7 ms·

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Gue

by knz 9y ago

> We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. In Democracy the people get the government they deserve. Guess we really don't deserve human rights and habeus corpus. So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Much of the country is purple not red and blue - if you can have a respectful conversation with someone you can find common ground on these issues. And show up on election day. The First Amendment exists for a reason - "we get the government we deserve" applies to those of us who chose to stay informed as well if we don't respond to the challenges of the day.

IIAOPSW 9y ago
>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.
- knz 9y ago
  Yes, very much so with some individuals. I have friends and family across the political spectrum and we regularly talk about the issues of the day (always in person, social media is a horrible platform for this). I've had success educating individuals about issues like net neutrality, gun rights, gay marriage, climate change, and environmental regulation to the point that they completely changed their views to at least neutral. They've changed my views on issues as well. I've also talked people out of supporting outrageous statements or made them question their own beliefs (rural relatives in South Dakota who loved talking about their lack of income tax now openly question why SD gets so much more government tax money than neighbouring MN etc). That said, the point isn't to be "win", it's to have a dialogue, share ideas, and break out of the "us vs them" mentality.
- mschuster91 9y ago
  > Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? It is extremely hard and works only with people not entirely webbed into "alternative media". I managed to get only one attendant of a Nazi march to rethink his views. In three years. Conspiracy theories are hard to break out of, especially for those without a job and doing nothing but watch "freemen of the land", "europe will be islamized" or "the hooton plan is real" (hooton plan = nazi nutjob theory that "the elite" wants to extinguish the Germans by having them breed with "weaker races") videos all day. The rest, well... beating them like Spencer isn't exactly the most moral way either, but forcing them back into their caves at least keeps them off the streets. I don't want Nazis openly marching with torches on the streets.
  - CodeWriter23 9y ago
    Check out how many minds this man has changed. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinc...
    - mschuster91 9y ago
      This, sorry, were different times, however I admire the patience of this man. Today it is possible for someone to hear, watch and read only fake news all day without having any kind of dissenting viewpoint, compared to prior times where the only exposure was the weekly KKK gathering and maybe some letters. It is way harder (or impossible!) to break through the psychological walls the exposure to this shit creates. In addition, today's fake news and right wing propaganda is specifically engineered to appeal to the lowest prime instincts only, and Facebook's algorithms only intensify the problem as they keep feeding you more and more poison.
      - mixmastamyk 9y ago
        Ten years ago I would still try to engage “TV watching folks” about the things I had read about, for example re: Sept 11. Only later realized I never had a chance, versus the corporate idiot box on in their house 4+ hours a day.
- CodeWriter23 9y ago
  That’s kind of a disrespectful way to deal with someone, going in with the idea their mind needs to be changed. Nothing productive comes from telling someone they’re wrong. I’ve found the most movement comes with frank and respectful exchange of ideas. I’ve moved a little as a result, and I’ve seen others move a bit too. Sometimes that movement has come simply from recognizing the other party isn’t as insane as common rhetoric would paint them.
- sanderjd 9y ago
  I largely share your incredulity, but allow me to make a more optimistic counterpoint. I frequently change my mind, which is proof that one or more people out there are changing at least one person's mind. And here's the thing: in nearly all cases, the person or, more often, the people who change my mind never know it. I am often stubborn in the moment and unwilling to admit I've been swayed. More often, I don't realize that I have been swayed until I revisit the conversation over the next months, while adding in new information from other conversations or things I'm reading with a developing perspective. Sometimes my mind changes so slowly that I don't even notice it did until someone quotes back to me the now (obviously! objectively!) wrong thing I used to think. My point is this: you may be changing minds without knowing it. And another point: even if you aren't, you are likely benefitting personally from having meaningful conversations with people.
  - philipov 9y ago
    I'm glad you made this point, because it's a maxim I live by: You can't change people, you can only encourage them to change themselves. To effect change, people must be open and willing to change themselves. And I don't think most people are, especially the older we get. If you want to change people's minds on a big scale, it's by educating the young, and creating incentives towards your way of thinking. It requires institutional power, and it takes generations.
    - thisacctforreal 9y ago
      I like the first two paragraphs but I'm not sure I can swallow that third one. As a direct counter-example: I think a lot of older people have given up their previous views on privacy in exchange for using Facebook and doing other commonly-intrusive internet activities. I think I'd replace the paragraph with "If you want to change someone's mind, try demonstrating an alternative with better trade-offs". I'm hoping the GDPR will be a demonstration to Canadians & Americans that demanding a right to privacy is a viable alternative to the status quo. Social networks, advertising, and privacy are able co-exist, just perhaps not with the existing trade-offs allowing free-as-in-beer and know-me-better-than-myself-"features". edit: reordering paragraphs edit2: reorganization
