26 ms·

Leap: An Online Community for Women

139 points by stablemap 9y ago

cbcowans 9y ago
Hi! I'm the creator of Leap. Glad to answer questions here.
- aiiane 9y ago
  Why exclusive to Facebook users?
  - EGreg 9y ago
    Perhaps because Facebook provides an easy and fairly reliable way to determine someone's sex. Many projects including dating sites have relied on it to do authentication for this reason.
    - aphextron 9y ago
      And it’s awful. This trend needs to stop. Facebook is an ad tracking platform, not a universal authentication scheme.
    - problems 9y ago
      I fail to see how it'd be good for this use - do they require a number of friends or something? I have 4 Facebook accounts for faking out exactly this kind of stuff, but none with any real information.
      - EGreg 9y ago
        Presumably most people are not like you and have only one account. The site can make sure you have had an account for at least a year and your sex is female. Otherwise you may want to fake it to get in. It's the most reliable "easy" way I know to determine this info. I remember an app called Lulu which did the same.
    - glorkk 9y ago
      A sizeable and growing portion of the population refuses to have any dealing with this shady corporation. Facebook is not a universal authentication platform and never will be.
      - beat 9y ago
        There isn't a universal authentication platform. Facebook is closer than most. And Facebook is strong for this in the interest of getting something out the door, to be improved later.
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    Leap members use their true identities, so when someone new joins I make sure they are a real person. I chose Facebook auth to get started, but I'm planning to add additional auth mechanisms down the road.
  - SrCodeMonkey 9y ago
    What problem are they trying to solve that can't be solved by a closed Facebook group? Do we really need another social network?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- Operyl 9y ago
  What’s the current queue look like, how long does it take for someone to get invited? How does moderation go on, what if a discourse gets way off track? There’s no perfect community, but I have high hopes here.
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    I'm glad to hear it! I look up each person who signs up for the beta to make sure they're a real person, so it depends how many people request access and how fast I go. So far discourse has not gone off track. When participants disagree they've been able to discuss their views constructively and assume the best in each other. That's something I'm most excited about. I expect there will be cases where that's not true though, so members who don't contribute in a net positive way will lose access to the community.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  I am really conflicted about this. On one hand, I think that it will provide a valuable resource for a large group of people, which is good! On the other hand, an online tech community designed solely for men would be met with hate and massive backlash. If equality is our goal, how will self-segregation help meet that goal?
  - kdelok 9y ago
    Not involved with Leap at all, but I've always felt like this sort of thing depends on how much discrimination your group is subjected to. Self-segregation like this provides a forum for constructive discussion, particularly if your group is still subject to discrimination (e.g. being undermined by the dominant group, intentionally targeted by trolls, threatened or cajoled). I don't know if it's a useful analogy, but I consider it akin to global warming being discussed by climate scientists in a totally public forum. The volume of anti-global warming sentiment and media coverage (both for and against) would completely disrupt such attempts.
  - lynnetye 9y ago
    While I understand this perspective, I also know that being a women in tech can feel incredibly lonely. Growing up, I was always comfortable being the only girl in a big group of guys. In fact, I still consider myself to be quite the tomboy. However, being the only woman in a room of 100 men at a meet-up can feel pretty isolating. (Especially when a dozen of them assume that I'm a recruiter. I'm not. I'm a web developer.) Many of my peers are the only woman on their >10-person engineering team. In my mind, Leap is a valuable resource for a not-large-enough group of people, and will hopefully contribute to growing the numbers of that group. Ps. There has already been discussion on Leap about inviting men to the community, and I'm sure it'll continue to be discussed! I don't think anyone wants to draw lines in the sand or create a "Us vs. Them" mentality. I do think everyone wants to have at least one person, one ally, in their corner though.
    - sievebrain 9y ago
      What? Of course you want to draw lines in the sand and create an us Vs them mentality. That's the entire point of the large efforts you are making to exclude men. Don't deny reality. It doesn't help you or your ever more dubious "cause". You have created an explicitly sexist community.
- seany 9y ago
  Is there going to be support for moderation transparency? Moderation bias seems to be an issue in these kinds of "closed" discussion platforms.
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    I expect moderation will evolve as the community evolves, but I don't plan to limit what people choose to talk about so long as participants treat each other with respect.
    - Crespyl 9y ago
      It's good to hear that you don't plan on being heavy handed, but as someone interested in online communities and governance, I'd still be interested in the answer to seany's question about moderator transparency. Do you intend to have admin/moderator actions visible in some way to the users? If posts are edited or removed (by users or mods) does that get indicated in any way? Different approaches to these issues can significantly affect how a community grows, and I'm always very interested to hear how new sites choose to approach the problem.
      - cbcowans 9y ago
        Thanks for the follow up. Leap is very young and I want the community guidelines to evolve as we learn and as the community changes. To that end – I don't plan to edit other people's comments, but I could imagine deleting an offensive one. If I do intervene in a conversation, I plan to do it transparently. That likely means posting on Leap about the actions I took.
- probably_wrong 9y ago
  I'll go straight to the difficult questions: 1. I thought gender-based discrimination was illegal. How is Leap not illegal? 2. One of the main objections of "gentleman's clubs" was that their (male) members had access to important networking contacts, putting women in unequal foot in an unfair way when it came to businesses. Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way?
  - rev_bird 9y ago
    >Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way? This assumption completely disregards the measurable advantage men have in the tech community. If you have identical programs, one for a historically disenfranchised group, and one for the group that's been in power for decades, only one of those programs is shitty. edit: "Advantage" was a poor choice of words, but since it's been quoted in replies I'll leave it. I meant something more like "given the gender disparities in the tech community."
    - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
      > This assumption completely disregards the measurable advantage men have in the tech community. There is obviously an imbalance in the industry, but can you please provide proof that this is due to an advantage that men have? > If you have identical programs, one for a historically disenfranchised group, and one for the group that's been in power for decades, only one of those programs is shitty. Why would fighting racism with racism or sexism with sexism be a productive method of correcting imbalances? Wouldn't that just fuel and maintain the disdain between groups?
      - rev_bird 9y ago
        >Why would fighting racism with racism or sexism with sexism be a productive method of correcting imbalances? Wouldn't that just fuel and maintain the disdain between groups? Is this the "all lives matter!" response to this project? It's not a crime to point out that some groups are poorly represented in an industry. Are you saying the solution to "hey, women feel isolated in the tech industry" is to say "Well, let's figure out how to include men too"? If women felt like their discussions were being treated fairly in public forums, they'd have stayed in them.
- megamindbrian2 9y ago
  Aren't you worried that someday women will be expected to do ALL the work? Both have kids, AND write the software that supports the world's economy?
- byproxy 9y ago
  I'm XY and won't be able to contribute to the community, which I have no problem with. However, I do like to read fruitful conversation (via hackernews, reddit, online comment platforms, etc.). I suppose readership would also be private and limited to women? I definitely understand why that'd be the case, but it does seem to make it more difficult for me to get a balanced perspective from platforms that are majority men.
  - allergeek 9y ago
    It would be indeed interesting to be able to make some conversations public (upon some agreement), or to start public threads, although in read-only mode for non-members. It also may give a clue to other women as to how exactly may the Leap community be beneficial for them, or what’s the culture like, before they decide if they need to join.
- fruzz 9y ago
  Thank you for doing this. I've definitely noticed a dynamic at play in male-dominated soft eng spaces online that silences women. It has to do with men's behaviour and shitty comments in those spaces. Not all men, of course, but enough men - and almost exclusively men. It's why I'm no longer on r/programming. I'm tired of having to put up with that and I'm glad you created this space. I look forward to checking it out.
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    I'm glad you like the concept and are going to check it out! Look forward to having you join.
- kdelok 9y ago
  (not for me, so I'm not sure how much I could respond to questions) Is Leap for people who are i) female, ii) identify as a woman, or iii) both? I ask because I have a few friends who are biologically female, but genderqueer (by which they mean that they don't prescribe to the cultural stuff that is usually attached to gender). Would this be suitable for them? As a more general note, since this looks to be a community that's about inclusion and addressing discrimination, it might be worth taking care not to conflate "female" and "woman".
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    Thank you for asking. iii – My goal is to create an inclusive community. I'd say Leap is suitable for your friend. I am also learning as I go, so would love feedback!
    - sievebrain 9y ago
      Again! Your goal is not to create an inclusive community. Your goal is to create an exclusive community. Look, if want to create a female only website then go for it. But you have to own your actions. You can't exclude half the population then claim you care about inclusion. That is rank hypocrisy bordering on the delusional - you are doing the exact opposite of what you claim.
