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You’re a developer, so why do you work for someone else?
- BigZaphod 16y agoFor me, the answer is: I like programming. If I did my own thing, I'd have to do all that other non-programming crap, too. Suddenly I wouldn't be a programmer anymore. Meh.
- bry 16y agoBut wouldn't it be more fun programming on YOUR terms, not your employer/boss' terms? Even if that meant you had to spend a bit more time managing your business?
- BigZaphod 16y agoI'm not so sure. My own terms are pretty hardcore... :)
- kd0amg 16y agoIs it actually just "a bit more time"? I can only go by what I hear from others, but the stories I read in HN comments make it sound like that "bit more" is at least half-time work.
- bry 16y agoDepends somewhat on your co-founders (if any), I guess
- nfriedly 16y agoWhen I was freelancing, 35-40 hours per week, it was quite often that I only got to spend 10 hours a week doing actually programing. Anything over 20 was amazing.
- dennisgorelik 16y agoYou are forgetting, that if you spend 20 hours/week on your own business, then you would spend most of these 20 hours thinking and only ~5 hours/week coding. Which would probably move your business forward very slowly.
- api 16y agoWhen you're running your own business, you work on the market's terms. The market is the most unforgiving, inflexible, demanding, and heartless boss of all.
- neeleshs 16y agoBut still, without that extra level of indirection of employer/manager between you and the market, the terms are not distorted and you have the freedom to interpret it in whichever way you want to. Of course, the consequences as well. I prefer market being my immediate boss than anyone else.
- jackowayed 16y agoThat's strange, given that a lot of people get out of their steady jobs because they're frustrated with how little time they have to code between meetings, random co-workers interrupting them, etc. I guess you work in an environment where that's kept to a minimum.
- BigZaphod 16y agoI guess that'd depend on the situation and I certainly understand that feeling - I've been there before! I presently work for http://iconfactory.com http://iconfactory.com, and we try to keep meetings to a minimum as a matter of principal. Artists need flow to do their thing just as us programmers do, and the company is run by artists. I'm also remote so the only random co-worker interruptions I have are via iChat.
- sprout 16y agoI'd still call that programming. Turning requirements into code is part of the job, and even if you spend all day doing nothing but listening to people spout incoherent requirements at you, you're still wearing the hat of a programmer. Contrast that with a startup where you wear many hats at once, including spouting incomprehensible requirements yourself, and I think that's where I'd tend to agree with the parent poster.
- neild 16y agoIndeed, and bravo for recognizing this. Not all meetings are meaningful, of course, but communicating with your coworkers and customers is an essential part of the practice of producing software.
- jon_hendry 16y ago"No, seriously, a @#$% goldmine! Never in modern history has it been so easy to create something from scratch, with little or no capital and a marketing model that is limited only by your imagination." ie, high supply. Lots of competition. It's getting to be like writing novels. Lots of people do it. The barriers to entry are low. But few can make a living at it.
- muhfuhkuh 16y agoBut that's _everything_ worth doing, and isn't that how it's always been? For every Jimi Hendrix there were a zillion teenagers sitting in their poster-filled room with desires to melt faces and change the world with the power of Rock. Or for every Steel Magnate, there were guys running a 10-man shops hoping to roll enough steel this quarter to buy the coke smelter down the road a ways. It all starts somewhere, and almost everything with any market visibility has hundreds if not thousands of everyone from Mom and Pops to multinationals gunning for the big ring. This is why the corporations dominate: They know the "little guys" like us don't think it's worth it to disrupt their industries. I'd say the only technology company that really takes alot of capital to start is product manufacturing business, and even then, aren't there whole industries catering to garage businesses like thomasnet or rapid prototyping firms? Or just bootstrap it like DODOCase.
- eavc 16y ago"But that's _everything_ worth doing" Emphatically, NO!, it isn't. If the only thing worth being in your worldview is the equivalent of Jimi Hendrix, you are setting yourself up for disappointment, and you have a small view of your fellow man. There are thousands of ways to make a living that are not as competitive or as risky as entrepreneurship--and far less zero-sum too. The global impact of a job well-done is but one measure. Perhaps an even more important one is the attitude with which you approach your work and the meaning you make for yourself.
