5 ms·

Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins

79 points by shrikant 16y ago

smutticus 16y ago
Here is the Google translate link for the original article in Swedish. http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&act=url&u=http://www.expressen.se/Nyheter/1.2104976/wikileaks-grundare-anhallen-for-valdtakt&sl=sv&tl=en http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&h...
jgrahamc 16y ago
Yeah, could be a smear. Could also be true. Let's not have senstional titles on HN.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Assange is more than likely aware that he is a 'target of opportunity' to many institutions, which would make him very circumspect about doing stuff that could endanger either his reputation or the reputation of wikileaks. The timing of this is just too convenient to ignore. For now, until there is some hard evidence I'm in the 'smear' corner. But I still agree with you about the title, that's an opinion.
  - todayiamme 16y ago
    >>>would make him very circumspect about doing stuff that could endanger either his reputation or the reputation of wikileaks.<<< Exactly. He is just too smart and just too obsessed about the cause to do something as stupid as that. Let's assume he did it once in a fit of mental incapacitation under the pressure, but then he walks out and does it again a few days later in another town? Even the average wannabe Criminal Joe would lie low for a while unless he was on a Bonnie-&-Clyde-esque rampage, which is a bit of a stretch to imagine with him. I am willing to bet that he has been through far worse strain in the process of fighting against the Australian govt. for his son (see: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian?currentPage=all http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_...). It's unlikely that this would be the straw that broke the camel's back. Distantly possible, yes. Likely. No.
    - wallflower 16y ago
      That New Yorker article linked above was fantastic. Who is he? How did WikiLeaks arise? Julian did not come out of nowhere, he's always been somewhere. > Soon enough, Assange must confront the paradox of his creation: the thing that he seems to detest most—power without accountability—is encoded in the site’s DNA, and will only become more pronounced as WikiLeaks evolves into a real institution.
  - rue 16y ago
    "Clinton/Hurd/Any number of politicians/civil servants/CEOs is more than likely aware that he is a 'target of opportunity' to many institutions, which would make him very circumspect about doing stuff that could endanger either his reputation or the reputation of <whatever>."
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      I see that sort of comment trotted out here frequently, but Clinton/Hurd/and any number of politicians/civil servants and CEOS were not about to release a massive set of secret documents. The timing is just too convenient. Assange would have to have reasoned that a charge against him at this point in time would be so unbelievable that he could get away with this. And that is something that I find unbelievable. Evidence. Not just 'a charge'. So, in the case of Clinton, a dress, in the case of Hurd falsified expense reports.
      - rue 16y ago
        No, they were about to work on the budget, vote on some important issue, a big merger, celebrate their anniversary, about to have a child... I appreciate that the mind of a philanderer let alone a rapist is a bit alien, but you must understand that the decisions are not entirely rational. As I state above, I find the charges suspect but "he would have known better" is not a convincing counterargument.
        todayiamme 16y ago
        That's the thing you see. This man does not know better! If he knew better he would have been running a startup and laughing his way to the bank. This man is obsessed with one idea. Freedom. Or, his version of it and such people are really really unlikely to burn up their cause for something like this. This is a man who spent nights awake working on a cryptographic framework for his baby. This is a man who spent months trying to decrypt files while on the run. This is a man who hardly lives a life of luxury and spends almost every second of his time towards his cause. Do you think that he is rational enough to do anything else? On the other hand, what does the USA have to lose in terms of PR? They're one of the most powerful countries in the world and they can call the shots for now, and unfortunately people know that. The shame of losing their secrets on the other hand... I really wouldn't be surprised that the women would have been chosen for some sexual history with him or something if possible. It's a longshot, but this will become a trial by media. A blot no matter how small will overshadow the leaking of the documents, and the know that. Why? Because it makes for a better story. Think about it. Would you rather see an hour long TV special about 16000 leaked war logs and their statistical correlations to war time deaths? As well as strategic failures that might get a bit dry? Or, the story of an outlaw on the run :flash picture: Out for a cause :cue music: with a dark twist? Did he or did he not? With an exclusive panel to debate it. I think that's your answer right there. Most people don't give a damn and that blot will permeate through and cloud their vision of what's going to follow, and it's not like they were eagerly awaiting it in the first place.
  - mseebach 16y ago
    There's an option more that isn't smear: that the accusations are real, but that he's innocent. Accused of != guilty of
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    One thing i have learned in my job is this; generally coincidences happen all the time. The real conspiracies etc. Are much much more infrequent. Occams razor
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      Even the paranoid have enemies. And Assange has more enemies than most, both corporate and governmental.
    - varjag 16y ago
      Well, keep in mind though that being a recognized champion in some field does not guarantee deep virtue of character. Remember Charles Lindbergh, the praised aviator, his boy killed by kidnappers? Same Lindy who turned a fan of eugenics and loudmouthed Nazi supporter. Or as more recent example, Hans Reiser? Am sure that hurt to a lot of fellows here. Let's just reserve our judgement until we get more facts.
jacquesm 16y ago
How convenient. Translation of this article in nu.nl: http://www.nu.nl/tech/2316742/voorman-wikileaks-gezocht-verkrachting.html http://www.nu.nl/tech/2316742/voorman-wikileaks-gezocht-verk... STOCKHOLM - Julian Assange, the leader of whistleblower website wikileaks is since Friday even in Sweden a fugitive in two rape caes. This has been reported by the public prosecutor on Saturday morning according to the Swedish media. Two women, aged twenty and thirty have gone to the police on Friday evening to relate their stories. Against the one Assange is reported to have used sexual violence last weekend in the South of Sweden, the other was reportedly raped on Tuesday morning in the nearby town of Enköping. According to the justice ministry in Stockholm the reports by the women contain enough substance to issue a warrant. For the moment it is unclear where Julian Assange is right now. Wikileaks, a website that is running on computers in a safe house in Solna near Stockholm, was recently in the news. The whistleblowers site published tens of thousands of pages of secret American military documents about the war in Afghanistan. -- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/7957665/Wikileaks-founder-Julian-Assange-facing-arrest-over-rape-claim.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/7957665/Wiki... http://twitter.com/wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks "Julian Assange: the charges are without basis and their issue at this moment is deeply disturbing."
