13 ms·

Community-Owned Fiber Networks: Value Leaders in America

354 points by artsandsci 9y ago

politician 9y ago
[Offish-topic] Lately I've been thinking about solving the last-mile problem through a free-space optics approach for suburban areas. Stick a mast on your roof that can illuminate your neighbor's masts; relay to a FTTC node for backhaul. Sort of like an extended range LiFi / mesh setup. It's attractive because it could avoid RF licensing entirely, but rain/dust/smoke is an issue. Does anyone know if any company is doing anything like this right now?
- ynezz 9y ago
  Maybe http://www.koruza.net http://www.koruza.net ?
  - kitotik 9y ago
    This looks very interesting. How real is this? Looks like they had targeted Nov 17 to ship. Anyone know if there are units out in the wild?
  - KindOne 9y ago
    What is the range on that?
    - amazon_not 9y ago
      "Up to 150m"
      - KindOne 9y ago
        Oh I'm blind. I didn't see that, thanks.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  Could any radio engineers weigh in on how practical ultra-directional radio antennas could be for this? I'm imagining collimated radio beams (like lasers) which could bypass the need (not necessarily the existing legislation) for spectrum regulation. What if every house had a few microwave drums on the roof?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - grahamburger 9y ago
    This is kind of starting to happen with 60Ghz radios becoming more available. I think the problem with 'ultra-directional' radio antennas is that they're actually pretty difficult to build and even when they can be built they're very large. But with 60Ghz there is a lot of oxygen absorption, meaning that the signal dies off really quickly in all directions meaning that it won't interfere as much with other nearby installations. The equipment is just barely coming on to the market, though.
    - walrus01 9y ago
      60 GHz PTP bridges have been around for 8 years or so, at 1GbE line rate. They're not rocket science, exactly, but knowing how to properly engineer a network with them is something that not every ISP can figure out.
      - grahamburger 9y ago
        Are you thinking of the siklu ones or someone else? I'm not aware of any that have been around that long (not arguing just curious) I was thinking of the IgniteNet and MiktoTik versions which I think are both more recent as well as PtMP applications which (I think?) Aren't really generally available yet. True on knowing how to properly use them! Although to be fair I think most of the ISPs using them don't have a lot of use for really short, high capacity backhauls they're often looking for distance in rural areas.
        9y ago
- gkaemmer 9y ago
  Also potentially https://common.net/ https://common.net/ though I’m not sure which specific transmission mechanism they use.
  - djchen 9y ago
    I saw them mentioned in another HN thread recently. From the photos on their web site, they use Ubiquiti gear (probably the Ubiquiti airMax LiteBeam) which runs on 5ghz. https://support.common.net/hc/en-us/articles/115001438367-What-do-the-antennas-masts-look-like- https://support.common.net/hc/en-us/articles/115001438367-Wh...
  - grahamburger 9y ago
    Oh hey I work there. We're using mostly 5ghz wireless gear.
- grahamburger 9y ago
  I've done this before. The problem with the free-space optics is they're incredibly sensitive to anything that might come in the way of the link - like birds, rain, snow, drones, anything you can imagine! Also the range is very limited. A free space optics link with a failover to unlicensed RF link works pretty well. Although tbh it's not that difficult to deal with RF licensing, depending on where you are exactly.
- extrapickles 9y ago
  Terrabeam tried during the .com boom, but couldn’t get it cheap enough. Ronja is a open source 10mbit optical link. I ‘m not aware of any attempts in the past few years to do this though. Like others have said, optical works best in areas with clear weather for most of the year. In addition, tall buildings move alot, to it works better on shorter structures.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- WillReplyfFood 9y ago
  Heard abaout a University which used this to connect the Network in two Tours in the eighties. Place had a lot of fog and birds- so there where problems, but connection was fast. Highrises would be generally better for this approach- or some long atenna/tethered drone. At this stage though, wouldnt it be rather cheaper, to build a little softrobot and have it drag fibre along preexisting cable channels/stormdrains/sewers - basically just doing the infrastructure decent for cheap yourself.