- reitanqild 9y ago
  Works. Proof: me. I've changed my mind on certain topics - esp drugs and to a certain degree AGW based on discussions. Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me. I do however listen to reasonable arguments and take pride in being able to change my mind.
  - Simon_says 9y ago
    > Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me. It doesn't work on anybody.
  - michaelmrose 9y ago
    From the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of the arguments regarding climate change how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. I absolutely don't mean to imply you are stupid. I had a relative who was extremely intelligent, his career being aurospace engineer who didn't believe in cimate change and another a computer programmer who didn't believe in evolution. I don't think I understand how people can believe nonsense and yet obviously be capable of learning complex and difficult topics.
    - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
      Your examples are both about people being sceptical, but then you say: >"I don't think I understand how people can believe nonsense [...]" // Are these supposed to be related. Not believing in evolution doesn't mean you do believe in nonsense, for example. Once you've been around the block a few times it's easy to get cynical about scientific claims. Too much scientism.
      - michaelmrose 9y ago
        The programmer believed that god waved a magic wand to bring into being all present and prior animals. He had thought about this extensively and had done research and still believed the magic wand explanation.
    - 9y ago
- jnbiche 9y ago
  > Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? I know the question wasn't directed at me, and it's not with respect to the proposed Muslim ban, but I have changed the mind of some of the voters from this general background: specifically, would-be Roy Moore voters. I convinced a good handful of them not to vote for him[1]. And as far as I know, they stayed home. The key is to be extremely patient, honest, and respectful. You can't use the typical Twitter technique of beating them over the head with opinions, or even the blunt HN technique of overwhelming them with facts. You have to first try to understand their viewpoint, and where they are coming from. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it, just understand it. And the best way to do that is to start asking lots of respectful questions, and depending on the person, sharing your own background. Then, start interspersing harder questions about the subject in question, like Roy Moore in this case. Don't push too hard, but ask hard questions in a respectful way. Of course, in these situations, you have to be open to having your opinion changed, as well. It's not a very eloquent summary of what I've done in this situations, but it's the best I've got tonight. 1. Perhaps the hardest part about this is differentiating between propaganda sock puppet accounts, whom you will likely never convince, and actual people who happen to believe some pretty crazy things. Once you've identified real, genuine fellow citizens behind whatever pseudonymous social media account, you're half-way there.
  - frandroid 9y ago
    Sarah Silverman's encounter with a troll recently was a great demonstration of what you explain here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2018/01/08/a-man-trolled-sarah-silverman-on-twitter-she-ended-up-helping-him-with-his-medical-problems/?utm_term=.72ecc01d6f56 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2018/01...
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    I forgot where I read it, maybe on the Southern Poverty Law Center's site, but I could be wrong, but they were talking about a similar thing -- how to convince people to change their mind. The example was about how to change people's opinion in regard to transgender people. The idea was similar -- beating them on the head with 140-character sarcastic blurbs, showing stats and facts, insulting etc, just doesn't work. What works is to talk to them face to face and to present a case of one particular individual, not a hypothetical one but one whose name is John or Jane and how they are struggling and how they face hate and discrimination and how it makes them feel.
- e12e 9y ago
  I just recently watched "City of ghosts"[1], and while there are many strong moments - one that stood out to me, is about in the middle, where these people - heroes in our time - who fled isis/daesh because of being persecuted - because of being citizen journalists - are in Berlin at a counter-demonstration against a neo nazi rally. And it kind of just slots so many pieces of wrong conclusions and xenophobia and dehumanization of the "other" together in one, painfully clear image... I'm not sure of that moves the needle on being able to convince anyone.. But if not we might as well all build gas chambers and furnaces and burn vagrants as a source of electricity. Because if we give up fighting for the right for all of being viewed as human - what's left? [ed: to more directly answer the question - I know I've made people pause - but most recently - a friend really made someone reconsider/reframe their idea of feminism/equality due to an hour or two of discussion and and real-world examples. So it is possible, but it takes patience, emphaty and knowledge.] [1] https://m.imdb.com/title/tt6333056/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt6333056/
- merpnderp 9y ago
  Likely because he leads with “Muslim ban,” which sounds ignorant. Most people who agree with the ban realize it is a temporary ban on countries requested by DHS because there currently is no valid process for doing background checks on people from those countries. So yeah I can see why he fails to change minds.
  - learc83 9y ago