      - dang 9y ago
        I warned you once in this thread already (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16161338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16161338), but you've managed to break yet another HN site guideline with this comment, the one that reads as follows: Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Obviously Cadran was talking about making Leap inclusive within the scope of being a forum for women—that's what the question was about. You don't have to agree with any particular view to see that, it just takes basic respect. If you can't or won't abide by the rules here, please stop commenting until you can.
        9y ago
- Sephr 9y ago
  Do you allow intersex people to join Leap?
- msla 9y ago
  How does your site cater to the nonbinary and trans communities? Does the fact you apparently require participation in Facebook to register signal that you agree with Facebook's policy of outing trans and gender-non-conforming individuals in the enforcement of its "real name" policy? (Not to imply that's anywhere near the only problem with Facebook's "real name" policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_cont... )
- scarmig 9y ago
  Hi Cadran! I'm a male identified person, and I think Leap's a great idea. A couple questions: 1) If someone put you on the spot and asked you to pigeonhole Leap, would you say it's intended to be a Hacker News for women? 2) Has there been any discussion of a observer/lurker status for men? 3) Do participants primarily shift their time spent on other (open?) tech/social forums towards Leap, or do they increase their total amount of time spent on forums to make space for it?
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    1. Nope! HN is for everyone. Leap has its own unique UI and culture. 2. We haven't discussed a view only public mode in any depth. The idea of eventually allowing men to join has come up on Leap. No idea if that will happen though. 3. I don't survey users about that so I can't say with any accuracy. I also expect it depends on the person.
- tbv 9y ago
  Can you support alternate forms of identity verification? I'd like to join, but I don't have a Facebook account.
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    Not yet, but I plan to in the future.
    - sn 9y ago
      Here are some ideas: lobste.rs has a invite system where a person who invites someone may potentially be kicked if the person they invite is a problem. See https://lobste.rs/about#invitations https://lobste.rs/about#invitations Organize a booth or representative at women-focused tech events like FFC or GHC, or have events/meetups for Leap members to meet face-to-face where prospective members are also invited. The invite system would make this easier to implement.
- booleandilemma 9y ago
  Hi, Are transgender females allowed?
  - antisthenes 9y ago
    Why would the answer to this ever be no? If you identify as female, you should obviously be allowed.
- chaostheory 9y ago
  Overall I feel that this is a good idea. When it comes to harassment, people tend to keep it quiet for various reasons, among them fear and embarrassment. While things have changed for the better recently, any venue that helps people speak up about their experience is a good thing. Of course like everything else, there are trade offs, especially when this community is female only... While as a male I was aware of the existence of gender discrimination and harassment, I did not realize how ignorant I was of the subject and how terrible the situation was, until I read Susan Fowler's account at Uber. It was a paradigm change for me. How will Leap mitigate from potentially becoming a closed echo chamber? i.e. will this limit needed but hard discussions between the sexes? How does Leap prevent that?
- sukhadatkeereo 9y ago
  Is there a way to join Leap for people who don't use facebook?
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    Not yet but I am planning to add other auth mechanisms in the future. If you send me a note at leap at ycombinator dot com I will let you know when I do. Thanks and sorry for that!
- purefunction 9y ago
  I'd like to join but I refuse to use Facebook. Please add a different option. Thanks :)
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    Thank you for the feedback!
- msla 9y ago
  I notice you refuse to answer questions regarding trans and gender-non-conforming people in general. Is your community trans-exclusionary?
- msla 9y ago
  I have a question you might answer: Given the disparity in different races being able to participate, will any special consideration be given to people of color in this group?
- gravypod 9y ago
  What would happen if a man lied to gain access to the community, became a respected member of the community, and was eventually discovered to be a man? Would that person be banned from the forum?
thenayr 9y ago
This is wonderful!! Side note, prepare for HN backlash...neckbeards get really triggered by this stuff.
- rinchik 9y ago
  Last time I checked generalizing and marginalizing a group of people was pretty bad and somewhat dumb, no? this comment should be flagged
- dang 9y ago
  We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
deleted 9y ago
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lynnetye 9y ago
I've been a member of Leap for many months now, and I have been amazed by the incredible displays of women helping women in this online community. I've become personal friends with a handful of women that I've met through Leap, and wish that Leap existed years ago when I first entered (and felt lost navigating) the tech scene. Thanks for creating this, @cbcowans. It is already a huge success.
egamirorrim 9y ago
What if i identify as female?
- btcctb 9y ago
  That's a really good question actually and shows the problem with sites like this (especially when connected with Facebook)
  - yarrel 9y ago
    I don't know why you're being downvoted. This is a legitimate concern.
  - cbcowans 9y ago
    I'm not using Facebook's definition of sex to include or exclude anyone. The link to Facebook is so I can check that each new member is real. Anyone who identifies as a woman is invited to join.
    - actuallyalys 9y ago
      Do you use the Facebook link to verify that the person is female? I'm trans and out as a woman in a lot of places, including at the tech company where I work, but not on Facebook.
      - cbcowans 9y ago
        I do all verification manually. Please send me a note at cadran at ycombinator.com and we can discuss further.
        actuallyalys 9y ago
        Thanks!
- SolaceQuantum 9y ago
  Wouldn't you then count as a woman? EDIT: If you're not "out" as trans I don't see why you'd use this service that would ask you for your real name and identity. If you are "out" as trans then you're just another woman, I would think, and would do just fine.
allergeek 9y ago
Direct sign-up link: https://leap.ycombinator.com https://leap.ycombinator.com
etiene 9y ago
seems wonderful! just requested a membership :) I've been part of some online tech communities for women, but I found they were too US-centric and it was difficult for me to obtain value from it, hoping Leap will be different
- cbcowans 9y ago
  Great! Look forward to having you join!
bischofs 9y ago
I am a bit triggered. This segregation stuff does not make sense to me, it almost feels like prison rules - keep genders/races away from each other because if they interact it will probably be violent. I wondered what would happen if I created a community where the core culture was set by women, and the software and product decisions were also made by women -> This also seems strange to me and counterproductive. If we build a society where any interaction happens without confrontations against the people that may be causing the issues, in this case "men", then how are we to make progress? Do men and women think differently about the merits of different software technologies or not? Even when members have opposing views, they’ve given each other the benefit of the doubt and continue to talk productively. -> Are you implying that men are incapable of this? Or that an environment where men and women interact is incapable of achieving this? Seems regressive...
- glorkk 9y ago
  I’m not trolling. The whole idea of viewing individuals primarily as members of an arbitrary group is repugnant and has no place in the tech industry. I hope this project fails.
  - rev_bird 9y ago
    I can't imagine why a group wouldn't want you in their project.
    - glorkk 9y ago
      A group does not “want” anything. Innovation comes from exchange of ideas between individuals, not from arbitrary groups living behind walled gardens.
      - rev_bird 9y ago
        >A group does not "want" anything. I disagree. A group of women is saying they feel marginalized and want to develop a community of support. Men, particularly ones in this awful comment section are saying "NO FAIR!!!" Those seem like groups, and they clearly want things.
RangerScience 9y ago
As a man, I cannot access your site, but I am still curious which community model you're using - reddit, old school forum, feed (FB, insta)...? Do you have anything you're doing that you find particularly interesting, beyond the self-selection?
- cbcowans 9y ago
  I put together a gif with some example content from Leap when I posted Leap on Product Hunt. You can check it out here if you like: https://www.producthunt.com/posts/leap-by-yc https://www.producthunt.com/posts/leap-by-yc. I'd describe it as a hybrid. I'd love to hear which bucket you'd put it in.
  - autotune 9y ago
    Not OP but to me it looks like a Reddit clone with a few more "fun features" with the emojis. It could very well be based off of reddit considering it's open source.
    - prawn 9y ago
      I find it interesting that the reply button in the stream/index is so prominent. I'd view that as too dominant a design decision, but then perhaps fostering discussion/involvement at the cost of style or following an off-site link is worth the trade off.
  - RangerScience 9y ago
    Not a whole lot to go on - what does it look like once comments are posts? But it looks like your topic discovery is "feed" style, although that could (I can't tell) lead into branching discussions (Reddit/HN) or sequential (FB/forums)
asllsa 9y ago
So, just to clarify: I, as a man, am being excluded, not because I am unskilled or any other bad quality other than my gender? Your community's design actively fosters hate and exclusion due to something I can not control. I hope your service, and others like it, crashes and burns, because it is a step backwards after we have come so far.
- iovrthoughtthis 9y ago
  How does it foster hate? That's a pretty big jump.
  - woahdudebro 9y ago
    I have discovered white nationalist groups who believe that other races are not inferior but merely different and thus they wish for a society where they are excluded. Does that foster hate?
    - rev_bird 9y ago
      You're conflating "excluded from a web forum" with "excluded from society." The whole point of groups like Leap is BECAUSE those members want everyone working together -- they're not in their clubhouse plotting the deportation of men, they're trying to figure out how to get on even footing in an industry that has been hostile to women for years.
      - woahdudebro 9y ago