  - amazon_not 9y ago
    There are existing solutions that use robots to install fiber optic cables in storm drains, sewers and other ducts. Not that cheap, but the biggest problem is that you need permission of the infrastructure owner to do it.
- lazerpants 9y ago
  NYC Mesh. https://nycmesh.net/ https://nycmesh.net/
rayiner 9y ago
The study's methodology of comparing only the lowest-priced tier service isn't that great, because it may be more indicative of the degree to which a provider is willing to cross-subsidize service tiers rather than real cost efficiencies. To take the top 3 providers from the chart on page 8: FiberNET in Morristown charges $200 for gigabit, Sebewaing Light & Water charges $160 for 1000/100, and LUS charges $109 for gigabit. The "market rate" for AT&T/VZN/CenturyLink is $70-90 (excluding promos). There is also the question of what happens going forward. Quite some time ago, Easton MD (on Maryland's eastern shore) put in a cable internet service through its municipal utility. Today, you can get 200/10 for $100/month. Not bad, but head a bit east to Salisbury, MD and you can get 1000/35 through Comcast for $105 ($80 for the first year). That's the big fear with municipal services. Upgrading head ends won't get you press like rolling out a broadband service in the first instance will. That being said, municipal broadband certainly has a place. Maryland is spending a bunch of money building a fiber backbone in the rural parts of the state, and municipalities are hooking into it: http://www.westminstermd.gov/419/Westminster-Fiber-Network http://www.westminstermd.gov/419/Westminster-Fiber-Network. These are places that don't have the population and density to support potentially even a single private provider, much less multiple competing ones.
- MBCook 9y ago
  Comparisons on the lowest price makes a certain amount of sense if your main goal is to make it affordable. Also, readers should note that they didn’t include AT&T or Verizon in their analysis because the website’s T&Cs prevented it.
- neonhomer 9y ago
  Purely personal, but if my only options in Easton, MD were the municipal and Comcast, I'd probably choose municipal. The 800Mb speed doesn't make up for the fact it's Comcast and their horrible service.
- TYPE_FASTER 9y ago
  I pay $85.99/mo for Fios for 25/25. I started out at about $54, and they've been bumping it up. I called and complained, and they said that's the best rate. As an existing customer, I cannot get the "gigabit internet for $79" rate that's advertised on the website. That $70-90 rate for Verizon is the promo rate, because it will go up over time after you join. Ok, so I can switch to Comcast, and get the $44 rate for a year, and then switch back, but that sounds...dumb.
d--b 9y ago
Nice. Having read hacker news for years, I remember a lot of comments from angry Americans who were offended by Europeans mocking them about their broadband prices, and telling them that they were being screwed by big American telcos who formed an monopolising alliance artificially keeping prices up. The comments used to range from "the country is just too big, the infrastructure work doesn't compare" to "European broadband infrastructure is paid by the states because of socialist-type taxation". And finally, after years of municipalities fighting big telco, it is becoming ultra clear that yes Comcast, TWC and co have been screwing the American people for a looooong time. And hopefully this is only the beginning, prices still have a long way to go!
- rayiner 9y ago
  > And hopefully this is only the beginning, prices still have a long way to go! Monthly non-promo rate for gigabit fiber: Stockholm - Telia - 999 Swedish Krona (~$125) London - HyperOptic - 60 Pounds (~$80-90) Zurich - iWay - 79 Swiss Francs (~$80) New York - Verizon - $80-90. It's not clear to me that there is much room to go down in countries with similar cost of labor. (Keep in mind that median household income in France is about the same as Choctaw County, Alabama).
  - StillBored 9y ago
