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I once did a quick "anthropological" study with In-N-Out employees (read: fancyspeak for sitting down and talking to them about their job), I was quite surprise

I once did a quick "anthropological" study with In-N-Out employees (read: fancyspeak for sitting down and talking to them about their job), I was quite surprised. Most of them were very happy with their jobs, not just happy with pay and benefits and so on, but happy to work there. They found it a very welcoming and friendly work environment, where people were rewarded for initiative and trying to improve things. Most of them didn't see themselves leaving the company any time soon, unless it was for a different job type (such as moving to an office job after finishing school). It was a very good lesson on how job satisfaction doesn't need fancy cafés, ball pits and slides. PS: Those were just my impressions from talking to a limited number of employees. Endless numbers of caveats apply.

Rapzid 9y ago
I used to work at top graded Mackers (Mcdonald's reviews their stores and grades them) with a really awesome store manager and some great (took their jobs and quality very seriously) managers. The experience was great and really enjoyable. Unfortunately, the pay was just above minimum wage and the long term prospects were terrible. I can totally see how these guys/gals would be loyal and sticky if taken care of. Hard work you can leave at the door is very satisfying if you don't feel like you're going nowhere... Incidentally the 3x average sounds almost spot on; I believe our store manager was making about 70k and he was highly valued as a store "fixer" by the chain owner in the Dallas area.
- throwawayjava 9y ago
  > I believe our store manager was making about 70k and he was highly valued as a store "fixer" by the chain owner in the Dallas area. A nice reminder about the difference in meanings when the owner says "value" and when the employee says "value"
  - b4lancesh33t 9y ago
    I don't understand what criticism you're trying to level here. Would you please expand?
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - seanp2k2 9y ago
      I'm guessing that the sentiment here is that the employee getting paid 70K at McD is adding much more value than 70K + other costs, especially if they're single-highhandedly responsible for saving entire locations.
- chiph 9y ago
  The McD's near me is paying new hires $11/hr. But Chick-fil-A is paying $13/hr, so they have a waiting list to work there.
  - matthew349hall 9y ago
    lol in Ohio CFA starts at 9.00 per hour which is great for here.
e40 9y ago
I've never done that, but it was clear from observation that it was true. Here's what amazes me, that people like Bezos exist. I mean, treating people that work at Amazon (especially the warehouses!) like the employees of I-N-O, Amazon could be an even more valuable company. Instead of being an employer of last resort (I would take any job before I worked there), they could be the "it" place to work. Instead, Bezos allows people to be treated like complete shit.
- pinewurst 9y ago
  It's not "allows" - it's a top down attitude that everyone is expendable, dispensible and easily replaced by someone hungrier.
  - taneq 9y ago
    Worse, it's that human employees are just cost-effective robotic manipulators. Amazon's fulfillment centers are literal physical implementations of their Mechanical Turk.
    - krapp 9y ago
      Yes, but at least it doesn't pay as bad as MTurk. It would if Amazon could get away with it, though.
- Rapzid 9y ago
  Unfortunately it's a different ballgame with warehouse work like at AMZ. There is no customer facing service aspect, and very little quality difference between employees. What quality concerns there are can probably be traced back to an individual employee very easily; returns due to poor packaging or wrong item can easily be pinned on the culprit. It's unfortunate, but not all manual/hard jobs are valued equally and often because they are simply not of equal value. Item pickers are going to eventually go the way of cotton pickers in developed countries. One of my best friends works for a startup developing AI controlled robotic pickers. There is a ways to go and it'll start with human augmented AI's but eventually AI's will be picking, sorting, and packing everything.
stcredzero 9y ago
Given that good management can have such a dramatic effect on the efficiency of this style of burger joint, this may well be a good investment for the company. I remember once going into a McDonald's, and seeing an absolutely de-optimized crew. Basically, they seemed to be trying to all use the same station at the same time, trying to maximize the length of the queue formed and minimize throughput. It literally took me 10 minutes to get a burger. Of course, this also applies to the workers under the manager as well. My wife drives me crazy in this way. There are some people who will interact in a group by modeling the future pathways, tasks, and schedule of everyone around them, then navigate those models to avoid conflict in time and space. Then there are some people who can't. As far as I can tell, my wife doesn't have a fine-grained enough internal sense of time to be able to do that. I almost stopped dating her early on, because she once kept me waiting 45 minutes in front of the locked door of her apartment, because she was having a conversation with her CEO. I also recall a recent instance cooking with her in the kitchen, and was rinsing 3 pieces of raw meat (1) -- she interrupted me between piece 2 and piece 3 and left me hanging there with contaminated hands while she washed/processed an entire leek. I also remember a band-mate of mine who couldn't "add time" in her head when travelling to gigs, so would always be late. (I know this is the specific case from conversations while planning to drive somewhere.) It was a very good lesson on how job satisfaction doesn't need fancy cafés, ball pits and slides. I think one of the best possible rewards is "good working." When people really mesh, there can even be a high. (1 - Which you're not supposed to do in the US, but I do because my wife grew up in China, so she has a much greater distrust of commercial food processing.)
- paulie_a 9y ago
  How does she feel about you ranting about her publicly on the internet?
  - taway_1212 9y ago
    To be fair, posting on HN under a nickname is closer to writing an anonymous rant on say a toilet wall. I wouldn’t say he’s doing it “publicly”.
- purple-again 9y ago
sjg007 9y ago
I've never been disappointed with the food at In&Out ever. Maybe with a lag in cleanliness of tables or bathrooms (but that's been rare). McDonald's the food is consistently bad that I'm surprised when it is good.m It's either been too cold, mushy, wrong or missing something. This is based on a cross country trip with small kids who optimize on happy meals. Also play centers and room are basically essential for small kids. Makes a world of difference. This and happy meals are the only reasons to go to McDonald's.
- pbhjpbhj 9y ago
  What's good about happy meals. On the rare occasion I succumb to McDo I avoid the happy meals and their call to increased consumerism, it's like buying an advert.
  - lostcolony 9y ago
    OP said they have a kid. A place to stop on long trips, where the kid will be happy to get a kid's meal and go play at the play center, and let the parent(s) have a break to eat in quiet isolation? Totally worth crappy food on occasion.
yeukhon 9y ago
A NYer here. I lived in Cal for a few months. In-n-Out, has been one of my favorite restaurants after just two visit. I mean it. The ingredients are fresh, and I could watch the workers make the burgers. ALL FRESH. Too bad, In-n-Out won't come to NY. It makes sense though.
- mathperson 9y ago
  I think a great part is you can watch someone take a REAL potato with real dirt on it, clean it, cut it up with a massive guillotine thing, insert it into boiling oil, and hand it to you. Beautiful.
  - tcoff91 9y ago
    I love me some in n out burgers but unfortunately their fries, while commendably fresh, aren’t very good. You have about 3 mins to eat them before they become cardboard. There are legitimate culinary reasons to freeze potatoes before frying, it bursts the cell walls which helps to achieve a better fry. As far as west coast burger chains go, The Habit has way better fries. In N Out’s burgers though are so good, double single animal style with peppers is heaven.
    - Domenic_S 9y ago
      Have you tried ordering them well done?
      - tcoff91 9y ago
        Yes, then they are just stiffer and hotter. Well done is better but not great. A fry should be crispy on the outside and fluffy on the inside which is not gonna happen with taking a fresh potato and frying it. Freezing and blanching before hand make for better fries.
        azinman2 9y ago
        Part of the problem is that they cut them into shoestring. But another is that they only fry once -- if they did a second fry they'd be far better. I believe McDonalds and other chains pre-cook their fries before they arrive at the restaurant.
briandear 9y ago
I have gotten that impression from Trader Joe’s people as well.

