5 ms·

Why do people feel this way about their salaries. Always seemed to me that in the grand tottal we will be better off if we did discuss our salaries publicly. I

by Viker 9y ago

Why do people feel this way about their salaries. Always seemed to me that in the grand tottal we will be better off if we did discuss our salaries publicly. I make around 60k usd in a Scandinavian startup as a programmer with experience. What is so big deal about it

mcherm 9y ago
There are two reasons. First: because it is socially unacceptable. In the US culture, talking about one's salary is taboo. It is rather as if someone were to post naked pictures. Sure, you are an enlightened person and you probably wouldn't hold it against them. Much. But you'd find it a bit weird. Americans try hard to hold to the illusion of a classless society and treating everyone equally, and hiding salary is an important way to do this. It also allows people to not feel cheated, if they don't realize that others are making more than they are. Secondly: because my company might not like it. US labor law actually REQUIRES that employees be permitted to discuss their salary with each other, which is why companies do not forbid discussing it, and to be clear: my company does NOT have any policy against discussing salary. But it is to the company's advantage to be a bit vague about salaries. Cynically one could say that this permits them to pay each individual the minimum they can get away with without having to deal with a sense that this is unfair. As a representative of my company, they would probably prefer that I talk about work conditions and company culture rather than specific numbers about the salary we pay.
Cthulhu_ 9y ago
I can think of a few reasons; probably the same why you shouldn't brag about being rich or winning the lottery. * Avoiding jealousy from people that might know the poster * Avoiding becoming a target for scammers or kidnappers Also why does HN not support basic formatting?
- doktrin 9y ago
  > Also why does HN not support basic formatting? I've always chalked it up to HN's unchanging, simple aesthetic and interface (or, "ain't broke, not fixing") You can block format with 4 spaces, but this isn't always ideal since it doesn't line wrap
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  > Also why does HN not support basic formatting? It does, for a suitable basic definition of “basic” (it supports italics and preformatted monospace code blocks). I think it's largely an aesthetic preference to focus on text content rather than distracting formatting that results in not supporting more. Aside from a decent formatting option for distinguishing block quotes, I don't really see any more formatting as being desirable, and even that is more to avoid people being tempted into using code blocks for blockquotes than because there aren't tolerable ways to present them without special formatting.
kasey_junk 9y ago
It’s a very common concern here in the US and I find it very strange. Lots and lots of people work in jobs where salary is either public or easily determined. Further discussing pay is one of the few bedrock employee protections we have here. Yet it’s a taboo subject. If I were a more suspicious person I’d chalk it up to a cabal of employers trying to suppress wages...
charlesdm 9y ago
The people making a lot above average (because they negotiated well) generally don't want to share this publicly, because others will realise they are then being underpaid. As an example: would you tell a colleague "on the same level" as you that you're making $300k, when he is making $50 or $100k? That's either 1) an excellent way to get fired, because now everyone wants $300k, or 2) an excellent way to piss off your colleagues. They will start looking for a new gig immediately.
- fnbr 9y ago
  It is technically illegal to fire you for discussing this, at least in the US. I know at Google there's supposedly a big internal salary sharing doc started by Erica Baker, and she wasn't fired for it (although her manager was supposedly quite unhappy).
  - noitsnot 9y ago
    People come and go based on technicalities at this company all the time. It's really easy.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    > It is technically illegal to fire you for discussing this, at least in the US. Funny, I know of American corporation which operates low cost center over here while paying 30-40% of American salaries and forbidding the employee from sharing its salary for 10 years (sic!) in the employment contract.
    - theorique 9y ago
      If "over here" is outside of the US, then it's in a different legal jurisdiction, and the laws are going to be different.
    - alanmessy 9y ago
      If in the US, it is illegal for them to have that in the employment contract and they could be sued for that. I'm not sure how it works if it's not operating in the US, but if it's a US company, might still apply. My company abides by all US laws because they're headquartered in US, but have offices worldwide. According to this law: https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act employees can talk about things that matter to them, salary being one of them. And the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) includes pay secrecy language in contracts as illegal, and even if you sign an NDA, it is still your right to talk about your salary. The consequences for violation aren't usually very serious, so companies aren't too worried about violating the law, unfortunately. They usually have to provide back pay to the employee and/or offer the employee their job back (if they were fired). Obama signed an executive order that increased penalties for companies contracting with the government: they can lose their contract. This law doesn't include contractors, ag workers, employees of federal, state, or local gvmt, or those employed by interstate rail and airline companies. It does cover you if you aren't in a union. Violations should be reported to the NLRB and they'll investigate it. Source: https://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/301989789/pay-secrecy-policies-at-work-often-illegal-and-misunderstood https://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/301989789/pay-secrecy-policie... and https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/ https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/
louisswiss 9y ago
As an (hypothetical) employer I now know that, ceteris paribus, I only need to offer you around 65k USD to come and work for me, even if I was prepared to offer you 90k USD. I agree though that we would, on average, be better off if all of us agreed to share salaries publicly.
- gokhan 9y ago
  If other employees of yours also publicly share what they earn, you won't be able to do that, as you noted. Besides, other employers will see that you under pay and offer him more and you'll need to compete on price or you will use talented employees and left with lemons.
  - louisswiss 9y ago
    It's not quite that easy though. Let's assume sharing salaries is common. I see that you make 60k USD and your colleagues are on 70k USD each. As another potential employer, do I assume you are undervalued or just perform worse than your colleagues making 10k USD more? We seem to be caught up in an uncomfortable hybrid world where salaries are sort of related to performance, but not really. If we just chose one way or another, that would sort out a lot of problems immediately.
    - Vinkekatten 9y ago
      I live in a country where income is public information. It´s not really a problem as far as I know - and at any rate it definitely benefits employees.
gambiting 9y ago
Well, for one, my contract explicitly prohibits me from disclosing my salary publicly - I am protected by law to discuss it with my colleagues, but (technically) I cannot post it online. I know in some countries(Sweden) salaries are literally a matter of public record, but that's not the case everywhere.
- switch007 9y ago
  Is "I earn between $61k and $63k" disclosing your salary?
doktrin 9y ago
> I make around 60k usd in a Scandinavian startup as a programmer with experience I'm still trying to wrap my head around why European developers earn significantly less than virtually all their American counterparts, even in high cost of living areas (like Scandinavia) I do understand you specified you work for a startup, but even at one of the many established regional consultancies dev salaries tend to cap out at around $90K IME. Is it the lack of lucrative VC funding, the prevailing sense of egalitarianism at all costs, the abundance of (comparatively) well paid middle managers, all of the above or something else entirely? edit : changed wording
- busterarm 9y ago
  It's not universal. My friend started off his career in Denmark making pretty standard US tech salaries. The tax rates are much higher there too.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    > It's not universal. My friend started off his career in Denmark making pretty standard US tech salaries. That's fair, and I'm aware there are always outliers. For added reference, starting tech salaries in Oslo, Norway are around $50k (cost of living comparable to Seattle or DC). Perhaps more importantly, there's much less upward potential - senior devs rarely earn 6 figures USD unless they're freelancing.
- rowyourboat 9y ago
  > why European developers appear to be content with earning significantly less than virtually all their American counterparts It's what the market pays. If I say I want $120k, I won't get a job.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    > If I say I want $120k, I won't get a job. I do actually know devs who make this much with ~5 years of experience, but they made the conscious decision to forego the large consultancies for smaller shops with less overhead. One observation I made in Scandinavia is that the billable rate for tech professionals (including designers) appears to be more or less static. Customers pay roughly the same hourly rate regardless of whether a dev / designer has 2 or 20 years experience, so the most consistent path to higher compensation is to drop layers of support / management (with freelance being the highest).

