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Greeks are abandoning cigarettes in record numbers
- davidf18 9y agoUnfortunately, the smoking rates in many US states is high compared with Europe. https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/smoking-adults/?currentTimeframe=0&selectedDistributions=smoking-adults&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Smoking%20Adults%22,%22sort%22:%22desc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/smoking-adults/?cu...
- theparanoid 9y agoThe missing data point is how many Greeks have switched to vaping.
- Iwan-Zotow 9y agoNo, the missing data point is ciggies contraband
- icebraining 9y agoThat would be true if they were measuring sales numbers, but they're asking people if they smoke, which includes those who smoke contraband cigarettes.
- walshemj 9y ago"oh yes I buy smuggled goods" said no one ever to a formal survey.
- icebraining 9y agoWhy would you have to say where you get them at all? It's not like they were asking about an illegal drug. What would be the point of lying about whether you smoke?
- jschwartzi 9y agoThey're not asking where the cigarettes are coming from.
- mabbo 9y agoThe only measure that has ever been shown to work to reduce smoking is to make smoking less affordable. Tax cigarettes and people smoke less. Tax them highly and kids sure can't afford them. It's more politically easy to put money into paying celebrities to beg kids not to smoke, but it's not actually effective. It's just theater so politicians can say they tried. Here, Greece is seeing the affordability fall just because the affordability of everything is falling for them. The result is the same.
- felipemnoa 9y ago>>The only measure that has ever been shown to work to reduce smoking is to make smoking less affordable. Doesn't this just create an illegal distribution network that sells them cheaper?
- phoe-krk 9y agoNowhere to get cheaper tobacco from, nothing to distribute cheaper.
- draw_down 9y agoHow about, I dunno, Turkey?
- johnchristopher 9y agohttp://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/nyregion/tobacco-companies-broke-law-by-selling-untaxed-cigarettes-judge-rules.html http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/nyregion/tobacco-companies... > The city has argued that the availability of cheaper cigarettes is a public health concern because taxes were in part a way to discourage smoking. There's also that story about that manfacturer smuggling cigarettes into a country I can't remember to avoid paying taxes.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- Moru 9y agoYou can always steal them.
- appdrag 9y agoWhen you have to choose between food on the table and cigarettes in the pocket... I guess it's easy to quit smoking...
- sergers 9y agoAs a previous smoker, I could get by without eating much (intake less than 500 calories) Nicotine and carbon monoxide levels settling provides a similar sensation to hunger, that would be satisfied for a short period with a cigarette. You start confusing this with hunger and default to wanting another smoke. I could go 16+ hours without eating anything and thinking I am hungry Also you notice with ex-smokers they tend to gain weight because they are satisfying this sensation by eating more
- DoreenMichele 9y agoOne reason so many homeless people smoke: it suppresses the appetite, making it easier to cope with being underfed. Sometimes when people stop smoking and gain weight because of it, they really wrestle with the question of whether or not it is worth it. I have had women tell me that the hardest part of quitting was watching their weight go up. It made it really hard to stay the course because women are given so much hell in the US about how important it is to be thin.
- lostgame 9y agoSomeone is speaking from a lack of experience.
- hugh4life 9y agoI would like to see one country go all in vaping(and snus) and completely ban cigarettes.
- TillE 9y agoI'm honestly surprised that vaping hasn't naturally killed off cigarettes already. I suspect it will eventually. You get to consume nicotine while eliminating maybe 95% of the downsides of smoking tobacco. Plus it's usually a lot cheaper.
- pandaman 9y agoSome people believe that people are actually addicted to MAOIs in tobacco smoke (though this does not explain dipping) but I think the issue is that the literal "e-cigarettes" (small units, which look like a cigarette) you can buy everywhere are neither good enough sources of nicotine, nor convenience. Advanced vaporizers, which could successfully substitute cigarettes are even less convenient: replacement coils are not standardized, firmware is buggy, juice is leaking, settings are confusing etc. It's not rocket science but enough of a barrier for most people as it seems. E.g. my vaping setup is: a mechanical vaporizer (so no firmware issues), a charger and a set of 18650 IMR cells (you have to buy them online since they are not intended for sale to consumers), an atomizer building deck (an ohm-meter + power source to burn coils outside the vaporizer), all kinds of heating wire, tools to work with the wire, wick, juice. Compare to a cigarette smoking: cigarettes, lighter, ashtray (if you lucky to be able to smoke inside), all available everywhere and you can get by just with the cigarettes.
- nvus 9y agoI believe other factors are at play, neither the anti-smoking campaigns or the affordability of the cigarettes is representing the data. A mixture of contraband, alternatives and other factors are at play, unfortunately Greece is going to battle cigs for a long time unless drastic measures are taken.
- baumbart 9y agoI would never want to become a business partner with someone who is smoking cigarettes. Why? For me it indicates a lack of intelligence, not being good at dealing with stress and bad long-term thinking. When smoking cigarettes you are paying twice - first when spending money in order to ruin your health, and many years later when you are spending money on health-care in order to fix your ruined health. The Greeks have understood this. Also, when you are getting closer to an emergency situation than we are normally today, you will also start caring more about your health automatically. That's what evolution has taught us, it is natural behavior. Modern luxury has let us care less about our bodies than we should.