mwg 16y ago
Let's hope we remember innocence until proven guilty. The timing is suspect though.
- hermanthegerman 16y ago
  Of course if you want a smear campaign, you choose a charge that ensures that the innocence before proven guilty principle is immediately dropped. I wonder why it's not child pornography, that would allow the authorities to go after every data system he ever touched, and it's way easier to make up stuff.
  - shrikant 16y ago
    Yep, surprised that it's not child porn. Wikileaks hosts quite a lot of pointers to child porn resources in the form of country-wise website banlists.
    - mwg 16y ago
      There is a bunch of CIA guys going "Damnit." right now.
  - notahacker 16y ago
    Child pornography would certainly be a far more effective smear charge if you wanted to discredit the movement and not just the individual behind it.
RyanGWU82 16y ago
Smear campaign? Only according to the accused rapist. Scenario 1: Two Swedish women really are pressing charges against Mr. Assange. Scenario 2: The U.S. Pentagon is so upset by Wikileaks that they've convinced a Swedish prosecutor to file baseless rape charges, without actual victims, against the Wikileaks spokesman. The simplest explanation is the most likely.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Scenario 1a, two Swedish women get a bunch of cash in return for filing a bogus charge of rape (edit: which is just as hard to prove as it is to disprove, causing a lot of smoke absent any fire at a time when wikileaks needs to be seen as 'clean' and on the moral high ground). It's not as if governments haven't been doing shit like this for ages. Indeed, the simplest explanation is the most likely. Until this hit the wires I figured Assange is just a bit too paranoid, this charge is so over the top that I'm no longer convinced he's paranoid but that he was right all along. After all, not one but two rape cases out of the blue reported by two women that know each other just when wikileaks is about to release a bunch of incriminating material after refusing to budge under pressure? It's technically possible, but that's the only thing this charge has going for it at this point in time, evidence is what it is all about.
  - shrikant 16y ago
    Indeed. I was always curious - if the RIAA/MPAA could flex international muscle to get ThePirateBay raided, why not the Pentagon/CIA?
    - jarin 16y ago
      I'm more scared of the RIAA than I am of the CIA.
      - shrikant 16y ago
        Well yeah, the chances of you having done something that would piss off the RIAA are way more than having done something that the CIA would frown at :)
kilian 16y ago
Well, that certainly sounds convenient at the very least. Two women in two towns, with Assange charged in absentia. Of course it could be true, but somehow that doesn't seem the most reasonable explanation.
ErrantX 16y ago
I reckon this is a Wikileaks "cookup" to prove how hounded and persecuted they are. But then, what do I know. I don't think we can jump to any conclusions yet Edit: for the down voters, thie point being made is - we have no idea of thetruth, take care speculating. Grr
- tome 16y ago
  I don't know why you got downvoted for this. Many seem to be happy with the idea that an unfriendly government paid these women to smear Assange's name. It seems to me equally credible that Assange or a friend set up these false allegations, which once easily dismissed, will indeed show the world how "persecuted" Wikileaks is.
  - ErrantX 16y ago
    Yes, the point wasn't so much i think that's the case - it was just to show how, hours after this has occured, we can hardly figure out the truth. I honestly expected better of hn :-(
    - tome 16y ago
      Given the amount of sympathy these charges have garnered for Assange, it seems he'd have been quite smart if he'd chosen to pay these women to make false claims against him.
      - jacquesm 16y ago
        Yes, but if that would come out as the truth he's really shot himself in the foot. He might as well pack up then, after that nobody is ever going to believe him. Scenario 16: Some women get paid to make eyes at Assange, he falls for it, they have sex, they go and accuse him of rape. Then hope he pulls a Clinton and ends up having to define the meaning of 'is'. If I was Julian Assange at this point I'd blow the whole thing wide open and document each and every little bit of what happened if anything, even if it makes him look less saintly. That's the best defense against a smear campaign, if anything at all happened he'll look a lot worse if he tries to cover it up. And he may have to step down from Wikileaks pending the investigation, which is another easy win for the opposition, it would be the prudent thing to do.
aw3c2 16y ago
The smart wikileaks-supporting and not-believing cyber warrior would not talk about it. Even by criticising like this, you are giving attention and spread the accusations.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  That's the cowards way out, not the smart way out. It's all over the news, from China to the Netherlands and further. The smart wikileaks supporting and skeptical cyber warrior would do best to reserve judgement but to show that there is a reason why there is probably more than meets the eye here.
  - aw3c2 16y ago
    I missed that this was everywhere already.
PassTheAmmo 16y ago
The Local usually is the best source for Swedish news in English. http://www.thelocal.se/28496/20100821/ http://www.thelocal.se/28496/20100821/ Isn't wikileaks hosted in Sweden btw? I don't think it would be affected, but still a thing to keep in mind.
rue 16y ago
One cannot really make the judgment on this being a "smear" or not at this point: to include it in the title is irresponsible at best. The circumstances seem a bit odd (two assaults so close to eachother without a previous history) which could suggest framing either by an external entity or the women involved. According to http://expressen.se http://expressen.se, the women apparently do know eachother and have at some point been reluctant to co-operate with the investigators expressing either "being scared to death" or "being in fear for their lives" because of Assange's high status (the meaning being a bit unclear from the context). Still, the accusations are serious and need to be investigated - which should have happened without publicity but that tends to be utopic when a public figure is concerned.
- effn 16y ago
  Sorry, but "being scared to death" and "being in fear for their lives" are your words, and has not appeared in any news reports so far. The Swedish word "livrädd" just means "terrified", not that you are in fear for your life.
  - rue 16y ago