Rapzid 9y ago

I used to work at top graded Mackers (Mcdonald's reviews their stores and grades them) with a really awesome store manager and some great (took their jobs and quality very seriously) managers. The experience was great and really enjoyable. Unfortunately, the pay was just above minimum wage and the long term prospects were terrible. I can totally see how these guys/gals would be loyal and sticky if taken care of. Hard work you can leave at the door is very satisfying if you don't feel like you're going nowhere... Incidentally the 3x average sounds almost spot on; I believe our store manager was making about 70k and he was highly valued as a store "fixer" by the chain owner in the Dallas area.

throwawayjava 9y ago
> I believe our store manager was making about 70k and he was highly valued as a store "fixer" by the chain owner in the Dallas area. A nice reminder about the difference in meanings when the owner says "value" and when the employee says "value"
- b4lancesh33t 9y ago
  I don't understand what criticism you're trying to level here. Would you please expand?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - seanp2k2 9y ago
    I'm guessing that the sentiment here is that the employee getting paid 70K at McD is adding much more value than 70K + other costs, especially if they're single-highhandedly responsible for saving entire locations.
chiph 9y ago
The McD's near me is paying new hires $11/hr. But Chick-fil-A is paying $13/hr, so they have a waiting list to work there.
- matthew349hall 9y ago
  lol in Ohio CFA starts at 9.00 per hour which is great for here.

e40 9y ago

I've never done that, but it was clear from observation that it was true. Here's what amazes me, that people like Bezos exist. I mean, treating people that work at Amazon (especially the warehouses!) like the employees of I-N-O, Amazon could be an even more valuable company. Instead of being an employer of last resort (I would take any job before I worked there), they could be the "it" place to work. Instead, Bezos allows people to be treated like complete shit.