- Rebelgecko 9y agoDo you feel the same way about having a business partner that drinks alcohol or is overweight?
- baumbart 9y agoThat's a good question. Interestingly not! For one part I think that drinking (modest) amounts of alcohol is not as bad for your health as smoking. I would avoid people who love binge-drinking though, for the same reasons as above. Also it is much harder to find non-alcoholics than people who don't smoke, I would think. Being overweight is a different card, because it's a symptom, not an action that is chosen voluntarily. There can be many reasons for being overweight... maybe genes, some kind of illness etc.. I can't judge based on something I don't exactly know. But then again ... when I see someone eating lots of fast-food, chips and drinking Cola ... I would probably hesitate to ask him to become my business partner.
- connorelsea 9y agoThis is all seemingly a very superficial and judgmental process you've described for selecting a business partner. I'd probably want to know more about their work experience and skills - not so much their taste in cola or cigarettes.
- dpc59 9y ago
- phant0mas 9y agoI am from Greece and everywhere I go everyone is smoking. Where do they get this data?
- icebraining 9y agoTheir data still says that more than 1 in 4 Greeks smoke, so it's not surprising that you see it everywhere. It's just that it's no longer more than 1 in 3.
- thriftwy 9y agoOn the hypothesis that smoking was covering some kind of need in smokers, what's replacing smoking? What is that need and what's covering it now?
- 0xcde4c3db 9y agoWhen the US went through the same thing, it superficially seemed like cigarettes were largely replaced by caffeine, particularly in the form of "energy drinks" like Red Bull and 5-Hour Energy. It's possible that this is just a coincidence, though. As to what specifically the need might be, there's a good bit of circumstantial evidence to suggest that nicotine relieves or compensates for some symptoms of schizophrenia, ADHD, and related disorders.
- HenryBemis 9y agoKnowing Greeks, they are definitely not "abandoning cigarettes in record numbers". Some do quit smoking, as it is pretty expensive and 70% or the cigarettes price is taxes. But most turn to black-market cigarettes and tobacco.
- Feniks 9y agoYep, the Mafia actually got started with cigarette smuggling from Turkey. And Greeks are very good at not doing receipts. The black market economy is significant.
- eitland 9y agoThis seesm to indicate otherwise: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16195566 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16195566
- seliopou 9y agoThe findings are not based on economic statistics, such as tax revenue. Rather, it's based on a health survey conducted by eurostat, as indicated by this link from the article: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Tobacco_consumption_statistics#Daily_smokers_of_cigarettes http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...
- Hasz 9y agoI have an intense personal dislike of smoking. If more people are really moving off them, all the better. From the intrusion on others (second hand smoke) to the cancer, to the litter, there is absolutely nothing positive about cigarettes. I'm no fan of vaping, but as an intermediate step to the elimination of smoking, it is a necessary evil. I would be very happy if cigarettes vanished from the world.
- trevyn 9y ago>there is absolutely nothing positive about cigarettes. This is a silly statement. People smoke for many legitimate reasons beyond having an active addiction.
- matte_black 9y agoLike what? I also see nothing positive about cigarettes.
- eric_h 9y agoSmoking cigarettes can be an effective treatment for mild cases of Tourette's. Of course, it's just the nicotine that does it, so vaping is equally effective.
- thatcat 9y agoNicotine can act as an antidepressant/antipsychotic; cigarettes are a cheap, widely available form that requires no additional equiptment except a lighter.
- DanBC 9y agoPeople with psychosis tend to die 20 years earlier than the general population. One of the reason is that people with some types of psychosis smoke a lot. They smoke more cigarettes, and smoke them more deeply, than they general population. If they're medicated the hydrocarbons in burnt tobacco interact with antipsychotic medication, making it less effective, meaning they need more meds. And antipsychotic meds can be pretty nasty. https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg178 https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg178 > In March 2014, a correction was made to the wording of recommendation 1.1.3.3 to clarify that it is the hydrocarbons in cigarette smoke that cause interactions with other drugs, rather than nicotine. What people with psychosis need is early intervention that addresses the full range of bio-psycho-social needs the person has.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- zerostar07 9y agoVaping comes to mind as a recent factor , but other than that i don't see any drastic change. Yes people are very gradually abandoning it, young people don't smoke, but people are not quitting smoking. Everyone i know under 50 who has quit at some point is back at it again 1-2 years later. There was an attempt to ban smoking in public spaces years ago, but it didnt last long and if anything the situation is worse now. I'm not sure if they 've controlled correctly in their study.
- elorant 9y agoThe one thing the article fails to mention is that electronic cigarette usage in Greece has skyrocketed the last years. E-cigarette shops are popping everywhere, I know at least four in a mile radius from where I live. And while cigarette taxes have raised considerably, the prices aren't that high because many people smoke tobacco which costs around 7,5 euro for a pack of 30 grams that lasts for days.