    And where i live in Texas (not a small city by far), I pay $90 for 200/20 (with my own modem) from spectrum (was TWC). The big change with spectrum has been removal of any tiers above 100/10. The 300/20 tier introduced about 5 years ago apparently still exists but you have to call and request it and there is something like a $200 connection charge, and it goes for about $110 a month. About half way across the city there is some competition, and you can get Gigabit from a couple different providers (for about $100), but the service is really isolated to a few neighborhoods and even companies like AT&T won't even tell you which neighborhoods have the service if you happen to be looking for a house/apartment. What is silly, is that there are a bunch of fiber providers in texas covering the little towns. For example hill country telephone coop https://www.hctc.net/resources/ https://www.hctc.net/resources/ (which actually has service maps) has a symetric gigabit plan for $200 in a bunch of towns with populations less than 10k..
samirillian 9y ago
So...this is deregulation working?
- lloyd-christmas 9y ago
  Which deregulation? The data in this study is from 2015-2016.
- matt4077 9y ago
  Only in that alternative reality where "preventing municipal fibre networks" is the sort of regulation that the Republican Party wants to de-regulate. In reality, it's among the only regulation they like. Plus preventing Tesla from selling directly to consumers, and making government just small enough to fit in your bedroom.
agumonkey 9y ago
this was on HN not long ago (legends of the ancient web) http://archive.is/9evG0 http://archive.is/9evG0 told how early radio was even more community than business, time to loop the loop
fishmeat 9y ago
So, are there anyone already doing this? From the attitude towards Comcast, it looks like there will be lots of funding from people dying to get a better alternative.
IronWolve 9y ago
20 years ago, Spokane Washington had to redo its streets, so they laid fiber downtown before repaving. This allowed ISP's and telecoms to plug in and run very cheap ISP's and hosting services. Downtown telecom/isp exploded with connectivity. We found an older building had highspeed access due to fiber. We rented a small office, (closet really), and paid for 100meg connection to an ISP on a lower floor. Ran an entire ISP with dialup/dsl and hosting that was cheap, and even offered credit card processing. Years before comcast or large telecom offered DSL. Ive seen over the years, Spokane have large backup hub for PNW banks and other large bandwidth hungry companies move in. Hands on hosting services, Internet turn key web hosting, etc. All in a midwest type town due to the availability. Even across the border in Idaho, some smaller towns that now have fiber have startups popping up due to cheap land, cheap bandwidth, and low cost of living. I'm always seeing startups hiring big data dbas, network engineers and programmers. I just wish they would expand further into the very small rural towns. Wifi at my folks small town community center is packed with people due to dialup being the only thing available to the community. Either drive into Spokane, hope you have Verizon LTE coverage, or pay for limitted usage sat.
- komali2 9y ago
  When did governments stop caring about infrastructure as a direct investment in local commerce?
  - adventured 9y ago
    The US will have to raise taxes dramatically at all levels, to do everything that people want it to do (or figure out how to grow the economy far faster). 40-50 years ago, entitlements for example were a small cost for states and the Federal Govt (a huge slush fund for the Federal Govt in fact, they wasted trillions of dollars in entitlement money they were supposed to save). Costs have climbed a lot in all regards, while revenue as a share of GDP has largely not gone up with it. If the US had fiscally responsible politicians, it would have a modest public debt, and trillions of dollars in a sovereign wealth fund derived from decades of surplus revenue for eg Social Security. Infrastructure would be a non-issue. Simply put, priorities. You can do this (spending up), but you have to do that (taxes up); or you can choose not to have that (spending down), and so you can do this (taxes down). Taxes are going up a lot either way, given the massive explosion in entitlement costs inbound, or QE is going to handle it with inflation. The US will hit a trillion per year in deficits in a few years, primarily due to entitlement costs, and partially due to excesss military spending.
duncan_bayne 9y ago
Semantics is important here. Most of these projects aren't community owned, they are socialised: taxpayers are compelled to fund them. It may seem like a small difference, but it's not - there are moral, economic and engineering consequences to forcing people to subsidise your broadband use. Imagine if people referred to State-owned factories in Soviet Russia as "community owned". That would immediately, and correctly, be criticised as propaganda.