    That is what I intended to convey with "scared to death" which in English is used colloquially to mean "terrified". I appreciate that translation is likely the intended meaning. I gave both translations because the term used was "livrädd", not merely "rädd". This could be an intentional obfuscation of the sentiment behind the words - thus, it could be read to state they said they were "scared to death" (or "terrified" if you prefer) or actually in fear for their lives. Implications with plausible deniability.
- elmindreda 16y ago
  The Swedish translates more closely as his position of power, not high status.
DanielBMarkham 16y ago
I would caution commentators not to make false dichotomies here. It is not necessarily a choice between Assange committing a crime and Assange being framed. Both may be true. Neither may be true. I understand that this fits a narrative, and perhaps it turns out he was framed. Or perhaps it turns out he is has criminal tendencies and the west used those tendencies to frame him. Or he's innocent. Or he's innocent and nobody framed him. Simply because it fits easily into a narrative does not mean that the most likely scenario is the narrative. You could make a case that having a criminal trial would be a terrible thing for intelligence agencies. It'd just give him a bigger microphone and also put the agencies at risk of being discovered. In fact, if it is a setup, it's one of the most bone-headed setups I've ever seen. Better to just kill him. If this is discovered as a frame-job, it'd be a god-awful PR disaster. The risks don't merit the rewards.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > If this is discovered as a frame-job, it'd be a god-awful PR disaster. The risks don't merit the rewards. That's the strongest argument against this being a frame-up so far. On the other hand breaking in to the Democratic party's offices wasn't very smart either and that definitely happened, and I can think of a few more cases like that. Government agencies are definitely not above doing really stupid things that turn in to PR disasters.
  - DanielBMarkham 16y ago
    Which is the strongest counter-argument. :) But really, trying to frame some guy that a hundred-million people think is some super-hero? It's crazy. They certainly may be doing it, but it's really beyond-stupid crazy. I'd just shoot him. Easy enough to whack somebody, and without evidence people can spend their lifetimes pointing fingers at each other. Might even make a great series of books and a movie. But with real, live people making criminal allegations that aren't true? Lots of little loose ends dangling around. Too many. In fact, I'd bet you that even if he was guilty and was not framed, there'll be a series of investigative articles and blogs "proving" he was framed anyway. The narrative is simply too hard to ignore. Which -- if you think about it -- would give him a free hand to commit any crime he wants. After all, no matter what he was accused of, he was framed, right? Welcome to the hall of mirrors.
Daishiman 16y ago
The amount of propagandish trolling in this thread is incredible. It is absolutely clear that this is a smear campaing. C'mon, a man who knows is being watched by intelligence agencies because of the information he divulges, agencies which have covert and public disinformation programs, would actually go ahead and do such criminal behavior? Possible? Perhaps, but absolutely unlikely to the point where the notion is absolutely ridiculous. I'm beginning to wonder how many of the posts claiming that it's a likely possibility are paid shills from the various disinformation services.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  You're out of line I think. The suggestion that people that have been here for years are paid shills guilty of disinformation is beyond the pale. I agree that this is most likely a smear and at a minimum blown up, but evidence is where it is at and people that defend the 'other side' of the argument (especially ErrantX and DanielBMarkham) are for the most part just playing the devils advocate and cautioning you to think for yourself instead of following the herd.
  - Daishiman 16y ago
    General Motors hired prostitutes to solicit Ralph Nader because of his automobile safety activism (from Reddit): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#Automobile_safety_activism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#Automobile_safety_a... Believing that these claims, at this point in the affair, have any serious possibility of being real is to be ignorant of the history of the way power structures way. Discrediting dangerous figures which are too well-known to be dissuaded silently is common to the extreme. And seriously, we're talking about the same power structure that has put dictators and thieves in places throughout the world when it was convenient. A smear campaign is about the least dishonest thing that they could do.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      What's that got to do with the price of tea in China, that's just handwaving. You accused a bunch of people and now you point outside of HN to bolster your non-existent case. Rubbish. I'm not taking issue with your interpretation of the case against Julian Assange, I'm taking issue with your case of there being paid shills in this thread. Give HN some credit.
flog 16y ago
I suspect WikiLeaks would have a plan in place if Assange was removed. WikiLeaks should live on and continue to do it's work.
- joezydeco 16y ago
  You mean like that encrypted "Insurance" file that's on there?
Mz 16y ago
FWIW: 1) I've done two college papers on date rape. In most cases, date rape involves alcohol (ie impaired judgment) and bad communication, often due to cross cultural misunderstandings. 2) I read once that if you ask a room full of (American?) women how many of them have been raped, half the hands go up. If you ask them how many of them said "No" and then had sex anyway, 90% of the hands go up. Given that the legal definition of rape hinges on consent, I think it's pretty clear that even women who haven't had completely consenting sex have difficulty figuring out whether or not they were raped. (On the flip side, I think there is a counterargument that sometimes, even when she initially said "no", maybe it wasn't really rape -- which muddies the water even further.) My point: I think genuinely, unquestionably consenting sex is really a quite difficult standard to meet and there are many cases of less than ideal encounters where it ends up being a judgment call on the part of the woman as to a) how she views it in her own mind ("rape" or something else) and b) whether or not to publicly accuse/charge someone. I will toss out the idea that a man who feels not only okay with but morally compelled to publish all kinds of stuff the American government doesn't want published (ie without their consent and over their protests, with consent being the legal lynch-pin for the definition of rape) might well start applying that general thought pattern to other situations. People who are very morally self righteous frequently feel justified in treading on the will and rights of others and then pat themselves on the back for being "heroes". I can imagine someone who feels he knows what is best for others basically telling himself "these two women needed it and I'm just doing what is best for them".
