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The Empathy Gap in Tech: Interview with a Software Engineer

381 points by Radim 9y ago

dijit 9y ago
His childhood mirrors my own, although academic success is inverted. I wonder if there is some trait which transfixed us for life, I am certain that the interviewee (Gideon) and I are not alone. It also beggars the question. Although very non-PC. That were I a girl I would not be dissuaded from this course. I know this because there was literally zero support from anyone regarding computing as a hobby or profession. In fact the opposite, they actively fought against it. Again. I think I'm very unalone in this regard.
- watwut 9y ago
  I have seen multiple women express surprise that I am programmer because "but you are women" or "I did not knew women can do that". I live in a bit behind the times place, obviously. Conversely, I have seen parents shocked that someone would put boy on art lesson. Is that part of your answer? Nevertheless, among my friends, parents agains boy doing computing were practically nonexistent. Computer was usually in boy room and boys were heavily praised for every tiny thing they knew and expected to deal. Their sisters largely aware that it is for boys and not expected of anything (not in my familly I found out only much later). Note that my parents seen spending much time with computer as waste of time and were systematically attempting to send me out - but they did not seen it boyish nor seen me fundamentally incapable to master it. I had reasonable access to computer and to some books that were in household.
  - b6 9y ago
    > Computer was usually in boy room and boys were heavily praised for every tiny thing they knew and expected to deal. Their sisters largely aware that it is for boys Among my friends, it was the opposite. I have two close male friends who, like me, were obsessed with computers for at least 20 years. In both cases, their parents bought computers for their sisters, not them. Their parents encouraged their sisters to get into computers, but it was the guys who became obsessed with computers and programming, having never particularly been encouraged to do so.
  - dijit 9y ago
    > Computer was usually in boy room and boys were heavily praised for every tiny thing they knew and expected to deal. Their sisters largely aware that it is for boys Thats notable. I can see the opposite is true among my friends who are younger, the girls got laptops because they need to socialise (and privately). Boys use the family computer placed in a communal area for fear they were going to watch porn I suppose. But I'm older and when I was young the Internet was not entirely common. Computers were not ubiquitous and those who worked with them were considered sub-human. I can understand a parent not wanting their child to be a "loser" and I believe it cuts over gendered lines.
    - watwut 9y ago
      I count myself lucky to never having to deal with that "who uses computer is subhuman" thing. It was more of admired, because it implied that you have money. But interesting thing is, most of the time people back then speent on irc and muds. I frankly find this setup quite unfair too, but don't see it around me being repeated. Not just because of boy access to private chat, but because of assumption parents openly makes about him. "You would mostly watched porn" is terrible message to the kid. I am also trying to teach my kids that computers are for more then just socializing and porn and show them productive things and puzzlers and such.
- ioult 9y ago
  > It also beggars the question. Although very non-PC. That were I a girl I would not be dissuaded from this course. I know this because there was literally zero support from anyone regarding computing as a hobby or profession. In fact the opposite, they actively fought against it. That's not "non-PC" on Hacker News. A lot of people here belive that there are few to no legitimate reasons for women to not be programmers and that they just don't want to. What isn't PC on Hacker News is the idea that it isn't society who is against women as programmers, but the environment built by "us". That maybe it isn't this environment that is more accepting than all others, but that "we" just fit in.
  - greenrd 9y ago
    > What isn't PC on Hacker News is the idea that it isn't society who is against women as programmers, but the environment built by "us". That maybe it isn't this environment that is more accepting than all others, but that "we" just fit in. I don't find your comment un-PC, because I fail to understand it. What are you trying to say?
    - orangea 9y ago
      They are saying that people on Hacker News like to believe that the reason for the lack of gender diversity in technology culture is not due to a problem with technology culture, but rather due to a problem in other parts of society (gender norms). People on Hacker News think this because they feel safe and accommodated by technology culture and assume that it must be the same for other women.
      - greenrd 9y ago
        Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. So what specifically do we need to do in tech? This is all very vague generalities at this point.
        ioult 9y ago
        > Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. Dismissing opnions you disagree with as inconsequential or belonging to some agenda is essentially the core of political correctness. (At least if with the definition of "things hard to talk about", rather than which words to use). > So what specifically do we need to do in tech? What to do isn't the problem. Not only can you find far better writing on the subject in the wild, but there are people are already doing it. But since you are asking I will give you an example. Hacker culture puts a large, disproportionately so even, emphasis on hobbyism. Stories like the one in the article, getting started when you were young and not doing much else are meriting. For a women to have be able have the same experience they would have to engage in a largely male dominated culture at an age (as in seniority) when many boys nor girls aren't particularly sociable with people of the opposite sex and when fitting in is especially important. So when we value things in computer culture other than things with technical merit and instead put merit in peoples backgrounds or the tools they use we do so with a culture that largely isn't accessible to women. Maybe that is vague to you, but not everything is clear cut. As a said, people doing things change this. They give girls opportunities to get excited by technology in their own way. They give women from other fields a chance to get acclimated at tech companies on their own terms. They try to emphasis the things you can do with technology instead of the culture etc.
tzahola 9y ago
The author is walking on thin ice by suggesting that sexual dimorphism has a significant effect on cognitive abilities. For her own safety, I hope she doesn’t live in San Francisco.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  Hence the pseudonym and the quote saying "If he didn’t get the message that the women in science movement wasn’t interested in dialogue and is glad to destroy anyone who questioned it then he must be [on the spectrum]. The only reason why it was him rather than me winding up that [kind of] situation is that I realized what was happening well enough to keep my mouth shut at work and to also turn down an offer from Google, since I knew that they [are] one of the worst offenders, if not the worst."
- nukeop 9y ago
  You think it doesn't?
  - domlebo70 9y ago
    They are suggesting that SF has a reactionary view to that notion.
- worldsayshi 9y ago
  Hmm, isn't it more about a tendency of where interest is directed rather than cognitive ability? Girls do better than boys in school (1). Which is arguably also about motivation rather than ability. It seems that they are systematically discouraged to go towards a math/logic path though (2). It's complicated. The truth seems to be more nuanced than what we have ever been able to fit into a single narrative. (1) - https://www.education.com/reference/article/gender-academic-achievement/ https://www.education.com/reference/article/gender-academic-... (2) - https://www.google.se/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2015/mar/05/girls-lack-self-confidence-maths-science-oecd-school-engineering https://www.google.se/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/20...
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