- rayiner 9y ago
  Most of these systems are not socialized. They're from municipally-owned utilities that recover their expenses from ratepayers, not tax dollars.
  - duncan_bayne 9y ago
    Why do you consider rates as distinct from other forms of compulsory taxation? It may be that rates where you are are a different thing to rates in Victoria (where I live). Here, rates are: * compulsory * "progressive", based on land value, not value of services provided * go towards services that may not be used by the ratepayer specifically, for example municipal swimming pools, not just say rubbish collection or road maintenance
    - rayiner 9y ago
      “Rate payers” is U.S. regulatory jargon for “user fees charges for use of regulated services.” Typically, electric, water, or sewer. In the US, the cost of these services is not paid for with tax dollars, but recovered from fees charged to those who use those services.
      - duncan_bayne 9y ago
        Ah, right! So actually there is a large difference - rates in the US are opt-in? So if I chose not to participate in a municipal broadband system, I wouldn't have to pay for it?
nateberkopec 9y ago
I live in a rural town in New Mexico of about 10,000 people. We get 50 megabit symmetrical fiber from the local co-op for about $60 a month. I think the fiber was funded by a USDA grant. One of the nice things is not having to deal with big-co customer service like Verizon or Comcast. You call up and you get a real person who lives in your town.
RyanShook 9y ago
Would love a how-to of community organized fiber. Seems like a simple concept with a ton of paperwork and hoops to jump.
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Not exactly what you're looking for, but I've been working on http://startyourownisp.com http://startyourownisp.com. It's focused on wireless rather than fiber but could still be applicable.
  - RyanShook 9y ago
    Great resource, thank you.
- pyvpx 9y ago
  https://b4rn.org.uk/ https://b4rn.org.uk/
wilwade 9y ago
Just wanted to pipe in as I live in Chattanooga, TN one of the cities mentioned in the report. $58 a month for 100/100 ($70 for 1000/1000 and $300 for 10000/10000. that's right anywhere in the county you can get 10G/10G) and a bill that is always correct. I am here in part because of the fiber network. That said it is not just the fast internet, but the quality of the service people. They have always shown up on time and gone above and beyond each time. They know how to run a cable properly (drip curve for example). Plus they have a no data cap and net neutrality pledge. Feels like most of the rest of of the country is in the dark ages on most or all of those points.
jpbutler 9y ago
Data point of one: I'm on one of these networks, here in Concord, MA, and it's amazing. We already had municipal power, so it's the same organization and the same bill. I've been running for ~4 years with no blips at all. It's the first thing I recommend to people moving into town. http://www.concordnet.org/467/Broadband-Internet-Service http://www.concordnet.org/467/Broadband-Internet-Service
samch 9y ago
...but it’s illegal in North Carolina. https://www.wired.com/2011/05/nc-gov-anti-muni-broadband/ https://www.wired.com/2011/05/nc-gov-anti-muni-broadband/
WillReplyfFood 9y ago
Only slightly related, but is there a way to undo the range reduce in wifi routers. Basically- my old WiFi Router would cover the whole building- and after lightning strike - the newer model only covers a quarter of it. Support told us to buy repeaters. Wich i guess, is what they want people to do. Are there ways to restore the transmissionrange of the old models?
- walshemj 9y ago
  Don't use repeaters each hop cuts the bandwidth in half Use power line to connect to the router (for wired hosts) or have multiple AP's plus power line as the DS for your mobile devices. Which band are you using now, 2.4 is slower but has better range 5Ghz is faster but shorter range also look at congestion are you using the same channel as the next house Why can't you use your own router/ap? get one with external arenas and firmware (eg ddrwt) that can adjust tx power
greedo 9y ago
Lincoln Nebraska, Allo rolling out FTH throughout the city. 1Gb/sec for $90. Spectrum is trying to compete, but failing dramatically. No sympathy for the devil.