- gumby 9y agoAll the graffiti in the photo accompanying the article is in the Latin alphabet. What gives?
- zerostar07 9y agoMost of the calligraphic/artistic graffiti is in english. Only plain writing and some football team names are written in greek.
- hokus 9y agoI always call this quiting the natural way (cant afford it) While it is a joke I did see plenty of people turn financial "freedom" into their personal hell of drugs and/or gambling. The weirdest example was an extremely hard working self-employed construction worker with a large variety of skills. The most happy period in his life (from my perspective) was when he lived on a camping in a tiny tent with a budget of 5 euro per day. All he did was eat fruit, lift weights, sit in the sun and chat with the camping folk. At a different times he had 20 employees. Every day he smoked 2 packs of cigarettes, 5 grams of weed and god knows how much cocaine. But that was during work. He spend all of his free time gazing at slot machines. At the time he also never showed up for appointments if they didn't involve large amounts of money. He owed everyone money that he could easily pay but just didn't show up to do. Great way to lose friends, borrow as much as you can then pretend it isn't important enough to pay them back.
- hokus 9y agoPeople fail to see how stupid it is to punish smokers with taxes. It would be a wonderful formula if we all made the same amount of money. When financial life is total shit one might be depressed to the point that giving up smoking is impossible. Likewise, if one has a lot of money in the bank a pack of smokes would have to cost something like 1000 Euro before one would start to notice it. Some could even afford 30 k per month without giving it a second thought. As a smoker I see only one viable solution. 1) Remove all cigarettes from the stores. 2) Have doctors do regular blood tests to prescribe the desired amount of tobacco and/or chewing gum. No brands, just one size fits all. No added lead, tar, chlorine etc etc 3) make a time released mechanism to get at each cigarette. 4) Gradually reduce the amount of tobacco served. 5) If the patient fails to reduce his intake he has to make an appointment with the doctor. Regular blood tests will show his current intake so that the doctor can re-adjust his ration to the state of the habit. 6) If step 5 fails repeatedly there can be a kind of hospitalization (read prison) where one isn't allowed to smoke at all for 2 weeks. I think I smoke 15 cigarettes per day. My doctor would prescribe me 105 this week in 7 time locked boxes and another 105 next week. 2 weeks seems enough to get the added stress from the rationing figured out. After 2 weeks he would only prescribe 98 in 7 boxes of 14. This wouldn't bother me at all. In week 5 and 6 there would be only 13 per day left. At that point I would have to seriously start considering which to skip. Maybe the one with the coffee right after waking up can be delayed for an hour? Week 7 and 8 there would be 12. I might save one for bed time in stead of just lighting them up at every idle moment of the day. A most interesting effect starts kicking roughly at this point: Other people cant have one. 9, 10 = 11 11,12 = 10 13,14 = 9 15,16 = 8 17,18 = 7 19,20 = 6 21,22 = 5 23,24 = 4 25,26 = 3 27,28 = 2 29,30 = 1 30,31 = 1 every 2 days 32,33 = 1 every 3 days 34,35 = 1 every 4 days 36,37 = 1 every 5 days 38,39 = 1 every 6 days 40,41 = 1 every week 42 = ur cured bro! Blood tests continue however! 3 months no nicotine = you get 1000 euro 6 months no nicotine = you get 3000 euro 1 year no nicotine = you get 5000 euro Fail to show up for the tests or start smoking again: A fine of 1 month salary and back to step 2. People who never smoked will get the same reward. The money isn't an issue as smokers have paid crazy amounts of tax over the last few years. So far it was not like a road tax to pay for roads it was a troll tax simply to take your money away. If it is such a great idea we could easily slap a similar 500% troll tax on 90% of the food for not being the most nutritious choice. Not getting enough exercise? A flat tax of 500 Euro per month seems a great way to cure you? no? Overweight? woah! that will be another 300. An exponential tax for drinking also seems great? We could even prescribe push ups or other exercises and monitor you at home. Imagine the tax money to be made! Then we could all band together and hate on fat people the way we troll smokers. I mean, are we talking about some sadist fetish or is it really all because people care so much about the smokers health? At my job all but one guy smoke, our coffee room is never used by anyone. We all stand outside the building. There is no one else there, no one can see us (LOL!) and we bring an ashtray. Now someone decided that we cant smoke on company terrain anymore. We have to walk 200 meters and stand outside the fence - but not in a way customers would notice us. This is not because they care so much, it is to cater to the hysteria from anti-smoking sadists. People who've made it their business to meddle in other peoples lives because they can. Their hysterical screaming YOU CANT SMOKE HERE! doesn't at all suggest they ohhh care sohhh much about my health.
- beagle3 9y agoI wonder how well this matches Murphy & Becker's theory of Rational Addiction[0]; AFAIK it properly predicted the change in smoker percentage as a function of price (but not the percentage of drug users) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_addiction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_addiction