> He said that society increasingly sees groups instead of individuals, to the extent that group rights may supersede individual rights in all sorts of contexts, including politicised work environments. Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is true of men. Because women are now a victimised class, men are increasingly seen as victimisers, irrespective of their individual attributes or actions. > The second factor, he thought, was an attachment to an outdated, blank slate view of human nature. He says that many people still insist on seeing the human brain as predominantly moulded by culture, despite scientific evidence to the contrary. There tends to be a hesitancy towards attributing any differences between people to any cause that is biological in origin. This hesitancy has been around for decades, and appears like it will not be alleviated anytime soon. I agree with the first paragraph here, but not the second. I really believe that culture plays more of a part than most people think. Cultural differences would explain the higher wages among Asian Americans and Jews, this despite the historic racism that both of those groups have experienced. Both groups are minorities, yet on average still exceed in our society more than others.
- fyi1183 9y ago
  To play devils advocate, the success of Asian Americans and Jews could also be explained by genetics. My own biases as well as basic knowledge of the respective cultures makes me fairly certain that it's culture in both cases rather than genetics, though.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    The issue with claiming that genetics causes the success of certain races is that there is greater genetic variation within races than between them, and that there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success. Plus that kind of thinking can lead to racist discrimination, which isn't good.
    - namenotrequired 9y ago
Niksko 9y ago
This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. I think labeling or delineating women as 'vulnerable or marginalised' and ignoring their unique qualities and idiosyncrasies is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I legitimately didn't realise what the tone or conclusion of the article were going to be when I first started reasoning, because it does a good job of presenting scientific research without any inherent judgements. The other thing this article achieves that the cited manifesto failed to achieve was not to necessarily provide judgement, criticism or suggestions around 'what should be done about problem xyz'. It presents some facts, presents some opinions, and then (thankfully) doesn't decide to rip the hard work of well intentioned people to shreds. And for that, I think this should be commended.
- rndgermandude 9y ago
  Not particular to the Google stuff, but more of a general observation: I am very much in favor of ripping the hard work of well-intentioned people to sheds, if it deserved to be ripped to shreds, like e.g. the fine "make proper God-fearing Christians of all those dark-skinned heathens" (the missionaries were/still are quite often well-intentioned and hard-working). Now, some of the stuff that is done, well-intentioned, in the tech industry to promote diversity and/or make the workplace a friendlier space for women and other groups may end up achieving opposite results, driving co-workers apart and making the work environment more toxic for everybody. Therefore, we must be able to discuss and criticize any and all such programs, and therefore the hard work somebody put into them, and stop such programs if we determine a detrimental outcome. Like in science: you prod and poke and even try to shred-rip a theory (somebody put a lot of effort into), and if that theory withstands it probably is solid and sound.
  - Niksko 9y ago
seanhandley 9y ago
> Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is true of men. Because women are now a victimised class, men are increasingly seen as victimisers, irrespective of their individual attributes or actions. I cannot agree with this more. Very, very well observed and phrased.
- nukeop 9y ago
  I think these kinds of antagonisms are central to American society. Other parts of the world often find them alien and incomprehensible.
  - swombat 9y ago
    Not true - the Karpman drama triangle (victim-aggressor-rescuer) is a fundamentally human way of seeing the world (however dysfunctional and unhelpful) and so it is present all around the world, not just in the US. I would agree that based on what I read about it, the US seems to be particularly in the grip of this perspective though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
    - pgeorgi 9y ago
      The question is if other societies also adopt the triangle for classes of people in the way the American society does. Not all countries have "affirmative action" laws, which essentially codify victimhood large scale - and also beg the question in which other bucket everybody else belongs. Add an intuitive and statist interpretation of the drama triangle (instead of acknowledging that the same persons can be in different roles at any given time) and you have a society of people rushing to demonstrate that they're not the aggressor, either by ending up protected ("victim") or protecting ("rescuer").
      - tajen 9y ago
        I have extensively studied the statistics about neoteny (=compassion gap) in USA vs Europe and they are very close to each other. If you’re talking about the position of women in the Taliban culture, this is a very interesting talk, despite the title: https://youtu.be/5eqYEVYZgdo https://youtu.be/5eqYEVYZgdo
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
infinity0 9y ago
I always felt that the fact that the tech industry is so welcome to techies and people with "aspie"-type personalities, indicates that in fact we as an industry have more empathy than other industries (or social groups) that shun these types of people (myself included) for what I believe are very superficial reasons. So, I think the title of the article is extremely biased and draws the wrong conclusions from the writer's own research.
- probably_wrong 9y ago
  I'll have to disagree with your conclusion. If a group is composed mostly of members of a shunned social group, do they have more empathy than others just because they are friendlier to members of that specific shunned social group? I am immensely grateful for the nerd-friendliness of the tech industry, as I spent my teen years being mocked for being a nerd. But if the tech industry has a higher-than-average number of members who are slightly anti-social, is it really surprising when people accuse this group of having little empathy to members of other social groups? It is entirely possible for the tech industry to be nerd-friendly and women-hostile at the same time. I'm not saying it is the case, but it could be. And while I've been vocal against the idea of "hide the nerds so girls won't be scared of joining CS programs", I think it's worth considering whether we are being welcoming enough.
  - infinity0 9y ago
    I never said techies have "more empathy". I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of media attack-pieces blasting techies for having "less empathy", something that is entirely at odds with my own experience. edit: apparently I did say that. It was in reaction to an inflammatory title I feel is deeply wrong. People, including the writers of articles like "techies aren't empathetic", like to talk about virtues like "empathy" and apply them positively or negatively to groups they feel part of / outside of. Much of the time, it has nothing to do with the actual virtue, but with this tribalistic instinct of being part of or outside of different groups. Pretending the discussion is about "empathy" is really doing a disservice to analysis of social groups. Some less-systematic people are annoyed that more-systematic people do better within the tech industry, which in today's world is becoming more and more important for economic success. So they want to explain this away as "more-systematic people are less empathetic". What is actually the case, is "more-systematic people are less empathetic to less-systematic behaviour". But we're plenty-empathetic to people that "get us". And in the other direction, people that this author assumes are "more empathetic" are actually really really extremely non-empathetic to more-systematic people. edit: assumed the article was another "techies are less empathetic" hit-job, but turns out it is making a different point from all the rest
Semkas 9y ago