        White nationalists tend to have a similar view of how they have been treated. I disagree personally but I don't allow my personal assumptions cloud my judgement when discussing these topics. Can you formulate an objective standard that allows an individual to determine what types of discrimination are moral or immoral?
        rev_bird 9y ago
        I disagree that white nationalists have a similar view, though it's interesting that someone linked to a forum where women can feel safe from attack in discussions and we're currently debating their similarities to neo-Nazis. The white nationalist stance (in general) is that racial hegemony, with their group at the top of the heap, is the preferential state of affairs. The stance of this group, as far as I can tell, is that gender equality is the preferential state. Those seem like very different things.
turinapple 9y ago
I'm a woman that's worked in tech since 2011... at times the discrimination and treatment I've faced has made me want to quit the industry all together. But every time I reached that point I thought - no, I'm not the one who should have to leave, it's the people -- usually men -- who have not shown empathy, kindness or compassion. The ones who have bullied me and harassed me and made inappropriate comments or advances. So many of these experiences I just buried inside until I was in the company of other people I trusted and felt safe to share. There hasn't really been an online forum where I felt safe to have these conversations until now. Now that Leap is here I have other people who get me who I can talk to about the stuff that is bugging me. With their help I can treat each day as new and keep moving forward with my career. If you don't understand why this community is important perhaps it's because you have had the privilege of never feeling like a second class citizen in the industry you work in.
- RangerScience 9y ago
  Please correct me if this is off-base, but... What you're describing has always seemed to me as an excellent example why women-only spaces are not necessarily about people-who-identify-as-women, but about people-who-others-identify-as-women. Other people treat you a certain way because of how they perceive you, and you want to have a place to talk about that with other people treated the same way. Does that sound at all correct?
- fruzz 9y ago
  I really wish your experience was unique. A colleague was groped. She didn't report it. It would have likely diminished her future prospects. A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers. She just had to laugh it off. Women at a previous employment reported not being taken as seriously as men in meetings, and being passed over for promotions in favour of less qualified men. A friend reported sexualized posters of women up in the office. In the chat of my company, a sexualized video of women was passed around. I'm trans, so my challenges are a bit different. I try to hide the fact that I'm trans during interviews. A lot of people are uncomfortable with trans people (26% of Canadian men are uncomfortable moving next to one), and with interviews to see if I'm socially a good fit, that can end it. I actually changed my name to an androgynous one as to not out myself. I get misgendered at work by people who do it on purpose. I also get touched inappropriately by a coworker. In all cases, what can you do to challenge these things without being seen as "the crazy one", "too sensitive", "party pooper", or whatever? Without hurting my finances? It's shit.
cirgue 9y ago
What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture? I ask because I think this is a cool project, but there is also the inescapable fact that at some point men and women will have to work together in engineering environments, and we still have a dearth of environments that foster those interactions.
- rev_bird 9y ago
  >What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture? I think this comment thread is a pretty good illustration of the problem. A group of women are saying, "hey, we think this is a beneficial project, for this reason and this other reason," and a bunch of men are saying "WRONG it's pretty much white supremacy except against men." Forums reflect their membership -- in an industry dominated by men, discussions will be slanted away from positions held by women unless compensatory measures are taken.
  - rarec 9y ago
    On the same token, a specifically male only group tends to get crucified. It's more of a confusion of double standards, perceived or otherwise. Sure, most groups end up de-facto male only, but you never see groups actively advertised as male only.
    - ambivalents 9y ago
      This once again reads as an illustration of the problem. This isn't an issue of double standards. You do understand the difference in experiences, right, between members of a group comprised and in support of a minority/systematically-unrepresented group, and a counterpart group comprised of a majority/the ones often perpetuating (even if indirectly) this imbalance?
      - rarec 9y ago
        I do. However, I'm not sure how that means that a subset of the majority cannot also have their own exclusive spaces while also allowing a minority to have the same. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a woman only support group and find the idea of Leap great. What is the problem you're stating, in this case, that a woman only group can solve that one comprised of men and women could not? Genuine question. If the answer is "Men cannot understand" that's fair, but a terrible simplification. You'll find most men are at least willing to try to understand, and by vilifying the majority and hiding in a smaller exclusionary group you may just end up worse off than before.
adfm 9y ago
We all need a safe space to come in from the cold. When you feel vulnerable, you want to communicate with friendly, like-minded people. However, you'll find more noise within an echo chamber and that jerks exist regardless of gender. This sort of gender-specific walled garden is nothing new and I suppose will always attract a certain stereotype. Here's an old Anthony Lewis post from 1994 that may sober folks on the idea: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/14/opinion/abroad-at-home-time-to-grow-up.html http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/14/opinion/abroad-at-home-tim... "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member" --Groucho Marx
- grasshopperpurp 9y ago
  >Michael Godwin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a public-interest law firm, made the same point -- if slightly less elegantly -- about the Santa Rosa case. People who objected to the computer message, he said, "should have called the guy who posted the message a jerk." Call an obnoxious speaker a jerk: what a useful formula, what an intelligent way to get the resentment off your chest without starting down the legal road to suppression of speech. It would have worked well, for example, in the notorious case of Prof. J. Donald Silva of the University of New Hampshire. I find this section to be a disturbing summation of the author's attitude on the subject. And, the Groucho Marx quote has no bearing on any of this; it's self-deprecation.
  - adfm 9y ago
    Do I find a mens club repugnant? Yes, but I do appreciate comfortable chairs. As for Groucho, I suppose the subtlety of his humor falls on deaf ears.
    - deleted 9y ago
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    - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
      So, how does it relate then? What did you add by including it? It's a famous quote, and I remember mentioning it to a college professor when we covered Poe's 'The Black Cat.' I'm all for learning. Please explain.
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ianwalter 9y ago
This is smart, natural, and a good use of tech. I hope your community succeeds.
- to_bpr 9y ago
  I agree. Male only entities are also smart and natural, and if tech based are a good use of that tech, right?
  - deleted 9y ago
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  - bigbluedots 9y ago
    Sure, if someone identifies a need for one? Even better, if you see an opportunity going missing in the market due to the lack of said entity, why not start one up?
mychael 9y ago
Can someone help me understand how this site is not sexist and discriminatory against men?
- rev_bird 9y ago
  You know how right now you're offended, and feeling left out just because of your gender? That's how some women in tech feel all the time. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16160940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16160940
  - spodek 9y ago
    That poster didn't seem offended to me. More curious. It's not obvious if the person is male or female or feeling left out. If some women feel that way anyway, are you suggesting that making more people feel that way helps or makes it not sexist? Tech pushes many people out, male and female. Even if the men in tech are the same, what about the men who would like to be in tech but were pushed out? Or are all men the same?
    - rev_bird 9y ago
      >Tech pushes many people out, male and female. Even if the men in tech are the same, what about the men who would like to be in tech but were pushed out? Or are all men the same? I'd wager most men "pushed out" of tech weren't fleeing sexism and gender-based isolation. This whole thing seems like looking at a team of 10 -- nine men and one woman -- and, when the woman says, "Gee, it'd be nice to have another woman to talk to," responding by saying "Well how about you just talk to us nine guys instead? Wouldn't that be just as good?"
  - oh_sigh 9y ago
    ...therefore the answer is to increase gender division? Should we also end racial violence by increasing racial violence?
    - rev_bird 9y ago
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DoreenMichele 9y ago
I have seen research that women who go to all female colleges tend to do better career-wise. So I don't think the idea of a female enclave as a means to inoculate women against problematic social norms is without merit. If you have never done this before, let me suggest that if you like the culture it currently has, you need to be really leery of making significant changes, such as deciding you will welcome men at some point after starting out as exclusively female. I have been a member of predominantly female groups. If there is a single man in them, they fail to be some kind of female empowerment zone. He will have the largest influence any time he posts and he will be backed by vicious female allies who will have a huge problem with any woman standing up to him. It is bizarre stuff. The one group I briefly belonged to that was initially exclusively female due to happenstance promptly crashed and burned when the first man joined. After ugly stuff went down, the list basically died. It was eventually disbanded, even though he quickly left because of the drama. The group never recovered from the debacle.
- ChiliConKanye 9y ago
  I have to wonder whether cause-and-effect have been reversed with respect to the female college findings. If my college experience is any indication, large numbers of women go to college specifically to find mates (or at least prioritize mate-finding over career prep), a phenomenon which would largely not exist at a women's-only college, and thereby skew the numbers in the way we observe.