- ohyes 16y ago'This is why the corporations dominate: They know the "little guys" like us don't think it's worth it to disrupt their industries.' Also, huge advantages in terms of economies of scale, financing, lawyers, patent portfolios... and if you are successful, they buy you or you become a big corporation...
- moultano 16y agoFor me, the answer is that the large organization I'm working for actually lets me have a larger impact than I could likely have working on my own. So long as my debit card keeps working and I keep building up savings, the quantity of compensation doesn't matter too much to me. What matters to me is how much I positively impact the world, and on that front improving a mature product with a ton of users has a much bigger bang for the buck than scratching small itches in small niches, no matter how profitable they might end up being.
- patio11 16y agoYou'd be surprised how much impact you can have even in a small niche. I've got a pretty small product in elementary education and, depending on your assumptions about how many teachers convert to classroom use after using the site, I've taught between 100,000 and 1 million student-hours in the last year.
- reitzensteinm 16y agoAnd god help you if you write games. At some point in my career I'll pass the billion hours of time wasted, at which point I won't know whether to celebrate or cry. Thankfully that day is still 5-10 years off.
- patio11 16y agoYou entertain people. It is an honest occupation. (Paraphrased from Tom Clancy, in response to the question "Do you write literature?")
- mattmanser 16y agoAnd one day it will be the only viable occupation for us Humans, its the ultimate profession in my book.
- moultano 16y agoFor this reason I love Jonathan Blow's attitude about game development. "Every puzzle in Braid is unique. There is no filler. Braid treats your time and attention as precious. Braid does everything it can to give you a mind-bending experience."
- quellhorst 16y agoI do contracting to pay the bills while I build my own web app. It is difficult but by working 80 hours a week I'm making progress. Hopefully the sacrifices I have made are worth it in the end.
- aymeric 16y agoI personally work three days a week as a consultant and I work on my startup the rest of the week. I don't have to sacrifice anything, the journey is very pleasant and I have the confidence that one day I won't need any consulting work anymore.
- qqqq2010 16y agoAt the beginning of the learning curve, there's little better for grasping topics than hearing someone else explain them. I've learned more (almost entirely by virtue of genius co-workers) in the first 6 months of my current, first, developer job than I did in ~2 years of self learning and freelancing.
- chc 16y agoI find that these really strong "screw employment!" kind of opinions like this tend to come from people who haven't really been successful following the path they espouse — it's always "aspiring" entrepreneurs, as this writer puts it. Either this kind of attitude is unhelpful or reality tends to temper it.
- bry 16y agoWhy can't it be from someone who genuinely wants to encourage others like him? If you read it again, it isn't necessarily all about "screw employment". It deals with the reality of trying to build something while necessarily employed in several places.
- chc 16y agoWell, sure, but I just don't feel all that encouraged by somebody making grandiose claims that are based on neither experience nor hard data. I don't mean to imply that anyone's heart is in a bad place, but it just reads to me like somebody selling himself on a get rich quick scheme. I know people who have bankrupted themselves on that sort of thing, so this kind of baseless exuberance makes me feel concerned.
- city41 16y agoIf I really wanted to, sure I could scrounge up the extra free time to pursue my ideas. But then my entire life would be my day job and my side project, at the expense of absolutely everything else. There is nothing wrong with that if that is what is important to you. But I also value friendships, exercise, reading, relaxing, cooking, etc. A nice balanced life is crucial for good health and well being. I would argue for most people, the cost of completely throwing away all balance in your life would not match the reward that your product would bring once launched.
- bry 16y ago"Economically, you can think of a startup as a way to compress your whole working life into a few years. Instead of working at a low intensity for forty years, you work as hard as you possibly can for four. This pays especially well in technology, where you earn a premium for working fast." - Paul Graham http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html http://www.paulgraham.com/wealth.html
- mapleoin 16y agoIt stops making sense economically if you consider the high risk of failure though.