I have aspergers, and empathize with the feeling that society doesn't much care about our struggle (or, for that matter, knows how to deal with anyone who isn't neurotypical). One thing I have come to realize though (and I know this will be controversial on here) is that SV and tech in general is this special place where people with limited social skills can go to work for really high salaries to create things of often dubious societal value. I remember reading in a similar article that many "classical-liberal" types think that the wage-gap between man and woman may be caused by the fact that woman are naturally less competitive. Meaning that they are less careerist. This is of course a failure of meritocracy, in the same way that charisma often trumps skill at a job (which is the big problem for anti social men). Here is my point: we have these different failures of meritocracy affecting different people, but for people (mostly men) with aspergers there is this special, well paying, industry. So I don't know that we have it that bad, or that efforts to attract more woman (even if you consider the given reasons to be bogus) are really misguided.
- hateduser2 9y ago
  The act that you don’t see the value in charisma says nothin about whether or not it should trump productivity. I think it’s highly reasonable that it would and maybe obvious that it should.
  - Semkas 9y ago
    I see the value in charisma, but it seems uncontroversial to me that what most people consider "fair" is hiring people for their skill at a job, not their ability to make the interviewer like them.
    - chrisbroadfoot 9y ago
      Charisma is a valuable skill as a software engineer. Have you ever needed to convince another team to implement a feature for you? Charisma helps greatly with that.
      - 9y ago
watwut 9y ago
Majority of people in tech are not autistic stereotype. The actually autistic were definitely not among the best I have worked with.
- namenotrequired 9y ago
  Did you ask everyone you worked with if they were autistic, or is this based on gut feeling?
  - watwut 9y ago
    They did not displayed syptomps. They were able to to correctly guess other peoples emotions or imagine themselves in their situation. They did not had single minded obsession nor routines that must happen. You could negotiate with them easily. They were, otherwise said, normal. Of course I might have missed some very mild case or something. And of course opposite, determining whether someone who kind of have some symptoms would be harder for non profesional. There were some where I suspect that and it did impacted work. Nevertheless, majority of people were normal, well adjusted with ordinary social lives and ordinary undrstanding of humans. That includes assholes I met - when your jerkiness is limited to those under you and you are charismatic treasure to bosses, you not autistic.
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      >They did not displayed syptomps. They were able to to correctly guess other peoples emotions or imagine themselves in their situation. They did not had single minded obsession nor routines that must happen. You could negotiate with them easily. They were, otherwise said, normal. High-functioning people with ASD invest enormous cognitive resources in passing for "normal". They memorise facial expressions and learn to decode them like hieroglyphics. They reverse-engineer social behaviour, learning to imitate normal behaviour and interpret the behaviour of others. They hide their stereotypies and preoccupations behind an affected facade. The fact that someone looks "normal" doesn't mean that they don't have ASD, it may mean that they're managing their condition effectively in a hostile environment.
    - 9y ago
namenotrequired 9y ago
The Wikipedia article on Asperger's doesn't mention hypersensitivity to touch, but this research suggests that a link does exist: http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2006_Blakemore_Tactile_sensitivity.pdf http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2006_Blakemore_T...
slowwriter 9y ago
Became curious and took the Autism Spectrum Quotient test and got a score of 35. Huh, who gives
sanxiyn 9y ago
> The technology industry is one of the most Aspie-friendly places that there is. Amen. I think this is something we should be proud of.
fouc 9y ago
Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  Machines, at least within the individual program, is a set of orderly instructions. Human society is anything but.
- danieltillett 9y ago
  I don't lose empathy, but I lose the ability to understand or speak English. If someone interrupts me when I am in deep in the groove I can tell someone is talking to me, but I can't understand what they are saying and I can't reply. It takes me around 5 to 10 seconds to context switch back into English. Amusingly my wife assumes that I am deliberately ignoring her when she interrupts me and storms off in a huff half the time. My staff and students have just learnt that you have to say my name and wait a bit before speaking.
  - fouc 9y ago
    Almost sounds like the neurons dedicated for auditory processing have been temporarily allocated towards the visual/logical tasks, hence the delay in switching back ;)
    - danieltillett 9y ago
      Yes that is my hypothesis as well. I have always been able to effectively shutdown my auditory processing when I am concentrating intensely on something (I was notorious in my family for having to be yelled at to get my attention when reading).
  - internetman55 9y ago
    Well, the truth is that you are ignoring her, right? You're focusing on whatever you're working on instead of maintaining the ability to even communicate with her. I had a job where I seemed to be evaluated primarily based on how I talked in meetings. After realizing this, I cut back on the effort I was willing to put into development, cause it would impair my ability to discuss stuff there. Unfortunately some management got quite mad cause I wasn't able to pump stuff out like before. Inside I was just like "you're the one setting the incentives here bruh" lol. I had much better quality of life when I was able to defend myself in meetings so I just stopped working hard.
auvrw 9y ago
from the article > I had also heard something years earlier about autistic people having issues with certain types of clothing similar to my own. similar in what way? from https://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2017/06/05/autism-and-resistance-change-winter-summer-clothes https://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2017/06/05/autism-and-resi... > We know that many people on the autism spectrum prefer relatively snug-fitting clothing that covers their arms and legs. ...i did not know that. however, i did know that incredibly fashionable people prefer relatively snug-fitting clothing that covers their arms and legs, thank you.
spodek 9y ago
> the third factor, Gideon said, was the empathy gap, where we tend to be more receptive to women’s pain than men’s. When women talk about being made to feel uncomfortable at work, or being sexually harassed, we feel empathy and want to punish the wrong-doers. But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men as a homogenous category, seeing all men as inheritors of privilege and all men as possessing the masculine traits that foster toughness and resilience. We have a habit of ignoring those who don’t, and when they do talk about their vulnerability, we are inclined to ignore, or ridicule them for it. The book The Myth of Male Power https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448 https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/042... explores and describes this factor and many of its ramifications, which are huge and tragic.
- vkou 9y ago
  This is one very obvious critique of the patriarchy, that is also advanced by feminism. Traditional, toxic masculinity does not recognize 'non-manly' roles for men, their emotional and intellectual needs, etc. It does not, however, follow, that it does not repress women. "But not all mens!" is true, but is also a bit of a red herring. Most members of both genders suffer it to their detriment.
  - malvosenior 9y ago
    “Non-manly” men suffer just as much, if not more at the hands of women. “Toxic masculinity” is the red herring here.
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    If the "patriarchy" is perpetrated by both men and women and negatively affects both men and women, maybe "patriarchy" is a bit of a misnomer?
    - WalterSear 9y ago
      Not if you are attempting to co-opt the situation.
jancsika 9y ago