- Iepoiel 9y ago
  Single-sex schools is generally perceived to give better results in grades and careers, with research to back it up. They are also perceived to give worse citizens in term of empathy and understanding. This theory is notoriously used by the military in many nations. By strengthening the in-group feeling you gain several traits such as increased confidence and feeling of belonging, and you increase tensions against the out-group which during a war is perceived as useful. Benefits and drawbacks, one which many nations has gone with banning the practice of single sex education. I don't disagree with it and I find the science behind it to be rather robust.
  - 9y ago
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
- grasshopperpurp 9y ago
  Sorry, I've tried to edit it, but I guess it's locked in.
  - dang 9y ago
    Hmm it should have been editable but I've done a thing to reopen it that should work. If you edit it I can delete my replies here.
    - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
      Thank you. I'll try again :)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
dominotw 9y ago
> they’ve found jobs, met mentors and made friends through the community. I am interested in finding a mentor and a supportive community. Is there a forum like this for general public.
- Anticapitalist 9y ago
  There's tons of them. Facebook groups, linked-in groups and subreddits for any discipline already exist and are waiting for you to join them.
- bigbluedots 9y ago
  You're already on one of them, although sometimes it may not feel that way :)
erinbk 9y ago
Is there an alternative Identity verification besides FacebooK?
- cbcowans 9y ago
  Not at the moment unfortunately. If you send me a note at leap at ycombinator dot com I will let you know when I add other auth mechanisms.
erinbk 9y ago
I want to join but I don't have a Facebook! What's next? (Besides getting a FacebooK)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
konogasa 9y ago
I expect this to be a controversial comment. I might just be overreacting. If you identify as a woman and are interested in joining Leap, please sign up for our beta here. I'm a trans woman who works in tech. I think it's dangerous to open a community for women to people who "identify as women". For one thing, there are plenty of women who do not "identify as women". For instance, older women may not really know what "identifying" is all about and just think "well, I'm a woman, what's to identify with?". There are also younger women who reject the idea that gender is an identity that you can choose at will. Obviously the invitation is meant to show that trans women are welcome. That's... moving, but I think it will only cause trouble. First you create a place especially for women, which is needed because like the announcement says, many women don't feel welcome, comfortable or even safe in online discussions that tend to escalate to shouting matches, typically among men (since it's the women leaving). Then you invite in to the community people who have been socialised as men, have grown up as men, have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers. That's defeating the whole point of a "community where the core culture [will be] set by women". I'm not trying to say that trans women are not women (I mean, duh; I'm one. Of both). But it should be kept in mind that most of us carry a great deal of baggage from the time we lived as men. Baggage that's very hard to get rid of and that many of us are not even aware of. In light of this, I think this big-hearted invitation to everyone who identifies as a woman, should be revised to something more cautious. I'd think, if someone "identifies as a woman" and works in technology, they'd respond to an invitation to just "women" anyway. To be perfectly clear, I'm totally not joining and I invite any other trans women who read this to think very carefully before doing so. Just think of all the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about trans stuff, or about anything.
- temp-dude-87844 9y ago
  Ultimately, all in-groups are decided by the consent of the majority of members, since everyone will self-select in the end: those who disagree will leave, those who begin to feel excluded will leave, those who feel unwelcome won't join. You can factor in leadership change and continuity as an additional complication, and the names and labels attached to the group will change, but the phenomenon remains the same. Societally, we have recently gotten to the point of being able to talk about the importance of having spaces where historically marginalized groups can forge a shared sense of belonging and build up the social support structures that historically less marginalized groups have long enjoyed, but I don't believe we've gotten to the point of being able to have a reasoned debate about edge cases where different groups overlap in some ways, yet diverge in others, along axes some might find incompatible. I also don't necessarily think that this is for the group leader to solve: this is a process that will take years of successes and blunders, and cause everyone involved to tackle an additional layer of delicate subjects that they may not be ready for. It appears that the group leader has laid out their vision, so for now, the points you raise will likely be addressed in a distributed fashion, in the minds of every member or prospective member, as time goes on.
briholt 9y ago
Yes, finally! I've always said, the way to end gender discrimination is to create a secretive forum that selects members based on gender discrimination.
- dang 9y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the HN guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
stefantalpalaru 9y ago
Poster slogan idea: "I need sexism because womyn and children should be sheltered from the harsh realities of the asphalt jungle."
mcintyre1994 9y ago
Honest question, does HN feel unwelcoming or uncomfortable for women? In particular: “I’ve found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly” do female HN users identify this with HN? Not saying Leap shouldn’t exist or anything, I’m just wondering if HN has these particular issues that I haven’t personally recognised.
- matt4077 9y ago
  There's a certain style to HN discussions that feels completely natural if you've been here long enough, yet may appear excessively antagonistic to people not used to it. Specifically, 90%+ of all comments are of the "you're wrong, because..." variety. Note that there's nothing wrong with such comments: they make up a large part of any group's pub conversations as well, for example. Yet there are other sentiments that are possibly underrepresented on HN: self-doubt, questions, or comments expanding on others' ideas come to mind. None of these can obviously be categorised as singularity "male" or "female". And there isn't much shouting going on, even metaphorically. Yet it may, from time to time, be a good idea to step back and examine common assumptions,
  - dang 9y ago
    I don't think you're being fair to the community here. It's true that such comments exist, and so do many other kinds. Many users share personal experiences. Many express vulnerability. Self-doubt, questions, and comments expanding on others' ideas are highly represented here, and we value them tremendously. I puzzled for years over why people would say things like "90%+ of all comments" that are so obviously (to me) untrue. But now I think I know why: those kinds of comments stand out more. It is as if they burn a deeper impression into the brain of the reader, usually a more painful one, so one comes to feel like they're "90%+" even when they are not. This perceptual loop is hard to break out of, so I've begun to see it as part of the moderator's job to inject new information when people post like this, in the hope of opening the loop back up. It's important for the community to see the good in itself and not just the bad. Otherwise why bother to take care of it? HN has problems with disrespect, incivility, aggression, but one must evaluate this from multiple sides. Every large, public, anonymous place on the internet has this problem, usually worse than HN does. The problem is systemic, but that doesn't make it hopeless, it just makes improvement slow. Every HN reader I've met has a love-hate relationship with the site. There's something deep in that, and a lot to say about it, but here's one that gets back to the topic of this thread. In my opinion, the aggressive dynamics of open internet argumentation relate to the gender dynamics of what tends to make women feel more or less welcome in a place. An atmosphere of hostility—or anything above a certain toxic baseline—causes many people to want nothing to do with a place or to feel deep ambivalence about it. I have that reaction myself, and my sense is that women tend to have it more than men do. This is what came to my mind when Cadran wrote that she started Leap because she doesn't feel welcome in "shouting matches".
sexydefinesher 9y ago
[flagged]
keyboardhitter 9y ago
I don't use Facebook, but I entered my LinkedIn and Github URLs globbed together. Really hoping for some leeway on this verification method. I would be happy to wait until other methods are created but can't say I was not disappointed.
DelaneyM 9y ago
Please allow signup verification by LinkedIn, many people do not have Facebook accounts. (I am one such person.)
neveroffensive 9y ago
I'm not convinced we are going about solving these kind of problems the right way. The community and discourse surrounding these topics in recent years seems to revolve around silos, and making the goals of certain contexts minimization of offense above all else. I don't disagree at all that these methods could achieve improved social integration and opportunity for most people. However, what about going the opposite direction? What if we decided to accept bullies and bad actors as a fundamental aspect of the system? What if we went even further, and accepted that even non-bullies may believe and act in ways which make us uncomfortable? The solution then would have to involve learning to cope with the complexities of life, rather than working tirelessly to eliminate them. To tie back into a concrete example. YC in the past has found that minority teams can feel intimidated by working around non-minority teams. What if instead of creating separate working environments to resolve this problem, we instead stated that the minority teams which had issues needed to work through those issues and learn to work in the common environment?
th1nkdifferent 9y ago
I have a naive question that needs answering. Is there a difference between a community for Women vs a community for anybody who wants a civil community? From the discussion, I gather that women like 'women only' communities primarily because there are no "ill behaved", threatening men that turn away women. Is there a place for a community for civilized human beings where everyone is included regardless of their gender identity? I think gender specific communities creates a mono culture and punishes men who are civilized and know how to behave around other gender(s). The real issue to address is to keep out the unruly crowd - regardless of gender.
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139 points by stablemap 9y ago