pinewurst 9y ago
It's not "allows" - it's a top down attitude that everyone is expendable, dispensible and easily replaced by someone hungrier.
- taneq 9y ago
  Worse, it's that human employees are just cost-effective robotic manipulators. Amazon's fulfillment centers are literal physical implementations of their Mechanical Turk.
  - krapp 9y ago
    Yes, but at least it doesn't pay as bad as MTurk. It would if Amazon could get away with it, though.
Rapzid 9y ago
Unfortunately it's a different ballgame with warehouse work like at AMZ. There is no customer facing service aspect, and very little quality difference between employees. What quality concerns there are can probably be traced back to an individual employee very easily; returns due to poor packaging or wrong item can easily be pinned on the culprit. It's unfortunate, but not all manual/hard jobs are valued equally and often because they are simply not of equal value. Item pickers are going to eventually go the way of cotton pickers in developed countries. One of my best friends works for a startup developing AI controlled robotic pickers. There is a ways to go and it'll start with human augmented AI's but eventually AI's will be picking, sorting, and packing everything.

stcredzero 9y ago

Given that good management can have such a dramatic effect on the efficiency of this style of burger joint, this may well be a good investment for the company. I remember once going into a McDonald's, and seeing an absolutely de-optimized crew. Basically, they seemed to be trying to all use the same station at the same time, trying to maximize the length of the queue formed and minimize throughput. It literally took me 10 minutes to get a burger. Of course, this also applies to the workers under the manager as well. My wife drives me crazy in this way. There are some people who will interact in a group by modeling the future pathways, tasks, and schedule of everyone around them, then navigate those models to avoid conflict in time and space. Then there are some people who can't. As far as I can tell, my wife doesn't have a fine-grained enough internal sense of time to be able to do that. I almost stopped dating her early on, because she once kept me waiting 45 minutes in front of the locked door of her apartment, because she was having a conversation with her CEO. I also recall a recent instance cooking with her in the kitchen, and was rinsing 3 pieces of raw meat (1) -- she interrupted me between piece 2 and piece 3 and left me hanging there with contaminated hands while she washed/processed an entire leek. I also remember a band-mate of mine who couldn't "add time" in her head when travelling to gigs, so would always be late. (I know this is the specific case from conversations while planning to drive somewhere.) It was a very good lesson on how job satisfaction doesn't need fancy cafés, ball pits and slides. I think one of the best possible rewards is "good working." When people really mesh, there can even be a high. (1 - Which you're not supposed to do in the US, but I do because my wife grew up in China, so she has a much greater distrust of commercial food processing.)

paulie_a 9y ago
How does she feel about you ranting about her publicly on the internet?
- taway_1212 9y ago
  To be fair, posting on HN under a nickname is closer to writing an anonymous rant on say a toilet wall. I wouldn’t say he’s doing it “publicly”.
purple-again 9y ago

sjg007 9y ago

I've never been disappointed with the food at In&Out ever. Maybe with a lag in cleanliness of tables or bathrooms (but that's been rare). McDonald's the food is consistently bad that I'm surprised when it is good.m It's either been too cold, mushy, wrong or missing something. This is based on a cross country trip with small kids who optimize on happy meals. Also play centers and room are basically essential for small kids. Makes a world of difference. This and happy meals are the only reasons to go to McDonald's.

pbhjpbhj 9y ago
What's good about happy meals. On the rare occasion I succumb to McDo I avoid the happy meals and their call to increased consumerism, it's like buying an advert.
- lostcolony 9y ago
  OP said they have a kid. A place to stop on long trips, where the kid will be happy to get a kid's meal and go play at the play center, and let the parent(s) have a break to eat in quiet isolation? Totally worth crappy food on occasion.

yeukhon 9y ago

A NYer here. I lived in Cal for a few months. In-n-Out, has been one of my favorite restaurants after just two visit. I mean it. The ingredients are fresh, and I could watch the workers make the burgers. ALL FRESH. Too bad, In-n-Out won't come to NY. It makes sense though.

mathperson 9y ago
I think a great part is you can watch someone take a REAL potato with real dirt on it, clean it, cut it up with a massive guillotine thing, insert it into boiling oil, and hand it to you. Beautiful.
- tcoff91 9y ago
  I love me some in n out burgers but unfortunately their fries, while commendably fresh, aren’t very good. You have about 3 mins to eat them before they become cardboard. There are legitimate culinary reasons to freeze potatoes before frying, it bursts the cell walls which helps to achieve a better fry. As far as west coast burger chains go, The Habit has way better fries. In N Out’s burgers though are so good, double single animal style with peppers is heaven.
  - Domenic_S 9y ago
    Have you tried ordering them well done?
    - tcoff91 9y ago
      Yes, then they are just stiffer and hotter. Well done is better but not great. A fry should be crispy on the outside and fluffy on the inside which is not gonna happen with taking a fresh potato and frying it. Freezing and blanching before hand make for better fries.
      - azinman2 9y ago
        Part of the problem is that they cut them into shoestring. But another is that they only fry once -- if they did a second fry they'd be far better. I believe McDonalds and other chains pre-cook their fries before they arrive at the restaurant.

briandear 9y ago

I have gotten that impression from Trader Joe’s people as well.