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Does freedom == privacy? I'd argue privacy is merely a facet of freedom, but public privacy is something I don't think our society is designed to support. The o

Does freedom == privacy? I'd argue privacy is merely a facet of freedom, but public privacy is something I don't think our society is designed to support. The only places I expect privacy are in my home and on the Internet (such as it can be). In public, people who anonymize themselves (e.g., with masks or unmarked vehicles) most often seek privacy for criminal reasons (e.g., thieves or violent protesters). Hence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-mask_laws But then a lot of Middle Eastern women seem to usually get away with it in places. If we decide that giving up public privacy is palatable (which you may not), only then can we move on to cameras. If we decide they're too powerful of a surveillance tool, law enforcement bodies are going to have to do a lot more hiring to deter crime! And China's bathrooms will need paper dispenser attendants. Oh, and adopt a no-cellphone Stallman policy or... legislate absolutely Zero Tracking(TM) carrier tower service or something.

ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
Why do you expect anonymity on the Internet, but not in real world?
- shrimp_emoji 9y ago
  Good question. I guess it's because it's more feasible and because I can't really hurt others here. The worst I can do is manipulate combinations of 1s and 0s to hack their accounts if their services' security isn't up to snuff or something. If someone hacked my bank, I'd blame the bank more than the hackers; if someone broke into my home and robbed or hurt me, I'd be harsher on them than on my door manufacturer! (Perhaps not even because it's easier to secure my door than it is an electronic banking system but because I'd be more hurt...)
  - ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
    Still someone breaking into your home will use a mask, and you will not be allowed to when buying things in a store.
    - shrimp_emoji 9y ago
      I'd rather they didn't in either case, although it is unfortunately difficult to acquire goods legitimately yet anonymously, so I lament that too. At the end of the day, Amazon knows a lot about me. Another distinction I just thought of is that while I have the option of having online accounts to be hacked (or silly-named personas to talk with), I have no option of having a physical place in meatspace to inhabit of my own where I keep my stuff. I need one, and, if I can't get one, I have bigger problems than privacy. :c
- chrisvalleybay 9y ago
  Maybe OP spends most of his time on the computer, and thus expects privacy on the Internet, as it might be his main interface to the world. Now, if OP spent most of his time outside and that was his primary interface to society, he would expect the same privacy there.
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago
> The only places I expect privacy are in my home and on the Internet (such as it can be). That is nonsense. If a group of people started following you everywhere in public, taking notes of everything you do, measuring anything they can about you that they can without touching you (which increasingly would include health information that is not readily apparent to everyone else) ... you are telling me that that would be perfectly in line with your expectation? It is unhelpful to conceptualize privacy as binary. Of course, you expect to be seen by other people on the street when you go outside. That does not mean that you expect to be stalked, nor that stalking was somehow an implicitly accepted behavioural norm all along. Technical capabilities change, and with it, we need to change how we enforce what was previously a natural outcome: You weren't invisible in public, but most people who saw you didn't recognize you and forgot about you within seconds to minutes of seeing you.
knownothing 9y ago
> Does freedom == privacy? The ability to think, speak, write, and associate freely requires privacy. It's not a question of the two being equivalent.

ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago

Why do you expect anonymity on the Internet, but not in real world?

shrimp_emoji 9y ago
Good question. I guess it's because it's more feasible and because I can't really hurt others here. The worst I can do is manipulate combinations of 1s and 0s to hack their accounts if their services' security isn't up to snuff or something. If someone hacked my bank, I'd blame the bank more than the hackers; if someone broke into my home and robbed or hurt me, I'd be harsher on them than on my door manufacturer! (Perhaps not even because it's easier to secure my door than it is an electronic banking system but because I'd be more hurt...)
- ycmbntrthrwaway 9y ago
  Still someone breaking into your home will use a mask, and you will not be allowed to when buying things in a store.
  - shrimp_emoji 9y ago
    I'd rather they didn't in either case, although it is unfortunately difficult to acquire goods legitimately yet anonymously, so I lament that too. At the end of the day, Amazon knows a lot about me. Another distinction I just thought of is that while I have the option of having online accounts to be hacked (or silly-named personas to talk with), I have no option of having a physical place in meatspace to inhabit of my own where I keep my stuff. I need one, and, if I can't get one, I have bigger problems than privacy. :c
chrisvalleybay 9y ago
Maybe OP spends most of his time on the computer, and thus expects privacy on the Internet, as it might be his main interface to the world. Now, if OP spent most of his time outside and that was his primary interface to society, he would expect the same privacy there.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 9y ago

> The only places I expect privacy are in my home and on the Internet (such as it can be). That is nonsense. If a group of people started following you everywhere in public, taking notes of everything you do, measuring anything they can about you that they can without touching you (which increasingly would include health information that is not readily apparent to everyone else) ... you are telling me that that would be perfectly in line with your expectation? It is unhelpful to conceptualize privacy as binary. Of course, you expect to be seen by other people on the street when you go outside. That does not mean that you expect to be stalked, nor that stalking was somehow an implicitly accepted behavioural norm all along. Technical capabilities change, and with it, we need to change how we enforce what was previously a natural outcome: You weren't invisible in public, but most people who saw you didn't recognize you and forgot about you within seconds to minutes of seeing you.

knownothing 9y ago

> Does freedom == privacy? The ability to think, speak, write, and associate freely requires privacy. It's not a question of the two being equivalent.