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It's part of the reason I haven't bought a car. I'm in my mid 20s and didn't get my license in high school because insurance would have been too expensive (my p

• d4mi3n 9y ago
  I'm in a similar situation, but from what I gather lifestyle factors heavily into the "do I need/want a car" equation. Kids, for example, usually mandate a car. Outdoor activities or any hobby that requires you haul around a lot of gear can also make having your own transportation a lot more appealing.
  • cozzyd 9y ago
    I see people taking strollers on the bus all the time...
    • icebraining 9y ago
      Same here. Also bicycles with extra seats, if you happen to live in a city with some minimal infrastructure for it.
    • jethro_tell 9y ago
      we take our kids on the bus its fine, but not practical for daily commute, we drop all 4 of us off at a different spot on the way into the city. Just no good way to do that on the bus. once they are both in school, (and the school that is being remodeled so one of them is going across town, we should be able to take transit daily and the kids can walk too from school. There's more to it than if they can walk on and off the bus.
  • pavel_lishin 9y ago
    That strongly depends on where you live. Kids don't require a car in New York, but I can't imagine living in a suburb of Dallas without one.
    • lhorie 9y ago
      Lifestyle plays a part in where and how you live though. Kids may not require a car in downtown Toronto, but all the nice kid-oriented programs are uptown, where you do need a car to get around. Similarly, living in SF with two kids, I don't technically _need_ a car since MUNI coverage is decent, but we have a fast-paced lifestyle: it's a heck more convenient to have a car when you are regularly going to costco, ikea, trying out a new local bakery or restaurant, etc, etc... in a single day. Much like a house becomes a home, the car becomes a "base": it's a place for snacks and naps for the kids, for radio music and breaks, it's where we leave the bags of things to be returned to the mall after brunch, or the three layers of sweaters that are too hot to wear at noon but we'll definitely need on the way home at dusk, it's where we take pictures of the latest ice cream mess and where we have yelling contests when we get lost even though we have 2 GPS-enabled devices running. We could still do many of those things when we didn't have a car, but it's far more boring, far more exhausting, and far less fun.
      • wpietri 9y ago
        A tangent: > the car becomes a "base" This is the biggest divide I see when talking with people about future ownership of self-driving cars: will they consume it as an on-demand service, or will they own it outright? Some are vehemently in the "I'd never own a car again" camp, and others say "I'll buy one right away". People with kids seem much more likely to say the latter. It's not just transportation, it's a mobile room of the house.
        • pavel_lishin 9y ago
          I imagine that depends on the kid's age. When they're small, having a "mobile room" (I love this concept) is great - a place to store the car seat, the stroller, extra clothes, diapers, some backup formula, etc. As they get older, they need less and less accoutrements, until everything they need can fit in their pockets.
  • sebleon 9y ago
    > Outdoor Activities Renting a car (via Getaround, Zipar) on weekends can be cost effective
    • jgust 9y ago
      I don't find Zipcar all that affordable except for the very shortest of trips (read: < 3 hours). Anything over that and you're better off renting a vehicle for the day through traditional routes.
      • kazinator 9y ago
        I can get a car from AVIS for $30 to $40 CAD per day (not including gas: typically that is another $10-12 or so). I have a membership in a car share, but I rarely bother with it for the above reason. For an hour or two or something, it's good. Most recently used it for trips to emergency. I mean, the co-op car is out there on the street, walking distance, whereas you need a reservation for the rental car, can only get it during the opening hours, from an outfit that is several miles away. Yet, there is no guarantee that the share cars will be there for emergencies; it's just luck. If it's 3 a.m. the odds are excellent. 3 p.m. on a Saturday; not so good.
      • yeukhon 9y ago
        Same experience. I can rent for $100 for the full day. Problem is usually I have to pick up the car from the airport since local garages office hours are limited. There is very few available on the weekend.
        • markkanof 9y ago
          Zipcar usually has both and hourly and day rate. The day rate is typically something like $85 and the process of picking up the car is typically much easier than a traditional rental.
          • yeukhon 9y ago
            Don’t forget you have to add up taxes and other shitty fees. They come out like $100+ for Zipcar. Those $7.5 an hour deal is hard to get because they run out quick and then the ones left are far to pick up - at that point just call Uber or give up...
  • ihaveajob 9y ago
    We do have a car and a toddler. The car sits idle most days, maybe once a week we get on it to go somewhere where it's inconvenient by bike or transit. For his first year we didn't have a car. This is in SF and Berkeley. A lot of people, even those with kids, could perfectly ditch their cars, rent occasionally and come out ahead in terms of costs (and lifestyle).