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Promoting government and corporate transparency is a service to humanity, raping people is a crime. You can't equate the fact that the American government protests about having their secret stuff leaked to 'knowing what's best' for women that don't want sex with you. I'm just waiting for the inevitable groupies that will jump out of the woodwork that they too have been accosted by Assange at some point in the past and only now dare to speak up. It's bound to happen, even if it is true...
  - Mz 16y ago
    My experience with people is that a strong personality trait tends to influence all details of how they live their lives, not just what kind of work they do. Someone willing to take on the American government because of the strength of his convictions is someone I would say has an extremely strong personality trait. Funny, though not really unexpected, that you would focus on that one remark when most of my post was basically sympathetic and outlined facts concerning how difficult it is to determine these things, even for the people involved, much less outsiders who weren't there when whatever happened, happened.
pointillistic 16y ago
If the CIA wants to get you, they will when you least expect it. Note the case Viktor Bout who was set up in a sting in Thailand. And even though most certainly Viktor Bout was working on behalf of the Russian government, he crossed the line by supplying arms to Afghanistan. And now he is literally behind bars: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/world/asia/21thai.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/world/asia/21thai.html
- sometimes 16y ago
  Is it conceivable an organization like the CIA has deeply 'undercover' operatives, who are living in foreign countries, as citizens of those countries, working as teachers, doctors, milkmen, etc., but who could be pressed into service when circumstances required?
- pauldelany 16y ago
  True. If, however, this is indeed a smear campaign - think about what options are open that wouldn't make him a free-speech (or 'whatever') martyr - extradition / assassination would have that effect - this wouldn't. Judgement needs to be reserved (as in all such cases of rape accusation) until the facts are in. The facts, however, may not be in for a very long time (months, maybe a year). In the meantime, the media is now free to start every news update on Wikileaks / Assange with 'Julian Assange, founder of Wikileaks, and accused of rape in Sweden...'.
lhnz 16y ago
Irregardless of whether it is false or true, this is clearly a smear due to the timing and media involvement.
Hagelin 16y ago
It’s interesting that Assagne dismisses Expressen as a ”tabloid” when he has signed up to be a columnist for their main competitor Aftonbladet. While I don’t read either of them and would agree with the labeling, both papers also do a great deal of real investigative journalism (Expressen being right-wing and Aftonbladet left-wing, and this being Sweden ”left-wing" and ”right-wing" are both a great deal to the left of the american right-wing).
jlgosse 16y ago
Well, he has gotten away with some seriously illegal and ridiculous shit with Wikileaks in the US, so maybe he thinks that he is REALLY above the law now that he's in Sweden. This guy seems like a real creep to me anyway, and honestly I don't think Wikileaks has done much good in releasing all of these confidential documents. I mean, all he has done is try to turn the American people against their government, on top of endangering them at the same time by releasing CONFIDENTIAL documents to the wrong people. In my opinion, this guy deserves to be locked up, even if it has nothing to do with this alleged "smear campaign".
- jacquesm 16y ago
  > In my opinion, this guy deserves to be locked up, even if it has nothing to do with this alleged "smear campaign". I think that if this is a smear campaign that is exactly the sentiment that it was aiming for.
  - Ardit20 16y ago
    He had that sentiment already which is encouraging.
- lhnz 16y ago
  What he did was illegal?
chegra 16y ago
I think he did have sex with those women. I think it was consent. The women realize they can make money out of this and charge him with rape. No government plots. This I think this is the most likely scenario. Reference: Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryan, Mike Tyson.
- jacquesm 16y ago
  Sweden is not the United States, you can't make money out of a rape case there in the same way. Typically victim compensation is orders of magnitude lower than in the states. Also Europeans are not as litigious as Americans are in situations like this. Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryan, Mike Tyson are all American cases and have very little if any bearing on this. If he did have sex with those women and it was consensual then he has a real problem on his hands.
  - chegra 16y ago
    Well talking from what I know of cases involving celebs and being accused of rape, this seems most likely. Yes it is an interesting situation if he did have consensual sex with those women.
jimrandomh 16y ago
To all those wondering why he was not framed for possessing child pornography instead, the answer is simple. In order to "catch" him with CP, it would have to be unencrypted. And anyone can see that the only plausible explanation for unencrypted child pornography in the possession of someone as paranoid and encryption-savvy as Assange, is that it was planted there deliberately.
w1ntermute 16y ago
This could just be a stunt pulled by the tabloid that reported it: Assange said "Jag har inte blivit kontaktad av polisen."[0] Translates from Swedish as "I have not been contacted by the police." 0: http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/anklagelserna-skakar-wikileaks-1.1157157 http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/anklagelserna-skakar-wikile...
- Hagelin 16y ago
  Although the arrest warrant has now been withdrawn: "The warrant was issued late on Friday, said Karin Rosander, communications head at Sweden's prosecutors' office. Swedish police have been trying to contact Mr Assange, but have not yet been able to, she told the BBC.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11047025 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11047025 The initial article from the ”tabloid” also contained quotes from a prosecutor confirming the story.
confuzatron 16y ago
I'm really gobsmacked by the amount of fevered bullshit conspiracy-theorising being spouted by the vast majority of folk on this page! You should be ashamed of yourselves. Fucking laughable. Down-vote away.
cleo 16y ago
Perhaps the ladies were dumped and got pissed, or changed their mind a bit into the act, or perhaps Julian is not quite familiar with the expectations of a Swedish woman in bed heheh we will defend our female rights and expectations!). When the ladies happened to meet (quite interestingly) after a lecture by Julian, they changed information and decided to go to the police. They only gave info and the police decided to make a case (the police are more aware than Julian about correctness with feminist and human values at this point in Swedish rape case history)..then one thing led to the other. The Pentagon is not amused. This "untouchable" guy keeps farting on their faces for years, then they're accused of doing a really ridiculous framing job.
cleo 16y ago
Nothing like bad publicity...Julian soon to be more famous than MJ. Nothing like news with entertainment value! Add to this a weird but convincing sex appeal..