by Viker 9y ago

mcherm 9y ago

There are two reasons. First: because it is socially unacceptable. In the US culture, talking about one's salary is taboo. It is rather as if someone were to post naked pictures. Sure, you are an enlightened person and you probably wouldn't hold it against them. Much. But you'd find it a bit weird. Americans try hard to hold to the illusion of a classless society and treating everyone equally, and hiding salary is an important way to do this. It also allows people to not feel cheated, if they don't realize that others are making more than they are. Secondly: because my company might not like it. US labor law actually REQUIRES that employees be permitted to discuss their salary with each other, which is why companies do not forbid discussing it, and to be clear: my company does NOT have any policy against discussing salary. But it is to the company's advantage to be a bit vague about salaries. Cynically one could say that this permits them to pay each individual the minimum they can get away with without having to deal with a sense that this is unfair. As a representative of my company, they would probably prefer that I talk about work conditions and company culture rather than specific numbers about the salary we pay.

Cthulhu_ 9y ago

I can think of a few reasons; probably the same why you shouldn't brag about being rich or winning the lottery. * Avoiding jealousy from people that might know the poster * Avoiding becoming a target for scammers or kidnappers Also why does HN not support basic formatting?

doktrin 9y ago
> Also why does HN not support basic formatting? I've always chalked it up to HN's unchanging, simple aesthetic and interface (or, "ain't broke, not fixing") You can block format with 4 spaces, but this isn't always ideal since it doesn't line wrap
dragonwriter 9y ago
> Also why does HN not support basic formatting? It does, for a suitable basic definition of “basic” (it supports italics and preformatted monospace code blocks). I think it's largely an aesthetic preference to focus on text content rather than distracting formatting that results in not supporting more. Aside from a decent formatting option for distinguishing block quotes, I don't really see any more formatting as being desirable, and even that is more to avoid people being tempted into using code blocks for blockquotes than because there aren't tolerable ways to present them without special formatting.

kasey_junk 9y ago

It’s a very common concern here in the US and I find it very strange. Lots and lots of people work in jobs where salary is either public or easily determined. Further discussing pay is one of the few bedrock employee protections we have here. Yet it’s a taboo subject. If I were a more suspicious person I’d chalk it up to a cabal of employers trying to suppress wages...

charlesdm 9y ago

The people making a lot above average (because they negotiated well) generally don't want to share this publicly, because others will realise they are then being underpaid. As an example: would you tell a colleague "on the same level" as you that you're making $300k, when he is making $50 or $100k? That's either 1) an excellent way to get fired, because now everyone wants $300k, or 2) an excellent way to piss off your colleagues. They will start looking for a new gig immediately.