> But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men as a homogenous category, seeing all men as inheritors of privilege and all men as possessing the masculine traits that foster toughness and resilience. Back in reality, the stereotypes of male nerds/geeks are: * not interested in activities that leverage masculine traits, like sports * not interested in the "rough" and often physically abusive hazing activities that go along with sports * publicly ridiculed for being socially inept, having a hard time interacting with members of the opposite sex, not grooming in the typical way "tough and resilient" males do Like any stereotypes those are often wrong. Nevertheless they come with enormous empathy-- most humans I know don't condone adolescents getting choked by bullies and will get sad when you tell them stories about it. Furthermore-- and I don't think I'm alone in this-- my own empathy gap between my stereotype of male "geeks" and male "techbros" couldn't be any wider. I thought people only referred to each other as ${topic}bros to be ironic, the joke being that anyone who would do that seriously is worthy of derision.
- Joeboy 9y ago
  In the wider world, the stereotype of male geeks seems to be that having endured all the above we're seeking revenge on society (and especially women) for the wrongs they have inflicted on us. Admittedly in my actual life I don't perceive my actual self to be judged harshly by actual people, but in the abstract I get the strong impression that people like me are pretty awful. Edit: https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=tech+industry+men https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=tech+industry+men . You might get different results but for me the first "positive-looking" story is on page 4 - "The Fittest Guys in Tech - These 10 men break the tech-guy stereotype".
  - greenrd 9y ago
    I guess it's an incentives thing. How much pushback do journalists ever get in their lives for writing lazy, uninformed and inaccurate articles like that? I'd guess jack squat, because we probably all think we have better things to do with our time than write letters of complaint to the editor. And we're probably right to think so.
j9461701 9y ago
>Gideon tells me that in his experience there are many autistic traits that don’t fit at all with our cultural conception of masculinity. Hypersensitivity to sensory stimulation is one of them, as is the tendency for those with autism to develop anxiety and depression—conditions that in the general population are higher in women than in men—the predilection of autistic people to prefer consistency and predictability also contrasts with the masculine trait of risk-taking. This is unsurprising, considering autistic males tend to display slightly feminized neurological structure and behavioral traits compared to control males. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/201/2/116.full http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/201/2/116.full http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(14)00725-4/pdf http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(14)00725-4/pdf Likely relatedly, the incidence of gender coherence issues (up to full gender dysphoria) are over 7 times more prevalent in the autistic community than the general population. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-...
- angel_j 9y ago
  control males are the worst males
katzgrau 9y ago
From one of the comments (author, Nathan Spears): > People with Asperger’s can navigate social situations remarkably well after they learn “the rules” of social interaction. That's my experience. I too, was socially awkward kid who taught himself basic programming by reading computer manuals around the age of 10. I constantly got picked on though out elementary and middle school. In high school it got a little better because I started to imitate social behavior and personal style that I picked up in other (cooler) people, mainly as a survival strategy. Spend more than 5 minutes talking to me though, and you'd be looking for a way to mosey out of the conversation. I went into software development where I felt that I'd truly found my breed. Then I started a software (product) company where suddenly I had to attract customers and pitch them my product in demos. I will say this: forcing myself to learn sales was monumental both professionally and socially. I am now pretty smooth in nearly any social interaction and even when things don't go perfectly, I keep a general "fuck it" attitude in my back pocket (which is quite handy for avoiding that paralyzing over-analysis following a misstep). The point is this: if you think you're somewhere on the subclinical spectrum, don't just give yourself that label and wait for the world to come around to you, or avoid doing the things that you don't think you're suited for. Do things that make you uncomfortable. Grow and improve on every front. As an aspie, you're probably pretty damned good at actively learning the traits that seem to come naturally for other people.
- klipt 9y ago
  > As an aspie, you're probably pretty damned good at actively learning the traits that seem to come naturally for other people. Makes me wonder how much of "neuro-diversity" is actually just "neuro-plasticity". Maybe many aspies are actually just "neuro-typicals" who were bullied and lost faith in social interactions, and thus spent much of their early life on geeky interests instead, developing better technical skills but neglecting social skills. But as they get older many realize that social skills are important and pick them up anyway, just a little later than most.
  - digi_owl 9y ago
    Not likely. Aspergers is not about a disinterest in social interaction, it is a "blindness" to the unspoken "rules" of social interaction. Most kids will given just a bit of time pick up the indications in body language etc that means one has hogged the ball and should pass it around. And aspie will not, at least not in the instinctual way that most humans do.
walshemj 9y ago
Using a "car company" Like tesla as an example of the tech industry's misogamy is just fracking stupid - does the Atlantic even have an "industrial correspondent" Teslas a car company and the sexism in those sort of blue collar traditional company's is way more prevalent To use a slightly more tech example in telecos when was the last time you saw a female lineman (engineer in UK terms)
- walshemj 9y ago
  To follow up my point using an example from a totally separate blue collar industry with massive gender imbalances and much more overt sexual harassment and discrimination allows hr in the tech industry to discredit the journalists and article in question.
- jfk13 9y ago
  Anecdote, not data: Offhand, I can recall three separate times when I've had to have the telco send an engineer out to my house (at three different properties). One out of three was female.
aperrien 9y ago
> What we do know, however, is that while girls and women do meet the diagnosis for >autism spectrum disorder, the ratio between men and women sits somewhere between 5:1 to >3:1. We also know that men and women’s interests diverge in ways that are congruent with >Baron-Cohen’s systematising- empathising spectrum. Women overwhelmingly prefer working >with people, and have “artistic” and “social” vocational interests, and men >overwhelmingly prefer working with things and have “investigative,” “enterprising,” >“realistic,” and “conventional,” interests. I feel, after having worked with kids (boys and girls) with Asperger's, that we as a society have historically missed (or dismissed) the signs of Asperger's in girls, and have done them a disservice in life by not helping them with those challenges. This book opened my eyes to some of the specific problems that girls (particularly young ones) face: https://www.amazon.com/Aspergirls-Empowering-Females-Asperger-Syndrome-ebook/dp/B00GDJQNO4/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me= https://www.amazon.com/Aspergirls-Empowering-Females-Asperge... I realize that only recently have we begun treating boys who are on the spectrum, and I'm happy about that, but we need to do better with girls and young women as well.
- bap 9y ago
  In case you're interested and aren't already aware: UC Davis seems to be investing a bit in ASD research. This one, for instance, focuses on girls: http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/research/gain/index.html http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/research/gain/ind... ..and there are a few others. Most focus on the intersection of Children and Autism in some form or another. Alternatively SciAm ran an article a while back around just this issue of how and why we're "missing it" when it comes to recognizing ASD early (or at all) for girls. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/autism-it-s-different-in-girls/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/autism-it-s-diffe...