    Regardless of what Trump actually implemented. During the campaign he called for a Muslim ban. "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on." >We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. The OP is saying that close to half the voters voted for Trump, so it's likely they agree that a Muslim ban is appropriate.
    - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
      Well, it makes a great deal of sense in using "Muslim Ban". You 'otherize' them, you set them up against "You", and then you discriminate against them because they hate and want violence against you. It's also hard to go against this, as we've been at war with the Middle East since Desert Storm - only a ceasefire was called. And then later add on extremist moslems during September 11 attacks, and yeah.. It's a perfect firestorm of justifiable hatred of a religion by a great many people.
      - EliRivers 9y ago
        Sets a very useful precedent too, opening the door for bringing back Roman Catholic bans.
        crankylinuxuser 9y ago
        True that, but they're still Christians as far as R's are concerned. Yeah, they do have some weird radical views like the Pope - but those can be fixed. The people in the middle east worship a "psychotic man with a hairy mole" (aka: Mohamed). I learned that on WIBC, 1070KHz after a multitude of interviews that Mike Pence hosted back in the mid 90's with "religion intellectuals". I was in my mid teens during that.. should have recorded him talking about all this, but I'm sure the radio studio has recordings as well. And back to the main issue, "Otherization" allows targeting anyone they don't want. And this seems to be drifting hard to neo-nazism. I know the people on Daily Stormer and similar groups are rather happy.
- michaelbuckbee 9y ago
  There is Daryl Davis. He's black and personally convinced 200 KKK members into leaving the organization [1]. I'm a better and more mature person at 40 than I was at 20 because people have taken the time to patiently point out flaws in my own thinking. Not every conversation moves the direction of your life, but they do collectively nudge you in the right direction. 1 - https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinc...
- totalZero 9y ago
  > Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Engage them directly, wait until the next conversation on the topic in a group, and hang back. Sometimes you'll be surprised. People don't always change their minds immediately, but this is to be expected -- it is a means to protect the ego.
- Natsu 9y ago
  If you want to know if you've probably changed someone's opinion, look for evidence of confusion. That said, you may not find any obvious tell unless they say something.
- jancsika 9y ago
  That's a strange set of questions to ask. If I take you on good faith that you aren't merely trolling the commenter, it means that an affirmative reply from a pseudonymous respondent on the internet would quell or at least temper your incredulity. That seems like a very brittle and easily gamed way to decide what you do and don't believe.
- code_duck 9y ago
  My own views have evolved based on conversations I’ve read and participated in online. I don't necessarily realize it at the time I’m still participating in the conversation, or stubborness may preclude me from telling the person presenting the opposing viewpoint that I decided to abandon my belief in favor of theirs, but i have been persuaded in the past. I assume this happens to other people as well. One thing to note is that the beliefs you’re convincing people of don’t have to be top-level shifts like ‘be a communist instead of a libertarian ‘... one can help others see individual issues or political figures in a new light.
- gcb0 9y ago
  somebody did change yours.
- Kalium 9y ago
  Yes! I have! With one caveat, though. If you approach it with the mindset that you're out to educate other voters, you're not going to succeed. What you can do is have actual conversations with them. Sometimes those have results. When one person sets out to educate another, there's a presumption of power, position, and knowledge. Unless the person to be educated has set out specifically to be educated, this is almost certainly going to rub them the wrong way. Instead of being educated on the subject you'd like, you'll educate them that advocates on a given subject are arrogant lecturing asses.
dgzl 9y ago
I used to be highly political on Facebook. From my experience, people just don't care.
- astronautjones 9y ago
  Do it in reality
  - mieseratte 9y ago
    That's honestly the most realistic approach. I make a conscious effort not to follow politics nowadays, too much negativity, but doing so online seems to always cause folks to fly into defensive mode. In person less so. Facial cues, maybe?
- paganel 9y ago
  Same experience here. I stopped it almost completely a couple of months ago when the authorities from my country (EU and NATO member, mind you) have started fining people for their anti-Government FB posts. The stated reasons were that those posts were inciting people to violence, but the police never revealed the posts' contents so there's no way to actually know when one can become liable for posting an anti-Government message, I mean "lets get the Government down!" can be seen as inciting people (and a new proposed law even mentions potential prison time for the same kind of FB posts). No way I risk going through that hassle for no real benefits, as people have very rarely changed their mind based on others' FB messages.
- knz 9y ago
  Do it in person and don't approach it as a conversation specifically about politics - "Did you see x in the news? Crazy huh?" is better than "Here is this hilarious meme about Republicans/Democrats!" etc.
- mcguire 9y ago
  How do you be "highly political" on Facebook?
  - 9y ago
remind_me_again 9y ago
Yes, educate fellow citizens. Here's a material for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsfROmgVN5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsfROmgVN5U