354 points by artsandsci 9y ago

[Offish-topic] Lately I've been thinking about solving the last-mile problem through a free-space optics approach for suburban areas. Stick a mast on your roof that can illuminate your neighbor's masts; relay to a FTTC node for backhaul. Sort of like an extended range LiFi / mesh setup. It's attractive because it could avoid RF licensing entirely, but rain/dust/smoke is an issue. Does anyone know if any company is doing anything like this right now?

ynezz 9y ago
Maybe http://www.koruza.net http://www.koruza.net ?
- kitotik 9y ago
  This looks very interesting. How real is this? Looks like they had targeted Nov 17 to ship. Anyone know if there are units out in the wild?
- KindOne 9y ago
  What is the range on that?
  - amazon_not 9y ago
    "Up to 150m"
    - KindOne 9y ago
      Oh I'm blind. I didn't see that, thanks.
whatshisface 9y ago
Could any radio engineers weigh in on how practical ultra-directional radio antennas could be for this? I'm imagining collimated radio beams (like lasers) which could bypass the need (not necessarily the existing legislation) for spectrum regulation. What if every house had a few microwave drums on the roof?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- grahamburger 9y ago
  This is kind of starting to happen with 60Ghz radios becoming more available. I think the problem with 'ultra-directional' radio antennas is that they're actually pretty difficult to build and even when they can be built they're very large. But with 60Ghz there is a lot of oxygen absorption, meaning that the signal dies off really quickly in all directions meaning that it won't interfere as much with other nearby installations. The equipment is just barely coming on to the market, though.
  - walrus01 9y ago
    60 GHz PTP bridges have been around for 8 years or so, at 1GbE line rate. They're not rocket science, exactly, but knowing how to properly engineer a network with them is something that not every ISP can figure out.
    - grahamburger 9y ago
      Are you thinking of the siklu ones or someone else? I'm not aware of any that have been around that long (not arguing just curious) I was thinking of the IgniteNet and MiktoTik versions which I think are both more recent as well as PtMP applications which (I think?) Aren't really generally available yet. True on knowing how to properly use them! Although to be fair I think most of the ISPs using them don't have a lot of use for really short, high capacity backhauls they're often looking for distance in rural areas.
      - 9y ago
gkaemmer 9y ago
Also potentially https://common.net/ https://common.net/ though I’m not sure which specific transmission mechanism they use.
- djchen 9y ago
  I saw them mentioned in another HN thread recently. From the photos on their web site, they use Ubiquiti gear (probably the Ubiquiti airMax LiteBeam) which runs on 5ghz. https://support.common.net/hc/en-us/articles/115001438367-What-do-the-antennas-masts-look-like- https://support.common.net/hc/en-us/articles/115001438367-Wh...
- grahamburger 9y ago
  Oh hey I work there. We're using mostly 5ghz wireless gear.
grahamburger 9y ago
I've done this before. The problem with the free-space optics is they're incredibly sensitive to anything that might come in the way of the link - like birds, rain, snow, drones, anything you can imagine! Also the range is very limited. A free space optics link with a failover to unlicensed RF link works pretty well. Although tbh it's not that difficult to deal with RF licensing, depending on where you are exactly.
extrapickles 9y ago
Terrabeam tried during the .com boom, but couldn’t get it cheap enough. Ronja is a open source 10mbit optical link. I ‘m not aware of any attempts in the past few years to do this though. Like others have said, optical works best in areas with clear weather for most of the year. In addition, tall buildings move alot, to it works better on shorter structures.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
WillReplyfFood 9y ago
Heard abaout a University which used this to connect the Network in two Tours in the eighties. Place had a lot of fog and birds- so there where problems, but connection was fast. Highrises would be generally better for this approach- or some long atenna/tethered drone. At this stage though, wouldnt it be rather cheaper, to build a little softrobot and have it drag fibre along preexisting cable channels/stormdrains/sewers - basically just doing the infrastructure decent for cheap yourself.
- amazon_not 9y ago
  There are existing solutions that use robots to install fiber optic cables in storm drains, sewers and other ducts. Not that cheap, but the biggest problem is that you need permission of the infrastructure owner to do it.
lazerpants 9y ago
NYC Mesh. https://nycmesh.net/ https://nycmesh.net/