fnbr 9y ago
It is technically illegal to fire you for discussing this, at least in the US. I know at Google there's supposedly a big internal salary sharing doc started by Erica Baker, and she wasn't fired for it (although her manager was supposedly quite unhappy).
- noitsnot 9y ago
  People come and go based on technicalities at this company all the time. It's really easy.
- expertentipp 9y ago
  > It is technically illegal to fire you for discussing this, at least in the US. Funny, I know of American corporation which operates low cost center over here while paying 30-40% of American salaries and forbidding the employee from sharing its salary for 10 years (sic!) in the employment contract.
  - theorique 9y ago
    If "over here" is outside of the US, then it's in a different legal jurisdiction, and the laws are going to be different.
  - alanmessy 9y ago
    If in the US, it is illegal for them to have that in the employment contract and they could be sued for that. I'm not sure how it works if it's not operating in the US, but if it's a US company, might still apply. My company abides by all US laws because they're headquartered in US, but have offices worldwide. According to this law: https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act https://www.nlrb.gov/resources/national-labor-relations-act employees can talk about things that matter to them, salary being one of them. And the National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) includes pay secrecy language in contracts as illegal, and even if you sign an NDA, it is still your right to talk about your salary. The consequences for violation aren't usually very serious, so companies aren't too worried about violating the law, unfortunately. They usually have to provide back pay to the employee and/or offer the employee their job back (if they were fired). Obama signed an executive order that increased penalties for companies contracting with the government: they can lose their contract. This law doesn't include contractors, ag workers, employees of federal, state, or local gvmt, or those employed by interstate rail and airline companies. It does cover you if you aren't in a union. Violations should be reported to the NLRB and they'll investigate it. Source: https://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/301989789/pay-secrecy-policies-at-work-often-illegal-and-misunderstood https://www.npr.org/2014/04/13/301989789/pay-secrecy-policie... and https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/ https://www.govdocs.com/can-employees-discuss-pay-salaries/

louisswiss 9y ago

As an (hypothetical) employer I now know that, ceteris paribus, I only need to offer you around 65k USD to come and work for me, even if I was prepared to offer you 90k USD. I agree though that we would, on average, be better off if all of us agreed to share salaries publicly.

gokhan 9y ago
If other employees of yours also publicly share what they earn, you won't be able to do that, as you noted. Besides, other employers will see that you under pay and offer him more and you'll need to compete on price or you will use talented employees and left with lemons.
- louisswiss 9y ago
  It's not quite that easy though. Let's assume sharing salaries is common. I see that you make 60k USD and your colleagues are on 70k USD each. As another potential employer, do I assume you are undervalued or just perform worse than your colleagues making 10k USD more? We seem to be caught up in an uncomfortable hybrid world where salaries are sort of related to performance, but not really. If we just chose one way or another, that would sort out a lot of problems immediately.
  - Vinkekatten 9y ago
    I live in a country where income is public information. It´s not really a problem as far as I know - and at any rate it definitely benefits employees.

gambiting 9y ago

Well, for one, my contract explicitly prohibits me from disclosing my salary publicly - I am protected by law to discuss it with my colleagues, but (technically) I cannot post it online. I know in some countries(Sweden) salaries are literally a matter of public record, but that's not the case everywhere.

switch007 9y ago
Is "I earn between $61k and $63k" disclosing your salary?

doktrin 9y ago

> I make around 60k usd in a Scandinavian startup as a programmer with experience I'm still trying to wrap my head around why European developers earn significantly less than virtually all their American counterparts, even in high cost of living areas (like Scandinavia) I do understand you specified you work for a startup, but even at one of the many established regional consultancies dev salaries tend to cap out at around $90K IME. Is it the lack of lucrative VC funding, the prevailing sense of egalitarianism at all costs, the abundance of (comparatively) well paid middle managers, all of the above or something else entirely? edit : changed wording

busterarm 9y ago
It's not universal. My friend started off his career in Denmark making pretty standard US tech salaries. The tax rates are much higher there too.
- doktrin 9y ago
  > It's not universal. My friend started off his career in Denmark making pretty standard US tech salaries. That's fair, and I'm aware there are always outliers. For added reference, starting tech salaries in Oslo, Norway are around $50k (cost of living comparable to Seattle or DC). Perhaps more importantly, there's much less upward potential - senior devs rarely earn 6 figures USD unless they're freelancing.
rowyourboat 9y ago
> why European developers appear to be content with earning significantly less than virtually all their American counterparts It's what the market pays. If I say I want $120k, I won't get a job.
- doktrin 9y ago
  > If I say I want $120k, I won't get a job. I do actually know devs who make this much with ~5 years of experience, but they made the conscious decision to forego the large consultancies for smaller shops with less overhead. One observation I made in Scandinavia is that the billable rate for tech professionals (including designers) appears to be more or less static. Customers pay roughly the same hourly rate regardless of whether a dev / designer has 2 or 20 years experience, so the most consistent path to higher compensation is to drop layers of support / management (with freelance being the highest).