by knz 9y ago

IIAOPSW 9y ago

>So speak up. Educate your fellow citizens as to why these issues are important. Break through their media bubble/snowglobe and have multiple meaningful conversations that go deeper than the talking points spewed out by media personalities. Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Not trying to be facetious, but I'm incredulous.

knz 9y ago
Yes, very much so with some individuals. I have friends and family across the political spectrum and we regularly talk about the issues of the day (always in person, social media is a horrible platform for this). I've had success educating individuals about issues like net neutrality, gun rights, gay marriage, climate change, and environmental regulation to the point that they completely changed their views to at least neutral. They've changed my views on issues as well. I've also talked people out of supporting outrageous statements or made them question their own beliefs (rural relatives in South Dakota who loved talking about their lack of income tax now openly question why SD gets so much more government tax money than neighbouring MN etc). That said, the point isn't to be "win", it's to have a dialogue, share ideas, and break out of the "us vs them" mentality.
mschuster91 9y ago
> Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? It is extremely hard and works only with people not entirely webbed into "alternative media". I managed to get only one attendant of a Nazi march to rethink his views. In three years. Conspiracy theories are hard to break out of, especially for those without a job and doing nothing but watch "freemen of the land", "europe will be islamized" or "the hooton plan is real" (hooton plan = nazi nutjob theory that "the elite" wants to extinguish the Germans by having them breed with "weaker races") videos all day. The rest, well... beating them like Spencer isn't exactly the most moral way either, but forcing them back into their caves at least keeps them off the streets. I don't want Nazis openly marching with torches on the streets.
- CodeWriter23 9y ago
  Check out how many minds this man has changed. https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinc...
  - mschuster91 9y ago
    This, sorry, were different times, however I admire the patience of this man. Today it is possible for someone to hear, watch and read only fake news all day without having any kind of dissenting viewpoint, compared to prior times where the only exposure was the weekly KKK gathering and maybe some letters. It is way harder (or impossible!) to break through the psychological walls the exposure to this shit creates. In addition, today's fake news and right wing propaganda is specifically engineered to appeal to the lowest prime instincts only, and Facebook's algorithms only intensify the problem as they keep feeding you more and more poison.
    - mixmastamyk 9y ago
      Ten years ago I would still try to engage “TV watching folks” about the things I had read about, for example re: Sept 11. Only later realized I never had a chance, versus the corporate idiot box on in their house 4+ hours a day.
CodeWriter23 9y ago
That’s kind of a disrespectful way to deal with someone, going in with the idea their mind needs to be changed. Nothing productive comes from telling someone they’re wrong. I’ve found the most movement comes with frank and respectful exchange of ideas. I’ve moved a little as a result, and I’ve seen others move a bit too. Sometimes that movement has come simply from recognizing the other party isn’t as insane as common rhetoric would paint them.
sanderjd 9y ago
I largely share your incredulity, but allow me to make a more optimistic counterpoint. I frequently change my mind, which is proof that one or more people out there are changing at least one person's mind. And here's the thing: in nearly all cases, the person or, more often, the people who change my mind never know it. I am often stubborn in the moment and unwilling to admit I've been swayed. More often, I don't realize that I have been swayed until I revisit the conversation over the next months, while adding in new information from other conversations or things I'm reading with a developing perspective. Sometimes my mind changes so slowly that I don't even notice it did until someone quotes back to me the now (obviously! objectively!) wrong thing I used to think. My point is this: you may be changing minds without knowing it. And another point: even if you aren't, you are likely benefitting personally from having meaningful conversations with people.
- philipov 9y ago
  I'm glad you made this point, because it's a maxim I live by: You can't change people, you can only encourage them to change themselves. To effect change, people must be open and willing to change themselves. And I don't think most people are, especially the older we get. If you want to change people's minds on a big scale, it's by educating the young, and creating incentives towards your way of thinking. It requires institutional power, and it takes generations.
  - thisacctforreal 9y ago