381 points by Radim 9y ago

His childhood mirrors my own, although academic success is inverted. I wonder if there is some trait which transfixed us for life, I am certain that the interviewee (Gideon) and I are not alone. It also beggars the question. Although very non-PC. That were I a girl I would not be dissuaded from this course. I know this because there was literally zero support from anyone regarding computing as a hobby or profession. In fact the opposite, they actively fought against it. Again. I think I'm very unalone in this regard.

watwut 9y ago
I have seen multiple women express surprise that I am programmer because "but you are women" or "I did not knew women can do that". I live in a bit behind the times place, obviously. Conversely, I have seen parents shocked that someone would put boy on art lesson. Is that part of your answer? Nevertheless, among my friends, parents agains boy doing computing were practically nonexistent. Computer was usually in boy room and boys were heavily praised for every tiny thing they knew and expected to deal. Their sisters largely aware that it is for boys and not expected of anything (not in my familly I found out only much later). Note that my parents seen spending much time with computer as waste of time and were systematically attempting to send me out - but they did not seen it boyish nor seen me fundamentally incapable to master it. I had reasonable access to computer and to some books that were in household.
- b6 9y ago
  > Computer was usually in boy room and boys were heavily praised for every tiny thing they knew and expected to deal. Their sisters largely aware that it is for boys Among my friends, it was the opposite. I have two close male friends who, like me, were obsessed with computers for at least 20 years. In both cases, their parents bought computers for their sisters, not them. Their parents encouraged their sisters to get into computers, but it was the guys who became obsessed with computers and programming, having never particularly been encouraged to do so.
- dijit 9y ago
  > Computer was usually in boy room and boys were heavily praised for every tiny thing they knew and expected to deal. Their sisters largely aware that it is for boys Thats notable. I can see the opposite is true among my friends who are younger, the girls got laptops because they need to socialise (and privately). Boys use the family computer placed in a communal area for fear they were going to watch porn I suppose. But I'm older and when I was young the Internet was not entirely common. Computers were not ubiquitous and those who worked with them were considered sub-human. I can understand a parent not wanting their child to be a "loser" and I believe it cuts over gendered lines.
  - watwut 9y ago
    I count myself lucky to never having to deal with that "who uses computer is subhuman" thing. It was more of admired, because it implied that you have money. But interesting thing is, most of the time people back then speent on irc and muds. I frankly find this setup quite unfair too, but don't see it around me being repeated. Not just because of boy access to private chat, but because of assumption parents openly makes about him. "You would mostly watched porn" is terrible message to the kid. I am also trying to teach my kids that computers are for more then just socializing and porn and show them productive things and puzzlers and such.
ioult 9y ago
> It also beggars the question. Although very non-PC. That were I a girl I would not be dissuaded from this course. I know this because there was literally zero support from anyone regarding computing as a hobby or profession. In fact the opposite, they actively fought against it. That's not "non-PC" on Hacker News. A lot of people here belive that there are few to no legitimate reasons for women to not be programmers and that they just don't want to. What isn't PC on Hacker News is the idea that it isn't society who is against women as programmers, but the environment built by "us". That maybe it isn't this environment that is more accepting than all others, but that "we" just fit in.
- greenrd 9y ago
  > What isn't PC on Hacker News is the idea that it isn't society who is against women as programmers, but the environment built by "us". That maybe it isn't this environment that is more accepting than all others, but that "we" just fit in. I don't find your comment un-PC, because I fail to understand it. What are you trying to say?
  - orangea 9y ago
    They are saying that people on Hacker News like to believe that the reason for the lack of gender diversity in technology culture is not due to a problem with technology culture, but rather due to a problem in other parts of society (gender norms). People on Hacker News think this because they feel safe and accommodated by technology culture and assume that it must be the same for other women.
    - greenrd 9y ago
      Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. So what specifically do we need to do in tech? This is all very vague generalities at this point.
      - ioult 9y ago
        > Oh, so just garden variety tech feminism then. Dismissing opnions you disagree with as inconsequential or belonging to some agenda is essentially the core of political correctness. (At least if with the definition of "things hard to talk about", rather than which words to use). > So what specifically do we need to do in tech? What to do isn't the problem. Not only can you find far better writing on the subject in the wild, but there are people are already doing it. But since you are asking I will give you an example. Hacker culture puts a large, disproportionately so even, emphasis on hobbyism. Stories like the one in the article, getting started when you were young and not doing much else are meriting. For a women to have be able have the same experience they would have to engage in a largely male dominated culture at an age (as in seniority) when many boys nor girls aren't particularly sociable with people of the opposite sex and when fitting in is especially important. So when we value things in computer culture other than things with technical merit and instead put merit in peoples backgrounds or the tools they use we do so with a culture that largely isn't accessible to women. Maybe that is vague to you, but not everything is clear cut. As a said, people doing things change this. They give girls opportunities to get excited by technology in their own way. They give women from other fields a chance to get acclimated at tech companies on their own terms. They try to emphasis the things you can do with technology instead of the culture etc.

tzahola 9y ago

The author is walking on thin ice by suggesting that sexual dimorphism has a significant effect on cognitive abilities. For her own safety, I hope she doesn’t live in San Francisco.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
Hence the pseudonym and the quote saying "If he didn’t get the message that the women in science movement wasn’t interested in dialogue and is glad to destroy anyone who questioned it then he must be [on the spectrum]. The only reason why it was him rather than me winding up that [kind of] situation is that I realized what was happening well enough to keep my mouth shut at work and to also turn down an offer from Google, since I knew that they [are] one of the worst offenders, if not the worst."
nukeop 9y ago
You think it doesn't?
- domlebo70 9y ago
  They are suggesting that SF has a reactionary view to that notion.
worldsayshi 9y ago
Hmm, isn't it more about a tendency of where interest is directed rather than cognitive ability? Girls do better than boys in school (1). Which is arguably also about motivation rather than ability. It seems that they are systematically discouraged to go towards a math/logic path though (2). It's complicated. The truth seems to be more nuanced than what we have ever been able to fit into a single narrative. (1) - https://www.education.com/reference/article/gender-academic-achievement/ https://www.education.com/reference/article/gender-academic-... (2) - https://www.google.se/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2015/mar/05/girls-lack-self-confidence-maths-science-oecd-school-engineering https://www.google.se/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/20...