- mistermann 16y agoExactly...one of my recent ventures was spending evenings and weekends for a few months building a prototype HR compensation system for a big company I had done consulting with for years, we had a very good relationship. All the requirements were met and the hard problems were solved (lots of UI work remained). When it came to decision time, they decided to develop in house instead of licensing my product for $50k. How much did they spend in house? $1 million plus (and counting). Plus, they missed their launch date so have to use the old solution for another year. I could have made the deadline easily. The point is, the risk of failure is not just that your product is not good enough, it is that the people that make the decisions are often, if not usually, simply not qualified to be serving in the positions they hold. Targeting individual consumers vs privately owned businesses vs publicly traded corporations are three entirely different situations. If I had to recommend one, I would target the privately owned business sector - there are less developers targeting this market (as it requires domain knowledge), and they actually care about ROI, whereas with a corporation, they are often more concerned about the appearance of ROI.
- smackfu 16y agoBecause I don't have to work very hard and they pay well.
- c1sc0 16y agoUpvoted because I understand that not everyone has this desire to produce something. I'd wager that the default mental state for most people is idleness.
- mseebach 16y agoColleagues. I get to meet and work with a bunch of interesting and talented people, without asking them to marry me (which is what many here likens the co-founder experience to). Also, my employer has a quite significant sales and client management staff. I don't enjoy sales or client management much, and consequently I'm not good at it (or maybe it's the other way around), so I'm happier when other people do that for me. I might do a start-up one day. But until then, this is a pretty sweet deal.
- danw 16y agoI have an excellent job where I get to work with lovely people and solve interesting problems. I'll leave the admin, business development & marketing to folks who are better skilled at such things for now, thank you very much.
- derwiki 16y agoTo shorten: I want to code, not do the other crap. :)
- cake 16y agoWhat's your job ?
- sasidharm 16y agoI thought i was in the same boat as you until recently. Now the same job, which i thought was excellent, is boring and not interesting anymore. The people i used to love working with dont seem so nice now. What do i do now?
- Tichy 16y agoWow, 20 hours? Personally I don't think I can realistically create much on the side with a full time job. I tend to be extremely tired at the end of the work day. So I think my only option is to quit my job again :-( Maybe it is also my sleeping patterns just don't align with jobs. Today I simply had to sleep around 9pm (home from the job at 8). Slept till perhaps 11pm. Now I feel reasonably fit, but to be at the office in time, it is time to go to bed. I experience this kind of pattern frequently. In fact I sometimes wonder if the biggest mistake of my life was trying to adapt to other people's schedules (also girl-friends who want to go to bed "early" etc). Thereby I wasted most of my productive hours. My typical work day at the office is painful because I tend to be tired...
- megablast 16y agoYou need to change something if that is true? I am guessing you do not exercise, and do not eat well. It is amazing how you can put a little effort in, and change a lot.
- Tichy 16y agoWish it was that easy, but I do exercise and I think my diet is not that bad. Still looking for a solution.
- jon_hendry 16y agoMaybe get checked for sleep apnea? If you have it, you repeatedly stop breathing during the night. It isn't long enough to kill you, but it's long enough to lift you out of deep sleep into shallower sleep, or keep you from entering the deep sleep states.
- Tichy 16y agoThanks, I have been to a lab before and they said my snoring is not too bad. They wanted to give me medication against restless legs, but I didn't want to take it.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- pibefision 16y agoI'm starting to get sick with this kind of posts. Please stop.
- dennisgorelik 16y agoWhat kind of posts would you like to read instead?
- kd0amg 16y agoWhile I wouldn't go so far as to say this type of post is problematic, what really drew me into this site were things like http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1156628 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1156628
- exit 16y agostop writing them? stop reading them? stop upvoting them? no.
- japherwocky 16y agoYeah, I'm with you.. the article is dramatic Disney fluff with no real wisdom or insight.
- dannyr 16y agoSuggested Title: "You’re an entrepreneurial developer, so why do you work for someone else?"
- mortenjorck 16y ago"You're a chef, so why don't you start your own restaurant?" "You're a mechanic, so why don't you start your own garage?" "You're a retail manager, so why don't you start your own store?" Ad absurdum. But yes, add "entrepreneurial" to any of those and they become perfectly valid questions. But then it really just comes down to "You're entrepreneurially inclined, so why don't you start your own business?"
- smallegan 16y agoEach of those questions can quite simply be answered "Lack of Capital"....This is what is unique about being a software developer. As mentioned in the article you don't need funding to get something up and running.
- enanoretozon 16y agowhat about funding to keep self and family up and running?
- smallegan 16y agoThis was addressed in the first part of the article. It doesn't need to be a full time endeavor to start.