rayiner 9y ago

The study's methodology of comparing only the lowest-priced tier service isn't that great, because it may be more indicative of the degree to which a provider is willing to cross-subsidize service tiers rather than real cost efficiencies. To take the top 3 providers from the chart on page 8: FiberNET in Morristown charges $200 for gigabit, Sebewaing Light & Water charges $160 for 1000/100, and LUS charges $109 for gigabit. The "market rate" for AT&T/VZN/CenturyLink is $70-90 (excluding promos). There is also the question of what happens going forward. Quite some time ago, Easton MD (on Maryland's eastern shore) put in a cable internet service through its municipal utility. Today, you can get 200/10 for $100/month. Not bad, but head a bit east to Salisbury, MD and you can get 1000/35 through Comcast for $105 ($80 for the first year). That's the big fear with municipal services. Upgrading head ends won't get you press like rolling out a broadband service in the first instance will. That being said, municipal broadband certainly has a place. Maryland is spending a bunch of money building a fiber backbone in the rural parts of the state, and municipalities are hooking into it: http://www.westminstermd.gov/419/Westminster-Fiber-Network http://www.westminstermd.gov/419/Westminster-Fiber-Network. These are places that don't have the population and density to support potentially even a single private provider, much less multiple competing ones.

MBCook 9y ago
Comparisons on the lowest price makes a certain amount of sense if your main goal is to make it affordable. Also, readers should note that they didn’t include AT&T or Verizon in their analysis because the website’s T&Cs prevented it.
neonhomer 9y ago
Purely personal, but if my only options in Easton, MD were the municipal and Comcast, I'd probably choose municipal. The 800Mb speed doesn't make up for the fact it's Comcast and their horrible service.
TYPE_FASTER 9y ago
I pay $85.99/mo for Fios for 25/25. I started out at about $54, and they've been bumping it up. I called and complained, and they said that's the best rate. As an existing customer, I cannot get the "gigabit internet for $79" rate that's advertised on the website. That $70-90 rate for Verizon is the promo rate, because it will go up over time after you join. Ok, so I can switch to Comcast, and get the $44 rate for a year, and then switch back, but that sounds...dumb.

d--b 9y ago

Nice. Having read hacker news for years, I remember a lot of comments from angry Americans who were offended by Europeans mocking them about their broadband prices, and telling them that they were being screwed by big American telcos who formed an monopolising alliance artificially keeping prices up. The comments used to range from "the country is just too big, the infrastructure work doesn't compare" to "European broadband infrastructure is paid by the states because of socialist-type taxation". And finally, after years of municipalities fighting big telco, it is becoming ultra clear that yes Comcast, TWC and co have been screwing the American people for a looooong time. And hopefully this is only the beginning, prices still have a long way to go!

rayiner 9y ago
> And hopefully this is only the beginning, prices still have a long way to go! Monthly non-promo rate for gigabit fiber: Stockholm - Telia - 999 Swedish Krona (~$125) London - HyperOptic - 60 Pounds (~$80-90) Zurich - iWay - 79 Swiss Francs (~$80) New York - Verizon - $80-90. It's not clear to me that there is much room to go down in countries with similar cost of labor. (Keep in mind that median household income in France is about the same as Choctaw County, Alabama).
- StillBored 9y ago
  And where i live in Texas (not a small city by far), I pay $90 for 200/20 (with my own modem) from spectrum (was TWC). The big change with spectrum has been removal of any tiers above 100/10. The 300/20 tier introduced about 5 years ago apparently still exists but you have to call and request it and there is something like a $200 connection charge, and it goes for about $110 a month. About half way across the city there is some competition, and you can get Gigabit from a couple different providers (for about $100), but the service is really isolated to a few neighborhoods and even companies like AT&T won't even tell you which neighborhoods have the service if you happen to be looking for a house/apartment. What is silly, is that there are a bunch of fiber providers in texas covering the little towns. For example hill country telephone coop https://www.hctc.net/resources/ https://www.hctc.net/resources/ (which actually has service maps) has a symetric gigabit plan for $200 in a bunch of towns with populations less than 10k..