79 points by shrikant 16y ago

Here is the Google translate link for the original article in Swedish. http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&act=url&u=http://www.expressen.se/Nyheter/1.2104976/wikileaks-grundare-anhallen-for-valdtakt&sl=sv&tl=en http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&h...

jgrahamc 16y ago

Yeah, could be a smear. Could also be true. Let's not have senstional titles on HN.

jacquesm 16y ago
Assange is more than likely aware that he is a 'target of opportunity' to many institutions, which would make him very circumspect about doing stuff that could endanger either his reputation or the reputation of wikileaks. The timing of this is just too convenient to ignore. For now, until there is some hard evidence I'm in the 'smear' corner. But I still agree with you about the title, that's an opinion.
- todayiamme 16y ago
  >>>would make him very circumspect about doing stuff that could endanger either his reputation or the reputation of wikileaks.<<< Exactly. He is just too smart and just too obsessed about the cause to do something as stupid as that. Let's assume he did it once in a fit of mental incapacitation under the pressure, but then he walks out and does it again a few days later in another town? Even the average wannabe Criminal Joe would lie low for a while unless he was on a Bonnie-&-Clyde-esque rampage, which is a bit of a stretch to imagine with him. I am willing to bet that he has been through far worse strain in the process of fighting against the Australian govt. for his son (see: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_khatchadourian?currentPage=all http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/06/07/100607fa_fact_...). It's unlikely that this would be the straw that broke the camel's back. Distantly possible, yes. Likely. No.
  - wallflower 16y ago
    That New Yorker article linked above was fantastic. Who is he? How did WikiLeaks arise? Julian did not come out of nowhere, he's always been somewhere. > Soon enough, Assange must confront the paradox of his creation: the thing that he seems to detest most—power without accountability—is encoded in the site’s DNA, and will only become more pronounced as WikiLeaks evolves into a real institution.
- rue 16y ago
  "Clinton/Hurd/Any number of politicians/civil servants/CEOs is more than likely aware that he is a 'target of opportunity' to many institutions, which would make him very circumspect about doing stuff that could endanger either his reputation or the reputation of <whatever>."
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    I see that sort of comment trotted out here frequently, but Clinton/Hurd/and any number of politicians/civil servants and CEOS were not about to release a massive set of secret documents. The timing is just too convenient. Assange would have to have reasoned that a charge against him at this point in time would be so unbelievable that he could get away with this. And that is something that I find unbelievable. Evidence. Not just 'a charge'. So, in the case of Clinton, a dress, in the case of Hurd falsified expense reports.
    - rue 16y ago
      No, they were about to work on the budget, vote on some important issue, a big merger, celebrate their anniversary, about to have a child... I appreciate that the mind of a philanderer let alone a rapist is a bit alien, but you must understand that the decisions are not entirely rational. As I state above, I find the charges suspect but "he would have known better" is not a convincing counterargument.
      - todayiamme 16y ago
        That's the thing you see. This man does not know better! If he knew better he would have been running a startup and laughing his way to the bank. This man is obsessed with one idea. Freedom. Or, his version of it and such people are really really unlikely to burn up their cause for something like this. This is a man who spent nights awake working on a cryptographic framework for his baby. This is a man who spent months trying to decrypt files while on the run. This is a man who hardly lives a life of luxury and spends almost every second of his time towards his cause. Do you think that he is rational enough to do anything else? On the other hand, what does the USA have to lose in terms of PR? They're one of the most powerful countries in the world and they can call the shots for now, and unfortunately people know that. The shame of losing their secrets on the other hand... I really wouldn't be surprised that the women would have been chosen for some sexual history with him or something if possible. It's a longshot, but this will become a trial by media. A blot no matter how small will overshadow the leaking of the documents, and the know that. Why? Because it makes for a better story. Think about it. Would you rather see an hour long TV special about 16000 leaked war logs and their statistical correlations to war time deaths? As well as strategic failures that might get a bit dry? Or, the story of an outlaw on the run :flash picture: Out for a cause :cue music: with a dark twist? Did he or did he not? With an exclusive panel to debate it. I think that's your answer right there. Most people don't give a damn and that blot will permeate through and cloud their vision of what's going to follow, and it's not like they were eagerly awaiting it in the first place.
- mseebach 16y ago
  There's an option more that isn't smear: that the accusations are real, but that he's innocent. Accused of != guilty of
- ErrantX 16y ago
  One thing i have learned in my job is this; generally coincidences happen all the time. The real conspiracies etc. Are much much more infrequent. Occams razor
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    Even the paranoid have enemies. And Assange has more enemies than most, both corporate and governmental.
  - varjag 16y ago
    Well, keep in mind though that being a recognized champion in some field does not guarantee deep virtue of character. Remember Charles Lindbergh, the praised aviator, his boy killed by kidnappers? Same Lindy who turned a fan of eugenics and loudmouthed Nazi supporter. Or as more recent example, Hans Reiser? Am sure that hurt to a lot of fellows here. Let's just reserve our judgement until we get more facts.

jacquesm 16y ago

How convenient. Translation of this article in nu.nl: http://www.nu.nl/tech/2316742/voorman-wikileaks-gezocht-verkrachting.html http://www.nu.nl/tech/2316742/voorman-wikileaks-gezocht-verk... STOCKHOLM - Julian Assange, the leader of whistleblower website wikileaks is since Friday even in Sweden a fugitive in two rape caes. This has been reported by the public prosecutor on Saturday morning according to the Swedish media. Two women, aged twenty and thirty have gone to the police on Friday evening to relate their stories. Against the one Assange is reported to have used sexual violence last weekend in the South of Sweden, the other was reportedly raped on Tuesday morning in the nearby town of Enköping. According to the justice ministry in Stockholm the reports by the women contain enough substance to issue a warrant. For the moment it is unclear where Julian Assange is right now. Wikileaks, a website that is running on computers in a safe house in Solna near Stockholm, was recently in the news. The whistleblowers site published tens of thousands of pages of secret American military documents about the war in Afghanistan. -- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/7957665/Wikileaks-founder-Julian-Assange-facing-arrest-over-rape-claim.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/7957665/Wiki... http://twitter.com/wikileaks http://twitter.com/wikileaks "Julian Assange: the charges are without basis and their issue at this moment is deeply disturbing."