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

> He said that society increasingly sees groups instead of individuals, to the extent that group rights may supersede individual rights in all sorts of contexts, including politicised work environments. Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is true of men. Because women are now a victimised class, men are increasingly seen as victimisers, irrespective of their individual attributes or actions. > The second factor, he thought, was an attachment to an outdated, blank slate view of human nature. He says that many people still insist on seeing the human brain as predominantly moulded by culture, despite scientific evidence to the contrary. There tends to be a hesitancy towards attributing any differences between people to any cause that is biological in origin. This hesitancy has been around for decades, and appears like it will not be alleviated anytime soon. I agree with the first paragraph here, but not the second. I really believe that culture plays more of a part than most people think. Cultural differences would explain the higher wages among Asian Americans and Jews, this despite the historic racism that both of those groups have experienced. Both groups are minorities, yet on average still exceed in our society more than others.

fyi1183 9y ago
To play devils advocate, the success of Asian Americans and Jews could also be explained by genetics. My own biases as well as basic knowledge of the respective cultures makes me fairly certain that it's culture in both cases rather than genetics, though.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  The issue with claiming that genetics causes the success of certain races is that there is greater genetic variation within races than between them, and that there has been no discovered correlation between certain genetic traits and success. Plus that kind of thinking can lead to racist discrimination, which isn't good.
  - namenotrequired 9y ago

Niksko 9y ago

This article is going to rub lots of people the wrong way, I suspect, but it's level headed, well reasoned and well written. Although I ultimately disagree with some of the conclusions drawn at the end, (particularly: > Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. I think labeling or delineating women as 'vulnerable or marginalised' and ignoring their unique qualities and idiosyncrasies is robbing Peter to pay Paul. Acknowledging that women are 'vulnerable or marginalised' shouldn't remove their individuality, you can easily have both, but that's beside my point here) I legitimately didn't realise what the tone or conclusion of the article were going to be when I first started reasoning, because it does a good job of presenting scientific research without any inherent judgements. The other thing this article achieves that the cited manifesto failed to achieve was not to necessarily provide judgement, criticism or suggestions around 'what should be done about problem xyz'. It presents some facts, presents some opinions, and then (thankfully) doesn't decide to rip the hard work of well intentioned people to shreds. And for that, I think this should be commended.

rndgermandude 9y ago
Not particular to the Google stuff, but more of a general observation: I am very much in favor of ripping the hard work of well-intentioned people to sheds, if it deserved to be ripped to shreds, like e.g. the fine "make proper God-fearing Christians of all those dark-skinned heathens" (the missionaries were/still are quite often well-intentioned and hard-working). Now, some of the stuff that is done, well-intentioned, in the tech industry to promote diversity and/or make the workplace a friendlier space for women and other groups may end up achieving opposite results, driving co-workers apart and making the work environment more toxic for everybody. Therefore, we must be able to discuss and criticize any and all such programs, and therefore the hard work somebody put into them, and stop such programs if we determine a detrimental outcome. Like in science: you prod and poke and even try to shred-rip a theory (somebody put a lot of effort into), and if that theory withstands it probably is solid and sound.
- Niksko 9y ago

seanhandley 9y ago

> Because contemporary moral codes delineate women as vulnerable or marginalised, we stop seeing them as individuals with unique talents and idiosyncrasies, but as representatives of a victimised class. The reverse is true of men. Because women are now a victimised class, men are increasingly seen as victimisers, irrespective of their individual attributes or actions. I cannot agree with this more. Very, very well observed and phrased.

nukeop 9y ago
I think these kinds of antagonisms are central to American society. Other parts of the world often find them alien and incomprehensible.
- swombat 9y ago
  Not true - the Karpman drama triangle (victim-aggressor-rescuer) is a fundamentally human way of seeing the world (however dysfunctional and unhelpful) and so it is present all around the world, not just in the US. I would agree that based on what I read about it, the US seems to be particularly in the grip of this perspective though. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle
  - pgeorgi 9y ago
    The question is if other societies also adopt the triangle for classes of people in the way the American society does. Not all countries have "affirmative action" laws, which essentially codify victimhood large scale - and also beg the question in which other bucket everybody else belongs. Add an intuitive and statist interpretation of the drama triangle (instead of acknowledging that the same persons can be in different roles at any given time) and you have a society of people rushing to demonstrate that they're not the aggressor, either by ending up protected ("victim") or protecting ("rescuer").
    - tajen 9y ago
      I have extensively studied the statistics about neoteny (=compassion gap) in USA vs Europe and they are very close to each other. If you’re talking about the position of women in the Taliban culture, this is a very interesting talk, despite the title: https://youtu.be/5eqYEVYZgdo https://youtu.be/5eqYEVYZgdo

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

infinity0 9y ago

I always felt that the fact that the tech industry is so welcome to techies and people with "aspie"-type personalities, indicates that in fact we as an industry have more empathy than other industries (or social groups) that shun these types of people (myself included) for what I believe are very superficial reasons. So, I think the title of the article is extremely biased and draws the wrong conclusions from the writer's own research.

probably_wrong 9y ago
I'll have to disagree with your conclusion. If a group is composed mostly of members of a shunned social group, do they have more empathy than others just because they are friendlier to members of that specific shunned social group? I am immensely grateful for the nerd-friendliness of the tech industry, as I spent my teen years being mocked for being a nerd. But if the tech industry has a higher-than-average number of members who are slightly anti-social, is it really surprising when people accuse this group of having little empathy to members of other social groups? It is entirely possible for the tech industry to be nerd-friendly and women-hostile at the same time. I'm not saying it is the case, but it could be. And while I've been vocal against the idea of "hide the nerds so girls won't be scared of joining CS programs", I think it's worth considering whether we are being welcoming enough.
- infinity0 9y ago
  I never said techies have "more empathy". I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of media attack-pieces blasting techies for having "less empathy", something that is entirely at odds with my own experience. edit: apparently I did say that. It was in reaction to an inflammatory title I feel is deeply wrong. People, including the writers of articles like "techies aren't empathetic", like to talk about virtues like "empathy" and apply them positively or negatively to groups they feel part of / outside of. Much of the time, it has nothing to do with the actual virtue, but with this tribalistic instinct of being part of or outside of different groups. Pretending the discussion is about "empathy" is really doing a disservice to analysis of social groups. Some less-systematic people are annoyed that more-systematic people do better within the tech industry, which in today's world is becoming more and more important for economic success. So they want to explain this away as "more-systematic people are less empathetic". What is actually the case, is "more-systematic people are less empathetic to less-systematic behaviour". But we're plenty-empathetic to people that "get us". And in the other direction, people that this author assumes are "more empathetic" are actually really really extremely non-empathetic to more-systematic people. edit: assumed the article was another "techies are less empathetic" hit-job, but turns out it is making a different point from all the rest

Semkas 9y ago

I have aspergers, and empathize with the feeling that society doesn't much care about our struggle (or, for that matter, knows how to deal with anyone who isn't neurotypical). One thing I have come to realize though (and I know this will be controversial on here) is that SV and tech in general is this special place where people with limited social skills can go to work for really high salaries to create things of often dubious societal value. I remember reading in a similar article that many "classical-liberal" types think that the wage-gap between man and woman may be caused by the fact that woman are naturally less competitive. Meaning that they are less careerist. This is of course a failure of meritocracy, in the same way that charisma often trumps skill at a job (which is the big problem for anti social men). Here is my point: we have these different failures of meritocracy affecting different people, but for people (mostly men) with aspergers there is this special, well paying, industry. So I don't know that we have it that bad, or that efforts to attract more woman (even if you consider the given reasons to be bogus) are really misguided.