    • j2bax 9y ago
      One thing I've wondered is how people deal with car seats with Uber/Lyft/Taxi's. Do they carry their own with them and take the time to install it and uninstall it? Do you just take the bus and not worry about a car seat?
      • jacquesm 9y ago
        Taxi's are usually exempt, Uber will provide a car seat for a surcharge of $10 in some locations, not sure about Lyft.
        • throwaway1X2 9y ago
          > Taxi's are usually exempt From local laws. From physical laws they are not. As a kid long time ago, I was sitting in a Fiat 124 when a bus driver wasn't paying attention to the road ahead and hit the stationary car on intersection in full city speed, thankfully it was direct hit from behind and there was nothing in front of the car, so there were no serious and only some very light injuries, but it was ugly. But I cannot image having a kid sitting freely in a lap nowadays just because the car in question is exempt from regulations. There doesn't even have to be a collision, emergency braking (either human or autonomous) is enough to throw the kid off against the car interior and sustain injuries (yep, had that too in the old no-rear-seat-belt-times when an ambulance without siren appeared oncoming wrong way, almost bit my tongue off). Don't use restraint systems just when they are required by regulations. And especially in nowadays tenfold traffic.
          • jacquesm 9y ago
  • rosege 9y ago
    or a dog
  • gaius 9y ago
    Outdoor activities or any hobby that requires you haul around a lot of gear Indeed, this is something that gets totally missed by advocates of on-demand self-driving yadda yadda, because they live in densely populated cities and socialise and get entertainment almost exclusively online. That demographic is overrepresented on HN. Most people who own cars who might use them to commute during the week use them for fun stuff at the weekends too, for which glorified taxis are just not suitable.
    • funwithjustin 9y ago
      That's what Zipcar (or its competitors) is for. In most cases us city-dwellers still save money on short-term rentals over the cost of car ownership.
      • gaius 9y ago
        A zipcar’s not really for the use case of a weekend away tho’. It would be a traditional rental like Hertz or Avis, then you have to pick it up the night before, load it, then when you get back late unload it, drop it off, then get back home by some other means...
        • xapata 9y ago
          Why not? I use ZipCar for long weekends frequently.
          • ebragg09 9y ago
            well, because it has a max 180 mile per day limit with per-mile costs above that. So if you're staying overnight, that's one thing, but doing a 2 hour, go kayaking, 2 hours back type drive doesn't work.
            • xapata 9y ago
              2 hours each way for a day-trip?! I'm always shocked that people suggest that much driving as a proportion of the total trip time.
  • deepGem 9y ago
    Depends on where you live. Even with kids, you don't need a car in London. You can rent cars over the weekends. Hauling groceries is a PITA but with a good backpack, this is also solved. If you live in some place like Barbican, everything is around your doorstep, so no need to haul groceries. The downside - you pay higher rents. Outdoor activities - you can rent over the weekends unless you are kayaking, skiing or climbing and don't want to haul gear in and out of your car every time you reach home.
  • acranox 9y ago
    It still depends where you live. A city with good public transit and cycling infra structure and stuff you can walk to, still means you can have a kid and not need a car.
• jorblumesea 9y ago
  I think it really depends on your lifestyle. I love to hike, snowshoe and ski. Public transit to Snoqualmie doesn't exist and lyfts would be incredibly expensive, if they would even take you there. Not even factoring in lugging heavy equipment around. If you stay in the city almost all the time it's probably great. The minute you want to do something outside of the city it's impossible without a car.
  • fpgaminer 9y ago
    Rent a car for the weekend? It's like $50/day, so only $3k/yr to do it once a day per week. (Not factoring in the added cost of gas, or the discounts you can get by regularly renting a car and getting your own non-owner insurance)
    • jorblumesea 9y ago
      I would never want to bring a rental car into a snow covered pass or an icy parking lot. Too much liability. Good suggestion, probably good for a day hike or otherwise.
      • shafyy 9y ago
        Why not just get the insurance on top when renting to cap your liability?
        • jorblumesea 9y ago
          The entire idea is to be low cost, so when you start tacking on all these fees kinda defeats that purpose. At some point you will get to the point where it's the same cost to rent vs own.
          • shafyy 9y ago
            It depends on how much you use it I guess. But the average person surely doesn't go out ice hiking every weekend.