mwg 16y ago

Let's hope we remember innocence until proven guilty. The timing is suspect though.

hermanthegerman 16y ago
Of course if you want a smear campaign, you choose a charge that ensures that the innocence before proven guilty principle is immediately dropped. I wonder why it's not child pornography, that would allow the authorities to go after every data system he ever touched, and it's way easier to make up stuff.
- shrikant 16y ago
  Yep, surprised that it's not child porn. Wikileaks hosts quite a lot of pointers to child porn resources in the form of country-wise website banlists.
  - mwg 16y ago
    There is a bunch of CIA guys going "Damnit." right now.
- notahacker 16y ago
  Child pornography would certainly be a far more effective smear charge if you wanted to discredit the movement and not just the individual behind it.

RyanGWU82 16y ago

Smear campaign? Only according to the accused rapist. Scenario 1: Two Swedish women really are pressing charges against Mr. Assange. Scenario 2: The U.S. Pentagon is so upset by Wikileaks that they've convinced a Swedish prosecutor to file baseless rape charges, without actual victims, against the Wikileaks spokesman. The simplest explanation is the most likely.

jacquesm 16y ago
Scenario 1a, two Swedish women get a bunch of cash in return for filing a bogus charge of rape (edit: which is just as hard to prove as it is to disprove, causing a lot of smoke absent any fire at a time when wikileaks needs to be seen as 'clean' and on the moral high ground). It's not as if governments haven't been doing shit like this for ages. Indeed, the simplest explanation is the most likely. Until this hit the wires I figured Assange is just a bit too paranoid, this charge is so over the top that I'm no longer convinced he's paranoid but that he was right all along. After all, not one but two rape cases out of the blue reported by two women that know each other just when wikileaks is about to release a bunch of incriminating material after refusing to budge under pressure? It's technically possible, but that's the only thing this charge has going for it at this point in time, evidence is what it is all about.
- shrikant 16y ago
  Indeed. I was always curious - if the RIAA/MPAA could flex international muscle to get ThePirateBay raided, why not the Pentagon/CIA?
  - jarin 16y ago
    I'm more scared of the RIAA than I am of the CIA.
    - shrikant 16y ago
      Well yeah, the chances of you having done something that would piss off the RIAA are way more than having done something that the CIA would frown at :)

kilian 16y ago

Well, that certainly sounds convenient at the very least. Two women in two towns, with Assange charged in absentia. Of course it could be true, but somehow that doesn't seem the most reasonable explanation.

ErrantX 16y ago

I reckon this is a Wikileaks "cookup" to prove how hounded and persecuted they are. But then, what do I know. I don't think we can jump to any conclusions yet Edit: for the down voters, thie point being made is - we have no idea of thetruth, take care speculating. Grr

tome 16y ago
I don't know why you got downvoted for this. Many seem to be happy with the idea that an unfriendly government paid these women to smear Assange's name. It seems to me equally credible that Assange or a friend set up these false allegations, which once easily dismissed, will indeed show the world how "persecuted" Wikileaks is.
- ErrantX 16y ago
  Yes, the point wasn't so much i think that's the case - it was just to show how, hours after this has occured, we can hardly figure out the truth. I honestly expected better of hn :-(
  - tome 16y ago
    Given the amount of sympathy these charges have garnered for Assange, it seems he'd have been quite smart if he'd chosen to pay these women to make false claims against him.
    - jacquesm 16y ago
      Yes, but if that would come out as the truth he's really shot himself in the foot. He might as well pack up then, after that nobody is ever going to believe him. Scenario 16: Some women get paid to make eyes at Assange, he falls for it, they have sex, they go and accuse him of rape. Then hope he pulls a Clinton and ends up having to define the meaning of 'is'. If I was Julian Assange at this point I'd blow the whole thing wide open and document each and every little bit of what happened if anything, even if it makes him look less saintly. That's the best defense against a smear campaign, if anything at all happened he'll look a lot worse if he tries to cover it up. And he may have to step down from Wikileaks pending the investigation, which is another easy win for the opposition, it would be the prudent thing to do.

aw3c2 16y ago

The smart wikileaks-supporting and not-believing cyber warrior would not talk about it. Even by criticising like this, you are giving attention and spread the accusations.

jacquesm 16y ago
That's the cowards way out, not the smart way out. It's all over the news, from China to the Netherlands and further. The smart wikileaks supporting and skeptical cyber warrior would do best to reserve judgement but to show that there is a reason why there is probably more than meets the eye here.
- aw3c2 16y ago
  I missed that this was everywhere already.

PassTheAmmo 16y ago

The Local usually is the best source for Swedish news in English. http://www.thelocal.se/28496/20100821/ http://www.thelocal.se/28496/20100821/ Isn't wikileaks hosted in Sweden btw? I don't think it would be affected, but still a thing to keep in mind.

rue 16y ago

One cannot really make the judgment on this being a "smear" or not at this point: to include it in the title is irresponsible at best. The circumstances seem a bit odd (two assaults so close to eachother without a previous history) which could suggest framing either by an external entity or the women involved. According to http://expressen.se http://expressen.se, the women apparently do know eachother and have at some point been reluctant to co-operate with the investigators expressing either "being scared to death" or "being in fear for their lives" because of Assange's high status (the meaning being a bit unclear from the context). Still, the accusations are serious and need to be investigated - which should have happened without publicity but that tends to be utopic when a public figure is concerned.

effn 16y ago
Sorry, but "being scared to death" and "being in fear for their lives" are your words, and has not appeared in any news reports so far. The Swedish word "livrädd" just means "terrified", not that you are in fear for your life.
- rue 16y ago
  That is what I intended to convey with "scared to death" which in English is used colloquially to mean "terrified". I appreciate that translation is likely the intended meaning. I gave both translations because the term used was "livrädd", not merely "rädd". This could be an intentional obfuscation of the sentiment behind the words - thus, it could be read to state they said they were "scared to death" (or "terrified" if you prefer) or actually in fear for their lives. Implications with plausible deniability.
elmindreda 16y ago
The Swedish translates more closely as his position of power, not high status.