- nir 16y agoI'm happy for the author and wish him success. But the assumption that being a good developer can make you rich is misleading. Reading PG may create the impression that building a successful company is an engineering-like process, deterministic and repeatable. It is not. It's a chaotic process that cannot be reliably planned. Thinking "Zuckerberg coded a PHP app, I can code a PHP app" is like thinking "That old lady bought a lottery ticket. I can buy a lottery ticket.." Building a smaller business that supports a few people is a different story (and a worthy goal unto itself). But that's not "sitting on a goldmine". EDIT: Just wanted to add I have huge respect for this guy, building a business while supporting a family. My beef, such as it is, is with simplistic picture of startups often painted in HN. The actual people giving it a go, you have to respect.
- nuggien 16y agoyour lottery ticket analogy is excellent :)
- kiba 16y ago500 dollars a month business is better than nothing. It could even fund your kids' college fund.
- movingtohawaii 16y agoRight now I'm working on a little something of my own, and if I can reach 500$ a month that will almost cover half of my college tuition :) (state school)
- jules 16y agoThat would nearly cover all my expenses, including rent, food, and tuition.
- nir 16y agoAs I wrote, a worthy goal unto itself but not "sitting on a goldmine".
- jscore 16y ago1. Just because you build it, doesn't mean they will come. There's something called marketing, promotion and luck. and 2. Development and business/marketing skills are very very different.
- gamble 16y agoProtip: if you're a founder or aspiring to start a company that may one day employ others, try not to write blog posts that question why anyone would ever work for you.
- trustfundbaby 16y agoThe headline is a little sensationalist but the writer himself works fulltime, so I think its clear that he's not saying that you should never work for anyone.
- nrb 16y agoI remember reading somewhere about a company that actually preferred people who wanted to work at the company as their last job before founding a startup. IIRC their reasoning was that the employee would give it their all, as a "last hurrah", and try to make a name for themselves (to the company's benefit) when they left to found their startup. A shame I can't find the article now.
- wenbert 16y agoI was a full-time programmer. The job I was in was draining my energy and programming became really boring. While I had the job, I worked on the side developing websites. I also had a bunch of pet-projects for fun - hopefully people will use them and I can earn more money. But fast forward a few years, programming wasn't fun anymore. I was too tired to finish my projects. So, I quit my job and moved to a non-programming job. The pay as of now, is not that high, but I am happier. The job is fairly easy on the brain. That means less stress and I have more time to think while I am at home coding my personal project. Maybe my programming job sucked or it was something else. I could go on like this until I finish my personal project.
- sabat 16y agoAll this naysaying and negative, defeatist thinking: this is exactly why you will not succeed in a startup. Positivity is a necessary -- albeit not sufficient -- factor in creating something new.
- jasonkester 16y agoAh, but the naysaying is not coming from people trying to start startups. It's coming from people happy in their jobs who don't want us trying to convince them they're doing it wrong. Why should it matter if they're negative about entrepreneurial stuff? To the startup side of HN, this article is just another "me too" piled on top of dozens of copies of itself every month. There's nothing particularly insightful about it, so there's no need to jump into the comments and dump a ton of praise onto it. A simple upvote will suffice, which explains why it has 120 of them.
- sabat 16y agoYou're right, of course. I was just surprised to see naysaying on a site that has such a strong startup vibe. To the startup side of HN, this article is just another "me too" piled on top of dozens of copies of itself every month True. I liked it, though. I thought it was well-worded and somewhat inspiring. Certainly I'd thought of a lot of this stuff before, and seen it here. With the current economic tornado, though, some of us were unconsciously beginning to lose hope and faith -- myself, at least. Reading about how this guy keeps at it after his kids had gone to bed: that was encouraging and inspiring. I have one kid. If he can do it ...
- sabat 16y agoI really should not have been so surprised. The article may seem offensive to people who are not especially interested in doing a startup; it demands that they question their own motivations, and some people are quite content working for The Man. I can be, sometimes.
- hippich 16y agoI need to support my visa =(
- keeptrying 16y agoFocus on what you can do. I was in the same boat and I used to think like you. It was a wrong way to think and wasted a lot of my time.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- prototype56 16y agowhat is the right way to think?