    I like the first two paragraphs but I'm not sure I can swallow that third one. As a direct counter-example: I think a lot of older people have given up their previous views on privacy in exchange for using Facebook and doing other commonly-intrusive internet activities. I think I'd replace the paragraph with "If you want to change someone's mind, try demonstrating an alternative with better trade-offs". I'm hoping the GDPR will be a demonstration to Canadians & Americans that demanding a right to privacy is a viable alternative to the status quo. Social networks, advertising, and privacy are able co-exist, just perhaps not with the existing trade-offs allowing free-as-in-beer and know-me-better-than-myself-"features". edit: reordering paragraphs edit2: reorganization
reitanqild 9y ago
Works. Proof: me. I've changed my mind on certain topics - esp drugs and to a certain degree AGW based on discussions. Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me. I do however listen to reasonable arguments and take pride in being able to change my mind.
- Simon_says 9y ago
  > Protip: calling me a troll, paid shill, downvoting honest questions doesn't work on people like me. It doesn't work on anybody.
- michaelmrose 9y ago
  From the perspective of someone who has been on both sides of the arguments regarding climate change how is it possible to be intelligent and not believe in climate change. I absolutely don't mean to imply you are stupid. I had a relative who was extremely intelligent, his career being aurospace engineer who didn't believe in cimate change and another a computer programmer who didn't believe in evolution. I don't think I understand how people can believe nonsense and yet obviously be capable of learning complex and difficult topics.
  - pbhjpbhj 9y ago
    Your examples are both about people being sceptical, but then you say: >"I don't think I understand how people can believe nonsense [...]" // Are these supposed to be related. Not believing in evolution doesn't mean you do believe in nonsense, for example. Once you've been around the block a few times it's easy to get cynical about scientific claims. Too much scientism.
    - michaelmrose 9y ago
      The programmer believed that god waved a magic wand to bring into being all present and prior animals. He had thought about this extensively and had done research and still believed the magic wand explanation.
  - 9y ago
jnbiche 9y ago
> Have you ever actually gotten that to work? Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? I know the question wasn't directed at me, and it's not with respect to the proposed Muslim ban, but I have changed the mind of some of the voters from this general background: specifically, would-be Roy Moore voters. I convinced a good handful of them not to vote for him[1]. And as far as I know, they stayed home. The key is to be extremely patient, honest, and respectful. You can't use the typical Twitter technique of beating them over the head with opinions, or even the blunt HN technique of overwhelming them with facts. You have to first try to understand their viewpoint, and where they are coming from. Doesn't mean you have to agree with it, just understand it. And the best way to do that is to start asking lots of respectful questions, and depending on the person, sharing your own background. Then, start interspersing harder questions about the subject in question, like Roy Moore in this case. Don't push too hard, but ask hard questions in a respectful way. Of course, in these situations, you have to be open to having your opinion changed, as well. It's not a very eloquent summary of what I've done in this situations, but it's the best I've got tonight. 1. Perhaps the hardest part about this is differentiating between propaganda sock puppet accounts, whom you will likely never convince, and actual people who happen to believe some pretty crazy things. Once you've identified real, genuine fellow citizens behind whatever pseudonymous social media account, you're half-way there.
- frandroid 9y ago
  Sarah Silverman's encounter with a troll recently was a great demonstration of what you explain here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2018/01/08/a-man-trolled-sarah-silverman-on-twitter-she-ended-up-helping-him-with-his-medical-problems/?utm_term=.72ecc01d6f56 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/inspired-life/wp/2018/01...
- rdtsc 9y ago
  I forgot where I read it, maybe on the Southern Poverty Law Center's site, but I could be wrong, but they were talking about a similar thing -- how to convince people to change their mind. The example was about how to change people's opinion in regard to transgender people. The idea was similar -- beating them on the head with 140-character sarcastic blurbs, showing stats and facts, insulting etc, just doesn't work. What works is to talk to them face to face and to present a case of one particular individual, not a hypothetical one but one whose name is John or Jane and how they are struggling and how they face hate and discrimination and how it makes them feel.
e12e 9y ago
I just recently watched "City of ghosts"[1], and while there are many strong moments - one that stood out to me, is about in the middle, where these people - heroes in our time - who fled isis/daesh because of being persecuted - because of being citizen journalists - are in Berlin at a counter-demonstration against a neo nazi rally. And it kind of just slots so many pieces of wrong conclusions and xenophobia and dehumanization of the "other" together in one, painfully clear image... I'm not sure of that moves the needle on being able to convince anyone.. But if not we might as well all build gas chambers and furnaces and burn vagrants as a source of electricity. Because if we give up fighting for the right for all of being viewed as human - what's left? [ed: to more directly answer the question - I know I've made people pause - but most recently - a friend really made someone reconsider/reframe their idea of feminism/equality due to an hour or two of discussion and and real-world examples. So it is possible, but it takes patience, emphaty and knowledge.] [1] https://m.imdb.com/title/tt6333056/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt6333056/