DanielBMarkham 16y ago

I would caution commentators not to make false dichotomies here. It is not necessarily a choice between Assange committing a crime and Assange being framed. Both may be true. Neither may be true. I understand that this fits a narrative, and perhaps it turns out he was framed. Or perhaps it turns out he is has criminal tendencies and the west used those tendencies to frame him. Or he's innocent. Or he's innocent and nobody framed him. Simply because it fits easily into a narrative does not mean that the most likely scenario is the narrative. You could make a case that having a criminal trial would be a terrible thing for intelligence agencies. It'd just give him a bigger microphone and also put the agencies at risk of being discovered. In fact, if it is a setup, it's one of the most bone-headed setups I've ever seen. Better to just kill him. If this is discovered as a frame-job, it'd be a god-awful PR disaster. The risks don't merit the rewards.

jacquesm 16y ago
> If this is discovered as a frame-job, it'd be a god-awful PR disaster. The risks don't merit the rewards. That's the strongest argument against this being a frame-up so far. On the other hand breaking in to the Democratic party's offices wasn't very smart either and that definitely happened, and I can think of a few more cases like that. Government agencies are definitely not above doing really stupid things that turn in to PR disasters.
- DanielBMarkham 16y ago
  Which is the strongest counter-argument. :) But really, trying to frame some guy that a hundred-million people think is some super-hero? It's crazy. They certainly may be doing it, but it's really beyond-stupid crazy. I'd just shoot him. Easy enough to whack somebody, and without evidence people can spend their lifetimes pointing fingers at each other. Might even make a great series of books and a movie. But with real, live people making criminal allegations that aren't true? Lots of little loose ends dangling around. Too many. In fact, I'd bet you that even if he was guilty and was not framed, there'll be a series of investigative articles and blogs "proving" he was framed anyway. The narrative is simply too hard to ignore. Which -- if you think about it -- would give him a free hand to commit any crime he wants. After all, no matter what he was accused of, he was framed, right? Welcome to the hall of mirrors.

Daishiman 16y ago

The amount of propagandish trolling in this thread is incredible. It is absolutely clear that this is a smear campaing. C'mon, a man who knows is being watched by intelligence agencies because of the information he divulges, agencies which have covert and public disinformation programs, would actually go ahead and do such criminal behavior? Possible? Perhaps, but absolutely unlikely to the point where the notion is absolutely ridiculous. I'm beginning to wonder how many of the posts claiming that it's a likely possibility are paid shills from the various disinformation services.

jacquesm 16y ago
You're out of line I think. The suggestion that people that have been here for years are paid shills guilty of disinformation is beyond the pale. I agree that this is most likely a smear and at a minimum blown up, but evidence is where it is at and people that defend the 'other side' of the argument (especially ErrantX and DanielBMarkham) are for the most part just playing the devils advocate and cautioning you to think for yourself instead of following the herd.
- Daishiman 16y ago
  General Motors hired prostitutes to solicit Ralph Nader because of his automobile safety activism (from Reddit): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#Automobile_safety_activism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#Automobile_safety_a... Believing that these claims, at this point in the affair, have any serious possibility of being real is to be ignorant of the history of the way power structures way. Discrediting dangerous figures which are too well-known to be dissuaded silently is common to the extreme. And seriously, we're talking about the same power structure that has put dictators and thieves in places throughout the world when it was convenient. A smear campaign is about the least dishonest thing that they could do.
  - jacquesm 16y ago
    What's that got to do with the price of tea in China, that's just handwaving. You accused a bunch of people and now you point outside of HN to bolster your non-existent case. Rubbish. I'm not taking issue with your interpretation of the case against Julian Assange, I'm taking issue with your case of there being paid shills in this thread. Give HN some credit.

flog 16y ago

I suspect WikiLeaks would have a plan in place if Assange was removed. WikiLeaks should live on and continue to do it's work.

joezydeco 16y ago
You mean like that encrypted "Insurance" file that's on there?

Mz 16y ago

FWIW: 1) I've done two college papers on date rape. In most cases, date rape involves alcohol (ie impaired judgment) and bad communication, often due to cross cultural misunderstandings. 2) I read once that if you ask a room full of (American?) women how many of them have been raped, half the hands go up. If you ask them how many of them said "No" and then had sex anyway, 90% of the hands go up. Given that the legal definition of rape hinges on consent, I think it's pretty clear that even women who haven't had completely consenting sex have difficulty figuring out whether or not they were raped. (On the flip side, I think there is a counterargument that sometimes, even when she initially said "no", maybe it wasn't really rape -- which muddies the water even further.) My point: I think genuinely, unquestionably consenting sex is really a quite difficult standard to meet and there are many cases of less than ideal encounters where it ends up being a judgment call on the part of the woman as to a) how she views it in her own mind ("rape" or something else) and b) whether or not to publicly accuse/charge someone. I will toss out the idea that a man who feels not only okay with but morally compelled to publish all kinds of stuff the American government doesn't want published (ie without their consent and over their protests, with consent being the legal lynch-pin for the definition of rape) might well start applying that general thought pattern to other situations. People who are very morally self righteous frequently feel justified in treading on the will and rights of others and then pat themselves on the back for being "heroes". I can imagine someone who feels he knows what is best for others basically telling himself "these two women needed it and I'm just doing what is best for them".