samirillian 9y ago

So...this is deregulation working?

lloyd-christmas 9y ago
Which deregulation? The data in this study is from 2015-2016.
matt4077 9y ago
Only in that alternative reality where "preventing municipal fibre networks" is the sort of regulation that the Republican Party wants to de-regulate. In reality, it's among the only regulation they like. Plus preventing Tesla from selling directly to consumers, and making government just small enough to fit in your bedroom.

agumonkey 9y ago

this was on HN not long ago (legends of the ancient web) http://archive.is/9evG0 http://archive.is/9evG0 told how early radio was even more community than business, time to loop the loop

fishmeat 9y ago

So, are there anyone already doing this? From the attitude towards Comcast, it looks like there will be lots of funding from people dying to get a better alternative.

IronWolve 9y ago

20 years ago, Spokane Washington had to redo its streets, so they laid fiber downtown before repaving. This allowed ISP's and telecoms to plug in and run very cheap ISP's and hosting services. Downtown telecom/isp exploded with connectivity. We found an older building had highspeed access due to fiber. We rented a small office, (closet really), and paid for 100meg connection to an ISP on a lower floor. Ran an entire ISP with dialup/dsl and hosting that was cheap, and even offered credit card processing. Years before comcast or large telecom offered DSL. Ive seen over the years, Spokane have large backup hub for PNW banks and other large bandwidth hungry companies move in. Hands on hosting services, Internet turn key web hosting, etc. All in a midwest type town due to the availability. Even across the border in Idaho, some smaller towns that now have fiber have startups popping up due to cheap land, cheap bandwidth, and low cost of living. I'm always seeing startups hiring big data dbas, network engineers and programmers. I just wish they would expand further into the very small rural towns. Wifi at my folks small town community center is packed with people due to dialup being the only thing available to the community. Either drive into Spokane, hope you have Verizon LTE coverage, or pay for limitted usage sat.

komali2 9y ago
When did governments stop caring about infrastructure as a direct investment in local commerce?
- adventured 9y ago
  The US will have to raise taxes dramatically at all levels, to do everything that people want it to do (or figure out how to grow the economy far faster). 40-50 years ago, entitlements for example were a small cost for states and the Federal Govt (a huge slush fund for the Federal Govt in fact, they wasted trillions of dollars in entitlement money they were supposed to save). Costs have climbed a lot in all regards, while revenue as a share of GDP has largely not gone up with it. If the US had fiscally responsible politicians, it would have a modest public debt, and trillions of dollars in a sovereign wealth fund derived from decades of surplus revenue for eg Social Security. Infrastructure would be a non-issue. Simply put, priorities. You can do this (spending up), but you have to do that (taxes up); or you can choose not to have that (spending down), and so you can do this (taxes down). Taxes are going up a lot either way, given the massive explosion in entitlement costs inbound, or QE is going to handle it with inflation. The US will hit a trillion per year in deficits in a few years, primarily due to entitlement costs, and partially due to excesss military spending.

duncan_bayne 9y ago

Semantics is important here. Most of these projects aren't community owned, they are socialised: taxpayers are compelled to fund them. It may seem like a small difference, but it's not - there are moral, economic and engineering consequences to forcing people to subsidise your broadband use. Imagine if people referred to State-owned factories in Soviet Russia as "community owned". That would immediately, and correctly, be criticised as propaganda.