cbcowans 9y ago

Hi! I'm the creator of Leap. Glad to answer questions here.

aiiane 9y ago
Why exclusive to Facebook users?
- EGreg 9y ago
  Perhaps because Facebook provides an easy and fairly reliable way to determine someone's sex. Many projects including dating sites have relied on it to do authentication for this reason.
  - aphextron 9y ago
    And it’s awful. This trend needs to stop. Facebook is an ad tracking platform, not a universal authentication scheme.
  - problems 9y ago
    I fail to see how it'd be good for this use - do they require a number of friends or something? I have 4 Facebook accounts for faking out exactly this kind of stuff, but none with any real information.
    - EGreg 9y ago
      Presumably most people are not like you and have only one account. The site can make sure you have had an account for at least a year and your sex is female. Otherwise you may want to fake it to get in. It's the most reliable "easy" way I know to determine this info. I remember an app called Lulu which did the same.
  - glorkk 9y ago
    A sizeable and growing portion of the population refuses to have any dealing with this shady corporation. Facebook is not a universal authentication platform and never will be.
    - beat 9y ago
      There isn't a universal authentication platform. Facebook is closer than most. And Facebook is strong for this in the interest of getting something out the door, to be improved later.
- cbcowans 9y ago
  Leap members use their true identities, so when someone new joins I make sure they are a real person. I chose Facebook auth to get started, but I'm planning to add additional auth mechanisms down the road.
- SrCodeMonkey 9y ago
  What problem are they trying to solve that can't be solved by a closed Facebook group? Do we really need another social network?
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Operyl 9y ago
What’s the current queue look like, how long does it take for someone to get invited? How does moderation go on, what if a discourse gets way off track? There’s no perfect community, but I have high hopes here.
- cbcowans 9y ago
  I'm glad to hear it! I look up each person who signs up for the beta to make sure they're a real person, so it depends how many people request access and how fast I go. So far discourse has not gone off track. When participants disagree they've been able to discuss their views constructively and assume the best in each other. That's something I'm most excited about. I expect there will be cases where that's not true though, so members who don't contribute in a net positive way will lose access to the community.
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
I am really conflicted about this. On one hand, I think that it will provide a valuable resource for a large group of people, which is good! On the other hand, an online tech community designed solely for men would be met with hate and massive backlash. If equality is our goal, how will self-segregation help meet that goal?
- kdelok 9y ago
  Not involved with Leap at all, but I've always felt like this sort of thing depends on how much discrimination your group is subjected to. Self-segregation like this provides a forum for constructive discussion, particularly if your group is still subject to discrimination (e.g. being undermined by the dominant group, intentionally targeted by trolls, threatened or cajoled). I don't know if it's a useful analogy, but I consider it akin to global warming being discussed by climate scientists in a totally public forum. The volume of anti-global warming sentiment and media coverage (both for and against) would completely disrupt such attempts.
- lynnetye 9y ago
  While I understand this perspective, I also know that being a women in tech can feel incredibly lonely. Growing up, I was always comfortable being the only girl in a big group of guys. In fact, I still consider myself to be quite the tomboy. However, being the only woman in a room of 100 men at a meet-up can feel pretty isolating. (Especially when a dozen of them assume that I'm a recruiter. I'm not. I'm a web developer.) Many of my peers are the only woman on their >10-person engineering team. In my mind, Leap is a valuable resource for a not-large-enough group of people, and will hopefully contribute to growing the numbers of that group. Ps. There has already been discussion on Leap about inviting men to the community, and I'm sure it'll continue to be discussed! I don't think anyone wants to draw lines in the sand or create a "Us vs. Them" mentality. I do think everyone wants to have at least one person, one ally, in their corner though.
  - sievebrain 9y ago
    What? Of course you want to draw lines in the sand and create an us Vs them mentality. That's the entire point of the large efforts you are making to exclude men. Don't deny reality. It doesn't help you or your ever more dubious "cause". You have created an explicitly sexist community.
seany 9y ago
Is there going to be support for moderation transparency? Moderation bias seems to be an issue in these kinds of "closed" discussion platforms.
- cbcowans 9y ago
  I expect moderation will evolve as the community evolves, but I don't plan to limit what people choose to talk about so long as participants treat each other with respect.
  - Crespyl 9y ago
    It's good to hear that you don't plan on being heavy handed, but as someone interested in online communities and governance, I'd still be interested in the answer to seany's question about moderator transparency. Do you intend to have admin/moderator actions visible in some way to the users? If posts are edited or removed (by users or mods) does that get indicated in any way? Different approaches to these issues can significantly affect how a community grows, and I'm always very interested to hear how new sites choose to approach the problem.
    - cbcowans 9y ago
      Thanks for the follow up. Leap is very young and I want the community guidelines to evolve as we learn and as the community changes. To that end – I don't plan to edit other people's comments, but I could imagine deleting an offensive one. If I do intervene in a conversation, I plan to do it transparently. That likely means posting on Leap about the actions I took.
probably_wrong 9y ago
I'll go straight to the difficult questions: 1. I thought gender-based discrimination was illegal. How is Leap not illegal? 2. One of the main objections of "gentleman's clubs" was that their (male) members had access to important networking contacts, putting women in unequal foot in an unfair way when it came to businesses. Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way?
- rev_bird 9y ago
  >Wouldn't Leap be unfair in the same way? This assumption completely disregards the measurable advantage men have in the tech community. If you have identical programs, one for a historically disenfranchised group, and one for the group that's been in power for decades, only one of those programs is shitty. edit: "Advantage" was a poor choice of words, but since it's been quoted in replies I'll leave it. I meant something more like "given the gender disparities in the tech community."
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    > This assumption completely disregards the measurable advantage men have in the tech community. There is obviously an imbalance in the industry, but can you please provide proof that this is due to an advantage that men have? > If you have identical programs, one for a historically disenfranchised group, and one for the group that's been in power for decades, only one of those programs is shitty. Why would fighting racism with racism or sexism with sexism be a productive method of correcting imbalances? Wouldn't that just fuel and maintain the disdain between groups?
    - rev_bird 9y ago
      >Why would fighting racism with racism or sexism with sexism be a productive method of correcting imbalances? Wouldn't that just fuel and maintain the disdain between groups? Is this the "all lives matter!" response to this project? It's not a crime to point out that some groups are poorly represented in an industry. Are you saying the solution to "hey, women feel isolated in the tech industry" is to say "Well, let's figure out how to include men too"? If women felt like their discussions were being treated fairly in public forums, they'd have stayed in them.
megamindbrian2 9y ago
Aren't you worried that someday women will be expected to do ALL the work? Both have kids, AND write the software that supports the world's economy?
byproxy 9y ago
I'm XY and won't be able to contribute to the community, which I have no problem with. However, I do like to read fruitful conversation (via hackernews, reddit, online comment platforms, etc.). I suppose readership would also be private and limited to women? I definitely understand why that'd be the case, but it does seem to make it more difficult for me to get a balanced perspective from platforms that are majority men.
- allergeek 9y ago
  It would be indeed interesting to be able to make some conversations public (upon some agreement), or to start public threads, although in read-only mode for non-members. It also may give a clue to other women as to how exactly may the Leap community be beneficial for them, or what’s the culture like, before they decide if they need to join.
fruzz 9y ago
Thank you for doing this. I've definitely noticed a dynamic at play in male-dominated soft eng spaces online that silences women. It has to do with men's behaviour and shitty comments in those spaces. Not all men, of course, but enough men - and almost exclusively men. It's why I'm no longer on r/programming. I'm tired of having to put up with that and I'm glad you created this space. I look forward to checking it out.
- cbcowans 9y ago
  I'm glad you like the concept and are going to check it out! Look forward to having you join.
kdelok 9y ago
(not for me, so I'm not sure how much I could respond to questions) Is Leap for people who are i) female, ii) identify as a woman, or iii) both? I ask because I have a few friends who are biologically female, but genderqueer (by which they mean that they don't prescribe to the cultural stuff that is usually attached to gender). Would this be suitable for them? As a more general note, since this looks to be a community that's about inclusion and addressing discrimination, it might be worth taking care not to conflate "female" and "woman".
- cbcowans 9y ago
  Thank you for asking. iii – My goal is to create an inclusive community. I'd say Leap is suitable for your friend. I am also learning as I go, so would love feedback!
  - sievebrain 9y ago
    Again! Your goal is not to create an inclusive community. Your goal is to create an exclusive community. Look, if want to create a female only website then go for it. But you have to own your actions. You can't exclude half the population then claim you care about inclusion. That is rank hypocrisy bordering on the delusional - you are doing the exact opposite of what you claim.
    - dang 9y ago
      I warned you once in this thread already (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16161338 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16161338), but you've managed to break yet another HN site guideline with this comment, the one that reads as follows: Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Obviously Cadran was talking about making Leap inclusive within the scope of being a forum for women—that's what the question was about. You don't have to agree with any particular view to see that, it just takes basic respect. If you can't or won't abide by the rules here, please stop commenting until you can.
      - 9y ago
Sephr 9y ago
Do you allow intersex people to join Leap?
msla 9y ago
How does your site cater to the nonbinary and trans communities? Does the fact you apparently require participation in Facebook to register signal that you agree with Facebook's policy of outing trans and gender-non-conforming individuals in the enforcement of its "real name" policy? (Not to imply that's anywhere near the only problem with Facebook's "real name" policy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facebook_real-name_policy_cont... )
scarmig 9y ago
Hi Cadran! I'm a male identified person, and I think Leap's a great idea. A couple questions: 1) If someone put you on the spot and asked you to pigeonhole Leap, would you say it's intended to be a Hacker News for women? 2) Has there been any discussion of a observer/lurker status for men? 3) Do participants primarily shift their time spent on other (open?) tech/social forums towards Leap, or do they increase their total amount of time spent on forums to make space for it?
- cbcowans 9y ago
  1. Nope! HN is for everyone. Leap has its own unique UI and culture. 2. We haven't discussed a view only public mode in any depth. The idea of eventually allowing men to join has come up on Leap. No idea if that will happen though. 3. I don't survey users about that so I can't say with any accuracy. I also expect it depends on the person.
tbv 9y ago
Can you support alternate forms of identity verification? I'd like to join, but I don't have a Facebook account.
- cbcowans 9y ago
  Not yet, but I plan to in the future.
  - sn 9y ago
    Here are some ideas: lobste.rs has a invite system where a person who invites someone may potentially be kicked if the person they invite is a problem. See https://lobste.rs/about#invitations https://lobste.rs/about#invitations Organize a booth or representative at women-focused tech events like FFC or GHC, or have events/meetups for Leap members to meet face-to-face where prospective members are also invited. The invite system would make this easier to implement.
booleandilemma 9y ago
Hi, Are transgender females allowed?
- antisthenes 9y ago
  Why would the answer to this ever be no? If you identify as female, you should obviously be allowed.
chaostheory 9y ago
Overall I feel that this is a good idea. When it comes to harassment, people tend to keep it quiet for various reasons, among them fear and embarrassment. While things have changed for the better recently, any venue that helps people speak up about their experience is a good thing. Of course like everything else, there are trade offs, especially when this community is female only... While as a male I was aware of the existence of gender discrimination and harassment, I did not realize how ignorant I was of the subject and how terrible the situation was, until I read Susan Fowler's account at Uber. It was a paradigm change for me. How will Leap mitigate from potentially becoming a closed echo chamber? i.e. will this limit needed but hard discussions between the sexes? How does Leap prevent that?
sukhadatkeereo 9y ago
Is there a way to join Leap for people who don't use facebook?
- cbcowans 9y ago
  Not yet but I am planning to add other auth mechanisms in the future. If you send me a note at leap at ycombinator dot com I will let you know when I do. Thanks and sorry for that!
purefunction 9y ago
I'd like to join but I refuse to use Facebook. Please add a different option. Thanks :)
- cbcowans 9y ago
  Thank you for the feedback!
msla 9y ago
I notice you refuse to answer questions regarding trans and gender-non-conforming people in general. Is your community trans-exclusionary?
msla 9y ago
I have a question you might answer: Given the disparity in different races being able to participate, will any special consideration be given to people of color in this group?
gravypod 9y ago
What would happen if a man lied to gain access to the community, became a respected member of the community, and was eventually discovered to be a man? Would that person be banned from the forum?