hateduser2 9y ago
The act that you don’t see the value in charisma says nothin about whether or not it should trump productivity. I think it’s highly reasonable that it would and maybe obvious that it should.
- Semkas 9y ago
  I see the value in charisma, but it seems uncontroversial to me that what most people consider "fair" is hiring people for their skill at a job, not their ability to make the interviewer like them.
  - chrisbroadfoot 9y ago
    Charisma is a valuable skill as a software engineer. Have you ever needed to convince another team to implement a feature for you? Charisma helps greatly with that.
    - 9y ago

watwut 9y ago

Majority of people in tech are not autistic stereotype. The actually autistic were definitely not among the best I have worked with.

namenotrequired 9y ago
Did you ask everyone you worked with if they were autistic, or is this based on gut feeling?
- watwut 9y ago
  They did not displayed syptomps. They were able to to correctly guess other peoples emotions or imagine themselves in their situation. They did not had single minded obsession nor routines that must happen. You could negotiate with them easily. They were, otherwise said, normal. Of course I might have missed some very mild case or something. And of course opposite, determining whether someone who kind of have some symptoms would be harder for non profesional. There were some where I suspect that and it did impacted work. Nevertheless, majority of people were normal, well adjusted with ordinary social lives and ordinary undrstanding of humans. That includes assholes I met - when your jerkiness is limited to those under you and you are charismatic treasure to bosses, you not autistic.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    >They did not displayed syptomps. They were able to to correctly guess other peoples emotions or imagine themselves in their situation. They did not had single minded obsession nor routines that must happen. You could negotiate with them easily. They were, otherwise said, normal. High-functioning people with ASD invest enormous cognitive resources in passing for "normal". They memorise facial expressions and learn to decode them like hieroglyphics. They reverse-engineer social behaviour, learning to imitate normal behaviour and interpret the behaviour of others. They hide their stereotypies and preoccupations behind an affected facade. The fact that someone looks "normal" doesn't mean that they don't have ASD, it may mean that they're managing their condition effectively in a hostile environment.
  - 9y ago

namenotrequired 9y ago

The Wikipedia article on Asperger's doesn't mention hypersensitivity to touch, but this research suggests that a link does exist: http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2006_Blakemore_Tactile_sensitivity.pdf http://docs.autismresearchcentre.com/papers/2006_Blakemore_T...

slowwriter 9y ago

Became curious and took the Autism Spectrum Quotient test and got a score of 35. Huh, who gives

sanxiyn 9y ago

> The technology industry is one of the most Aspie-friendly places that there is. Amen. I think this is something we should be proud of.

fouc 9y ago

Does anyone feel anti-social after a full day of programming? I always suspected that programming can temporarily reduce empathy at the end of the day. I don't have asperger's but I often feel a lot closer to that after a really intense day of speaking a machine's language.

digi_owl 9y ago
Machines, at least within the individual program, is a set of orderly instructions. Human society is anything but.
danieltillett 9y ago
I don't lose empathy, but I lose the ability to understand or speak English. If someone interrupts me when I am in deep in the groove I can tell someone is talking to me, but I can't understand what they are saying and I can't reply. It takes me around 5 to 10 seconds to context switch back into English. Amusingly my wife assumes that I am deliberately ignoring her when she interrupts me and storms off in a huff half the time. My staff and students have just learnt that you have to say my name and wait a bit before speaking.
- fouc 9y ago
  Almost sounds like the neurons dedicated for auditory processing have been temporarily allocated towards the visual/logical tasks, hence the delay in switching back ;)
  - danieltillett 9y ago
    Yes that is my hypothesis as well. I have always been able to effectively shutdown my auditory processing when I am concentrating intensely on something (I was notorious in my family for having to be yelled at to get my attention when reading).
- internetman55 9y ago
  Well, the truth is that you are ignoring her, right? You're focusing on whatever you're working on instead of maintaining the ability to even communicate with her. I had a job where I seemed to be evaluated primarily based on how I talked in meetings. After realizing this, I cut back on the effort I was willing to put into development, cause it would impair my ability to discuss stuff there. Unfortunately some management got quite mad cause I wasn't able to pump stuff out like before. Inside I was just like "you're the one setting the incentives here bruh" lol. I had much better quality of life when I was able to defend myself in meetings so I just stopped working hard.

auvrw 9y ago

from the article > I had also heard something years earlier about autistic people having issues with certain types of clothing similar to my own. similar in what way? from https://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2017/06/05/autism-and-resistance-change-winter-summer-clothes https://www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2017/06/05/autism-and-resi... > We know that many people on the autism spectrum prefer relatively snug-fitting clothing that covers their arms and legs. ...i did not know that. however, i did know that incredibly fashionable people prefer relatively snug-fitting clothing that covers their arms and legs, thank you.

spodek 9y ago

> the third factor, Gideon said, was the empathy gap, where we tend to be more receptive to women’s pain than men’s. When women talk about being made to feel uncomfortable at work, or being sexually harassed, we feel empathy and want to punish the wrong-doers. But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men as a homogenous category, seeing all men as inheritors of privilege and all men as possessing the masculine traits that foster toughness and resilience. We have a habit of ignoring those who don’t, and when they do talk about their vulnerability, we are inclined to ignore, or ridicule them for it. The book The Myth of Male Power https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/0425181448 https://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell/dp/042... explores and describes this factor and many of its ramifications, which are huge and tragic.

vkou 9y ago
This is one very obvious critique of the patriarchy, that is also advanced by feminism. Traditional, toxic masculinity does not recognize 'non-manly' roles for men, their emotional and intellectual needs, etc. It does not, however, follow, that it does not repress women. "But not all mens!" is true, but is also a bit of a red herring. Most members of both genders suffer it to their detriment.
- malvosenior 9y ago
  “Non-manly” men suffer just as much, if not more at the hands of women. “Toxic masculinity” is the red herring here.
- mpweiher 9y ago
  If the "patriarchy" is perpetrated by both men and women and negatively affects both men and women, maybe "patriarchy" is a bit of a misnomer?
  - WalterSear 9y ago
    Not if you are attempting to co-opt the situation.

jancsika 9y ago

> But we don’t have the same reaction for “geeks,” or “techbros”. Because our understanding of neurodiversity is painfully lacking, our culture tends to view men as a homogenous category, seeing all men as inheritors of privilege and all men as possessing the masculine traits that foster toughness and resilience. Back in reality, the stereotypes of male nerds/geeks are: * not interested in activities that leverage masculine traits, like sports * not interested in the "rough" and often physically abusive hazing activities that go along with sports * publicly ridiculed for being socially inept, having a hard time interacting with members of the opposite sex, not grooming in the typical way "tough and resilient" males do Like any stereotypes those are often wrong. Nevertheless they come with enormous empathy-- most humans I know don't condone adolescents getting choked by bullies and will get sad when you tell them stories about it. Furthermore-- and I don't think I'm alone in this-- my own empathy gap between my stereotype of male "geeks" and male "techbros" couldn't be any wider. I thought people only referred to each other as ${topic}bros to be ironic, the joke being that anyone who would do that seriously is worthy of derision.