jacquesm 16y ago
Promoting government and corporate transparency is a service to humanity, raping people is a crime. You can't equate the fact that the American government protests about having their secret stuff leaked to 'knowing what's best' for women that don't want sex with you. I'm just waiting for the inevitable groupies that will jump out of the woodwork that they too have been accosted by Assange at some point in the past and only now dare to speak up. It's bound to happen, even if it is true...
- Mz 16y ago
  My experience with people is that a strong personality trait tends to influence all details of how they live their lives, not just what kind of work they do. Someone willing to take on the American government because of the strength of his convictions is someone I would say has an extremely strong personality trait. Funny, though not really unexpected, that you would focus on that one remark when most of my post was basically sympathetic and outlined facts concerning how difficult it is to determine these things, even for the people involved, much less outsiders who weren't there when whatever happened, happened.

pointillistic 16y ago

If the CIA wants to get you, they will when you least expect it. Note the case Viktor Bout who was set up in a sting in Thailand. And even though most certainly Viktor Bout was working on behalf of the Russian government, he crossed the line by supplying arms to Afghanistan. And now he is literally behind bars: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/world/asia/21thai.html http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/world/asia/21thai.html

sometimes 16y ago
Is it conceivable an organization like the CIA has deeply 'undercover' operatives, who are living in foreign countries, as citizens of those countries, working as teachers, doctors, milkmen, etc., but who could be pressed into service when circumstances required?
pauldelany 16y ago
True. If, however, this is indeed a smear campaign - think about what options are open that wouldn't make him a free-speech (or 'whatever') martyr - extradition / assassination would have that effect - this wouldn't. Judgement needs to be reserved (as in all such cases of rape accusation) until the facts are in. The facts, however, may not be in for a very long time (months, maybe a year). In the meantime, the media is now free to start every news update on Wikileaks / Assange with 'Julian Assange, founder of Wikileaks, and accused of rape in Sweden...'.

lhnz 16y ago

Irregardless of whether it is false or true, this is clearly a smear due to the timing and media involvement.

Hagelin 16y ago

It’s interesting that Assagne dismisses Expressen as a ”tabloid” when he has signed up to be a columnist for their main competitor Aftonbladet. While I don’t read either of them and would agree with the labeling, both papers also do a great deal of real investigative journalism (Expressen being right-wing and Aftonbladet left-wing, and this being Sweden ”left-wing" and ”right-wing" are both a great deal to the left of the american right-wing).

jlgosse 16y ago

Well, he has gotten away with some seriously illegal and ridiculous shit with Wikileaks in the US, so maybe he thinks that he is REALLY above the law now that he's in Sweden. This guy seems like a real creep to me anyway, and honestly I don't think Wikileaks has done much good in releasing all of these confidential documents. I mean, all he has done is try to turn the American people against their government, on top of endangering them at the same time by releasing CONFIDENTIAL documents to the wrong people. In my opinion, this guy deserves to be locked up, even if it has nothing to do with this alleged "smear campaign".

jacquesm 16y ago
> In my opinion, this guy deserves to be locked up, even if it has nothing to do with this alleged "smear campaign". I think that if this is a smear campaign that is exactly the sentiment that it was aiming for.
- Ardit20 16y ago
  He had that sentiment already which is encouraging.
lhnz 16y ago
What he did was illegal?

chegra 16y ago

I think he did have sex with those women. I think it was consent. The women realize they can make money out of this and charge him with rape. No government plots. This I think this is the most likely scenario. Reference: Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryan, Mike Tyson.

jacquesm 16y ago
Sweden is not the United States, you can't make money out of a rape case there in the same way. Typically victim compensation is orders of magnitude lower than in the states. Also Europeans are not as litigious as Americans are in situations like this. Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryan, Mike Tyson are all American cases and have very little if any bearing on this. If he did have sex with those women and it was consensual then he has a real problem on his hands.
- chegra 16y ago
  Well talking from what I know of cases involving celebs and being accused of rape, this seems most likely. Yes it is an interesting situation if he did have consensual sex with those women.

jimrandomh 16y ago

To all those wondering why he was not framed for possessing child pornography instead, the answer is simple. In order to "catch" him with CP, it would have to be unencrypted. And anyone can see that the only plausible explanation for unencrypted child pornography in the possession of someone as paranoid and encryption-savvy as Assange, is that it was planted there deliberately.

w1ntermute 16y ago

This could just be a stunt pulled by the tabloid that reported it: Assange said "Jag har inte blivit kontaktad av polisen."[0] Translates from Swedish as "I have not been contacted by the police." 0: http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/anklagelserna-skakar-wikileaks-1.1157157 http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/anklagelserna-skakar-wikile...

Hagelin 16y ago
Although the arrest warrant has now been withdrawn: "The warrant was issued late on Friday, said Karin Rosander, communications head at Sweden's prosecutors' office. Swedish police have been trying to contact Mr Assange, but have not yet been able to, she told the BBC.” http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11047025 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11047025 The initial article from the ”tabloid” also contained quotes from a prosecutor confirming the story.

confuzatron 16y ago

I'm really gobsmacked by the amount of fevered bullshit conspiracy-theorising being spouted by the vast majority of folk on this page! You should be ashamed of yourselves. Fucking laughable. Down-vote away.

cleo 16y ago

Perhaps the ladies were dumped and got pissed, or changed their mind a bit into the act, or perhaps Julian is not quite familiar with the expectations of a Swedish woman in bed heheh we will defend our female rights and expectations!). When the ladies happened to meet (quite interestingly) after a lecture by Julian, they changed information and decided to go to the police. They only gave info and the police decided to make a case (the police are more aware than Julian about correctness with feminist and human values at this point in Swedish rape case history)..then one thing led to the other. The Pentagon is not amused. This "untouchable" guy keeps farting on their faces for years, then they're accused of doing a really ridiculous framing job.

cleo 16y ago

Nothing like bad publicity...Julian soon to be more famous than MJ. Nothing like news with entertainment value! Add to this a weird but convincing sex appeal..