merpnderp 9y ago
Likely because he leads with “Muslim ban,” which sounds ignorant. Most people who agree with the ban realize it is a temporary ban on countries requested by DHS because there currently is no valid process for doing background checks on people from those countries. So yeah I can see why he fails to change minds.
- learc83 9y ago
  Regardless of what Trump actually implemented. During the campaign he called for a Muslim ban. "Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on." >We live in an age where "Muslim ban" sounds like appropriate policy to about half the population. The OP is saying that close to half the voters voted for Trump, so it's likely they agree that a Muslim ban is appropriate.
  - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
    Well, it makes a great deal of sense in using "Muslim Ban". You 'otherize' them, you set them up against "You", and then you discriminate against them because they hate and want violence against you. It's also hard to go against this, as we've been at war with the Middle East since Desert Storm - only a ceasefire was called. And then later add on extremist moslems during September 11 attacks, and yeah.. It's a perfect firestorm of justifiable hatred of a religion by a great many people.
    - EliRivers 9y ago
      Sets a very useful precedent too, opening the door for bringing back Roman Catholic bans.
      - crankylinuxuser 9y ago
        True that, but they're still Christians as far as R's are concerned. Yeah, they do have some weird radical views like the Pope - but those can be fixed. The people in the middle east worship a "psychotic man with a hairy mole" (aka: Mohamed). I learned that on WIBC, 1070KHz after a multitude of interviews that Mike Pence hosted back in the mid 90's with "religion intellectuals". I was in my mid teens during that.. should have recorded him talking about all this, but I'm sure the radio studio has recordings as well. And back to the main issue, "Otherization" allows targeting anyone they don't want. And this seems to be drifting hard to neo-nazism. I know the people on Daily Stormer and similar groups are rather happy.
michaelbuckbee 9y ago
There is Daryl Davis. He's black and personally convinced 200 KKK members into leaving the organization [1]. I'm a better and more mature person at 40 than I was at 20 because people have taken the time to patiently point out flaws in my own thinking. Not every conversation moves the direction of your life, but they do collectively nudge you in the right direction. 1 - https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinced-200-ku-klux-klan-members-to-give-up-their-robes https://www.npr.org/2017/08/20/544861933/how-one-man-convinc...
totalZero 9y ago
> Have you personally ever changed a single persons mind? Engage them directly, wait until the next conversation on the topic in a group, and hang back. Sometimes you'll be surprised. People don't always change their minds immediately, but this is to be expected -- it is a means to protect the ego.
Natsu 9y ago
If you want to know if you've probably changed someone's opinion, look for evidence of confusion. That said, you may not find any obvious tell unless they say something.
jancsika 9y ago
That's a strange set of questions to ask. If I take you on good faith that you aren't merely trolling the commenter, it means that an affirmative reply from a pseudonymous respondent on the internet would quell or at least temper your incredulity. That seems like a very brittle and easily gamed way to decide what you do and don't believe.
code_duck 9y ago
My own views have evolved based on conversations I’ve read and participated in online. I don't necessarily realize it at the time I’m still participating in the conversation, or stubborness may preclude me from telling the person presenting the opposing viewpoint that I decided to abandon my belief in favor of theirs, but i have been persuaded in the past. I assume this happens to other people as well. One thing to note is that the beliefs you’re convincing people of don’t have to be top-level shifts like ‘be a communist instead of a libertarian ‘... one can help others see individual issues or political figures in a new light.
gcb0 9y ago
somebody did change yours.
Kalium 9y ago
Yes! I have! With one caveat, though. If you approach it with the mindset that you're out to educate other voters, you're not going to succeed. What you can do is have actual conversations with them. Sometimes those have results. When one person sets out to educate another, there's a presumption of power, position, and knowledge. Unless the person to be educated has set out specifically to be educated, this is almost certainly going to rub them the wrong way. Instead of being educated on the subject you'd like, you'll educate them that advocates on a given subject are arrogant lecturing asses.