• foolfoolz 9y ago
  i think those numbers are describing a lifestyle and not what it means to own a car. many people who own a car will not pay that much for parking. especially if you live 5 miles away from work. assuming you don’t drive to work and park on the street at home your numbers are down to $4100/yr. but your insurance number looks 2x too big, and maintenance i would drop by half, i think more realistic is a about $3,000/yr
  • wil421 9y ago
    Agreed my company is currently moving close to the center of Atlanta. It’s going to cost $15 a week to commute by train for the minimum 3 days to the office. Employee will match half so it only costs $7.50 a week out of pocket. I own a car bet it much more feasible to ride the train and walk briefly. Parking is free and only a mile to the closest train stop. My employers building has a free parking deck. Does Seattle not have free parking decks is some larger buildings?
    • Symbiote 9y ago
      When I visited Atlanta a few years ago, I was the only white guy on the train, and possibly also the only person with a professional job. A couple of people asked me what I was doing! If that's changed, that's a great improvement for Atlanta. Although I would walk or cycle the mile to the station.
      • ebragg09 9y ago
        I've never had the experience of being the only white person on the trains (though I still often am the only white person on a lot of the bus routes I take), and they're generally pretty crowded with all walks at this point. The CEO who took over in 2012 has had it revenue-positive every year and in 2016 ATL voters passed a tax increase to build out more, so it's got the public support now as well.
  • goialoq 9y ago
    Where is parking <$130 month (or the equivalent if you purchase enough real estate to hold your car)? 5miles is very close to downtown. Street parking sort of works, if you get enough mercy from your neighbors not parking on-street.
• nostrademons 9y ago
  Really shows how much subsidized parking can affect the equation. I've never had to pay for parking at my residence, and the only time I had to pay for parking was a 20-month stint working in downtown Boston. Cut those out and costs go down by $4500/year, over half. I spent about $25/month on gas (for most of my career, I've worked either 2 miles away from home or 20 feet away). Insurance has consistently been about $1000/year. Maintenance was at basically zero for many years, but now that my car is 9 years old $1000/year is about right. Including the amortized cost of the car (which was $16,700 OTD new), I've spent maybe $3000/year on it. That's a generous estimate - the car still has some resale value (though I intend to run it into the ground), so it may be even less.
  • revelation 9y ago
    You're still paying >$5k? for something you apparently barely use at $25 gas per month. That is a lot of dollars to soothe anxiety.
    • s0rce 9y ago
      25$/month, assuming 35mpg and $2.75/gallon, is 320mi/month, that's a lot of trips to the grocery store or a trip to go skiing/vacation for a weekend. Might not be cheaper than rentals but depending on your situation it can be much more convenient and not much more expensive.
    • nostrademons 9y ago
      Probably about $2.5K/year all-in, once depreciation and maintenance are included. Maybe $25K total. I don't consider that to be all that bad. My car has about 30K miles on it, which is ridiculously low for a 9-year-old car, but that's the virtue of living 2 miles away from work, biking in the summer, and walking to the grocery store. Lyft prices in the SF/BayArea are $1.21/mile, so just on mileage, I would've paid $36K. Add in the $2/trip base fair, $5 minimum, and any surge pricing or time waiting, and it could add up to $50K very easily, double what I've spent on my car. People look at $16K for a car or $3k/year and think "those are big numbers", but it turns out that spending $10/day on individual transportation rides adds up very quickly, such that you end up paying way over what the large capital expense would've cost. When I was working in downtown Boston, I did a hybrid car/train commute, and it easily added up to that ($5 parking at Alewife + $2.50 for the train each way) - it was still cheaper than driving, but only because parking in downtown Boston is ridiculous.
• geocar 9y ago
  Well, if you had a car, you might live further out, which lowers your cost on parking (near your house) and some of your other costs of living.
  • revelation 9y ago
    Think about how much money you could be making on the cost of living arbitrage if you commute 3 hours one way from nowhere to your high paid SF software job. But of course adding time to your daily commute, spent in a car particularly, is a great way to trade off a little bit of money gained from expenses pushed into externalities against general happiness.
• usrusr 9y ago
  Tried becoming a car person once, ignoring all that math, just as a luxury. The cheapest old banger is more of a "luxury car" then a Lexus if you don't have much use for a car. Turns out it's impossible for me, cars just don't stay operational through sufficiently longs stretches of disuse.
  • jimmaswell 9y ago
    My car sat for a year before I got it and it was fine. It depends on the car and conditions.
    • usrusr 9y ago
      Much depends on what you do with the battery. Physically disconnecting goes a long way, trickle charge even further. But street parking and serious mothballing don't go well together, particularly when you never know ahead of time wether your next drive will be tomorrow or next year. There are cheap solar trickle chargers that supposedly solve the problem for street parking, but modern car electronics often require some rewiring to hook them up. In the end it's not an unsolvable problem, but a strong motivator to give in to reason and just take a rental when needed.
