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If history is any judge, as I recall from several recent reads on NSA post-Snowden / Stuxnet etc: Even the most outspoken critic of the NSA (I want to say it wa

If history is any judge, as I recall from several recent reads on NSA post-Snowden / Stuxnet etc: Even the most outspoken critic of the NSA (I want to say it was a State attorney or something) was quick to reverse his critiques when he was granted control of an oversight investigation - he was actually shocked at the amount of integrity and openness that he found WITHIN the organization. Doesn't mean it is visible to others. I'll try to find the references.

jackhack 9y ago
I wonder how much blackmail material he was shown just before he dramatically reversed his opinion. I am very cynical. But then a long chain of recorded history rewards my point of view.
- not_kurt_godel 9y ago
  I wonder how many PR bots the NSA has on sites like Hacker News.
  - moftz 9y ago
    They are a government agency with a nearly endless supply of money granted to them by Congress every year without fail. They don't need to do PR for anyone except to gain more employees.
    - not_kurt_godel 9y ago
      > They don't need to do PR for anyone except to gain more employees. Which is exactly why I implied they would be primarily doing PR on sites with high concentrations of people with the skillsets they need...such as Hacker News. This would help them both directly - individuals seeing good PR and thinking "hey, I could work there" - and indirectly by way of combating the general negative perceptions of the NSA in the tech community since the Snowden leaks.
    - mistermann 9y ago
      Not now, but buying a little insurance on that seems prudent.
    - therealdrag0 9y ago
      There was an article recently on HN about how they're losing talent.
    - musage 9y ago
      They don't need to be crooks, either, doesn't seem to stop them. They don't need to come up with childish logos combined with super cereal latin text, but they're still doing it; something like "Total Information Awareness" isn't the expression of a need, it's the symptom of serious issues. If they knew what they needed they wouldn't be doing what they're doing, and wouldn't need to circle the wagons of the "Intelligence Community" for emotional support. Do companies that pollute the environment and obsess about environmental activists so much that their undercover people outnumber the undercover agents of intelligence agencies NEED to be so very pathetic? I'd say they "just" need to stop whatever they think they are doing and be grateful towards those giving them a hint, but nope -- they can't eat what's on their plate, so they shit in our food. And anyone even dreaming of suggesting putting first things first probably wouldn't make it past apprentice in most such orgs.
- PopsiclePete 9y ago
  After Trump won, I desperately wanted the "grassy knoll video" and "shadow government" stuff to actually be real. Maybe they've just been really effective at making people think that they're all-powerful entities that make people disappear on a whim.
- mvkel 9y ago
  You should really meet someone who works at NSA. Snowden worked there before he left. It’s generally a group of ridiculously smart people. Policy is where stuff gets bungled.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
atonse 9y ago
But this doesn't change the fact that the Snowden revelations were just as shocking to many members of Congress. Although who knows, they might also be feigning surprise. But after a certain point, if you think everyone is lying about everything, then what kind of existence is that?
- dfsegoat 9y ago
  That is called existence in the world of espionage / counter-espionage. It doesn't really track with the existence of everyday people, or legislative bodies.
  - atonse 9y ago
    It should with legislative bodies because they have direct oversight.
- randcraw 9y ago
  It's unlikely they were feigning. Even the members of the house & senate intelligence committees do not get thorough and uniform access to intel. In the past, those members of the political party that is out of power have been routinely excluded from agency briefings and documents. In practice, the fraction of these two committees that is well informed about the agency's current activities is likely to be very small. And after the undeniable perjured testimony of Clapper before congress denying all NSA spying on civilians, and subsequent failure by Justice to prosecute or even investigate Clapper et al, the likelihood that anyone will know what NSA or CIA actually does (unless they live at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, that is) is effectively nil.
  - vibrio 9y ago
    which is even more concerning considering reports of how the current resident of 1600 assesses intelligence.
  - cmurf 9y ago
    This is silly. The DNI takes an oath to keep state secrets a secret. He then takes an oath to tell the truth to Congress in an open session, which is itself an oxymoron when discussing a huge bulk of the national intelligence apparatus because we demand so much secrecy around every damn thing. How do you have an open session and not pretty much immediately invite some sort oath violation? It's the dumbest fucking thing in the first place but we like to play pretend to be open while simultaneously having metric f tons of state secrets. There's a very long list of people who have appeared before Congress and lied under oath, and not referred for undeniable perjury charges. And they do not have the president of the United States giving them a defacto pass by saying Clapper was caught between a rock and a hard place. There is no f'n goddamn way Clapper was ever going to be charged with perjury. It's the dumbest line of logic, you need to go backwards in time to have this argument. It has nothing to do with Clapper. Go point a finger at people like Cheney and Feinstein if you want to whine about the massively neurotic security state. And the idea you're going to find out jack shit about what's going on at CIA or NSA by charging Clapper with perjury is pure stupidity. If you want to know what happens at NSA and CIA, you need a society, in large numbers, who aren't paranoid and servile, and won't elect paranoid and servile representatives, who then accept the creation of a paranoid control freak surveillance state. We have what we have as a reflection of who we are, in particular those who do not participate. That's exactly how you get this kind of result.

