You see this all of the twisting around "kill all men." However, IMHO, all of that is really just a tactic pushed by a bunch of assholes who want to be jerks to others and get away with it.

camgunz 9y ago
Yeah I felt like searine was tone policing a little, but your characterization is... not helpful? > 1) people with the correct identities (LGBT, POC, women, etc) should be able to express themselves as rudely, angrily, or abusively as they like; It's not about correct or disfavored identities. It's about people who have been oppressed by society. If I chopped off 20% of your paycheck, you'd probably be angry about it. If I then were like, "whoa, there's no need to be angry", that's super dismissive. You can't do something bad to someone, and then come down on them for reacting angrily. It's also not "as they like". It's really only specifically about social issues. > Instead they must take the incivility, be supportive of it, and desperately and submissively search for some kind of positive meaning in the nasty statements. Basically none of this is right. "submissively"? Really just understand that our culture makes things harder for people who aren't cis straight white men, and don't give them grief when they get frustrated about it.

camgunz 9y ago

Bigotry isn't really about words or drawing lines around sex, gender, or race. It's about the institutions that oppress people of color, LGBT people, and women. That's why saying "kill all men" as an expression of frustration isn't the same as, "women are biologically worse engineers than men". The US has no history of male genocide and it's silly to even consider. The US does have a history of curbing the rights of women though, and if people like James Damore have their way we'll start walking back down the path where we curtail the rights, freedoms, and opportunities of women and justify it using "biology". There is no correlating behavior here. If feminists win out, women will pay the same for health care as men do, we'll have as many women working in STEM as we have men, women will be paid the same money for the same work. You can't equate that with sexism. You can't say that if we want to advocate for equal rights for women in the workplace that we have to tolerate people advocating against equal rights for women in the workplace. It's deeply and clearly wrong. It's like if I want to say "vaccines don't cause autism" we have to give equal air time to people who think they do. No, we don't. They're wrong. That's why these things aren't the same. I would guess you'll probably just say (again), "people who say 'kill all men' are expressing hate against men, that's misandry and it's bigoted", but please at least consider what I've written now to... idk 8 people in this thread. The worst thing that happens is you come to the conclusion I'm just spending a lot of time ineffectively trolling and burning my karma. But I'm hoping you'll start to consider that the issue is much more complicated.

searine 9y ago
>Bigotry isn't really about words Words matter. Bigotry isn't just words, but words matter. A lot. Instead of dumping a ton of words defending bigotry, maybe just use a few well chosen ones to denounce it.
- camgunz 9y ago
  I've spent a lot of time explaining this to you. If you don't want to listen that's fine, if a little disappointing. But really, please do some reading on feminism and anti-racism. Look here [1]. Look at the differences in hate crimes against white and Black people. Or look here [2] and see the differences in unemployment. Or look here [3] and see the difference in prison population. Or look here [4] at the differences between male and female victims of domestic violence. These things happen because of institutional racism and sexism, and if we're going to deal with them we're going to have to be informed. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crimes-against-lgbt.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/06/16/us/hate-crime... [2]: https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cpsee_e16.htm [3]: https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.... [4]: https://ncadv.org/statistics https://ncadv.org/statistics