thenayr 9y ago

This is wonderful!! Side note, prepare for HN backlash...neckbeards get really triggered by this stuff.

rinchik 9y ago
Last time I checked generalizing and marginalizing a group of people was pretty bad and somewhat dumb, no? this comment should be flagged
dang 9y ago
We've banned this account for violating the site guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

lynnetye 9y ago

I've been a member of Leap for many months now, and I have been amazed by the incredible displays of women helping women in this online community. I've become personal friends with a handful of women that I've met through Leap, and wish that Leap existed years ago when I first entered (and felt lost navigating) the tech scene. Thanks for creating this, @cbcowans. It is already a huge success.

egamirorrim 9y ago

What if i identify as female?

btcctb 9y ago
That's a really good question actually and shows the problem with sites like this (especially when connected with Facebook)
- yarrel 9y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted. This is a legitimate concern.
- cbcowans 9y ago
  I'm not using Facebook's definition of sex to include or exclude anyone. The link to Facebook is so I can check that each new member is real. Anyone who identifies as a woman is invited to join.
  - actuallyalys 9y ago
    Do you use the Facebook link to verify that the person is female? I'm trans and out as a woman in a lot of places, including at the tech company where I work, but not on Facebook.
    - cbcowans 9y ago
      I do all verification manually. Please send me a note at cadran at ycombinator.com and we can discuss further.
      - actuallyalys 9y ago
        Thanks!
SolaceQuantum 9y ago
Wouldn't you then count as a woman? EDIT: If you're not "out" as trans I don't see why you'd use this service that would ask you for your real name and identity. If you are "out" as trans then you're just another woman, I would think, and would do just fine.

allergeek 9y ago

Direct sign-up link: https://leap.ycombinator.com https://leap.ycombinator.com

etiene 9y ago

seems wonderful! just requested a membership :) I've been part of some online tech communities for women, but I found they were too US-centric and it was difficult for me to obtain value from it, hoping Leap will be different

cbcowans 9y ago
Great! Look forward to having you join!

bischofs 9y ago

I am a bit triggered. This segregation stuff does not make sense to me, it almost feels like prison rules - keep genders/races away from each other because if they interact it will probably be violent. I wondered what would happen if I created a community where the core culture was set by women, and the software and product decisions were also made by women -> This also seems strange to me and counterproductive. If we build a society where any interaction happens without confrontations against the people that may be causing the issues, in this case "men", then how are we to make progress? Do men and women think differently about the merits of different software technologies or not? Even when members have opposing views, they’ve given each other the benefit of the doubt and continue to talk productively. -> Are you implying that men are incapable of this? Or that an environment where men and women interact is incapable of achieving this? Seems regressive...

glorkk 9y ago
I’m not trolling. The whole idea of viewing individuals primarily as members of an arbitrary group is repugnant and has no place in the tech industry. I hope this project fails.
- rev_bird 9y ago
  I can't imagine why a group wouldn't want you in their project.
  - glorkk 9y ago
    A group does not “want” anything. Innovation comes from exchange of ideas between individuals, not from arbitrary groups living behind walled gardens.
    - rev_bird 9y ago
      >A group does not "want" anything. I disagree. A group of women is saying they feel marginalized and want to develop a community of support. Men, particularly ones in this awful comment section are saying "NO FAIR!!!" Those seem like groups, and they clearly want things.

RangerScience 9y ago

As a man, I cannot access your site, but I am still curious which community model you're using - reddit, old school forum, feed (FB, insta)...? Do you have anything you're doing that you find particularly interesting, beyond the self-selection?

cbcowans 9y ago
I put together a gif with some example content from Leap when I posted Leap on Product Hunt. You can check it out here if you like: https://www.producthunt.com/posts/leap-by-yc https://www.producthunt.com/posts/leap-by-yc. I'd describe it as a hybrid. I'd love to hear which bucket you'd put it in.
- autotune 9y ago
  Not OP but to me it looks like a Reddit clone with a few more "fun features" with the emojis. It could very well be based off of reddit considering it's open source.
  - prawn 9y ago
    I find it interesting that the reply button in the stream/index is so prominent. I'd view that as too dominant a design decision, but then perhaps fostering discussion/involvement at the cost of style or following an off-site link is worth the trade off.
- RangerScience 9y ago
  Not a whole lot to go on - what does it look like once comments are posts? But it looks like your topic discovery is "feed" style, although that could (I can't tell) lead into branching discussions (Reddit/HN) or sequential (FB/forums)

asllsa 9y ago

So, just to clarify: I, as a man, am being excluded, not because I am unskilled or any other bad quality other than my gender? Your community's design actively fosters hate and exclusion due to something I can not control. I hope your service, and others like it, crashes and burns, because it is a step backwards after we have come so far.