- hippich 16y agoi am keeping work on my own projects. but still, there is no easier way to get legally permanently to usa without work visa and following greencard. dv lottery is not a way (but i keep trying) and i am already married =) and do not have 500k-1m to invest into something too =)
- keeptrying 16y agoReread your comment. What are you again focussing on? Send me an email via hackernewsers.com . I wrote up an article that I sent to others wu had contacted me and I think it might help you.
- n8agrin 16y agoTwo words: student loans.
- giardini 16y agoReminds me of C.S. Forester's memoirs about writers. Forester found it easy to create plot ideas but hadn't enough time to write all of them. He had (later successful) friends who, once given a plot, could quickly flesh out a full story. They, on the other hand, had little ability to conceive plots! So he passed ideas to them and they did the rest. We're all different. Some can see all aspects of a project, others can beautifully manage the startup, some can hone a roughly-hewn project to perfection, and still others can document a project beautifully. They're all useful. Not everyone can do everything well, nor is it necessary. Man is a social animal for a reason: groups can do things that no single man could do.
- nostrademons 16y agoIt's interesting, when Hacker News first started (and was called "Startup News"), I used to make ra-ra comments like this all the time. Like the author, I had little practical experience in actually succeeding at entrepreneurship. And yet they'd be voted up really high. Once in a while, some old salt like, say, the guy who founded Digg or the guy who founded Symbolics would reply and say "You're naive and ignorant. You won't think so poorly of jobs once you've run your own company for a while" (in nicer terms, of course). But by and large, Startup News loved wild-eyed optimism. Now, the vast majority of comments hold that same sort of "Well, it's more complicated than that, and I'm quite happy with my 9-5" view. Sometimes even my own. I wonder if that's representative of the economy changing, or if it's representative of the site's audience changing. If it's the former, maybe it means that now is a good time to found a startup.
- jasonkester 16y agoIt's just a reflection of the changing demographics here. People tend to justify whatever it is they're doing at the moment. So you and me will talk up the entrepreneurial side of things and snoot down our noses at the "wage slaves". It's not that we actually know any better, but if we do this enough it'll seem like we're not so far out on a limb. Back in the day, that was the only crowd here, so this sort of article (or comment) would get nothing but love. Now, HN is more or less evenly split between entrepreneurs and people who actually read those articles about programming languages. Those are guys with jobs. Good jobs, thank you very much, that pull in more each and every day than our little "startups" gross in a month. They have their own world view to justify, so now we get to listen to their story.
- tezza 16y agoI've been on 496 days and reading a while before I bothered to create a login. I think you can detect waves of: cheerleading -> group think -> counterexamples -> lots of couterexamples -> not so much group think The cheerleading topic tends to change with what is hot. Data Points, Django, Cloud, Bootstrapping, I Failed ... have all had their cycle. These cycles seems to play out over 4 months IMO. Regular events like YC admission events create repeated waves. Wild downvoting can occur if you try to give counter-examples in a cheerleading or group-think phase (yes I'm bitter ;))
- jteo 16y agoIt is better to be lucky than good.
- AndyKelley 16y agoYou'll notice that, as you get better, your luck seems to be strangely increasing.
- GFischer 16y ago"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." - Thomas Jefferson. or "Diligence is the mother of good luck." - Benjamin Franklin
- nadam 16y agoIt is interesting how much this blog post is not relevant to my status. I always wanted to create my own startup, and nearly always had pet projects for this purpose on the side. It is no news to me that starting a startup is a cool thing. I dont' watch TV, and I don't need a Palsma TV. But I have a family to care about, I live in a quite poor country and I need a day job. I think I am a good developer, but I don't think my knowledge is a goldmine. They pay approximately $2000 per month for even very very good developers in my country. This is not a goldmine. I made 3 projects to the sellable product phase in my life, and all failed. The first was too ambitious and I could not keep up with competitors like google. (natural language translation from english to my mother language) The second was an Indie game: The critics said it was done professionally, but it was not especially playable, it was not fun enough. The third was not ambitious enough: This was a small software for the consumer market (language learning), It got lost amongst the thousands of small shareware tools on download.com and also there were free products which were partially competitors. I start to lose my energy. (Having a boring day job for years is not fun.) Of course I build something again on the side. I think it is a better idea than the previous ones. I cannot stop. But I will never ever will have the optimism like the OP.