jackhack 9y ago

I wonder how much blackmail material he was shown just before he dramatically reversed his opinion. I am very cynical. But then a long chain of recorded history rewards my point of view.

not_kurt_godel 9y ago
I wonder how many PR bots the NSA has on sites like Hacker News.
- moftz 9y ago
  They are a government agency with a nearly endless supply of money granted to them by Congress every year without fail. They don't need to do PR for anyone except to gain more employees.
  - not_kurt_godel 9y ago
    > They don't need to do PR for anyone except to gain more employees. Which is exactly why I implied they would be primarily doing PR on sites with high concentrations of people with the skillsets they need...such as Hacker News. This would help them both directly - individuals seeing good PR and thinking "hey, I could work there" - and indirectly by way of combating the general negative perceptions of the NSA in the tech community since the Snowden leaks.
  - mistermann 9y ago
    Not now, but buying a little insurance on that seems prudent.
  - therealdrag0 9y ago
    There was an article recently on HN about how they're losing talent.
  - musage 9y ago
    They don't need to be crooks, either, doesn't seem to stop them. They don't need to come up with childish logos combined with super cereal latin text, but they're still doing it; something like "Total Information Awareness" isn't the expression of a need, it's the symptom of serious issues. If they knew what they needed they wouldn't be doing what they're doing, and wouldn't need to circle the wagons of the "Intelligence Community" for emotional support. Do companies that pollute the environment and obsess about environmental activists so much that their undercover people outnumber the undercover agents of intelligence agencies NEED to be so very pathetic? I'd say they "just" need to stop whatever they think they are doing and be grateful towards those giving them a hint, but nope -- they can't eat what's on their plate, so they shit in our food. And anyone even dreaming of suggesting putting first things first probably wouldn't make it past apprentice in most such orgs.
PopsiclePete 9y ago
After Trump won, I desperately wanted the "grassy knoll video" and "shadow government" stuff to actually be real. Maybe they've just been really effective at making people think that they're all-powerful entities that make people disappear on a whim.
mvkel 9y ago
You should really meet someone who works at NSA. Snowden worked there before he left. It’s generally a group of ridiculously smart people. Policy is where stuff gets bungled.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

atonse 9y ago

But this doesn't change the fact that the Snowden revelations were just as shocking to many members of Congress. Although who knows, they might also be feigning surprise. But after a certain point, if you think everyone is lying about everything, then what kind of existence is that?

dfsegoat 9y ago
That is called existence in the world of espionage / counter-espionage. It doesn't really track with the existence of everyday people, or legislative bodies.
- atonse 9y ago
  It should with legislative bodies because they have direct oversight.
randcraw 9y ago
It's unlikely they were feigning. Even the members of the house & senate intelligence committees do not get thorough and uniform access to intel. In the past, those members of the political party that is out of power have been routinely excluded from agency briefings and documents. In practice, the fraction of these two committees that is well informed about the agency's current activities is likely to be very small. And after the undeniable perjured testimony of Clapper before congress denying all NSA spying on civilians, and subsequent failure by Justice to prosecute or even investigate Clapper et al, the likelihood that anyone will know what NSA or CIA actually does (unless they live at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, that is) is effectively nil.
- vibrio 9y ago
  which is even more concerning considering reports of how the current resident of 1600 assesses intelligence.
- cmurf 9y ago
  This is silly. The DNI takes an oath to keep state secrets a secret. He then takes an oath to tell the truth to Congress in an open session, which is itself an oxymoron when discussing a huge bulk of the national intelligence apparatus because we demand so much secrecy around every damn thing. How do you have an open session and not pretty much immediately invite some sort oath violation? It's the dumbest fucking thing in the first place but we like to play pretend to be open while simultaneously having metric f tons of state secrets. There's a very long list of people who have appeared before Congress and lied under oath, and not referred for undeniable perjury charges. And they do not have the president of the United States giving them a defacto pass by saying Clapper was caught between a rock and a hard place. There is no f'n goddamn way Clapper was ever going to be charged with perjury. It's the dumbest line of logic, you need to go backwards in time to have this argument. It has nothing to do with Clapper. Go point a finger at people like Cheney and Feinstein if you want to whine about the massively neurotic security state. And the idea you're going to find out jack shit about what's going on at CIA or NSA by charging Clapper with perjury is pure stupidity. If you want to know what happens at NSA and CIA, you need a society, in large numbers, who aren't paranoid and servile, and won't elect paranoid and servile representatives, who then accept the creation of a paranoid control freak surveillance state. We have what we have as a reflection of who we are, in particular those who do not participate. That's exactly how you get this kind of result.