rayiner 9y ago
Most of these systems are not socialized. They're from municipally-owned utilities that recover their expenses from ratepayers, not tax dollars.
- duncan_bayne 9y ago
  Why do you consider rates as distinct from other forms of compulsory taxation? It may be that rates where you are are a different thing to rates in Victoria (where I live). Here, rates are: * compulsory * "progressive", based on land value, not value of services provided * go towards services that may not be used by the ratepayer specifically, for example municipal swimming pools, not just say rubbish collection or road maintenance
  - rayiner 9y ago
    “Rate payers” is U.S. regulatory jargon for “user fees charges for use of regulated services.” Typically, electric, water, or sewer. In the US, the cost of these services is not paid for with tax dollars, but recovered from fees charged to those who use those services.
    - duncan_bayne 9y ago
      Ah, right! So actually there is a large difference - rates in the US are opt-in? So if I chose not to participate in a municipal broadband system, I wouldn't have to pay for it?

nateberkopec 9y ago

I live in a rural town in New Mexico of about 10,000 people. We get 50 megabit symmetrical fiber from the local co-op for about $60 a month. I think the fiber was funded by a USDA grant. One of the nice things is not having to deal with big-co customer service like Verizon or Comcast. You call up and you get a real person who lives in your town.

RyanShook 9y ago

Would love a how-to of community organized fiber. Seems like a simple concept with a ton of paperwork and hoops to jump.

grahamburger 9y ago
Not exactly what you're looking for, but I've been working on http://startyourownisp.com http://startyourownisp.com. It's focused on wireless rather than fiber but could still be applicable.
- RyanShook 9y ago
  Great resource, thank you.
pyvpx 9y ago
https://b4rn.org.uk/ https://b4rn.org.uk/

wilwade 9y ago

Just wanted to pipe in as I live in Chattanooga, TN one of the cities mentioned in the report. $58 a month for 100/100 ($70 for 1000/1000 and $300 for 10000/10000. that's right anywhere in the county you can get 10G/10G) and a bill that is always correct. I am here in part because of the fiber network. That said it is not just the fast internet, but the quality of the service people. They have always shown up on time and gone above and beyond each time. They know how to run a cable properly (drip curve for example). Plus they have a no data cap and net neutrality pledge. Feels like most of the rest of of the country is in the dark ages on most or all of those points.

jpbutler 9y ago

Data point of one: I'm on one of these networks, here in Concord, MA, and it's amazing. We already had municipal power, so it's the same organization and the same bill. I've been running for ~4 years with no blips at all. It's the first thing I recommend to people moving into town. http://www.concordnet.org/467/Broadband-Internet-Service http://www.concordnet.org/467/Broadband-Internet-Service

samch 9y ago

...but it’s illegal in North Carolina. https://www.wired.com/2011/05/nc-gov-anti-muni-broadband/ https://www.wired.com/2011/05/nc-gov-anti-muni-broadband/

WillReplyfFood 9y ago

Only slightly related, but is there a way to undo the range reduce in wifi routers. Basically- my old WiFi Router would cover the whole building- and after lightning strike - the newer model only covers a quarter of it. Support told us to buy repeaters. Wich i guess, is what they want people to do. Are there ways to restore the transmissionrange of the old models?

walshemj 9y ago
Don't use repeaters each hop cuts the bandwidth in half Use power line to connect to the router (for wired hosts) or have multiple AP's plus power line as the DS for your mobile devices. Which band are you using now, 2.4 is slower but has better range 5Ghz is faster but shorter range also look at congestion are you using the same channel as the next house Why can't you use your own router/ap? get one with external arenas and firmware (eg ddrwt) that can adjust tx power

greedo 9y ago

Lincoln Nebraska, Allo rolling out FTH throughout the city. 1Gb/sec for $90. Spectrum is trying to compete, but failing dramatically. No sympathy for the devil.