- kunley 16y agoOut of curiosity, which country is it?
- nadam 16y agoI live in Hungary. (Eastern Europe.) It is not an especially poor country, but poor compared to Western Europe and the USA. Multinational companies mostly bring here only the boring jobs. (I can understand them: they don't want to offshore their main competencies.)
- kunley 16y agoI can imagine. I live in Poland, that's why I asked. I guess you agree that our nations have things in common: kind of stubbornness but also wild imagination. There are even some old historical sayings about it.. We seem to have completely non-transparent politicians and similar economic struggles as well. Still your country seems to have good opinion in the wild and also Budapest seems more civilized than our capital, which is important for multinational companies. I guess the best we can do is to risk build something ourselves when the right moment comes -- read: when we have some savings for at least couple of months. If we fail we will be still considered as early adopters of tech things (because what we decide to use is usually better and more modern than so-called "industry standards") which is good for finding another job. Since 2 years I'm switching between consulting and doing own stuff every several months - it didn't generated big income but I build few non-profit things which is also very good and gave me lots of experience. By non-profit I don't mean open source - I mean organizations or users who behave like real customers but aren't businesses. I didn't get rich but it was fun and gave me some insights for the future. Good luck !!
- wccrawford 16y ago"Myth #1: I don’t have any time" If you think this is a myth, you need to re-examine what you want from life. Everyone needs time to relax. Playing games, surfing the web, going to the gym... Everyone does it differently, but everyone needs it. You can give up your 'free time' for a while and work on something, but it will eventually crash in on you and you will start hating your life. I have too many hobbies. Every once in a while, my hobbies will start to run my life and I'll start getting depressed. When that happens, I stop and decide which of them are things I really want to do, and which aren't. I prioritize my hobbies. That relieves the stress again and I can relax. If you can really relax while working on a programming project, then go ahead. But when it starts to stress you out due to a deadline or other outside influence, it stops being fun and starts stressing you out. Being stressed out will affect everything you do and it will all go down in flames. I have a few programming projects that I'm working on in my spare time. Nobody knows about them, so there's no pressure to finish them. I just have fun with them and work on them at my leisure. As soon as I release them to the world, they are going to get very stressful. Yes, someone else might think of the same ideas first and beat me to it, but I'm taking my time, doing it right, and I'll release when it's convenient for me. If that turns into something big, I can quit my day job. If not, not.
- whouweling 16y agoThe thing that struck me in this post is: "it's all about money". (the goldmine aspect) I think money is an especially a bad motivation for starting your own product. So if its about being creative, doing lots of different projects, having an influence on what your working on and where the product is going: you can do this working for the right company as well. Of course the level of control is higher when you're running your own company, but so are the risks. Isn't the important question: is the process important, i.e programming & working on interesting ideas, or is it the end result that counts, i.e having a successful product that is generating an income for you and where you have total control over?
- hnal943 16y agoPosts like this that advocate working on your start up by squeezing hours out of your day ignore the switching costs involved. Even when I do decide to turn my hour TV-time into an hour of project-time, it takes a while to get back into the flow and remember what it is I was working on. With start up and shut down, I end up exchanging an hour of TV-time for 20 mins of productive work.
- njharman 16y agoI'm working for someone else precisely because I'm a developer. I like developing. I don't like running a startup. Is it really that hard to understand?
- retube 16y agoJust cos you can write code doesn't mean you can start a business: 1) You need a decent idea. This is the "cheapest" bit, and actually even this is quite hard. what businesses or consumers want (and how they want it) is usually quite different to what you'd naively think. 2) Can you really execute it well? Most ideas will require more than the skill set of one developer. 3) Do you have a route to market? This is the hardest. You can have the best executed product in the world, if you've got no way of selling it it's worthless. And this doesn't just mean oh I'm going to sell it to telcos - it means which telcos, and WHO at these telcos? Are you going to be cold-calling a massive company trying to find the right person to speak to about your product? (if so, good luck!) 4) Are you prepared to work ridiculous hours for sod-all pay, and go through all the stresses, uncertainties and ups-and-downs that starting a business involves? There's a lot to be said for a regular, essentially risk-free check every month. Yes: you can start a software-based business with little more than a PC and an internet connection. But so can everyone else: there's no advantage here.