iovrthoughtthis 9y ago
How does it foster hate? That's a pretty big jump.
- woahdudebro 9y ago
  I have discovered white nationalist groups who believe that other races are not inferior but merely different and thus they wish for a society where they are excluded. Does that foster hate?
  - rev_bird 9y ago
    You're conflating "excluded from a web forum" with "excluded from society." The whole point of groups like Leap is BECAUSE those members want everyone working together -- they're not in their clubhouse plotting the deportation of men, they're trying to figure out how to get on even footing in an industry that has been hostile to women for years.
    - woahdudebro 9y ago
      White nationalists tend to have a similar view of how they have been treated. I disagree personally but I don't allow my personal assumptions cloud my judgement when discussing these topics. Can you formulate an objective standard that allows an individual to determine what types of discrimination are moral or immoral?
      - rev_bird 9y ago
        I disagree that white nationalists have a similar view, though it's interesting that someone linked to a forum where women can feel safe from attack in discussions and we're currently debating their similarities to neo-Nazis. The white nationalist stance (in general) is that racial hegemony, with their group at the top of the heap, is the preferential state of affairs. The stance of this group, as far as I can tell, is that gender equality is the preferential state. Those seem like very different things.

turinapple 9y ago

I'm a woman that's worked in tech since 2011... at times the discrimination and treatment I've faced has made me want to quit the industry all together. But every time I reached that point I thought - no, I'm not the one who should have to leave, it's the people -- usually men -- who have not shown empathy, kindness or compassion. The ones who have bullied me and harassed me and made inappropriate comments or advances. So many of these experiences I just buried inside until I was in the company of other people I trusted and felt safe to share. There hasn't really been an online forum where I felt safe to have these conversations until now. Now that Leap is here I have other people who get me who I can talk to about the stuff that is bugging me. With their help I can treat each day as new and keep moving forward with my career. If you don't understand why this community is important perhaps it's because you have had the privilege of never feeling like a second class citizen in the industry you work in.

RangerScience 9y ago
Please correct me if this is off-base, but... What you're describing has always seemed to me as an excellent example why women-only spaces are not necessarily about people-who-identify-as-women, but about people-who-others-identify-as-women. Other people treat you a certain way because of how they perceive you, and you want to have a place to talk about that with other people treated the same way. Does that sound at all correct?
fruzz 9y ago
I really wish your experience was unique. A colleague was groped. She didn't report it. It would have likely diminished her future prospects. A friend was asked out on dates, unsolicited, multiple times by coworkers. She just had to laugh it off. Women at a previous employment reported not being taken as seriously as men in meetings, and being passed over for promotions in favour of less qualified men. A friend reported sexualized posters of women up in the office. In the chat of my company, a sexualized video of women was passed around. I'm trans, so my challenges are a bit different. I try to hide the fact that I'm trans during interviews. A lot of people are uncomfortable with trans people (26% of Canadian men are uncomfortable moving next to one), and with interviews to see if I'm socially a good fit, that can end it. I actually changed my name to an androgynous one as to not out myself. I get misgendered at work by people who do it on purpose. I also get touched inappropriately by a coworker. In all cases, what can you do to challenge these things without being seen as "the crazy one", "too sensitive", "party pooper", or whatever? Without hurting my finances? It's shit.

cirgue 9y ago

What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture? I ask because I think this is a cool project, but there is also the inescapable fact that at some point men and women will have to work together in engineering environments, and we still have a dearth of environments that foster those interactions.

rev_bird 9y ago
>What problem is this intended to solve that isn't solved by moderation policies and forum culture? I think this comment thread is a pretty good illustration of the problem. A group of women are saying, "hey, we think this is a beneficial project, for this reason and this other reason," and a bunch of men are saying "WRONG it's pretty much white supremacy except against men." Forums reflect their membership -- in an industry dominated by men, discussions will be slanted away from positions held by women unless compensatory measures are taken.
- rarec 9y ago
  On the same token, a specifically male only group tends to get crucified. It's more of a confusion of double standards, perceived or otherwise. Sure, most groups end up de-facto male only, but you never see groups actively advertised as male only.
  - ambivalents 9y ago
    This once again reads as an illustration of the problem. This isn't an issue of double standards. You do understand the difference in experiences, right, between members of a group comprised and in support of a minority/systematically-unrepresented group, and a counterpart group comprised of a majority/the ones often perpetuating (even if indirectly) this imbalance?
    - rarec 9y ago
      I do. However, I'm not sure how that means that a subset of the majority cannot also have their own exclusive spaces while also allowing a minority to have the same. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against a woman only support group and find the idea of Leap great. What is the problem you're stating, in this case, that a woman only group can solve that one comprised of men and women could not? Genuine question. If the answer is "Men cannot understand" that's fair, but a terrible simplification. You'll find most men are at least willing to try to understand, and by vilifying the majority and hiding in a smaller exclusionary group you may just end up worse off than before.

adfm 9y ago

We all need a safe space to come in from the cold. When you feel vulnerable, you want to communicate with friendly, like-minded people. However, you'll find more noise within an echo chamber and that jerks exist regardless of gender. This sort of gender-specific walled garden is nothing new and I suppose will always attract a certain stereotype. Here's an old Anthony Lewis post from 1994 that may sober folks on the idea: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/14/opinion/abroad-at-home-time-to-grow-up.html http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/14/opinion/abroad-at-home-tim... "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member" --Groucho Marx

grasshopperpurp 9y ago
>Michael Godwin of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a public-interest law firm, made the same point -- if slightly less elegantly -- about the Santa Rosa case. People who objected to the computer message, he said, "should have called the guy who posted the message a jerk." Call an obnoxious speaker a jerk: what a useful formula, what an intelligent way to get the resentment off your chest without starting down the legal road to suppression of speech. It would have worked well, for example, in the notorious case of Prof. J. Donald Silva of the University of New Hampshire. I find this section to be a disturbing summation of the author's attitude on the subject. And, the Groucho Marx quote has no bearing on any of this; it's self-deprecation.
- adfm 9y ago
  Do I find a mens club repugnant? Yes, but I do appreciate comfortable chairs. As for Groucho, I suppose the subtlety of his humor falls on deaf ears.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
    So, how does it relate then? What did you add by including it? It's a famous quote, and I remember mentioning it to a college professor when we covered Poe's 'The Black Cat.' I'm all for learning. Please explain.

deleted 9y ago

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ianwalter 9y ago

This is smart, natural, and a good use of tech. I hope your community succeeds.

to_bpr 9y ago
I agree. Male only entities are also smart and natural, and if tech based are a good use of that tech, right?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- bigbluedots 9y ago
  Sure, if someone identifies a need for one? Even better, if you see an opportunity going missing in the market due to the lack of said entity, why not start one up?

mychael 9y ago

Can someone help me understand how this site is not sexist and discriminatory against men?

rev_bird 9y ago
You know how right now you're offended, and feeling left out just because of your gender? That's how some women in tech feel all the time. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16160940 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16160940
- spodek 9y ago
  That poster didn't seem offended to me. More curious. It's not obvious if the person is male or female or feeling left out. If some women feel that way anyway, are you suggesting that making more people feel that way helps or makes it not sexist? Tech pushes many people out, male and female. Even if the men in tech are the same, what about the men who would like to be in tech but were pushed out? Or are all men the same?
  - rev_bird 9y ago
    >Tech pushes many people out, male and female. Even if the men in tech are the same, what about the men who would like to be in tech but were pushed out? Or are all men the same? I'd wager most men "pushed out" of tech weren't fleeing sexism and gender-based isolation. This whole thing seems like looking at a team of 10 -- nine men and one woman -- and, when the woman says, "Gee, it'd be nice to have another woman to talk to," responding by saying "Well how about you just talk to us nine guys instead? Wouldn't that be just as good?"
- oh_sigh 9y ago
  ...therefore the answer is to increase gender division? Should we also end racial violence by increasing racial violence?
  - rev_bird 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

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DoreenMichele 9y ago

I have seen research that women who go to all female colleges tend to do better career-wise. So I don't think the idea of a female enclave as a means to inoculate women against problematic social norms is without merit. If you have never done this before, let me suggest that if you like the culture it currently has, you need to be really leery of making significant changes, such as deciding you will welcome men at some point after starting out as exclusively female. I have been a member of predominantly female groups. If there is a single man in them, they fail to be some kind of female empowerment zone. He will have the largest influence any time he posts and he will be backed by vicious female allies who will have a huge problem with any woman standing up to him. It is bizarre stuff. The one group I briefly belonged to that was initially exclusively female due to happenstance promptly crashed and burned when the first man joined. After ugly stuff went down, the list basically died. It was eventually disbanded, even though he quickly left because of the drama. The group never recovered from the debacle.