      • jimmaswell 9y ago
        The battery was fine in mine too, and not disconnected. I had to jump it but it still had enough charge for the radio etc. and I've been using the same battery since.
  • wutbrodo 9y ago
    I've never had a car and my roommate ditched his car shortly after moving in with me. It's a complete no brainer unless you live in a poorly-designed area[1]. He actually likes driving, but with a small fraction of the money he's saving relative to owning a car, he rents a sportscar once a month and we drive somewhere beautiful (one of our favorite choices is the oceanside cliffs near us). [1] To be fair, the US wreaked havoc across its cities in the 60s and 70s, so it's a lot more common here than it should be.
• wil421 9y ago
  Do you ever leave the city or go on vacation? Exploring the outdoors in the Pacific Northwest would be priority number 1 if I lived in Seattle. You also need to factor in the freedom a car gives you. Time is the limiting factor.
  • latencyloser 9y ago
    To add on: I just moved to Seattle from Chicago where I lived for several years. In Chicago, I used strictly public transportation or walked, it worked great because I never needed or wanted to leave the "city" in general. If I did, it was infrequent enough to warrant renting a car. All my errands could be done on the walk home from the office as well. Now that I'm in Seattle (well, Bellevue), the beauty of the PNW has me going on several hours of driving and exploration every weekend. Good luck doing that without a personal vehicle. Also, my commute is agonizing, but even in a personal car it's still orders of magnitude more time efficient than the public transportation options, and I can get all my random errands for the family done during. I'm probably preaching to the choir by replying to you, but my car is now an indispensable part of my life. I could only imagine not having it being in the densest and most "isolated" American cities at this point (Chicago, Manhattan possibly).
• viral007 9y ago
  + Cost of car, a depreciating asset.
  • ams6110 9y ago
    Buy used. Makes the bulk of the depreciation someone else's problem.
• ProfessorLayton 9y ago
  Miles driven x .545 would be a simpler way to calculate the costs of driving. It is the reimbursement rate the IRS uses, and is supposed to be all-inclusive to the car itself. This number is continuously updated, and there is a high incentive to keep it as accurate as possible for most people.[1] [1] https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/standard-mileage-rates-for-2018-up-from-rates-for-2017 https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/standard-mileage-rates-for-2018...
  • TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    That's an average, though. It varies considerably depending on many factors. Generally speaking, the less that you drive, the higher the per mile cost will be because there are fewer miles to amortize the fixed costs over.
• rubber_duck 9y ago
  Never owned a car, as my income increased considered getting one this summer as a luxury, mostly trips and stuff, but didn't have a license and it takes a couple of months to get one here. After thinking about it more I got myself a motorcycle - wanted to get one when I was younger but couldn't afford it - can still do trips, parking/mobility is better and I live in a place where I can ride 10 out of 12 months a year. Has been insanely fun so far although scary as well - an idea to consider if you're in this situation.
• odammit 9y ago
  I’ve been carless in LA for a year. I walk to most things I need and work from home, so I’m lucky. Otherwise I bike or Uber/Lyft based on price. I also have an Amex platinum which gets you $200 of Uber credit a year. The one thing you’re missing from your calculation is parking tickets! In LA it can easily creep up on you :) Also, no time spent parking and you can do work emails while someone else drives.
• ams6110 9y ago
  In your situation I would not own a car either. Part of the reason I would never live in a big city again.
• gglover 9y ago
  I'm a 25 year old with a beater car 5 miles from downtown Seattle. Here are my real numbers: Parking: For me the bus is around 10 minutes slower each way. I just take that most days. Home parking: Free on-street parking Gas: $40/month * 12 = $480 Registration: $200 (May be a bit higher now with ST3) Insurance: $700 Maintenance: $1000 sounds about right For around $2380 / year. Well worth it for the freedom it gives me imo.
  • Improvotter 9y ago
    Cause we're all giving numbers here. Let me give you my numbers for my bike. I rent my bike and got a train subscription. I pay about 50 EUR a year for my bike and 100 EUR a year for my train subscription. I have a car, but I'm not the one paying insurance on it anymore (passed on to other family member). The car was 5000 EUR used (Volkswagen Polo) which was bought 7-8 years ago and it was a 5 year old car back then. Right now it's really getting old, but only needed a fix last year or so and new tires this year (not my concern anymore though). But it's safe to say those cost about 800 EUR in total. The car insurance is what I'd guess 400 EUR. I'm glad that I live in a city where biking is the #1 priority, I wouldn't feel safe biking in the US. It's also a lot cheaper!
    • romwell 9y ago
      >100 EUR a year for my train subscription. You don't just live in a city where biking is a priority, you live in a country where you can actually get to places by train - which the US, for all intents and purposes, is not. This is an apples-to-oranges comparison.