Joeboy 9y ago
In the wider world, the stereotype of male geeks seems to be that having endured all the above we're seeking revenge on society (and especially women) for the wrongs they have inflicted on us. Admittedly in my actual life I don't perceive my actual self to be judged harshly by actual people, but in the abstract I get the strong impression that people like me are pretty awful. Edit: https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=tech+industry+men https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=tech+industry+men . You might get different results but for me the first "positive-looking" story is on page 4 - "The Fittest Guys in Tech - These 10 men break the tech-guy stereotype".
- greenrd 9y ago
  I guess it's an incentives thing. How much pushback do journalists ever get in their lives for writing lazy, uninformed and inaccurate articles like that? I'd guess jack squat, because we probably all think we have better things to do with our time than write letters of complaint to the editor. And we're probably right to think so.

j9461701 9y ago

>Gideon tells me that in his experience there are many autistic traits that don’t fit at all with our cultural conception of masculinity. Hypersensitivity to sensory stimulation is one of them, as is the tendency for those with autism to develop anxiety and depression—conditions that in the general population are higher in women than in men—the predilection of autistic people to prefer consistency and predictability also contrasts with the masculine trait of risk-taking. This is unsurprising, considering autistic males tend to display slightly feminized neurological structure and behavioral traits compared to control males. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/201/2/116.full http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/201/2/116.full http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(14)00725-4/pdf http://www.jaacap.com/article/S0890-8567(14)00725-4/pdf Likely relatedly, the incidence of gender coherence issues (up to full gender dysphoria) are over 7 times more prevalent in the autistic community than the general population. https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-between-autism-and-trans-identity/507509/ https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/11/the-link-...

angel_j 9y ago
control males are the worst males

katzgrau 9y ago

From one of the comments (author, Nathan Spears): > People with Asperger’s can navigate social situations remarkably well after they learn “the rules” of social interaction. That's my experience. I too, was socially awkward kid who taught himself basic programming by reading computer manuals around the age of 10. I constantly got picked on though out elementary and middle school. In high school it got a little better because I started to imitate social behavior and personal style that I picked up in other (cooler) people, mainly as a survival strategy. Spend more than 5 minutes talking to me though, and you'd be looking for a way to mosey out of the conversation. I went into software development where I felt that I'd truly found my breed. Then I started a software (product) company where suddenly I had to attract customers and pitch them my product in demos. I will say this: forcing myself to learn sales was monumental both professionally and socially. I am now pretty smooth in nearly any social interaction and even when things don't go perfectly, I keep a general "fuck it" attitude in my back pocket (which is quite handy for avoiding that paralyzing over-analysis following a misstep). The point is this: if you think you're somewhere on the subclinical spectrum, don't just give yourself that label and wait for the world to come around to you, or avoid doing the things that you don't think you're suited for. Do things that make you uncomfortable. Grow and improve on every front. As an aspie, you're probably pretty damned good at actively learning the traits that seem to come naturally for other people.

klipt 9y ago
> As an aspie, you're probably pretty damned good at actively learning the traits that seem to come naturally for other people. Makes me wonder how much of "neuro-diversity" is actually just "neuro-plasticity". Maybe many aspies are actually just "neuro-typicals" who were bullied and lost faith in social interactions, and thus spent much of their early life on geeky interests instead, developing better technical skills but neglecting social skills. But as they get older many realize that social skills are important and pick them up anyway, just a little later than most.
- digi_owl 9y ago
  Not likely. Aspergers is not about a disinterest in social interaction, it is a "blindness" to the unspoken "rules" of social interaction. Most kids will given just a bit of time pick up the indications in body language etc that means one has hogged the ball and should pass it around. And aspie will not, at least not in the instinctual way that most humans do.

walshemj 9y ago

Using a "car company" Like tesla as an example of the tech industry's misogamy is just fracking stupid - does the Atlantic even have an "industrial correspondent" Teslas a car company and the sexism in those sort of blue collar traditional company's is way more prevalent To use a slightly more tech example in telecos when was the last time you saw a female lineman (engineer in UK terms)

walshemj 9y ago
To follow up my point using an example from a totally separate blue collar industry with massive gender imbalances and much more overt sexual harassment and discrimination allows hr in the tech industry to discredit the journalists and article in question.
jfk13 9y ago
Anecdote, not data: Offhand, I can recall three separate times when I've had to have the telco send an engineer out to my house (at three different properties). One out of three was female.

aperrien 9y ago

> What we do know, however, is that while girls and women do meet the diagnosis for >autism spectrum disorder, the ratio between men and women sits somewhere between 5:1 to >3:1. We also know that men and women’s interests diverge in ways that are congruent with >Baron-Cohen’s systematising- empathising spectrum. Women overwhelmingly prefer working >with people, and have “artistic” and “social” vocational interests, and men >overwhelmingly prefer working with things and have “investigative,” “enterprising,” >“realistic,” and “conventional,” interests. I feel, after having worked with kids (boys and girls) with Asperger's, that we as a society have historically missed (or dismissed) the signs of Asperger's in girls, and have done them a disservice in life by not helping them with those challenges. This book opened my eyes to some of the specific problems that girls (particularly young ones) face: https://www.amazon.com/Aspergirls-Empowering-Females-Asperger-Syndrome-ebook/dp/B00GDJQNO4/ref=mt_kindle?_encoding=UTF8&me= https://www.amazon.com/Aspergirls-Empowering-Females-Asperge... I realize that only recently have we begun treating boys who are on the spectrum, and I'm happy about that, but we need to do better with girls and young women as well.

bap 9y ago
In case you're interested and aren't already aware: UC Davis seems to be investing a bit in ASD research. This one, for instance, focuses on girls: http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/research/gain/index.html http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/mindinstitute/research/gain/ind... ..and there are a few others. Most focus on the intersection of Children and Autism in some form or another. Alternatively SciAm ran an article a while back around just this issue of how and why we're "missing it" when it comes to recognizing ASD early (or at all) for girls. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/autism-it-s-different-in-girls/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/autism-it-s-diffe...