ChiliConKanye 9y ago
I have to wonder whether cause-and-effect have been reversed with respect to the female college findings. If my college experience is any indication, large numbers of women go to college specifically to find mates (or at least prioritize mate-finding over career prep), a phenomenon which would largely not exist at a women's-only college, and thereby skew the numbers in the way we observe.
Iepoiel 9y ago
Single-sex schools is generally perceived to give better results in grades and careers, with research to back it up. They are also perceived to give worse citizens in term of empathy and understanding. This theory is notoriously used by the military in many nations. By strengthening the in-group feeling you gain several traits such as increased confidence and feeling of belonging, and you increase tensions against the out-group which during a war is perceived as useful. Benefits and drawbacks, one which many nations has gone with banning the practice of single sex education. I don't disagree with it and I find the science behind it to be rather robust.
- 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

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grasshopperpurp 9y ago
Sorry, I've tried to edit it, but I guess it's locked in.
- dang 9y ago
  Hmm it should have been editable but I've done a thing to reopen it that should work. If you edit it I can delete my replies here.
  - grasshopperpurp 9y ago
    Thank you. I'll try again :)
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

dominotw 9y ago

> they’ve found jobs, met mentors and made friends through the community. I am interested in finding a mentor and a supportive community. Is there a forum like this for general public.

Anticapitalist 9y ago
There's tons of them. Facebook groups, linked-in groups and subreddits for any discipline already exist and are waiting for you to join them.
bigbluedots 9y ago
You're already on one of them, although sometimes it may not feel that way :)

erinbk 9y ago

Is there an alternative Identity verification besides FacebooK?

cbcowans 9y ago
Not at the moment unfortunately. If you send me a note at leap at ycombinator dot com I will let you know when I add other auth mechanisms.

erinbk 9y ago

I want to join but I don't have a Facebook! What's next? (Besides getting a FacebooK)

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

konogasa 9y ago

I expect this to be a controversial comment. I might just be overreacting. If you identify as a woman and are interested in joining Leap, please sign up for our beta here. I'm a trans woman who works in tech. I think it's dangerous to open a community for women to people who "identify as women". For one thing, there are plenty of women who do not "identify as women". For instance, older women may not really know what "identifying" is all about and just think "well, I'm a woman, what's to identify with?". There are also younger women who reject the idea that gender is an identity that you can choose at will. Obviously the invitation is meant to show that trans women are welcome. That's... moving, but I think it will only cause trouble. First you create a place especially for women, which is needed because like the announcement says, many women don't feel welcome, comfortable or even safe in online discussions that tend to escalate to shouting matches, typically among men (since it's the women leaving). Then you invite in to the community people who have been socialised as men, have grown up as men, have spent most of their professional lives as men and who have often contributed to exactly the kind of working environment that makes womens' lives difficult as tech workers. That's defeating the whole point of a "community where the core culture [will be] set by women". I'm not trying to say that trans women are not women (I mean, duh; I'm one. Of both). But it should be kept in mind that most of us carry a great deal of baggage from the time we lived as men. Baggage that's very hard to get rid of and that many of us are not even aware of. In light of this, I think this big-hearted invitation to everyone who identifies as a woman, should be revised to something more cautious. I'd think, if someone "identifies as a woman" and works in technology, they'd respond to an invitation to just "women" anyway. To be perfectly clear, I'm totally not joining and I invite any other trans women who read this to think very carefully before doing so. Just think of all the times you had a civilised and polite debate with other trans women about trans stuff, or about anything.

temp-dude-87844 9y ago
Ultimately, all in-groups are decided by the consent of the majority of members, since everyone will self-select in the end: those who disagree will leave, those who begin to feel excluded will leave, those who feel unwelcome won't join. You can factor in leadership change and continuity as an additional complication, and the names and labels attached to the group will change, but the phenomenon remains the same. Societally, we have recently gotten to the point of being able to talk about the importance of having spaces where historically marginalized groups can forge a shared sense of belonging and build up the social support structures that historically less marginalized groups have long enjoyed, but I don't believe we've gotten to the point of being able to have a reasoned debate about edge cases where different groups overlap in some ways, yet diverge in others, along axes some might find incompatible. I also don't necessarily think that this is for the group leader to solve: this is a process that will take years of successes and blunders, and cause everyone involved to tackle an additional layer of delicate subjects that they may not be ready for. It appears that the group leader has laid out their vision, so for now, the points you raise will likely be addressed in a distributed fashion, in the minds of every member or prospective member, as time goes on.

briholt 9y ago

Yes, finally! I've always said, the way to end gender discrimination is to create a secretive forum that selects members based on gender discrimination.

dang 9y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the HN guidelines and ignoring our requests to stop. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

stefantalpalaru 9y ago

Poster slogan idea: "I need sexism because womyn and children should be sheltered from the harsh realities of the asphalt jungle."

mcintyre1994 9y ago

Honest question, does HN feel unwelcoming or uncomfortable for women? In particular: “I’ve found that some conversations online escalate to shouting matches quickly” do female HN users identify this with HN? Not saying Leap shouldn’t exist or anything, I’m just wondering if HN has these particular issues that I haven’t personally recognised.

matt4077 9y ago
There's a certain style to HN discussions that feels completely natural if you've been here long enough, yet may appear excessively antagonistic to people not used to it. Specifically, 90%+ of all comments are of the "you're wrong, because..." variety. Note that there's nothing wrong with such comments: they make up a large part of any group's pub conversations as well, for example. Yet there are other sentiments that are possibly underrepresented on HN: self-doubt, questions, or comments expanding on others' ideas come to mind. None of these can obviously be categorised as singularity "male" or "female". And there isn't much shouting going on, even metaphorically. Yet it may, from time to time, be a good idea to step back and examine common assumptions,
- dang 9y ago
  I don't think you're being fair to the community here. It's true that such comments exist, and so do many other kinds. Many users share personal experiences. Many express vulnerability. Self-doubt, questions, and comments expanding on others' ideas are highly represented here, and we value them tremendously. I puzzled for years over why people would say things like "90%+ of all comments" that are so obviously (to me) untrue. But now I think I know why: those kinds of comments stand out more. It is as if they burn a deeper impression into the brain of the reader, usually a more painful one, so one comes to feel like they're "90%+" even when they are not. This perceptual loop is hard to break out of, so I've begun to see it as part of the moderator's job to inject new information when people post like this, in the hope of opening the loop back up. It's important for the community to see the good in itself and not just the bad. Otherwise why bother to take care of it? HN has problems with disrespect, incivility, aggression, but one must evaluate this from multiple sides. Every large, public, anonymous place on the internet has this problem, usually worse than HN does. The problem is systemic, but that doesn't make it hopeless, it just makes improvement slow. Every HN reader I've met has a love-hate relationship with the site. There's something deep in that, and a lot to say about it, but here's one that gets back to the topic of this thread. In my opinion, the aggressive dynamics of open internet argumentation relate to the gender dynamics of what tends to make women feel more or less welcome in a place. An atmosphere of hostility—or anything above a certain toxic baseline—causes many people to want nothing to do with a place or to feel deep ambivalence about it. I have that reaction myself, and my sense is that women tend to have it more than men do. This is what came to my mind when Cadran wrote that she started Leap because she doesn't feel welcome in "shouting matches".

sexydefinesher 9y ago

[flagged]

keyboardhitter 9y ago

I don't use Facebook, but I entered my LinkedIn and Github URLs globbed together. Really hoping for some leeway on this verification method. I would be happy to wait until other methods are created but can't say I was not disappointed.

DelaneyM 9y ago

Please allow signup verification by LinkedIn, many people do not have Facebook accounts. (I am one such person.)

neveroffensive 9y ago

I'm not convinced we are going about solving these kind of problems the right way. The community and discourse surrounding these topics in recent years seems to revolve around silos, and making the goals of certain contexts minimization of offense above all else. I don't disagree at all that these methods could achieve improved social integration and opportunity for most people. However, what about going the opposite direction? What if we decided to accept bullies and bad actors as a fundamental aspect of the system? What if we went even further, and accepted that even non-bullies may believe and act in ways which make us uncomfortable? The solution then would have to involve learning to cope with the complexities of life, rather than working tirelessly to eliminate them. To tie back into a concrete example. YC in the past has found that minority teams can feel intimidated by working around non-minority teams. What if instead of creating separate working environments to resolve this problem, we instead stated that the minority teams which had issues needed to work through those issues and learn to work in the common environment?

th1nkdifferent 9y ago

I have a naive question that needs answering. Is there a difference between a community for Women vs a community for anybody who wants a civil community? From the discussion, I gather that women like 'women only' communities primarily because there are no "ill behaved", threatening men that turn away women. Is there a place for a community for civilized human beings where everyone is included regardless of their gender identity? I think gender specific communities creates a mono culture and punishes men who are civilized and know how to behave around other gender(s). The real issue to address is to keep out the unruly crowd - regardless of gender.

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