    • ghostly_s 9y ago
      100 EUR per year for a train pass? Wow. I pay $100 USD per month for a CTA pass in Chicago...and that's about the best transit situation you'll find in the US.
      • kasey_junk 9y ago
        Just for context this is the all you can eat monthly plan for the CTA and the suburban bus system. It represents something like 50 per ride, no transfer train trips per month.
• gnarbarian 9y ago
  Sounds like the real expensive thing is living in Seattle.
  • goialoq 9y ago
    Coincidentally, that's also where the jobs that pay for expensive living are.
  • btgeekboy 9y ago
    For someone working in the industry, it’s still one of the best bang-for-your-buck tech hubs.
• javiramos 9y ago
  I reached exactly the same conclusion (I have no kids etc.). I commute to work via Uber/Lyft Pool for ~$450/month. Owning a car in Boston would mean: - Parking $315/month - Gas $75/month - Insurance $1,500/year - Car Lease $200/month - Maintenance $1,000/year - Miscellaneous Boston registraction fees etc. $500/year - TOTAL $840/month For me, owning a car makes no sense.
• deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
• praneshp 9y ago
  UberX/Lyft or Line/Pool? I do Lyft Line from train station to home when my wife can't pick me up, and I dislike it. I wonder if you are factoring that in, or maybe you're used to it.
• jordache 9y ago
  lifestyle as a variable of reasonable lyft fares? eeee
• usaphp 9y ago
  > With a 5 mile commute, public transit 3 days a week plus Uber/Lyft 4 days a week is cheaper, hands down. Uber/Lyft 7 days a week cuts it closer but is still cheaper. But you also have to go to grocery store, go out with friends, do errands which most of the time are scattered across the city, it can take multiple rides per day as well. Also if you have kids you should add dropping them to school and other stuff. So you end up spending lots of time waiting for uber and paying for this little trips.
  • cannonedhamster 9y ago
    I walked 5 miles or more when I lived in the city (Boston). If Seattle has any of the amenities of Boston there's a grocery store within walking distance. I always took the T (subway) everywhere. I can't imagine paying for someone to drive me places in the city, it was just never needed even for things like you're talking about.
    • usaphp 9y ago
      It's kind of hard to walk with your hands full of grocery bags if you are shopping for a family of 3+ especially in the winter.
      • hycaria 9y ago
        Shopping trolleys are a thing.
  • megy 9y ago
    I do all of that on a bike (well, not the kid stuff). It is not like it is impossible to live without a car.
    • usaphp 9y ago
      In the winter too? I thought we were not talking about what's possible and what's not, I thought op was talking about equal convenience for him of owning a car vs using uber/lyft.
• hnonlyforu 9y ago
  I agree it varies by place. I live in Charlottesville, and it is not very plausible if none of your friends have a car. The public transit is only convenient in downtown and in UVA, but none of the supermarkets are inside the city. Supermarkets, many restaurants, and malls are all along the state high way. It is ridiculous for a walker, because sometimes you cannot walk across the street to get to the McDonald's right in your eye sight. No crosswalk for a few miles. Walmart is 15 minutes drive away from the city. But to take busses, you will need about 45 minutes to an hour to get there,depending on your timing. There are closer grocery stores, but the busses still take much much longer than a car. I will be willing to ditch my car anytime, if either there is a grocery store in city, or a faster public transportation method is available.
  • hycaria 9y ago
    There seems to be a weekly farmers market from april to december downtown.
• Eric_WVGG 9y ago
  "That said, I live in Seattle, where there is good public transportation." boy are you in for a treat when you move to a city with good public transportation!
  • thewhitetulip 9y ago
    I don't understand why every country/state/city doesn't have superb public transportation. I live in a city in India which has a pathetic public transportation system. The buses are irregular and you can't rely on it at all.
    • badpun 9y ago
      I've recently read that only something like 3% of Indian population pays any income taxes - that's probably one of major reasons.
      • clw8 9y ago
        What the actual fuck? Is this by design or do a billion people all manage to game the system?
        • carlmr 9y ago
          I've been to India, and I'm quite sure nobody I met except maybe the hotels serving tourists, was paying taxes. Shops, restaurants, businesses all only accepted cash. And they also never give a receipt. So yeah, 3% sounds about right.
        • executesorder66 9y ago
          I live in South Africa. It's a similar situation here. The problem is that most people are so poor, they legally don't have to pay income tax. (because they are unemployed or have a really shitty income)
        • badpun 9y ago
          From what I've read, most people make so little that they're exempt from the tax altogether.