dgzl 9y ago

I used to be highly political on Facebook. From my experience, people just don't care.

astronautjones 9y ago
Do it in reality
- mieseratte 9y ago
  That's honestly the most realistic approach. I make a conscious effort not to follow politics nowadays, too much negativity, but doing so online seems to always cause folks to fly into defensive mode. In person less so. Facial cues, maybe?
paganel 9y ago
Same experience here. I stopped it almost completely a couple of months ago when the authorities from my country (EU and NATO member, mind you) have started fining people for their anti-Government FB posts. The stated reasons were that those posts were inciting people to violence, but the police never revealed the posts' contents so there's no way to actually know when one can become liable for posting an anti-Government message, I mean "lets get the Government down!" can be seen as inciting people (and a new proposed law even mentions potential prison time for the same kind of FB posts). No way I risk going through that hassle for no real benefits, as people have very rarely changed their mind based on others' FB messages.
knz 9y ago
Do it in person and don't approach it as a conversation specifically about politics - "Did you see x in the news? Crazy huh?" is better than "Here is this hilarious meme about Republicans/Democrats!" etc.
mcguire 9y ago
How do you be "highly political" on Facebook?
- 9y ago

remind_me_again 9y ago

Yes, educate fellow citizens. Here's a material for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsfROmgVN5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsfROmgVN5U